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Gear Talk => Canon General => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on January 23, 2012, 12:03:54 PM

Title: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Canon Rumors on January 23, 2012, 12:03:54 PM
New Sensor Patent Canon has published a back illuminated sensor patent for APS-C and Full Frame sensors. Back Illuminated Sensors allow for a more effective use of pixel area.

Patent Publication No. 2012-15275

Back-illuminated imaging device

Canon’s patented

Source: [NL] via [EG]

cr

Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: risto_0 on January 23, 2012, 12:13:31 PM
at what time point the patents are published? once when the technology ready on paper or once is is physically ready? If the last one is correct, then, assuming canon 5dmk3 comes out in march, would it be stupid to expect that it has that new back-illuminated sensor?
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Peerke on January 23, 2012, 12:25:19 PM
Well, there go the sales on the 1dx ;). Except for the pro's of course to shoot the olympics and the European championship soccer.

If Canon would bring out the 5d3 without this sensor, that would give us luckely the chance of ranting over here why the 5d3 doesn't have a back illuminated sensor. Yes, please  ;D.
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Britman on January 23, 2012, 12:27:29 PM
 I always though patents where applied for once you had a working prototype? This increases the chance it'll get granted.
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 23, 2012, 12:34:45 PM
at what time point the patents are published? once when the technology ready on paper or once is is physically ready?

Patents are published 18 months after the priority date of the patent application.  Companies generally time their patent applications carefully - too early and they risk having their invention/technology disclosed well before they have a product ready (assuming a product is the intention - many times, it isn't), too late and they risk being beaten to the punch with 'prior art' (filing the application is the cut-off date for prior art being prior).
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 23, 2012, 12:38:26 PM
Well, there go the sales on the 1dx ;).

Yep, just like everyone stopped buying 1D IV's after Canon announced their 120 MP APS-H sensor...   ::)
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Peerke on January 23, 2012, 12:42:59 PM
Well, there go the sales on the 1dx ;).

Yep, just like everyone stopped buying 1D IV's after Canon announced their 120 MP APS-H sensor...   ::)


Of course  ;D
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 23, 2012, 12:48:45 PM
Is it written anywhere that the 1DX isn't using this technology?

Nor is it written that the 1D X doesn't use clairvoyance technology to pre-focus exactly where the action will take place.  If it had a BSI sensor, Canon's marketing department would make sure everyone from the president of the USA to the rats in the sewers of Calcutta knew about it...
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Jan on January 23, 2012, 01:01:41 PM
Hum... strange. As far as I understood BIS it shouldn't be a big anhancement when applied to a large area sensor such as APS-C or even FF... :o
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: traveller on January 23, 2012, 01:32:01 PM
You fools! Can't you see that this means that the 1D XXX is due for release this year  ;)
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Peerke on January 23, 2012, 01:38:39 PM
You fools! Can't you see that this means that the 1D XXX is due for release this year  ;)

Yes we can  8)
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: NotABunny on January 23, 2012, 01:38:45 PM
The 1DX announcement said that its sensor is using a super-efficient diode, so I gather if it had BSI, they would have said so.
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: kubelik on January 23, 2012, 01:43:31 PM
Is it written anywhere that the 1DX isn't using this technology?

Nor is it written that the 1D X doesn't use clairvoyance technology to pre-focus exactly where the action will take place.  If it had a BSI sensor, Canon's marketing department would make sure everyone from the president of the USA to the rats in the sewers of Calcutta knew about it...

Does Canon trumpet any particular patents when the release a new lens that is covered by them?

Or does any other camera manufacturer?

Given all of the patents regarding specific technologies in cameras, do any of them get trumpeted?

What do you think is more important for marketing: BSI or how many MP?

What do you think the average Joe on the street that walks into a camera store cares about?

actually Canon does trumpet newly patented lens ideas on lenses all the time.  remember the big deal they made over Hybrid Image Stabilization (H-IS) on the then-new 100 L Macro.  and it's good business to play up all the new technology in whatever item you're selling, it's been demonstrated that consumers are (wrongly) easily impressed by the quantity, not quality, of features and specifications.  between two identical items put up for sale, consumers will more often choose the one that has a longer specification list posted.

I'm fairly sure if BSI on large sensors were being employed by Canon on the 1DX, they would be talking about it (especially what with all the white papers they've posted so far).  I don't think this will stop people from purchasing the 1DX any more than the future 5DIII has stopped people from purchasing the real, current 5DII.
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: K-amps on January 23, 2012, 01:48:26 PM
Our Friends at Sony are keeping busy too...

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/sony-layered-cmos/#continued

from the looks of it, seems like it should enable higher SN rations with more of the Die soaking up photons. Will Sony be able to use this in APS-C / FF soon? Our Nikonian friends would also be excited.
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: EYEONE on January 23, 2012, 02:01:36 PM
Our Friends at Sony are keeping busy too...

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/sony-layered-cmos/#continued

from the looks of it, seems like it should enable higher SN rations with more of the Die soaking up photons. Will Sony be able to use this in APS-C / FF soon? Our Nikonian friends would also be excited.

Great, in 10 years will be overwhelmed with way overdone HDR movies in theaters. Probably directed by Michael Bay...
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: keithfullermusic on January 23, 2012, 02:04:45 PM
Great, in 10 years will be overwhelmed with way overdone HDR movies in theaters. Probably directed by Michael Bay...

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: K-amps on January 23, 2012, 02:34:12 PM
Our Friends at Sony are keeping busy too...

http://www.engadget.com/2012/01/23/sony-layered-cmos/#continued

from the looks of it, seems like it should enable higher SN rations with more of the Die soaking up photons. Will Sony be able to use this in APS-C / FF soon? Our Nikonian friends would also be excited.

Great, in 10 years will be overwhelmed with way overdone HDR movies in theaters. Probably directed by Michael Bay...

I take it you do not own a collection of Optimus Prime baseball caps.  ;)
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Neeneko on January 23, 2012, 02:53:22 PM
As someone that has been responsible for patent applications being made and approved by the USPTO, I can tell you that no, a working prototype is not required.

Working prototype?  They do not even require working physics ^_^

On a serious note, I am actually kinda enthusiastic about this.  I often work outside the visible range, and backlit sensors have generally done very well in this domain, esp in UV. A FF backlit sensor with good UV performance would be great for me.
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Jan on January 23, 2012, 04:25:16 PM
Hum... strange. As far as I understood BIS it shouldn't be a big anhancement when applied to a large area sensor such as APS-C or even FF... :o

now the question we have to answer is..... how much do you understand?   :D

Hehe. We'll find out when the first large area BSI sensors are there... :)
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Fperez on January 23, 2012, 05:44:18 PM
I don't think these sensors will go inside of 1DX, 5D MarkIII or 7D Mark II or equivalent substitutes but maybe it is possible that they'll implement this technology into their possible new mirrorless camera series, because let's be honest, I do think that Canon "kind of have to" get into the mirrorless market, and hopefully in a professional manner (with proper bodies, don't forget ergonomics) that is not especially aimed to the consumer market; maybe also a consumer series will fit into the line.
I think it's true that mirror DSLRs can die some day, but only when there are really good alternatives for professionals. A professional mirrorless camera body is possible and I hope Canon will make it true, keeping their EF line available on them. (Sorry for getting a little off-topic ;D )
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: whatta on January 30, 2012, 04:10:35 AM
sony just announced some backlit sensor compacts..

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/01/30/Sony_DSC-TX200V_DSC-WX70_DSC-WX50 (http://www.dpreview.com/news/2012/01/30/Sony_DSC-TX200V_DSC-WX70_DSC-WX50)

this part is interesting too:

"In its description of the TX200V's fast AF, Sony suggests that the camera compares out-of-focus images to determine which direction to move the lens to achieve focus, avoiding the camera scanning for focus in the wrong direction. This sounds a lot like phase-detection to us but we're still chasing for more information."
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Michael_pfh on January 30, 2012, 05:19:32 AM
Well, there go the sales on the 1dx ;).

Yep, just like everyone stopped buying 1D IV's after Canon announced their 120 MP APS-H sensor...   ::)


Of course  ;D

Oh no! I did miss that announcement! Otherwise I would never have bought my 1D4...
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on January 30, 2012, 01:48:11 PM
Getting higher iso sensors at this point in a mature sensor industry requires innovation.  I would expect to see backlit large sensors at some point in the future to get that additional 1/2 stop of sensitivity. 
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: dr croubie on January 31, 2012, 06:32:47 PM
What do you think the average Joe on the street that walks into a camera store cares about?
actually Canon does trumpet newly patented lens ideas on lenses all the time.  remember the big deal they made over Hybrid Image Stabilization (H-IS) on the then-new 100 L Macro.  and it's good business to play up all the new technology in whatever item you're selling, it's been demonstrated that consumers are (wrongly) easily impressed by the quantity, not quality, of features and specifications.  between two identical items put up for sale, consumers will more often choose the one that has a longer specification list posted.

So that's why tamron lenses come with a 20-30 character long string after each lens?

And don't forget DO, UD, Fluorite, SC, SSC, MC, and the II added to really, really minor updates (i'm looking at you, EFs 18-55 IS II).
I don't care how many UD or Fluorite elements I have in a lens, but if I know lens A is sharper, faster, shorter, and lighter than lens B, and costs a bit more, it's kinda nice to know that more Fluorite elements is probably the reason for it. Then any future lens that comes out touting more Fluorite elements can be presumed to be better than without. Still, it's worth waiting for the reviews to confirm that's the case.
But if lens C comes out with a new or controversial feature, some people steer away as a matter of course, and it may take a few reviews for them to get swayed back (like if a new DO lens comes with non-glowing/swirly bokeh, noone's going to believe it until they see it).
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: Diko on January 21, 2013, 09:48:08 AM
Had anyone heard a update on this patent?

So far AFAIK it is not implemented otherwise as already commented everyone would have heard about it.

On the WIKI article it i stated that SONY is already using:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-illuminated_sensor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back-illuminated_sensor)

Stacked CMOS
In January 2012, Sony developed the back-side illuminated sensor further with Stacked CMOS, where the supporting circuitry is moved below the active pixel section, giving another 30% improvement to light capturing capability.[10] This was commercialized by Sony in August 2012 as Exmor RS with resolutions of 13 and 8 effective megapixels.[11] Products are expected in 2013.


I wonder what happens with Canon?
So far as we also know from http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/10/is-canon-eos-1s-the-name-cr1/ (http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/10/is-canon-eos-1s-the-name-cr1/):

There was also another mention of superior low ISO performance from the sensor. New technology will be introduced in this camera and will set the stage for sensor development over the next 2-3 years.

But does it mean that Canon glass owners have to wait until 2015 until they get a body for mortals with implemented low-light technology for less than $3k?

Additional info on that is also in article: http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/07/canon-3-layer-sensor-foveon-type-patent/ (http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/07/canon-3-layer-sensor-foveon-type-patent/)

And yet nothing new in late 2012 or 2013...

What do you think. Any new info? Speculations?
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: MK5GTI on January 21, 2013, 10:55:01 AM
i believe Sony only implement it on their P&S for now? not on any of their APSC yet.

Looks like if Canon needs to advance their APSC sensor, this is the right move?
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: sandymandy on January 21, 2013, 11:44:30 AM
Im not smart. Whats the difference if we had such a sensor technology already used today? Please tell me in easy to understand words.
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: dr croubie on January 21, 2013, 03:47:00 PM
Im not smart. Whats the difference if we had such a sensor technology already used today? Please tell me in easy to understand words.

Sensors have pixels. (well, photosites, but pixels is easier to type).
Pixels are little squares on a piece of silicon.
Between these pixels are little wires so all the colours can come off the chip.
So pixels don't take up the entire size of the chip.
But in 'backside' illumination, pixels take up the entire one side of the chip.
The wiring is on the other side of the chip.
So, no wiring between pixels means more space for pixels, means bigger pixels.
Bigger pixels means more DR at low-ISO, and less noise at higher-ISO (with everything else the same, in Sony' Exmore's case it's not the same, they're also much better because other bits of the circuit are also better, and why Sonikon have way better DR at low ISO than canon).

And yes, it's only in P&S for now, the smaller the sensor the more difference this technology makes. But it will make *some* difference at FF, and it's the way of the future (just don't hold your breath).
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: gmrza on January 21, 2013, 05:56:11 PM
Getting higher iso sensors at this point in a mature sensor industry requires innovation.  I would expect to see backlit large sensors at some point in the future to get that additional 1/2 stop of sensitivity.

I am wondering if this is starting to give some pointers as to what we will see in Canon's next crop of APS-C sensors.  I have a funny feeling we may see new technology from Canon in APS-C before it hits full frame - this would mainly be a commercial measure to keep to more cost effective (i.e. cheaper technology) for full frame, and then mature the newer tech in the lower end (APS-C).

regarding another poster's comment - I don't see Canon using different sensor technology in APS-C DSLRs and EOS-M - they will probably use the same sensors, with DSLRs using in-sensor phase detection AF during live view.
Title: Re: Patent: Large Back Illuminated Sensor
Post by: sandymandy on January 22, 2013, 03:05:35 PM
More DR and less noise sounds nice, thanks for explaining it to me. Would it be a big difference? 1/2 stop sensitivity sounds not much to me. Will i even notice it in my photos ?