canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon-F1 on January 26, 2012, 08:42:29 AM

Title: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Canon-F1 on January 26, 2012, 08:42:29 AM
im just thinking here....

canon said it will not abandon the APS-H sensor format.

would it make sense for canon to put an APS-H sensor in the 7D MK2?

why or why not? what do you think?

i think what speaks against it is EF-S lenses....
but on the other side it would be a nice seperation from the XXD models.

the 70D could have better AF, better body construction etc.  (*) and the 7D MK2 would still have some edge.


(*)
"better" then the 60D, close to the 7D
 
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 26, 2012, 09:00:10 AM
No, it won't happen.  They could certainly come out with a new line in the xD range, better than the 7D, and using an APS-H sensor.  7D body style, better AF, and priced in the $3K range. But as you say, the EF-S compatibility issue will preclude a sensor format change in the 7-series
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: smirkypants on January 26, 2012, 09:25:46 AM
If they changed the sensor in the 7D, they wouldn't call it a 7D. It would be too confusing. If they took a 7D and plunked in an H, they'd call is something else. It would be a great camera, but it would be probably called a 3Dx, 4Dx or 6Dx.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Canon-F1 on January 26, 2012, 09:30:08 AM
the 1D line had two different sensor formats.

maybe they could call it 7Ds. ;)


i dont know but for me there is something missing in the 1600-2000 euro zone.
ok the 5D MK2 (body only) is ~1699 euros here.... but it´s near it´s end of life and the new MK3 will cost much more.
a 7D MK2 will cost around 1400 euro i guess.

enough room for a FF or APS-H camera in the 1600-2000 euro range.. not?
if canon fears that it will cannibalize the 5D MK3 sales, they could cripple the video features (if you ask me they could get rid of it completely).

so lets not call it 7D.... lets say it will be a "7D body like" but with an APS-H sensor... whatever name it will have.

could the leaked photos show such a camera?

again im just playing with thoughts.... :)

 
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: smirkypants on January 26, 2012, 09:37:30 AM
the 1D line had two different sensor formats.

maybe they could call it 7Ds. ;)
The 1D line is the top of the line and any camera that Canon wants to list as Flagship will get that number. Anyone who knows enough about cameras to buy anything in that line will know what he or she is getting. Anything that isn't a flagship will be differentiated so as to avoid confusion. There is absolutely no reason to confuse people by changing the sensor in an existing line. It makes no sense from a marketing perspective.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Axilrod on January 26, 2012, 09:39:36 AM
the 1D line had two different sensor formats.

maybe they could call it 7Ds. ;)

Well considering they just merged the 1-series cameras it doesn't seem likely that they would branch out the 7D.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Axilrod on January 26, 2012, 09:41:24 AM
the 1D line had two different sensor formats.

maybe they could call it 7Ds. ;)
The 1D line is the top of the line and any camera that Canon wants to list as Flagship will get that number. Anyone who knows enough about cameras to buy anything in that line will know what he or she is getting. Anything that isn't a flagship will be differentiated so as to avoid confusion. There is absolutely no reason to confuse people by changing the sensor in an existing line. It makes no sense from a marketing perspective.

Agreed 100%.  Plus there is already a 7DSV (http://www.photographybay.com/2010/08/17/canon-eos-7dsv-studio-version-announced/), which would make it incredibly confusing. 
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Axilrod on January 26, 2012, 09:45:19 AM
im just thinking here....

canon said it will not abandon the APS-H sensor format.

would it make sense for canon to put an APS-H sensor in the 7D MK2?

why or why not? what do you think?

i think what speaks against it is EF-S lenses....
but on the other side it would be a nice seperation from the XXD models.

the 70D could have better AF, better body construction etc. and the 7D MK2 would still have some edge.

This makes no sense, the 7D has one of the best autofocus systems out of any Canon camera right now, and the 60D AF is definitely inferior.  You're saying that in one generation that the 7D will improve the AF barely any and the 70D will somehow catch up and pass the 7D?

And if the 70D had better AF and better body construction, how would a 7DII with APS-H have an edge over it?  If you're a wildlife/sports photographer it's not an edge at all.  It just doesn't make sense, right now 7D > 60D, so if they both get upgraded 7DII > 70D.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: AprilForever on January 26, 2012, 09:47:41 AM
im just thinking here....

canon said it will not abandon the APS-H sensor format.

would it make sense for canon to put an APS-H sensor in the 7D MK2?

why or why not? what do you think?

i think what speaks against it is EF-S lenses....
but on the other side it would be a nice seperation from the XXD models.

the 70D could have better AF, better body construction etc. and the 7D MK2 would still have some edge.

This makes no sense, the 7D has one of the best autofocus systems out of any Canon camera right now, and the 60D AF is definitely inferior.  You're saying that in one generation that the 7D will improve the AF barely any and the 70D will somehow catch up and pass the 7D?

And if the 70D had better AF and better body construction, how would a 7DII with APS-C have an edge over it?  If you're a wildlife/sports photographer it's not an edge at all. 


The 7D has a mighty edge precisely because of it's crop. 1.6 is a lot more reach than 1!
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Canon-F1 on January 26, 2012, 09:50:05 AM
This makes no sense, the 7D has one of the best autofocus systems out of any Canon camera right now, and the 60D AF is definitely inferior.  You're saying that in one generation that the 7D will improve the AF barely any and the 70D will somehow catch up and pass the 7D?

i say nothing like that.. read again i added something to make it more clear.

the 70D could have better AF then their predecessor (aka 60D), nearly as good as the 7D, with an APS-H sensor in the 7D MK2 there would be still enough separation in the lineup. that is what i meant.



Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Gothmoth on January 26, 2012, 09:59:03 AM
The 1D line is the top of the line and any camera that Canon wants to list as Flagship will get that number. Anyone who knows enough about cameras to buy anything in that line will know what he or she is getting.

so rebel buyers are not only cheap but also dumb?   ;)   ;D

Quote
Anything that isn't a flagship will be differentiated so as to avoid confusion. There is absolutely no reason to confuse people by changing the sensor in an existing line. It makes no sense from a marketing perspective.

let´s not focus on the name.. let´s focus on the IDEA.  ;)

a 7D like camera with an APS-H sensor for 1899 euro.
im pretty sure i would sell them.  :D
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Axilrod on January 26, 2012, 10:06:15 AM
im just thinking here....

canon said it will not abandon the APS-H sensor format.

would it make sense for canon to put an APS-H sensor in the 7D MK2?

why or why not? what do you think?

i think what speaks against it is EF-S lenses....
but on the other side it would be a nice seperation from the XXD models.

the 70D could have better AF, better body construction etc. and the 7D MK2 would still have some edge.

This makes no sense, the 7D has one of the best autofocus systems out of any Canon camera right now, and the 60D AF is definitely inferior.  You're saying that in one generation that the 7D will improve the AF barely any and the 70D will somehow catch up and pass the 7D?

And if the 70D had better AF and better body construction, how would a 7DII with APS-C have an edge over it?  If you're a wildlife/sports photographer it's not an edge at all. 


The 7D has a mighty edge precisely because of it's crop. 1.6 is a lot more reach than 1!

I meant APS-H
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Axilrod on January 26, 2012, 10:09:40 AM
Edit: Misunderstanding, carry on.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: EYEONE on January 26, 2012, 10:11:49 AM
im just thinking here....

canon said it will not abandon the APS-H sensor format.

would it make sense for canon to put an APS-H sensor in the 7D MK2?

why or why not? what do you think?

i think what speaks against it is EF-S lenses....
but on the other side it would be a nice seperation from the XXD models.

the 70D could have better AF, better body construction etc. and the 7D MK2 would still have some edge.

This makes no sense, the 7D has one of the best autofocus systems out of any Canon camera right now, and the 60D AF is definitely inferior.  You're saying that in one generation that the 7D will improve the AF barely any and the 70D will somehow catch up and pass the 7D?

And if the 70D had better AF and better body construction, how would a 7DII with APS-H have an edge over it?  If you're a wildlife/sports photographer it's not an edge at all.  It just doesn't make sense, right now 7D > 60D, so if they both get upgraded 7DII > 70D.

Actually it makes good sense. I've said it before but if Canon were to give the 7DII the APS-H sensor the would be moving it further up the scale and could beef up the 70D to take it's place. In fact, I think the only reason I'd buy a 7DII is if it had a APS-H in it. Otherwise, I'll pass.

But, I do tire of this topic. It's simply not going to happen. Ever. Not in the 7DII anyway.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Axilrod on January 26, 2012, 10:24:24 AM
Don't talk to me like I'm a F______ idiot that misunderstood your post, you said this:
"the 70D could have better AF, better body construction etc. and the 7D MK2 would still have some edge.

he said BETTER yes.
but he said not BETTER then WHAT, so BETTER watch your tone.

Listen Mr. Internet police, he said the 70D could have better AF, better body construction etc. and the 7DII would still have an edge.  How does that not make it sound like he is comparing the two?
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Gothmoth on January 26, 2012, 10:37:34 AM
Whether the 7D mk II should be ASP-C or ASP-H has been hotly debated on this forum for months now; it has gotten me probably 35/40 of my smites, and generated pages and pages on the threads.

As I have said many times, the 7D is what it is precisely because it is a high MP crop sensor camera at an affordable price. Not everyone can afford a 1DIV, and not everyone would want one even if they can afford it. The ASP-H sensor loses a little reach, and has no lenses as wide as either fullframe or ASP-C. I do not want an ASP-H 7D, nor do many people here.

what is ASP?    ;)

i get often ask if there is a cheaper APS-H model. 
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: EYEONE on January 26, 2012, 10:52:31 AM


what is ASP?    ;)


Haha, you know, I constantly forget if it's ASP or APS. I guess I have mild dyslexia. I have to look it up before I type a message. :) 
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: unfocused on January 26, 2012, 11:12:01 AM
Quote
canon said it will not abandon the APS-H sensor format.

I'd like to see that statement. All I am aware of are some vague statements about keeping their options open and similar non-denial denials.

Here's the thing: Canon only made one model with APS-H. Canon never spent a penny on designing a single lens for APS-H. No other manufacturer offers APS-H.

The one thing Canon was very clear about was that the 1Dx would replace both the 1D and 1Ds. The 1D was their newest high-end body at the time and they had no reason to announce it's demise if they had any thought of retaining the format. But they made a conscious choice to declare the 1Dx as the replacement for both bodies.

APS-H is the Betamax of sensors. The technology may be superior, but the market didn't support it.

I think Canon was only too glad to come up with an excuse to abandon it. And, of course, they aren't going to alienate APS-H fans by an outright declaration that it's dead and they probably are truly keeping their options open. I would put the chances of a new APS-H camera just slightly greater than the chance of finding Bigfoot riding a unicorn.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Gothmoth on January 26, 2012, 11:19:01 AM
Quote
Canon has already stated that they do not intend to drop the APS-H format sensor, what somehow is contrary to general assumption after the launch of the EOS-1D X. In fact, looking back to August 2010, they announced the development of an APS-H size sensor with an image resolution of approximately 120 megapixels (13,280 x 9,184 pixels), the world's highest level of resolution for its size.  The first was a 50 million sensor made sometime before. By Canon. Both APS-H.

i read it on many websites but have no original canon source.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: TexPhoto on January 26, 2012, 11:33:32 AM
Quote
canon said it will not abandon the APS-H sensor format.

I'd like to see that statement. All I am aware of are some vague statements about keeping their options open and similar non-denial denials.

Here's the thing: Canon only made one model with APS-H. Canon never spent a penny on designing a single lens for APS-H. No other manufacturer offers APS-H.

The one thing Canon was very clear about was that the 1Dx would replace both the 1D and 1Ds. The 1D was their newest high-end body at the time and they had no reason to announce it's demise if they had any thought of retaining the format. But they made a conscious choice to declare the 1Dx as the replacement for both bodies.

APS-H is the Betamax of sensors. The technology may be superior, but the market didn't support it.

I think Canon was only too glad to come up with an excuse to abandon it. And, of course, they aren't going to alienate APS-H fans by an outright declaration that it's dead and they probably are truly keeping their options open. I would put the chances of a new APS-H camera just slightly greater than the chance of finding Bigfoot riding a unicorn.

I have to agree with this.  I think we have seen the last of APS-H, but we might see the 1 Mark IV sell for a while after the 1DX goes on sale.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Gothmoth on January 26, 2012, 11:54:47 AM
chuck westfall said canon is not dropping the APS-H format.

http://www.dougbrownphotography.com/2011/10/24/chuck-westfall-on-the-canon-eos-1d-x/

but that maybe only means they use it for video cams....
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 26, 2012, 12:26:07 PM
chuck westfall said canon is not dropping the APS-H format.

http://www.dougbrownphotography.com/2011/10/24/chuck-westfall-on-the-canon-eos-1d-x/

but that maybe only means they use it for video cams....

That's in line with what unfocused stated.  "The 1.3 crop sensor is not being killed off.  Canon is keeping all options open for future products."  That's 'corporate speak' for indefinite hold.  At my company, we call it 'putting it in the hopper' but it amounts to the same thing.  We did a lot of R&D on it, we don't want to send the message that it was wasted effort, so let's 'keep our options open'.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Gothmoth on January 26, 2012, 12:40:19 PM

That's in line with what unfocused stated.  "The 1.3 crop sensor is not being killed off.  Canon is keeping all options open for future products."  That's 'corporate speak' for indefinite hold.  At my company, we call it 'putting it in the hopper' but it amounts to the same thing.  We did a lot of R&D on it, we don't want to send the message that it was wasted effort, so let's 'keep our options open'.

yep that´s possible.

i only wonder why they put so much effort in R&D of an 120 MP APS-H sensor?
why did they spend the R&D resources on APS-H and not FF or APS-C?

i mean... i wondered in late 2010 already why they used the APS-H format and not FF.
 
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: moreorless on January 26, 2012, 12:42:04 PM
That's in line with what unfocused stated.  "The 1.3 crop sensor is not being killed off.  Canon is keeping all options open for future products."  That's 'corporate speak' for indefinite hold.  At my company, we call it 'putting it in the hopper' but it amounts to the same thing.  We did a lot of R&D on it, we don't want to send the message that it was wasted effort, so let's 'keep our options open'.

I'm guessing "on hold unless 1DX/7D mk2 sales disapoint and we see a real demand for it".

One other use for it to me seems to be for a mirrorless system, large enough to offer clear IQ/DOF advanatge over rival systems but not so far as to make the system overly bulky.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: mjbehnke on January 26, 2012, 12:44:47 PM
I very much doubt they will change the sensor format of an existing camera. I think any current Aps-C body will continue to be an Aps-C body. If they ever make another Aps-H camera, it will be a new line. I tihnk one reason is that anybody with a current 7D that is using EF-S lenses would have to sell them all, as an Aps-H does not support that lens.

Just my III cents worth.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 26, 2012, 12:45:42 PM
i only wonder why they put so much effort in R&D of an 120 MP APS-H sensor?
why did they spend the R&D resources on APS-H and not FF or APS-C?

Perhaps because while there are other FF and APS-C sensors, Canon was the only one using APS-H - therefore, Canon's claim to having the only 120 MP APS-H sensor will likely stand unchallenged.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: CatfishSoupFTW on January 26, 2012, 01:23:43 PM
an APS-H would be nice, but the price would for sure go up. i think they would also upgrade the sensor too instead of the older aps-H. and i mean. 1.6 vs 1.3 is sort of a big difference at the same time it isnt i feel.

aps- c 200mm x 1.6 = 320
aps-h 200 x 1.3 = 260

but i mean its prob worth more of a jump from aps-c to ff. actually wouldnt mind whichever. an FF 7D would be cool but then that will get expensive. maybe its too much for canon to balance all 3 sensors? who knows.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on January 26, 2012, 01:49:50 PM
Kodak, not Canon made the first APS-H sensors in the early 90's.  It certainly could have had to do with the production capability of the equipment.  It was the standard until Canon came up with a FF sensor.

I liked the APS-H format, and would consider a new APS-H body.  I don't expect to see one, but, if the 1DX falls flat, they might bring it to life again, or, a prosumer body with the larger sensor is also a possibility, Maybe a 7DH?

The one weakness of the APS-H for all around use is the lack of wide lenses.  You really need 12mm to get ultra wide, but the 16-35mm is fine for most uses.  The 14mm prime is priced out of my reach.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: traveller on January 26, 2012, 01:55:12 PM
I think that the main reason they won't be putting an APS-H sensor in a non-1D line camera is that they don't want to risk 1DIV users trading down due to their loss of pixels on target in the 1D X.  If they put a 24MP APS-H sensor in a 7D-esque body and charged a 5D MkII price for it, there might be some who'd be tempted. 

My money for the 7D replacement would be on sort of 'mini-1DX', where you'd get most of its features except for the full frame sensor.  Canon might figure that this would keep the birders happy as a second or third body next to their 1D X body(ies).  I bet that both Canon and Nikon will be hoping to add perceived value to this tier of cameras to keep their selling price higher [note how quick the prices for the D300(s) and 7D fell once Nikon lost their 'monopoly' in this price bracket].  This would sit well with the improved specifications of the D7000 and allow Canon to up the specs (and the list price) of the 70D. 
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: unfocused on January 26, 2012, 02:15:16 PM
i only wonder why they put so much effort in R&D of an 120 MP APS-H sensor?
why did they spend the R&D resources on APS-H and not FF or APS-C?

Perhaps because while there are other FF and APS-C sensors, Canon was the only one using APS-H - therefore, Canon's claim to having the only 120 MP APS-H sensor will likely stand unchallenged.

One explanation that always seemed logical to me was law enforcement and security cameras. High resolution combined with low-light sensitivity would greatly improve the success rate when the cameras snap a shot of your license plate as you roll through a stop light. APS-H might be the perfect tool for these cameras.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: AprilForever on January 26, 2012, 04:42:49 PM
I think that the main reason they won't be putting an APS-H sensor in a non-1D line camera is that they don't want to risk 1DIV users trading down due to their loss of pixels on target in the 1D X.  If they put a 24MP APS-H sensor in a 7D-esque body and charged a 5D MkII price for it, there might be some who'd be tempted. 

Why does everyone need to keep making up excuses?

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Consider that it is the underlying sensor technology that is important, not the sensor size. Thus if they can manufacture an APS-H sensor at 16MP then they can build a FF sensor at 27MP with close to the same characteristics. (A 27MP full frame sensor will deliver a 1.3 crop that is 16MP.)

Exactly. You da man, Dilbert!
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 26, 2012, 05:53:10 PM
The APS-H sensor is a misfit

I am glad to have a misfit in my camera. You will find that the owners of misfits will be mighty releuctant to move away to non misfits. The crop maybe only 1.3 but we manage as we also manage with AF at f/8 - and we get a real pro AF system unlike the wonderful APS-C owners.

Maybe a 27mps ff is the way ahead - but that is not coming in the 1 series until at least the 1DXII

I am sure we will manage until nirvana arrives  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: juwi on January 26, 2012, 07:25:39 PM

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Also developing chips is expensive. Refitting a chip design to fit another die size is expensive and probably most important: Running production for a chip is expensive. For different sensor sizes, different equipment is required, which takes away more precious space in fabs limiting overall capacity and driving up costs. This is probalby the number one reason for the 1Dx being full frame only. While in the Premium they saw these costs justifyable through other means, like lens sales and the prestige, it really isn't for the 7D line.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: iP337 on January 26, 2012, 07:53:56 PM
Heh, I posted this same question in another thread at the same time.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2975.msg63304.html#msg63304

I thought it would be interesting if Canon made a 16:9 APS-H sensor, since back in the film days APS-H (known as APS-High Definition) was 16:9 for landscape photography instead of 3:2. If they did make this, then the HDMI out with a 16:9 sensor wouldn’t have those pillar bars or crop marks that the current 7D’s HDMI out has due to it’s 3:2 sensor, this could be the “clean” HDMI out camera we’ve been waiting for!  Nikon’s already doing a clean HDMI out with the D4, Canon has to do something and the current 7D almost already has it. (Though I was just reading that the D4 might have video issues at the sensor level even before compression; http://www.eoshd.com/content/6961/why-does-nikon-think-this-is-acceptable-video-quality-on-a-6000-flagship-dslr )

I always liked 16:9 photos, I had a Lumix LX1 and LX2 with a 16:9 sensor that not only cut into video easily but also displayed as nice wallpapers on computers or slideshows on TVs.  Of course I could always crop a 1.78 in post but my point is I don't mind 16:9 native photos, and they might help simulate that wide feeling someone complained the current 1.3 crop factor was lacking.  Come on Canon... GH2 did it! lol

I know it won't happend but I'm a dreamer, lol  :)
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: wickidwombat on January 26, 2012, 08:26:41 PM
I think that the main reason they won't be putting an APS-H sensor in a non-1D line camera is that they don't want to risk 1DIV users trading down due to their loss of pixels on target in the 1D X.  If they put a 24MP APS-H sensor in a 7D-esque body and charged a 5D MkII price for it, there might be some who'd be tempted. 


Sorry but this makes NO sense, canon have already sold the 1d4s and made their money they dont give a damn what happens to used prices. in fact they would love for all the 1d4 users to trade down. more sales for them!
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: iP337 on January 26, 2012, 08:43:35 PM

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Also developing chips is expensive. Refitting a chip design to fit another die size is expensive and probably most important: Running production for a chip is expensive. For different sensor sizes, different equipment is required, which takes away more precious space in fabs limiting overall capacity and driving up costs. This is probalby the number one reason for the 1Dx being full frame only. While in the Premium they saw these costs justifyable through other means, like lens sales and the prestige, it really isn't for the 7D line.

Though I doubt Canon would, I assume they could easily crop a 30.2×16.7mm APS-H area from the 18Mp 36x24mm sensor giving it a lower effective Mp count with a 1.3ish crop.  Come on Canon ...D4 and GH2 does it! lol

Tech manufacturing companies do stuff like this all the time; underclocking CPUs, cutting bit rates or disabling features to create a new but lesser product from the same production line to meet consumer demand. However I just don't think there's much demand for APS-H.

But if they do then Magic Lantern can re-enable the deactivated pixels and we can ruin Canon financially! MUAHAHAHA! Well maybe the 1Dx department at least, which would probably take the D4 and A900 with it.  OMG it's the DSLR bubble burst! ...You know it's coming.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: smirkypants on January 26, 2012, 08:59:52 PM
Why does everyone need to keep making up excuses?
The APS-H sensor is a misfit...
People keep making excuses because they want to have 1D4 IQ with a 7D body/price.

But what is missed is that technology marches forward and that you can probably now put 2+ year old H-sensor quality in a today C-sensor. Canon continues to invest in developing crop body lenses and there is a clear differentiation between the APS-C and FF.

Looking forward, there will probably be sensors that allow switching between FF and crop, but we aren't quite there yet. My guess is that it won't be that long, though.

I stand by my previous claim. If a new H sensor camera comes out, I will file down my 1D4 and eat the filings.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: gmrza on January 26, 2012, 09:27:57 PM

And for that I think we have to blame/thank Nikon for putting sophisticated AF, etc, in lower end models.

And if Nikon ends up forcing Canon's hand in the competition game, then "Thank you Nikon!" - In that case, we all win.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: traveller on January 27, 2012, 03:38:23 PM
I think that the main reason they won't be putting an APS-H sensor in a non-1D line camera is that they don't want to risk 1DIV users trading down due to their loss of pixels on target in the 1D X.  If they put a 24MP APS-H sensor in a 7D-esque body and charged a 5D MkII price for it, there might be some who'd be tempted. 


Sorry but this makes NO sense, canon have already sold the 1d4s and made their money they dont give a damn what happens to used prices. in fact they would love for all the 1d4 users to trade down. more sales for them!

Sorry, I obviously wasn't clear enough as you seem to have missed my point: Canon want 1D MkIV owners to buy a 1D X and not be tempted to trade down to the 7D line.  In this happened, they would lose rather a lot of money...
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: TinaLovesCanon on January 27, 2012, 11:38:42 PM
"Simply put, the 120MP APS-H sensor was chest beating."  Those bastards!  They should stop all R&D and just make the same cameras forever.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Joellll on January 28, 2012, 02:59:33 AM
The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Consider that it is the underlying sensor technology that is important, not the sensor size. Thus if they can manufacture an APS-H sensor at 16MP then they can build a FF sensor at 27MP with close to the same characteristics. (A 27MP full frame sensor will deliver a 1.3 crop that is 16MP.)
If Canon ever moves their whole APS-C save the xxxxD line to APS-H, it would definitely set Canon apart from other manufacturers.

Of course, that's a very wild thought, and they would have to introduce a new line of lens, but APS-H is still Canon's Me_Me_Me card. If they ever decide to go for a "bigger sensor, more depth of field, more happy customers" idea, well, the competitors will not be able to catch up immediately.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: kapanak on January 28, 2012, 03:21:46 AM
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 28, 2012, 04:18:19 AM
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

Because it is better than APS-C?

Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 28, 2012, 05:51:40 AM
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

Because it is better than APS-C?

APS-H, itself, is not better than APS-C.

What's different is the technology used to make the sensors.

The problem is that in order to deliver 12MP for both APS-H and APS-C, different technology is required because the pixel density on each sensor is different.

As it stands today, APS-C sensors found in cameras released in the last few months more than equal APS-H sensors found in any of the 1D line of cameras.

However there's no free lunch - if I use a fixed 300mm zoom on an APS-C camera to photograph a subject, I'll get a picture with higher detail than I will than if I used an APS-H camera because there are more pixels in the center of the picture where my subject is.

Lower densty, higher iso, less noise shallower dof, better background blur
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: jimmy156 on January 28, 2012, 06:10:05 AM
The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Consider that it is the underlying sensor technology that is important, not the sensor size. Thus if they can manufacture an APS-H sensor at 16MP then they can build a FF sensor at 27MP with close to the same characteristics. (A 27MP full frame sensor will deliver a 1.3 crop that is 16MP.)
If Canon ever moves their whole APS-C save the xxxxD line to APS-H, it would definitely set Canon apart from other manufacturers.

Of course, that's a very wild thought, and they would have to introduce a new line of lens, but APS-H is still Canon's Me_Me_Me card. If they ever decide to go for a "bigger sensor, more depth of field, more happy customers" idea, well, the competitors will not be able to catch up immediately.

Now there is a thought! If mirrorless CSC cameras take over the bottem end SLR market with M4/3 and APS-C sensors, as some seem to think they might, it would be an exciting (if very bold) move.

However i don't think they would just disregards the ef-s lens line up. Infact i think this would stop them from ever doing it! I for one would be gutted to loose the use of my lovely ef-s 60mm Macro.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 28, 2012, 06:20:13 AM
APS-C cameras released in the last few months being as good as the 1d4?

mmm .... must have my memory checked

If they are then I would expect a modern APS-H to leapfrog them by a long way just a ff will keep ahead of APS-H - bigger sensor more capability. APS-C is getting to the limit of its technical capability which is why you seeing them appear in entry level cameras.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: moreorless on January 28, 2012, 07:34:35 AM
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Indeed I'm not really seeing why people think Canon are likely to radically change the position of the existing 7D and xxD lines in the market rather than introduce a new line.

You look at their previous DSLR history and it seems much more likely that a new higher end line will be introduced which makes marketing sense. Why market the previously enthusiast xxD brand as a semi pro camera to reaplace the 7D? why market the semi pro 7D brand to replace the pro 1D brand?
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 28, 2012, 08:11:00 AM
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Indeed I'm not really seeing why people think Canon are likely to radically change the position of the existing 7D and xxD lines in the market rather than introduce a new line.

You look at their previous DSLR history and it seems much more likely that a new higher end line will be introduced which makes marketing sense. Why market the previously enthusiast xxD brand as a semi pro camera to reaplace the 7D? why market the semi pro 7D brand to replace the pro 1D brand?

I think you are right - the 70D will be as good as the 7D today - so what happens to the 7D? Perhaps they will drop it and make a 3d/6d semi pro sports range with a larger sensor with 18-24mps and top iso performance and 8fps.

Sensors are one area where size does count. There is a finite (financial) limit to how much you can use technology to squeeze out of a fixed size sensor, When it costs more to produce a little one instead of a better, lower tech, big one then the big one will win. PCs give us the clue - the processing power from a single processor has barely increased in the last 5 years - so they have switched to multi cores to provide the extra processing power. The NEX7 may have more mps but the IQ and iso performance is not significantly better.

The argument that higher density APS-C sensors gives better IQ is not born out in practice - look to the 1DX, 5D (and dare I say it - 12mp ff Nikons) are examples where low density sensors give significantly better IQ than  high density APS-C - and probably still do today.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: wickidwombat on January 28, 2012, 07:02:10 PM
APS-C does not give better IQ than APS-H all you have to do is look at the samples here at various isos
http://www.thedigitalpicture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-7D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx (http://www.thedigitalpicture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-7D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx)
compare the 7D with the 1D4 and even the old 1D3. If the 7D could match the 1D3 i would have retired it long ago and been using a 7D instead however that "fuzziness" you get means the APS-H still has the edge. Who knows what will come in future cameras however I think if they avance the tech of APS-C then APS-H can equally be advanced to continue to provide high IQ levels.

I also personally love using the 16-35 on APS-H as I find it performs better than the 24-70 f2.8 on FF and better than the 17-55 f2.8 on APS-C. thats just my take I am sure lots will disagree though. Personally an APS-H body complements having a FF body perfectly.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: tooslick2k on January 28, 2012, 08:16:29 PM
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Absolutely correct! I dont get why everyone thinks this is gonna happen!
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: AprilForever on January 28, 2012, 11:26:35 PM
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Absolutely correct! I dont get why everyone thinks this is gonna happen!

I am SOOOO with you on this one! A 7D is a 7D, and that means APS-C!
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Rocky on January 29, 2012, 03:07:56 PM
The size of sensor for APS-H is 23% larger than APS-C. There is no doubt that given everything elses is equal, the larger the sensor, the better the picture, especially in noise and high ISO performance. Also the larger senser will have a less demand on the resolution of the lenses. However it will bring out more problem in the area of distortion and corner sharpness. The problems with APS-H sensor are that the EF-S lenses cannot be used and there is no wide angle lense is wide enough for some people. On the other hand, how many people needs an wide angle lense wider than 21mm (FF equilvalent)???
Also Canon can give the APS-H sensor camera anyname. It does not have to be a 7D. There is nothing wrong calling the APS-H sensor a 7D. Rules are made to be broken. Canon  has already broken their own rule giving us a plastic body 60D. Canon also has 3 1D, 1D, 1Ds and 1Dx is coming.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: tooslick2k on January 29, 2012, 03:54:11 PM
The problems with APS-H sensor are that the EF-S lenses cannot be used...

Which is why Canon would not lose the 7D market by making it a APS-H
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: wickidwombat on January 29, 2012, 06:33:06 PM
It doesn't make sense to kill the 7D APS-C for the following reasons
- Wildlife/ sports people need the weather sealled great AF and the 1.6 crop
- It has a big following and there are high quality EF-S lenses that make it a formidable combo

I think the 7D will remain top of the crops, it will make sense to rationalise the lower bunch of crop cameras into 2 or 3 crop models only, I can see the xxxxD series being retired especially with a mirrorless option entering the market.

While I still prefer APS-H myself and I think a new APS-H camera will get a totally new name maybe a 6D be more sporty and priced around where the 5D3 will be up around $3k I guess, the 2 would complement each other well and I think.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Terry Rogers on January 29, 2012, 08:20:08 PM
I preface this by saying I am not a professional and have never used an APS-H camera before. And I'm sure Canon has had many discussions about the APS-H form factor cost/benefit analysis. But here is my two cents for what it's worth (about two cents).

I can see a continued market for an APS-H form factor in a weather sealed pro/semi pro level body that can autofocus to f8. The intended target for such a camera could be wildlife photographers. Wait... Canon has such a camera now in the 1D IV and have chosen to eliminate it with the 1D X! They must have a reason behind this move. Will the 1D X have better image quality than the 1D IV? Almost certainly. BUT, being full frame and "only" 18mp, it won't have the extra reach due to pixel density many who use super telephoto lenses desire.

Seeing no currently announced camera in Canon's lineup will autofocus at f8, my uninformed guess is we'll see a camera designed for the wildlife photographer so they can use their massive (and very expensive) 500 and 600mm f/4 lenses with a 2x teleconverter and maintain autofocus.

Maybe a 7d Mk II will autofocus at f8 and will become the go to body for wildlife photographers. Or maybe not. APS-H seems to be the compromize between 1.6 crop reach and ff image quality.

Again, my two uninformed cents.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: wickidwombat on January 29, 2012, 10:43:46 PM
If the 1Dx doesnt have f8 AF then I very much doubt any lower model will thats always been one of the big 1D differentiators.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Terry Rogers on January 29, 2012, 11:41:04 PM
If the 1Dx doesnt have f8 AF then I very much doubt any lower model will thats always been one of the big 1D differentiators.


If Canon decides not to include f8 autofocus on any other cameras, I suspect they will loose market share to nikon.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: nicku on January 30, 2012, 04:22:15 AM
The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 ( with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.

5DMK3 certainly will have a full frame sensor, and 1DX is FF also. At this point the APS-H sensor is not in use  anymore ( except 1Dmk4 that will be discontinued eventually).

I believe this will be the smartest market move from canon.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: moreorless on January 30, 2012, 05:36:22 AM
I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Indeed I'm not really seeing why people think Canon are likely to radically change the position of the existing 7D and xxD lines in the market rather than introduce a new line.

You look at their previous DSLR history and it seems much more likely that a new higher end line will be introduced which makes marketing sense. Why market the previously enthusiast xxD brand as a semi pro camera to reaplace the 7D? why market the semi pro 7D brand to replace the pro 1D brand?

I think you are right - the 70D will be as good as the 7D today - so what happens to the 7D? Perhaps they will drop it and make a 3d/6d semi pro sports range with a larger sensor with 18-24mps and top iso performance and 8fps.

Sensors are one area where size does count. There is a finite (financial) limit to how much you can use technology to squeeze out of a fixed size sensor, When it costs more to produce a little one instead of a better, lower tech, big one then the big one will win. PCs give us the clue - the processing power from a single processor has barely increased in the last 5 years - so they have switched to multi cores to provide the extra processing power. The NEX7 may have more mps but the IQ and iso performance is not significantly better.

The argument that higher density APS-C sensors gives better IQ is not born out in practice - look to the 1DX, 5D (and dare I say it - 12mp ff Nikons) are examples where low density sensors give significantly better IQ than  high density APS-C - and probably still do today.

As I said I think its more likely that they'd keep the 7D line and drop the xxD line while introducing a new ASPH line(3D?). The 7D right now is a much stronger brand than the 70D would be so I'd say it would make sense to keep it around even if its downgraded a little(or more likely stays still).

Quote from: jimmy156
Now there is a thought! If mirrorless CSC cameras take over the bottem end SLR market with M4/3 and APS-C sensors, as some seem to think they might, it would be an exciting (if very bold) move.

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 30, 2012, 06:16:16 AM

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.

Does it matter that EF lens are slightly too big?? I dont see that as a problen - anymore than using L lens on APS-C

Make TSE lens work better is the plus side.

I like the idea of a mirrorless APS-H - it will be fun to see it outperform a 'proper' camera
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: foobar on January 30, 2012, 06:56:23 AM
In my opinion, there is no way that the 7D Mark II will be APS-H.
And if there will ever be another APS-H camera by Canon, it will not replace an existing APS-C camera line.


The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 (with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.
How do you come to the conclusion that Nikon's new camera for which we don't have any specs will beat Canon's new camera for which we don't have any specs?
And while we're at it: What's your definition of "beating"? Being better in any conceivable way? Selling more units? Having the better image quality? The better AF? What's a better AF? More points overall or more cross-type points? IMHO the discussion is pointless at this point. We don't even have rumors to discuss, just wishlists.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: nicku on January 30, 2012, 07:02:59 AM
In my opinion, there is no way that the 7D Mark II will be APS-H.
And if there will ever be another APS-H camera by Canon, it will not replace an existing APS-C camera line.


The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 (with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.
How do you come to the conclusion that Nikon's new camera for which we don't have any specs will beat Canon's new camera for which we don't have any specs?
And while we're at it: What's your definition of "beating"? Being better in any conceivable way? Selling more units? Having the better image quality? The better AF? What's a better AF? More points overall or more cross-type points? IMHO the discussion is pointless at this point. We don't even have rumors to discuss, just wishlists.

I REFER ONLY TO THE CURRENT 7D ( not 7Dmk2). it has happened before.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: foobar on January 30, 2012, 07:05:09 AM
I REFER ONLY TO THE CURRENT 7D ( not 7Dmk2). it has happened before.
The current 7D? Okay... I think it's safe to assume that Nikon will be able to beat a 2,5 years old camera. ;)
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 30, 2012, 09:47:43 AM
The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 ( with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.

14-15 MP final resolution and a broken reflex mirror after you mount the EF-S 10-22mm and take a shot at 10mm.  Sounds like a plan...
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 30, 2012, 09:51:56 AM
14-15 MP final resolution and a broken reflex mirror after you mount the EF-S 10-22mm and take a shot at 10mm.  Sounds like a plan...

hehehe  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: nicku on January 30, 2012, 11:30:38 AM
The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 ( with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.

14-15 MP final resolution and a broken reflex mirror after you mount the EF-S 10-22mm and take a shot at 10mm.  Sounds like a plan...

who knows, this days technology...
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: moreorless on January 30, 2012, 12:34:51 PM

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.

Does it matter that EF lens are slightly too big?? I dont see that as a problen - anymore than using L lens on APS-C

Make TSE lens work better is the plus side.

I like the idea of a mirrorless APS-H - it will be fun to see it outperform a 'proper' camera

If you mean that there bigger than they need to be for ASPH on the 1D no I wouldnt say it matters but he obviously would on a mirrorless system. Whatever form a Canon mirrorless system takes I'd guess its likely to have a range of new lenses optimized for it and the potential to adapt EF lenses.

One advanatge I see with Canon holding off on an EVIL is that if/when they do deside to release one they'll be able to Me_Me_Me there rivals for sensor size.
T
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 30, 2012, 02:46:45 PM

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.

Does it matter that EF lens are slightly too big?? I dont see that as a problen - anymore than using L lens on APS-C

Make TSE lens work better is the plus side.

I like the idea of a mirrorless APS-H - it will be fun to see it outperform a 'proper' camera

If you mean that there bigger than they need to be for ASPH on the 1D no I wouldnt say it matters but he obviously would on a mirrorless system. Whatever form a Canon mirrorless system takes I'd guess its likely to have a range of new lenses optimized for it and the potential to adapt EF lenses.

One advanatge I see with Canon holding off on an EVIL is that if/when they do deside to release one they'll be able to Me_Me_Me there rivals for sensor size.
T

For a mirrorless system with APS-H sensor not to use EF lens would be a total folly on Canon's behalf. With the EF-S mount there are only a few good lens (3 or 4?) whereas to have to redesign all the good EF lens for a new mount does not make commercial sense
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: kubelik on January 30, 2012, 02:55:16 PM
I think that at this time last year, I would have bought off on the "7D Mark II can't be APS-H because it would screw up naming convention" argument, but I think Canon has shown they're thinking way beyond that already.  as a long-time participant on the forums, I feel we often give Canon too little credit for thinking aggressively outside of the box.  which is actually unwarranted, because Canon have become the industry leader by taking some major risks and creating genuine innovation.

for starters, Canon are the folks that came up with the APS-H in the first place and continued to use it well after everyone said they'd abandon the format.  secondly, Canon (at least claims to have) merged the 1D line, against everyone's cries of 'preposterous' and 'what will we do for high resolution?  the nikon d4x will be 38 gajillion pixels'.  third, Canon did stick a near-APS-C sensor into the G-series camera, while still calling it the G-series.  this broke two rules that everyone assumed that they would adhere to: a. that we can't change sensor size without changing the lineup name, and b. that canon's large-sensor compact would HAVE to be interchangeable lens because that's what everyone else was doing.

I don't see why Canon's next surprise won't be an APS-H 7D Mark II.  sure, people will bitch for a while about not being able to use their 10-22 ... until they buy their 16-35.  in reality, everyone with a 7D is probably already rolling with a few L lenses (even if it's the 70-200mm f/4 L), which will work just fine on an APS-H sensor.  raise your hands if you really bought a 7D so you could shoot wide format shots.  that's what I thought.

we always give Canon crud over being too stodgy and conservative but I feel as though WE, the consumer base, are actually the ones that are stodgy and conservative.  Canon is bringing some very cool product to the table this year and I think awesome things are in the future for the 5D and 7D lines.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: nicku on January 31, 2012, 01:05:16 AM
I think that at this time last year, I would have bought off on the "7D Mark II can't be APS-H because it would screw up naming convention" argument, but I think Canon has shown they're thinking way beyond that already.  as a long-time participant on the forums, I feel we often give Canon too little credit for thinking aggressively outside of the box.  which is actually unwarranted, because Canon have become the industry leader by taking some major risks and creating genuine innovation.

for starters, Canon are the folks that came up with the APS-H in the first place and continued to use it well after everyone said they'd abandon the format.  secondly, Canon (at least claims to have) merged the 1D line, against everyone's cries of 'preposterous' and 'what will we do for high resolution?  the nikon d4x will be 38 gajillion pixels'.  third, Canon did stick a near-APS-C sensor into the G-series camera, while still calling it the G-series.  this broke two rules that everyone assumed that they would adhere to: a. that we can't change sensor size without changing the lineup name, and b. that canon's large-sensor compact would HAVE to be interchangeable lens because that's what everyone else was doing.

I don't see why Canon's next surprise won't be an APS-H 7D Mark II.  sure, people will bitch for a while about not being able to use their 10-22 ... until they buy their 16-35.  in reality, everyone with a 7D is probably already rolling with a few L lenses (even if it's the 70-200mm f/4 L), which will work just fine on an APS-H sensor.  raise your hands if you really bought a 7D so you could shoot wide format shots.  that's what I thought.

we always give Canon crud over being too stodgy and conservative but I feel as though WE, the consumer base, are actually the ones that are stodgy and conservative.  Canon is bringing some very cool product to the table this year and I think awesome things are in the future for the 5D and 7D lines.

kubelik - You read my thoughts.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on January 31, 2012, 02:00:06 AM
Canon did stick a near-APS-C sensor into the G-series camera, while still calling it the G-series.  this broke two rules that everyone assumed that they would adhere to: a. that we can't change sensor size without changing the lineup name, and b. that canon's large-sensor compact would HAVE to be interchangeable lens because that's what everyone else was doing.

As the G series does not have interchangeable lenses, owners don't lose any of their investment upgrading to a G series camera with a bigger sensor.

I don't see why Canon's next surprise won't be an APS-H 7D Mark II.  sure, people will bitch for a while about not being able to use their 10-22 ... until they buy their 16-35.

Except the 16-35mm on APS-H isn't as wide as 10-22mm on APS-C. I assume Canon would check how many owners of 7D are interested in ultra wide lenses and are unwilling to buy an APS-C body (say a 60D) to keep the ability.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 31, 2012, 02:48:48 AM
Except the 16-35mm on APS-H isn't as wide as 10-22mm on APS-C. I assume Canon would check how many owners of 7D are interested in ultra wide lenses and are unwilling to buy an APS-C body (say a 60D) to keep the ability.

.... but the excellent 14mm is wider. So Canon would sell you the 16-35 and a 14mm or maybe the 8-15. Sounds like a good business plan.

The 7D has always been sold as a sports camera and certainly most of the complaints have been about the lack of reach of the 1.3 crop/ff. So not to move because of one uw lens is something that will not stop them - look a what has happened to the 1.3 wildlife shooters losing the 1.3 crop where there is REALLY no alternative lens solution
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on January 31, 2012, 04:32:57 AM
Except the 16-35mm on APS-H isn't as wide as 10-22mm on APS-C. I assume Canon would check how many owners of 7D are interested in ultra wide lenses and are unwilling to buy an APS-C body (say a 60D) to keep the ability.

.... but the excellent 14mm is wider.

The EF 14mm would be a bit narrower than 18mm on FF. B&H lists the 16-35mm at ~U.S.$1,450, and the 14mm at ~U.S.$2,000. This is good money.

So Canon would sell you the 16-35 and a 14mm or maybe the 8-15. Sounds like a good business plan.

The EF 8-15mm is not rectilinear and is a stop slower. Canon might be happy to sell three lenses in place of one, the buyers, well, not so much.

The 7D has always been sold as a sports camera and certainly most of the complaints have been about the lack of reach of the 1.3 crop/ff. So not to move because of one uw lens is something that will not stop them

In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 31, 2012, 04:48:25 AM
In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on January 31, 2012, 08:01:44 AM
In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 31, 2012, 09:57:13 AM
In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

Perhaps we might copy Nikon and have compatibility modes? I dont know if it would be possible to mount ef-s and ef lens on a ff body
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: EYEONE on January 31, 2012, 10:16:40 AM
In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

Perhaps we might copy Nikon and have compatibility modes? I dont know if it would be possible to mount ef-s and ef lens on a ff body

It's not. EF-S lenses go too deep into the mount and the FF mirror would hit the back of the lens.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 31, 2012, 10:19:01 AM
In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

Perhaps we might copy Nikon and have compatibility modes? I dont know if it would be possible to mount ef-s and ef lens on a ff body

It's not. EF-S lenses go too deep into the mount and the FF mirror would hit the back of the lens.

I appreciate that it cant be done at the moment but there maybe a way of moving the mirror?
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: EYEONE on January 31, 2012, 11:26:01 AM
In this case, owners of 7D might be unhappy about downgrading from 1.6x crop to 1.3x crop. At best, this would require buying a 1.4x teleconverter ($300 for the mark II, $470 for the mark III). At worst this might require buying new telephoto lenses, and that's really big money.

They have already done this to the 1.3 owners by moving to the ff 1DX - of which a lot were already using the 800 f/5.6. By taking away the f/8 capability there is no way of getting back the extra reach. The longest they can get now is the 600 f/4 + 1.4 to give 840.

The only way to get the extra reach would be by going to a 1.6 - which then hits the noise issues when trying to get the shutter speeds to 1/1500.

A lose/lose situation

The only way I see to resolve the issue is to continue making both both APS-C and APS-H body (whether those are called 7D and 1D or not), anything else taking something away from current owners.

[OK, Canon might be bought by santa, who would offer 1D owners to replace their telephotos with 1.3x longer lenses, but that's not a likely scenario.]

Perhaps we might copy Nikon and have compatibility modes? I dont know if it would be possible to mount ef-s and ef lens on a ff body

It's not. EF-S lenses go too deep into the mount and the FF mirror would hit the back of the lens.

I appreciate that it cant be done at the moment but there maybe a way of moving the mirror?

Well, I've said it before but I think it could be done if Canon used a mirror motion similar to the Sony A900. The mirror in the A900 is pushed up more than it is swung up. It moves forward very little during the operation. I doubt Canon would employ a new shutter design just to allow people to use EF-S lenses on FF cameras however.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 31, 2012, 11:39:25 AM

I appreciate that it cant be done at the moment but there maybe a way of moving the mirror?

Well, I've said it before but I think it could be done if Canon used a mirror motion similar to the Sony A900. The mirror in the A900 is pushed up more than it is swung up. It moves forward very little during the operation. I doubt Canon would employ a new shutter design just to allow people to use EF-S lenses on FF cameras however.

Was thinking that top of the range could be a full frame sensor that allowed 1.6 users a seemless and painless migration path upwards. That would mean that xD and xxD  could move to ff and improve the IQ all round. It would also get round the issues with the EF-S and truly allow the APS-H to wither away as there would be no need for compromise.

However it would need more mps on the ff sensor. I suspect new mirror costs would be more than recouped by large scale economics
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Rocky on January 31, 2012, 12:38:03 PM
The EF-S lenses angle of view cannot cover the whole APS-H snsoer, even after the mirror problem has been taken care of.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 31, 2012, 12:53:55 PM
The EF-S lenses angle of view cannot cover the whole APS-H snsoer, even after the mirror problem has been taken care of.

That's why the suggestion was for a reduced MP final image, just the APS-C frame cropped from the larger sensor.  Nikon doesn't use short back focus lenses, and that's how their DX mode works.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: briansquibb on January 31, 2012, 01:27:03 PM
The EF-S lenses angle of view cannot cover the whole APS-H snsoer, even after the mirror problem has been taken care of.

That's why the suggestion was for a reduced MP final image, just the APS-C frame cropped from the larger sensor.  Nikon doesn't use short back focus lenses, and that's how their DX mode works.

I was thinking the the firmware would give a reduced pixel sizes so as well as mRaw we might have cRaw and hRaw for APS-C view and APS-H view, perhaps even 2kRaw for HD landscape. Rather like an electric version of the old APS film camera.

Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: Vamp898 on January 31, 2012, 01:39:50 PM
To say the truth, i highly doubt that the 7D will get an APS-H, with that step Canon would bring two situations with that.

With crop-lenses (EF-S), you can only use it with reduce megapixels

With Full-Frame lenses, you dont have the full focal-lengh, there is always the crop-factor.

Sou you have the disadvantage of a smaller sensor on full-frame lenses and you have the disadvantage of the reduced MP with a crop-lense (without any advantage like better noise-handling. You just loose parts of your sensor).

Also Canons flagship would be the 60D again until 70D is released. You can not compare the 7D view-finder with the 60D view-finder and i doubt that the 70D view-finder and features will _that_ better to be the new 7D.

So Nikon takes the lead in the APS-C section with the D7000 and Sony with its Alpha 77 is close after it.

Where would Canon be? An 7D with an DIGIC5 Sensor is exactly what Canon needs in the APS-C Sector, using an APS-H sensor wouldnt be that clever at all.

Also it seems like canon dont want to use the APS-H anymore, at least the choise of merging the 1D and 1Ds look like that for me.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: moreorless on January 31, 2012, 02:52:03 PM
For a mirrorless system with APS-H sensor not to use EF lens would be a total folly on Canon's behalf. With the EF-S mount there are only a few good lens (3 or 4?) whereas to have to redesign all the good EF lens for a new mount does not make commercial sense

Using EF-S lenses would surely mean that Canon would be unable to reduce the flange distance and thus unable to save much space on a mirrorless body as there rivals have.

Seems most likely to me that they'd create a small new system of general purpose mirrorless lenses along with an EF adaptor to allow for more speicalist lenses to be used with AF intact. Not being able to use EF-S lenses doesnt seem like much of a problem to me since there arent really any speicalist lenses in the lineup besides arguebley the 60mm macro which has many EF alternatives anyway.
Title: Re: 7D Mk2 ..... APS-H
Post by: nicku on February 02, 2012, 03:49:49 AM
For a mirrorless system with APS-H sensor not to use EF lens would be a total folly on Canon's behalf. With the EF-S mount there are only a few good lens (3 or 4?) whereas to have to redesign all the good EF lens for a new mount does not make commercial sense

Using EF-S lenses would surely mean that Canon would be unable to reduce the flange distance and thus unable to save much space on a mirrorless body as there rivals have.

Seems most likely to me that they'd create a small new system of general purpose mirrorless lenses along with an EF adaptor to allow for more speicalist lenses to be used with AF intact. Not being able to use EF-S lenses doesnt seem like much of a problem to me since there arent really any speicalist lenses in the lineup besides arguebley the 60mm macro which has many EF alternatives anyway.

I do the same. i believe that the final price will be under $3.000