canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on February 05, 2012, 09:36:11 AM

Title: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on February 05, 2012, 09:36:11 AM
Could it be? I have received two random emails saying that “f/8″ autofocus in the 1D X will be added to the final firmware for the camera.

By f/8, I mean the ability to have autofocus when the widest aperture of a lens is f/8. i.e.  a 500 f/4L IS with a 2X teleconverter. Which is 1000mm f/8.

We had heard previously that the perceived shortcomings in the 1D X could be fixed in firmware.

Canon EOS-1D X at B&H

cr

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Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: CrimsonBlue on February 05, 2012, 09:49:11 AM
That would be excellent news, and worth waiting an extra few weeks. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Mark D5 TEAM II on February 05, 2012, 09:56:28 AM
Only *two* random emails? I'll send another and maybe it would become a CR2 rumor :P. This f/8 non-issue is overwrought as it is. I suspect this is because that's the only feature that the D4 has over the 1Dx. Everything else is inferior on the D4. Did it occur to the fanbois that the previous Nikons didn't have this f/8 capability while the EOS-1 series has had it since the mid-90s? No one has trumpeted it as a huge advantage until now that the shoe is on the other foot.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: zim on February 05, 2012, 11:17:41 AM
May I ask what I suspect is a dumb question please…..
Would the f8 issue be resolved if Canon designed a new ‘faster’ teleconverter? Is that possible?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Stu_bert on February 05, 2012, 11:19:42 AM
one hopes that it does not impact in any way on the rest of the AF performance, which appears to be extremely good by all reports. Maybe Canon could implement it as an option which you can toggle on / off, or it auto-detects the f/8 and adjusts....
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Stu_bert on February 05, 2012, 11:22:12 AM
May I ask what I suspect is a dumb question please…..
Would the f8 issue be resolved if Canon designed a new ‘faster’ teleconverter? Is that possible?

Zim, I guess if you didn't lose the 2 stops of light, and therefore f/8 for an f/5.6 lens then you would be fine. But presume to achieve the 2x and the size of the teleconverter means this is not possible or not possible in a cost effective way....
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Stu_bert on February 05, 2012, 11:23:42 AM
Only *two* random emails? I'll send another and maybe it would become a CR2 rumor :P. This f/8 non-issue is overwrought as it is. I suspect this is because that's the only feature that the D4 has over the 1Dx. Everything else is inferior on the D4. Did it occur to the fanbois that the previous Nikons didn't have this f/8 capability while the EOS-1 series has had it since the mid-90s? No one has trumpeted it as a huge advantage until now that the shoe is on the other foot.
One of the reasons I bought my 1Ds was on the basis of the f/8 capability.... so yes I care if none of the future Canon bodies, Pro or Prosumer do not have this capability
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 05, 2012, 11:24:46 AM
May I ask what I suspect is a dumb question please…..
Would the f8 issue be resolved if Canon designed a new ‘faster’ teleconverter? Is that possible?

Sorry...not possible.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: rbr on February 05, 2012, 11:25:25 AM
Only *two* random emails? I'll send another and maybe it would become a CR2 rumor :P. This f/8 non-issue is overwrought as it is. I suspect this is because that's the only feature that the D4 has over the 1Dx. Everything else is inferior on the D4. Did it occur to the fanbois that the previous Nikons didn't have this f/8 capability while the EOS-1 series has had it since the mid-90s? No one has trumpeted it as a huge advantage until now that the shoe is on the other foot.

Nikon cameras have never disabled af with an f8 lens, and they have always worked fairly well with them (so I am told). Nikon also doesn't offer a 800 f5.6 lens (or a 400 f5.6) that is frequently used with a 1.4x by Canon owners. It is also no secret that Canon's new 2xIII teleconverters work very well with the current 500 f4 and 600 f4 lenses and that Nikon's current 2x TC is not of the same quality. If you were a bird photographer using Canon cameras and had tens of thousands of dollars invested in big white lenses, the loss of af at f8 is not a trivial matter.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: KeithR on February 05, 2012, 11:46:14 AM
This f/8 non-issue is overwrought as it is.

Why? Because it doesn't matter to you?

It matters immensely to several of my pro bird photography buddies.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: zim on February 05, 2012, 11:46:52 AM
Ah well...... Ye canna change the laws of physics  ;D
Thanks for the replys guys
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: KeithR on February 05, 2012, 12:04:58 PM
Ah well...... Ye canna change the laws of physics  ;D

It's not the laws of physics that's at issue, it's entirely the design choices made for the 1DX - previous 1D bodies have had no problem with f/8 AF.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Jan on February 05, 2012, 12:19:59 PM
Hum... as far as I understood the AF-sensor, adding f/8 support via firmware is not possible, if the sensor wasn't designed to do f/8 focusing. But the 1DX isn't going to be my next camera body anyway...
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 05, 2012, 12:26:51 PM
Ah well...... Ye canna change the laws of physics  ;D

It's not the laws of physics that's at issue, it's entirely the design choices made for the 1DX - previous 1D bodies have had no problem with f/8 AF.

The question at hand was about the possibility of designing a 'faster teleconverter' as a workaround for the f/8 issue. Optical physics is quite relevant for that question.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: liv_img on February 05, 2012, 12:35:41 PM
Yes, Canon, yes, please!! :P

(Although in a very recent 1DX presentation a Canon rep told me that it's impossible to correct this issue in firmware).
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: kubelik on February 05, 2012, 01:13:31 PM
Yes, Canon, yes, please!! :P

(Although in a very recent 1DX presentation a Canon rep told me that it's impossible to correct this issue in firmware).

Given the fact that you can tape pins in the mount to enable this in older and non-1-series cameras, this is definitely a firmware issue.  I'm confident that given the choice of zero AF at f/8 or less impressive performance at f/8, everyone would choose the latter.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on February 05, 2012, 01:23:40 PM
May I ask what I suspect is a dumb question please…..
Would the f8 issue be resolved if Canon designed a new ‘faster’ teleconverter? Is that possible?

not possible unless you alter the laws of physics.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Wrathwilde on February 05, 2012, 01:35:24 PM
not possible unless you alter the laws of physics.

According to several bosses I've had... that's no excuse, make it work.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on February 05, 2012, 01:36:25 PM
Hum... as far as I understood the AF-sensor, adding f/8 support via firmware is not possible, if the sensor wasn't designed to do f/8 focusing. But the 1DX isn't going to be my next camera body anyway...

It can be added in firmware, but likely will not work very well without some different hardware.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 05, 2012, 01:38:58 PM
Given the fact that you can tape pins in the mount to enable this in older and non-1-series cameras, this is definitely a firmware issue.  I'm confident that given the choice of zero AF at f/8 or less impressive performance at f/8, everyone would choose the latter.

It's not working in the same way, though. In the previous 1-series bodies, Canon designed the center AF point to be sensitive at f/8 in one orientation (and f/4 in the other) without sacrificing accuracy with f/5.6 and f/2.8 (respectively) lenses.  Taping pins isn't quite the same. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: pakosouthpark on February 05, 2012, 02:04:13 PM
not possible unless you alter the laws of physics.

According to several bosses I've had... that's no excuse, make it work.

that's what canon has to do! to make it work! come on, i mean they have the best engineers and all that..!
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Ekefe on February 05, 2012, 02:20:26 PM
I think that if you decide to create the "Definitive" Body (is that what Canon has decided to do...), putting in it every best skill you can, is a pure nonsense to erase the "f8" AF Aiming skill. As a lot of PRO use the 2X teleconverter with long rage f4 Zooms. Don't forget we're speaking about the 6-7,000 $ next top Body, not the 600 $ entry level one. So, Canon is kindly requested to correct this nonsense....   :o   
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: KeithR on February 05, 2012, 02:33:53 PM
The question at hand was about the possibility of designing a 'faster teleconverter' as a workaround for the f/8 issue. Optical physics is quite relevant for that question.

Fair point - but the question would be irrelevant if Canon hadn't made the decisions it has made with regard to the 1DX...
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Asposium on February 05, 2012, 03:40:05 PM
consider a lens of a particular focal length and aperture, this lens "collects" light from a given field of view (angle)

a teleconverter reduces the field of view of the lens, as therefore the light collection by a similar value.

make any sense?

as for the 1D X and f/8.  i wonder why f/8 AF was left out beforehand.  make me wonder if the f/8 wasn't "good enough" and was only added due to internet complaint.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: Colorado on February 05, 2012, 03:55:04 PM
Predicted chain of events:

-- Canon tested and determined that AF capability at f/8 is below the design goal for the 1DX
-- Canon announced no AF capability at f/8 for the 1DX
-- Internet "users" who will never buy the camera declare they are switching to Nikon
-- Canon decides they have a marketing issue, changes firmware to allow subpar focusing at f/8
-- Internet users declare they are sticking with Canon
-- 1DX is released
-- Rob Galbraith conducts extensive testing exclusively at f/8
-- Galbraith writes 26 page article detailing 1DX's "poor" AF performance
-- Internet users declare they are switching back to Nikon

:)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: jrista on February 05, 2012, 04:00:11 PM
May I ask what I suspect is a dumb question please…..
Would the f8 issue be resolved if Canon designed a new ‘faster’ teleconverter? Is that possible?

It doesn't really work that way. Aperture f# is a relative value, so if you start with say a 500mm lens with an f/4 aperture, that means you have a 125mm (500/4 = 125) entrance pupil (physical aperture as viewed through the front of the lens). Now, the maximum aperture is fixed, a built-in physical aspect of the lens. Adding additional optical elements onto the end of the lens (a teleconverter) cannot change physical aspects of the lens, so the entrance pupil is the same, even though with a 2x TC you now have a 1000mm lens. You can arrive at the new f# for that longer focal length by dividing the focal length by the entrance pupil diameter: 1000/125 = 8. Similarly, if you slapped on a 1.4x TC, you would have 700/125 = 5.6.

There isn't really such a thing as "speed" for a teleconverter...thats determined by the total focal length and the entrance pupil.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: BDD on February 05, 2012, 05:58:56 PM
Only *two* random emails? I'll send another and maybe it would become a CR2 rumor :P. This f/8 non-issue is overwrought as it is. I suspect this is because that's the only feature that the D4 has over the 1Dx. Everything else is inferior on the D4. Did it occur to the fanbois that the previous Nikons didn't have this f/8 capability while the EOS-1 series has had it since the mid-90s? No one has trumpeted it as a huge advantage until now that the shoe is on the other foot.

I was thinking the same thing. On paper having the ability to AF at f/8 was what the D4 has over the 1D-X. That and the difference in cost ($1000 difference in Canada). If Canon does give the 1D-X this ability...would be a smart move. They have time.

But, if Canon does this...and Nikon catches wind of this...will Nikon play the "one up game" and give the D4 another stop? :)

Will the 5D3 be able to do this too?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on February 05, 2012, 06:05:44 PM
not possible unless you alter the laws of physics.

According to several bosses I've had... that's no excuse, make it work.

Wow I think we have had the same Bosses!

if it is just firmware I wonder if magic lantern could enable f8 AF on the rest of the line
that would really put the bird togs amongst the pigeons

I would also think if its firmware they can just make the f8 a selectable setting where you can enable or disable and thereby increasing or decreasing the f2.8 sensetivity accordingly and get the best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X f/8 to be Added? [CR1]
Post by: marekjoz on February 05, 2012, 07:03:21 PM
not possible unless you alter the laws of physics.

According to several bosses I've had... that's no excuse, make it work.

Wow I think we have had the same Bosses!

if it is just firmware I wonder if magic lantern could enable f8 AF on the rest of the line
that would really put the bird togs amongst the pigeons

(...)

When I last checked ML, they had problems with synchronizing 2 digics working at a time, so even version for 7d is no longer developed as far. 1dx has also 2 digics (+1 for af) so problems could be same there. If so, then ML for 1dx may take long time if ever succeeded