canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Busted Knuckles on April 29, 2017, 07:57:12 AM

Title: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Busted Knuckles on April 29, 2017, 07:57:12 AM
Mercedes &BMW are still a profitable automobile manufacturers, but you have to admit the brand managers blew it some 20 years ago by not crushing the upstart Japanese entrants into to the luxo market.  And now there is even the Korean entrants.... so much for being content with modest growth, etc.

Canon will continue to be a profitable imaging device company, There is still a bit of cache left to the Merc, but the real function buyers are moving away from Merc/BMW at a pretty good clip and both those institutional brands are scrambling to get to the front of the parade.  And scrambling in a ham handed way.

I just took the 5DmkIV for a 2 week spin.  Yes it produced great still images..... as did the Sony...  But when I went to video mode.... well I don't want to be known a basher so I will leave it there.

Canon for all the world feels like the lumbering Mercedes of the early 90s trying to get it's head wrapped around the demands of the younger generation.  You have to admit Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc.  And perhaps shortly Canon will glide path into a feature competitive offering while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage until they land on the right config.

I can remember the debates of the establishment PDA (palm pilot) expressing that people really didn't want a swiss army knife does it all single device.......  If you can remember palm pilot or even fortunately the Apple Note..... 

The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Yep pretty disappointed in the Mk IV and won't be upgrading anytime soon.  If I do it will be a brand change.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: BeenThere on April 29, 2017, 08:19:05 AM
So far, Canon still has the glass to beat.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Rockskipper on April 29, 2017, 09:11:36 AM
It would be helpful if you went into specifics, as I'm looking to buy a Mark IV. Interesting that the salesman at Canon told me going to a Mark IV was like going from a Toyota to a Mercedes. That kind of had the opposite effect on me, as my current Toyota has over 200k miles and is still going strong and the only Mercedes owner I know is sorry he bought the thing, as parts cost a fortune.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: dak723 on April 29, 2017, 10:06:28 AM
I don't care if Canon is #1 in sales or #10.  I don't care if Canon aims to lure the younger generation or not.  I care about QUALITY.  Quality in the equipment and in the results.  That is why I own a Canon camera, and have owned various Canon cameras and lenses over the past 20 years.  I also own an Olympus camera for the same reason.

So, I don't care if others are switching to Sony.  I don't see why anyone cares.  People should buy what they want and what suits their needs.  I don't consider Sony because I already tried their A7 and A& II.  The combination of camera and kit lens was the worst I have ever tried.  So, for me, it is not a question of Mercedes vs. Lexus, but Mercedes vs. Ford Pinto.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: LDS on April 29, 2017, 11:15:34 AM
but the real function buyers are moving away from Merc/BMW at a pretty good clip and both those institutional brands are scrambling to get to the front of the parade.

You maybe forgot Audi too... but do you have data to back your assertions? An hint: the US car market, for example, is very different from the European one. Also be careful about drawing parallels across different markets...

Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: ykn123 on April 29, 2017, 12:16:12 PM
Well, i dont know on which planet you are but Mercedes (Daimler to be correct) and BMW are very healthy companies and if you ever owned one of their cars, you would understand that your sample really isn't a good one.
But reagrdless of whether we talk about cars or cameras, competition is always a good thing for the customer. Go use whatever fits your business needs the most - i'm sure both Toyota and Daimler have nice cars to sell as Canon and Sony have nice cameras.
I still think that if you cant get a decent image with a Canon camera, then a Sony would not help you. And i still think that usability, ergonomics and availability of good glass as well as the resell value is good on Canon compared to Sony (and the same is true somehow for Daimler and BMW as well compared to Toyota)
Here in good old Europe you see a lot of BMW's ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: unfocused on April 29, 2017, 03:12:12 PM
...the real function buyers are moving away from Merc/BMW at a pretty good clip...

Honestly, you couldn't spend 30 seconds on Google before writing your silly post?

Quote
Daimler's Profit Doubles on Strong Mercedes-Benz SUV Sales

Quote
BMW Profit Jumps 27% on Strong Sales...

Yeah people are really moving away. Just like people are moving away from Canon – not.

Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: ethanz on April 29, 2017, 07:27:41 PM
There have been and will continue to be posts about how Canon is doomed. We can make all the analogies and theories we want to, but we don't know what will happen in the future. What we know now is that Canon has the best gear and service in the industry. As someone else said, competition is great for the consumer. So Sony can keep bringing out new features and Canon will do what it wants.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Jopa on April 30, 2017, 01:34:51 AM
To me Lexus was always an overpriced Toyota, unlike BMW or Mercedes... :) personal preferences though.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: edoorn on April 30, 2017, 04:15:32 AM
Well I shoot Canon and drive a BMW ;)

You know why I like the BMW?

I know other cars have more bells and whistles, but in the end what makes it so good is the fact that it's a pure driving machine and the experience and pleasure doing so is great fun (even the 1 series have rear wheel driving).

Same with Canon; the ergonomics are great and intuïtive and just meant to use for photographers. You can control everything without even looking at the camera or thinking.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: CanonFanBoy on April 30, 2017, 07:01:31 AM

The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Yep pretty disappointed in the Mk IV and won't be upgrading anytime soon.  If I do it will be a brand change.
Sounds like your ham handedness with the joystick control led your ex-wife to upgrade and make a brand change, to something less self righteous. :P
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: YuengLinger on April 30, 2017, 08:06:27 AM
I think the messy analogies are pointless.

I think keeping track of what devices an ex-spouse are using is, umm, odd.

Serious videographers have the 1DX II and dedicated video cameras.  Serious photographers have the 1DX II and, for half the price (but still one of the best AF systems on the planet), the 5D IV!
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: monkey44 on April 30, 2017, 08:52:34 AM
I've always bought Canon, and upgrade when the camera or lens no longer does what I want it to do.  I've never had any reason to switch brands.   Only when Canon fails to produce my work product will I change brands.  Why fix what ain't broke.  Anytime you change brands, you also change other tech components (Lenses for one) and it can get expensive.  I shoot college sports and wildlife/nature primarily -

Chain - FILM/SLIDES >> 10D >> 30D >> 5DM3
Lenses  20/35 + 28/135 + 70/300 >>> 100-400L v1
Upgrade w/5DM3 >> 16-35L IS + 24-105L IS + 70-200L IS + 100-400L IS v2

Never had a reason to switch brands in thirty years -- Canon performs every task I ask of it ...
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: canon1dxman on April 30, 2017, 09:06:58 AM
Yesterday, I spent an hour or so with Andy Rouse, a Canon Ambassador. 80% (at a guess) of his images in the presentation were from the 5D IV. I talked to him later and he said it's a simply magnificent camera. Sure, the 1DX II is his powerhouse when needed but he loves the camera and the images were amazing.

I also got to play with the new Sony A9. Lovely camera but felt like a toy compared to the Canons.

As for cars, in Europe, Lexus and Infinity are insignificant. Considered to be overpriced Toyotas and Datsuns.
Mercedes, Audio and BMW rule. I won't be changing my Merc anytime soon, unless it's for another one. Totally bulletproof as far as reliability is concerned.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: RunAndGun on April 30, 2017, 11:55:09 AM
If you're buying a still cam and complain about the "video mode", I think I know what the problem is...

I shoot "video" for a living and have for 20 years.  We can espouse about the video coming out of dslr's all day and about how much of a revolution the 5DII was in changing things, BUT at the end of the day, DSLR's are not dedicated video cameras, no matter how much people want to believe they are or even how the manufacturers may emphasize video and video-centric features on them.  That being said, I own a total of four different 5D models from the II through IV and all were bought for still use, but like so many in the industry, I have used 5D's for video.  But always as a lock-off second(or third or fourth) angle playing B or C or D camera to a C300 or F55 or VariCam.

There is no shortage of people saying Canon is dead, Canon is behind the times, 'insert negative comment about' Canon...  But Canon cameras and lenses produce great looking images.  As a matter of fact, ALL the brands/manufacturers gear can produce great looking images.  The weak link in the chain, most of the time, is the actual photographer.  If Canon cameras don't have a feature you want or you like X on Y brand better, that's fine.  Purchase that brand.  There's probably never been a better time to be a photographer(not from a business stand-point) than now.  There are so many choices from so many good manufacturers, it's crazy.

In the still world, I think Canon has the best overall 'package'.  Great image, well built ergonomic bodies, the best selection of glass period and bullet-proof reliability.  No doubt Sony is making in-roads and producing great equipment with great tech and features, but as a whole they are not there, yet. 

I've owned Sony video cameras from my first BetaCam 20 years ago through the F55 today and they blow Canon's doors off with regards to building a functioning video camera body- I hate my C300 with regards to actually using it.  The image is great, but it's a PITA to shoot with.  Kind of like the flip of the still side, the Sony still cameras look like they were designed 30-40 years ago and seem like they would just be a PITA to hold in your hand and shoot with all day.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Mikehit on April 30, 2017, 12:15:52 PM
I understand that video bloggers are moving to the Panasonic GH5 in droves. So from this perspective the Sony A9 is neither as good a stills camera as the Canon range, nor the primary choice of video bloggers.
So where does that fit the 'Lexus v Mercedes' analogy??
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: rfdesigner on April 30, 2017, 02:35:46 PM
Mercedes &BMW are still a profitable automobile manufacturers, but you have to admit the brand managers blew it some 20 years ago by not crushing the upstart Japanese entrants into to the luxo market.  And now there is even the Korean entrants.... so much for being content with modest growth, etc.

I drive a merc: MB dropping the ball?  they dropped it in trying to crush Lexus by slashing costs, Only since they jettisoned Chrysler has quality returned, I don't believe that's a coincidence.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Busted Knuckles on April 30, 2017, 07:44:13 PM
I am encouraged by the responses, so many hard felt beliefs.  And so many misinterpretations....  Where would Merc/BMW be if they had crushed the start ups?  Better off than they are now?  I suspect so.  And the consumer probably worse off.

Yes, I didn't mention Audi oversight, but they might be considered to have had their Sony like challenges through the years - so that would have been interesting juxtaposition...Not withstanding that they are considered (or so I am told) are held in higher esteem than Merc in Germany.  Not that I ever expect Canon to out of business. 

So I had a SCCA license before I took a year off to do Ford 2k, if you know what that means good...... The BMW is intentionally castered to reasonably negative so that it drives "heavy" vs. neutral  because 99.999999% of civilians can't handle a neutral caster.  You want a true driving experience, see if your BMW mechanic can step your steering toward neutral or even positive - and then you MUST drive the car vs. the other way round.  For the price of a 5dIV you too can go get a SCCA license and have a blast doing it.

The 5dIV is a fine camera, particularly if you don't have a 5dIII.  I think a 5DsR would be my choice if I was going for high(er) resolution (I have shot II, III, IV and R) - as like one of the other posters noted - using a stills camera for video still isn't there... in the Canon line.  And if you are going to shoot vids for money i.e. professionally..... I watched a professional do it w/ a 5dMkII & 24-105 an 8 year old body and a 12 year old lens..... internationally - and he didn't know what frame compression mode he use using (IPB or ALL I, etc) all he could do is tell me it was H.264.... bit rate anyone, color profile?  I offered to shoot b roll for him and wanted to mirror his set up. oh well...... I will let you ponder/opine if this was an appropriate professional thing to do.

As far as feeling like a toy, Sony - perhaps, the IV seemed quite a bit lighter than the III - It felt very nice, etc.  I did notice that when I was working in the camera store every 35mm felt like a toy compared to a 'Blad and even that was a bit light compared to the RolleiFlex, and that was childsplay next to the Lihhoff.... all a matter of perspective.

So, in conclusion, (1) Canon won't go bankrupt, in my humble opinion, they would be better off if they pinched off the functional hole in their product line. (2) the convergence of vid and stills in inevitable. Those who have shot with me recently, heard me express that I expected Sony to come out w/ a global shutter in their next A body - oopsss missed it - 1/32,000 is pretty close - though I haven't seen the reduction in rolling shutter in person I am looking forward to it.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Buster on April 30, 2017, 11:07:39 PM
...while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage ...
Fuselage you say!? I think the word you are grasping for is "fusillade" not "fuselage" although the correction will hardly improve your sophomoric screed.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Orangutan on April 30, 2017, 11:14:05 PM
...while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage ...
Fuselage you say!? I think the word you are grasping for is "fusillade" not "fuselage" although the correction will hardly improve your sophomoric screed.
Welcome to CR!
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: YuengLinger on May 01, 2017, 07:03:26 AM
The "convergence of still and vid" has already happened, but the two forms of image capture are different.  Canon delivers a dSLR that is an evolution of a tried and true ergonomic design that works right for portraits, action, and wildlife. 

The shape and controls of the dSLR simply don't work as well for handheld video, but Canon recognized before Nikon or Sony the market for a device that could catch supplemental video during a stills shoot, say at weddings and other events.  Clever videographers saw the amazing potential that dSLR lenses brought to video and exploited them effectively.

Which led enthusiastic amateurs to think they had a cheaper, single device route to making great movies and take top quality stills too.  A new industry formed to make brackets and counterbalances and other gadgets which work around the ergonomic limitations of the dSLR.

The car analogy isn't working for me.  Maybe something with cooking?  A conventional oven is great for baking and roasting.  A microwave for quick heating, "cooking" a frozen dinner, maybe boiling water for tea or baby formula.  Years ago a few manufacturers tried making microwaves that had browning elements (maybe there are still some being made).  But most cooks, from occasional to professionals, understood that a microwave could never bake well, and an oven was too slow for frozen prepared meals.  Which is why most kitchens have an oven and a microwave.

Wonderfully balanced, ergonomically superb video cameras with sensors, light meter, AF, and IS designed for videography are available in all price ranges.  Same with stills cameras.

Ok, I'll play along with the vehicle analogy.  Comparing brands of passenger vehicles doesn't make sense when, in fact, the OP is arguing that every car should be a pickup truck, and every pickup truck should be a car.  Here in the USA we had a rare bird of a vehicle called an El Camino, a hybrid, a car with a bed and tailgate.  It is now a curiosity, a collector's item.

Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Busted Knuckles on May 01, 2017, 07:27:29 AM
...while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage ...
Fuselage you say!? I think the word you are grasping for is "fusillade" not "fuselage" although the correction will hardly improve your sophomoric screed.
Welcome to CR!

At least he/she read it and thought about it.  Good catch on the autocorrect.  Whether or not I am sophomoric, you have your opinions, glad you shared them.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Busted Knuckles on May 01, 2017, 07:49:16 AM
The "convergence of still and vid" has already happened, but the two forms of image capture are different.  Canon delivers a dSLR that is an evolution of a tried and true ergonomic design that works right for portraits, action, and wildlife. 

The shape and controls of the dSLR simply don't work as well for handheld video, but Canon recognized before Nikon or Sony the market for a device that could catch supplemental video during a stills shoot, say at weddings and other events.  Clever videographers saw the amazing potential that dSLR lenses brought to video and exploited them effectively.

Which led enthusiastic amateurs to think they had a cheaper, single device route to making great movies and take top quality stills too.  A new industry formed to make brackets and counterbalances and other gadgets which work around the ergonomic limitations of the dSLR.

The car analogy isn't working for me.  Maybe something with cooking?  A conventional oven is great for baking and roasting.  A microwave for quick heating, "cooking" a frozen dinner, maybe boiling water for tea or baby formula.  Years ago a few manufacturers tried making microwaves that had browning elements (maybe there are still some being made).  But most cooks, from occasional to professionals, understood that a microwave could never bake well, and an oven was too slow for frozen prepared meals.  Which is why most kitchens have an oven and a microwave.

Wonderfully balanced, ergonomically superb video cameras with sensors, light meter, AF, and IS designed for videography are available in all price ranges.  Same with stills cameras.

Ok, I'll play along with the vehicle analogy.  Comparing brands of passenger vehicles doesn't make sense when, in fact, the OP is arguing that every car should be a pickup truck, and every pickup truck should be a car.  Here in the USA we had a rare bird of a vehicle called an El Camino, a hybrid, a car with a bed and tailgate.  It is now a curiosity, a collector's item.

Nice reference to the El Camino.  2 pts for sure :).  Ergonomics is a tough topic.  Vid cams are set up w/ thumb on bottom (right hand mostly I suspect) whereas stills are set up w/ thumb on top.  Why?  Perhaps it is the way we would use a handheld telescope? 

When I bring my hand to my face the natural position is thumb on bottom - three point stability you have to exert effort to move the thumb to the top - some of the early digitals (minolta/sony etc) seemed to work in this direction, but it was against the convention of the 35mm stills camera.... so moving from the known to the unknown breaking as few conventions is typically easier in adoption.  Heck, I don't really know, but like most the posters on this site, I have an opinion - even if it is my first post (which it isn't :) )

I recall an article about one of the 1st Red Dragons shooting 14-16 mp, global shutter, huge DR, etc and certainly at that price point stills and vid have converged.  I suspect in about 12-24 months that convergence will be at a much lower price point.

And for those who don't think you need FPS in the 20s, 30s and beyond.  There are some wonderful educational vids on B&H from the wildlife shooter that explains the benefit have having to toss out 15 out of 16 frames and that one, just that one, ends up on the cover of a major publication.  And it happens several times.  He has one particularly funny story about setting up next to a single framer who self righteously expressed a single press of the button well timed is all that is needed.  And then the momma giraffe kissed the baby on the forehead the single button fired, and then the baby stuck out its tongue..... well the FPS guy got the shot, the single presser walked off in a bit of a huff.

Ahhh the art of it all, why does all this tech overwhelm the art of it all.  Well it doesn't.  The art is in the composition, in the huffing the gear in bad weather, odd hours, because you are determined to get the shot.  Yea it used to be you had to know exposure, developing, printing, etc.  Well tech certainly did take a huge chunk of this - not all but huge chunk, no doubt.  What tech didn't do was climb a tree, sit in blind for hours in a driving freezing rain storm, climb to 15k feet with 50lbs of gear to get a shot of a snow leopard, etc.

You can flame me all you want, it is a free country - at least pretty much free in the U.S. - I was pointing out that Canon left a hole, that it could easily fill.  Actually I am glad they didn't, if there was no competition, there would be far less innovation.

Happy clicks to all.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: ethanz on May 01, 2017, 10:09:43 AM

You can flame me all you want, it is a free country - at least pretty much free in the U.S. - I was pointing out that Canon left a hole, that it could easily fill.  Actually I am glad they didn't, if there was no competition, there would be far less innovation.


I think we can all agree that more competition is indeed better for us.  ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Mr. Milo on May 01, 2017, 10:30:56 AM
Mercedes &BMW are still a profitable automobile manufacturers, but you have to admit the brand managers blew it some 20 years ago by not crushing the upstart Japanese entrants into to the luxo market.  And now there is even the Korean entrants.... so much for being content with modest growth, etc.

Canon will continue to be a profitable imaging device company, There is still a bit of cache left to the Merc, but the real function buyers are moving away from Merc/BMW at a pretty good clip and both those institutional brands are scrambling to get to the front of the parade.  And scrambling in a ham handed way.

I just took the 5DmkIV for a 2 week spin.  Yes it produced great still images..... as did the Sony...  But when I went to video mode.... well I don't want to be known a basher so I will leave it there.

Canon for all the world feels like the lumbering Mercedes of the early 90s trying to get it's head wrapped around the demands of the younger generation.  You have to admit Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc.  And perhaps shortly Canon will glide path into a feature competitive offering while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage until they land on the right config.

I can remember the debates of the establishment PDA (palm pilot) expressing that people really didn't want a swiss army knife does it all single device.......  If you can remember palm pilot or even fortunately the Apple Note..... 

The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Yep pretty disappointed in the Mk IV and won't be upgrading anytime soon.  If I do it will be a brand change.

What was the point of this post? You just took a dump on Canon. Many of us are Canon fanboys so that's not going respond well here. Your post is lame. I understand that the Mark IV is lacking in the video department so I'd get the Canon C100 Mark II instead. Sony and Nikon still doesn't have crap on Canon's lenses though. Canon is unrivaled there.

I use the 24-70mm Mark II and 70-200mm Mark II daily. Sony, Sigma, Tamron, and Nikon are not beating those zooms anytime.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: YuengLinger on May 01, 2017, 02:02:04 PM
Yes, the world is still waiting for compelling wild life photos.  Maybe, just maybe, we'll finally get something worthwhile if only Canon were a bit more competitive than Sony.

On a side note, one of my favorite Little Feat songs is "Don't Bogart that Joint."
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: docsmith on May 01, 2017, 02:31:46 PM
Did I miss it, or what Sony were you comparing the 5DIV against?

Just wondering if size/weight were factors but maybe you should have been comparing an M5 or M6 vs a A6500.

BTW, I'd be curious as to the pros/cons.  Why did you like the Sony so much more?
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Maiaibing on May 01, 2017, 04:15:21 PM
I use the 24-70mm Mark II and 70-200mm Mark II daily. Sony, Sigma, Tamron, and Nikon are not beating those zooms anytime.
Except that the new Nikon 7+-200mm by all accounts is somewhat better...
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: privatebydesign on May 01, 2017, 04:29:43 PM
I use the 24-70mm Mark II and 70-200mm Mark II daily. Sony, Sigma, Tamron, and Nikon are not beating those zooms anytime.
Except that the new Nikon 7+-200mm by all accounts is somewhat better...

Somewhat better than what? If you want a 70-135 at minimum close focusing then yes it is definitely 'better'. No end of Nikon users hate the 70-200 f2.8VR II because of the very bad focus breathing. For sports and general shooters using it with subjects at further distances, yes, they love it, it is just about on a par with the Canon IS MkII for sharpness and contrast. Portrait shooters are pretty universally hating it though.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Busted Knuckles on May 01, 2017, 07:40:24 PM
Giggle and snort, never mentioned size nor weight as an issue - though it would be part of ergonomics.

I hate to answer a question with a question but......  Do you think the IV stands up to the 4k offerings of any other entry level 4k offering starting at $3,600 ish? 

As to buffer on 20 fps good point - haven't seen the stats on that, though SD cards can write 300 ish m/s.  Though it is a fair question what the buffer clear will be.  And 300 should suit 4k at 60 fps.  Boggles the mind what the file size would be.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Busted Knuckles on May 01, 2017, 07:43:08 PM
Oh yea, I really didn't dump on Canon - I pointed out that they left a hole that someone else is filling
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Mikehit on May 02, 2017, 05:16:18 AM


I hate to answer a question with a question but......  Do you think the IV stands up to the 4k offerings of any other entry level 4k offering starting at $3,600 ish? 



No. But when in your OP you say
Quote
The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.
(my emphasis)

and from that it is clear that you place video higher on your list than most stills shooters do. And that is the nub of the issue. You (like others) want a Sony-standard 4k. Canon on the other hand made a decision that the 4k they have put in the camera suit the way most people what shoot stills with a bit of video go about it. Canon reckons that those sort of casual videographers don't spend time post-editing so don't need the full capability Sony offers.
Canon is doing what it does best - looks after the market as a whole.



Quote
Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc
Remind me what their market share is again. And can you offer any data on how the arrival of the A7Rii boosted their market - this last one is out of interest because I have no idea.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: jeffa4444 on May 02, 2017, 11:09:34 AM
Mercedes &BMW are still a profitable automobile manufacturers, but you have to admit the brand managers blew it some 20 years ago by not crushing the upstart Japanese entrants into to the luxo market.  And now there is even the Korean entrants.... so much for being content with modest growth, etc.

Canon will continue to be a profitable imaging device company, There is still a bit of cache left to the Merc, but the real function buyers are moving away from Merc/BMW at a pretty good clip and both those institutional brands are scrambling to get to the front of the parade.  And scrambling in a ham handed way.

I just took the 5DmkIV for a 2 week spin.  Yes it produced great still images..... as did the Sony...  But when I went to video mode.... well I don't want to be known a basher so I will leave it there.

Canon for all the world feels like the lumbering Mercedes of the early 90s trying to get it's head wrapped around the demands of the younger generation.  You have to admit Sony has made great strides in overall market share, etc.  And perhaps shortly Canon will glide path into a feature competitive offering while Sony fires off technology fuselage after fuselage until they land on the right config.

I can remember the debates of the establishment PDA (palm pilot) expressing that people really didn't want a swiss army knife does it all single device.......  If you can remember palm pilot or even fortunately the Apple Note..... 

The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Yep pretty disappointed in the Mk IV and won't be upgrading anytime soon.  If I do it will be a brand change.

In the last few months Ive driven a Mercedes GLC, C Class, E Class, a Jaguar XF all after having a BMW 5 series for years (various models). I also drove Lexus, Kia, Honda but ultimately I'm going back to the new BMW 5 Series. The Germans have the Koreans and Japanese beat particularly BMW I don't know what cars you've driven but frankly your wrong all the luxury German brands are up on sales globally.

I have the Canon 5DS, 6D and have spent the last week using a company 5D MKIV. For the UK price the MKIV is over-valued and unless the price drops below £ 3K then I will not be purchasing one, period. If the 6D MKII is a worthy successor then I will be purchasing one.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: docsmith on May 02, 2017, 04:02:52 PM
Giggle and snort, never mentioned size nor weight as an issue - though it would be part of ergonomics.

I hate to answer a question with a question but......  Do you think the IV stands up to the 4k offerings of any other entry level 4k offering starting at $3,600 ish? 

As to buffer on 20 fps good point - haven't seen the stats on that, though SD cards can write 300 ish m/s.  Though it is a fair question what the buffer clear will be.  And 300 should suit 4k at 60 fps.  Boggles the mind what the file size would be.

Actually, I am not even sure you mentioned ergonomics....nor really what you preferred with some Sony camera.

But...if we are just talking general market strategy, where I disagree with you is that BMW/Mercedes likely had very limited ability to stop the evolution of Lexus, Acura, etc.  Change is inevitable.  Competition is going to come and go.  In all likelihood, BMW/Mercedes did the best they could at specific moments.  I doubt an evolved/mature luxury car market was ever going to be dominated by just two manufacturers.

Same is true with cameras.  I expect there to be competition in a mature camera market.  Sony, Nikon, whomever.  In 10 years, someone else will likely rise up.  No big deal as long as Canon takes care of their business, which they have.  They have a distinctive edge in many ways (lenses, big lenses, action/sports, etc), are among the class leaders in others (portrait/event photography), may be lagging behind in some specific ways but have recent solid entrants (sensors/mirrorless), and are leaving part of the market to others (still cameras with 4K video), for now. 

Overall, I'd take that business along with the market share every day of the week.  It's really very remarkable.

Of course, that isn't taking anything away from Sony, who have had some great innovations and grown their market share.  Actually, I do not care much about 4K video, but have to admit, I'd like to have the high fps video as I think that would be fun to play with.  If anything, Nikon is the group that has recently fallen, but I hope they gather themselves and I like some of their recent lens releases (105 f/1.4).
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Kit Lens Jockey on May 04, 2017, 11:46:52 AM
I was impressed by the things the A9 had when it was announced, but I feel very little draw to switch from Canon.

Either one of the current cameras have the capability to take better photos or videos than anything that was available even a few years ago. With the overall level that camera technology is at, if you are not able to capture something amazing with either an A9 or a 5D4, switching to the other is probably not going to give you the ability to do that.

Face it, all we're doing is sitting around arguing which paintbrush has slightly stiffer bristles.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Sporgon on May 04, 2017, 12:15:54 PM

You know why I like the BMW?

it's a pure driving machine

We could argue over that ! Marketing hype. Try taking one of the recent BMWs on the track with all the electronic traction and stability controls switched off. With the exception of a couple of the 'M's they are dogs. Personally I think BMW have sold their souls to the American market.

If you want to try something that is close to the 'pure driving machine' try something like a Caterham Super 7  :D

However I agree with you on Canon  ;)
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Jerryrigged on May 10, 2017, 07:13:04 PM
I'm really liking my 5D4.  I also just started to shoot more video.  Nevertheless, most of my wedding gigs for this year are for photography, and only a few for videography. So the 5D4 is a really great solution for me.  However, I also picked up a Sony A6500 to help with the video chores and as a light camera to use on a gimbal.  The Sony produces really nice video, and I've worked with it just enough to get video settings dialed in so I rarely have to do a deep dive into the terrible menu system.  The 5D4, while not getting much love for video still has some really compelling video features.  The dual pixel autofocus works amazing, the operation of the camera is just so intuitive, it is a pleasure to use. AND, the video looks beautiful... whether I'm shooting 4K or 1080p. To get me though a day - not knowing exactly how much I'll shoot 4K and how much will be 1080p, I also invested in 256 GB CF and SD cards (the SD card selected to ensure it can keep up with Canon's massive 500 Mbps data rate). By the way, as a long time Quality Manager, I've always felt the most important feature of anything you buy is the reliability... so I'll take the Lexus or Toyota any day!
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: quod on May 10, 2017, 09:00:47 PM
So far, Canon still has the glass to beat.
Until you shoot Zeiss.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Ian_of_glos on May 11, 2017, 06:55:55 AM
It would be helpful if you went into specifics, as I'm looking to buy a Mark IV. Interesting that the salesman at Canon told me going to a Mark IV was like going from a Toyota to a Mercedes. That kind of had the opposite effect on me, as my current Toyota has over 200k miles and is still going strong and the only Mercedes owner I know is sorry he bought the thing, as parts cost a fortune.
There were a lot of negative reviews of the 5D mk4 when it first came out, mostly from the video community and I must confess that this caused me to delay my decision to upgrade from the 5D mk 3. However, last week I finally decided to buy a 5D mk4 and all I can say is that I wish I had done so sooner.
There are many small improvements that add up to a much better overall package than the mk3, even if there is no one remarkable feature that is a game changer.
I particularly like are the improved image quality as it really shows what some of my better lenses can do. Also I like the rear LCD monitor which is a lot clearer, much better than the mk3, and its ability to focus very quickly even when it is almost dark.
Yes, I know it is possible to buy a camera that having better video features, but I find that 1080p is more than adequate for what I do. 
Knowing what I know now I would definitely make the same decision again and this time I would not hesitate before upgrading.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Rockskipper on May 11, 2017, 09:21:27 AM
It would be helpful if you went into specifics, as I'm looking to buy a Mark IV. Interesting that the salesman at Canon told me going to a Mark IV was like going from a Toyota to a Mercedes. That kind of had the opposite effect on me, as my current Toyota has over 200k miles and is still going strong and the only Mercedes owner I know is sorry he bought the thing, as parts cost a fortune.
There were a lot of negative reviews of the 5D mk4 when it first came out, mostly from the video community and I must confess that this caused me to delay my decision to upgrade from the 5D mk 3. However, last week I finally decided to buy a 5D mk4 and all I can say is that I wish I had done so sooner.

Knowing what I know now I would definitely make the same decision again and this time I would not hesitate before upgrading.

Thanks for your comment - am ordering one today from Canon.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: arthurbikemad on May 11, 2017, 10:24:34 AM
Me too, even though DPAF/touch screen AF and the new metering etc etc is no big upgrade from my Mk3  ::)
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: LonelyBoy on May 11, 2017, 10:42:35 AM
The self righteous stills shooters not wanting to have to pay for all that video overhead in software, hardware and price remind me a lot of my ex wife who insisted on having 2 devices PDA and phone, and now updates to the new apple as soon as it is released.

Cool story bro.  Only, your ex (no wonder she's your ex, btw) wanted both the PDA and the phone.  Rolling video into my DSLR doesn't help me not carry around a video camera; it makes me subsidize your camera.  Personally, I wish they'd all drop the video features from DSLRs and all the self-righteous video shooters would buy video cameras or cry themselves to sleep at night.  Then I could lick up all the tears like Cartman.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: unfocused on May 11, 2017, 12:10:34 PM
Rolling video into my DSLR doesn't help me not carry around a video camera; it makes me subsidize your camera.  Personally, I wish they'd all drop the video features from DSLRs and all the self-righteous video shooters would buy video cameras or cry themselves to sleep at night...

How many times do we have to listen to this?

Having video features on a DSLR takes nothing away from a stills camera. It doesn't add a penny to the cost. In fact, it reduces the cost.

I may never use video on my DSLRs, but I certainly am not going to begrudge anyone who does.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: K on May 11, 2017, 01:31:22 PM
So far, Canon still has the glass to beat.


This is a fact. Will not deny it.

However, Nikon glass, for any reasonable and practical purpose outside of the most fanatical pixel peeping scrutiny - is just as good in 95% of cases and pretty darn close in the rest. I'm not aware of any lens of Nikon that beats Canon, but there might be 1 or 2.

If you can't deliver top level results with Nikon's top of the line glass, the problem is not the gear.

I think this is overemphasized in order to justify the weaker in features Canon bodies.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Mikehit on May 11, 2017, 01:42:38 PM
Rolling video into my DSLR doesn't help me not carry around a video camera; it makes me subsidize your camera.  Personally, I wish they'd all drop the video features from DSLRs and all the self-righteous video shooters would buy video cameras or cry themselves to sleep at night...

How many times do we have to listen to this?

Having video features on a DSLR takes nothing away from a stills camera. It doesn't add a penny to the cost. In fact, it reduces the cost.

I may never use video on my DSLRs, but I certainly am not going to begrudge anyone who does.

What makes you think adding video to a stills camera does not add a penny to the cost?
You can argue (and I suspect you are) that adding it widens the market for the camera and so adds sales where the income offsets the cost of adding video, but that is one massive set of assumptions.
So you have to ask 'if we did not add video would sales drop'. It may well do considering specs drive the sale-ability and the quality of reviews from people who merely measure against the spec sheet.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: LonelyBoy on May 11, 2017, 02:05:51 PM
Rolling video into my DSLR doesn't help me not carry around a video camera; it makes me subsidize your camera.  Personally, I wish they'd all drop the video features from DSLRs and all the self-righteous video shooters would buy video cameras or cry themselves to sleep at night...

How many times do we have to listen to this?

Having video features on a DSLR takes nothing away from a stills camera. It doesn't add a penny to the cost. In fact, it reduces the cost.

I may never use video on my DSLRs, but I certainly am not going to begrudge anyone who does.

Prove it.  Not that Nikon Df either, which was a special case.  Every time video is truly "just thrown in" the video freaks whine and complain that it doesn't have the right formats, bit rates, ports, modes, compression, etc that they need.  Those things DO add to the price; that's why they aren't on the stills cameras.  It's very much a "give a mouse a cookie" situation.

And I was really echoing the dismissive attitude of the OP.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Act444 on May 19, 2017, 11:10:44 AM
It would be helpful if you went into specifics, as I'm looking to buy a Mark IV. Interesting that the salesman at Canon told me going to a Mark IV was like going from a Toyota to a Mercedes. That kind of had the opposite effect on me, as my current Toyota has over 200k miles and is still going strong and the only Mercedes owner I know is sorry he bought the thing, as parts cost a fortune.
There were a lot of negative reviews of the 5D mk4 when it first came out, mostly from the video community and I must confess that this caused me to delay my decision to upgrade from the 5D mk 3. However, last week I finally decided to buy a 5D mk4 and all I can say is that I wish I had done so sooner.
There are many small improvements that add up to a much better overall package than the mk3, even if there is no one remarkable feature that is a game changer.
I particularly like are the improved image quality as it really shows what some of my better lenses can do. Also I like the rear LCD monitor which is a lot clearer, much better than the mk3, and its ability to focus very quickly even when it is almost dark.
Yes, I know it is possible to buy a camera that having better video features, but I find that 1080p is more than adequate for what I do. 
Knowing what I know now I would definitely make the same decision again and this time I would not hesitate before upgrading.

I went through a similar phase - I initially was resistant to upgrading - didn't like the big increase in MP or the softer default output...but after weighing a 1DX for action and deciding against it, I settled on the IV as a good compromise to get improved AF for action shooting while keeping size and noise level down. I liked it enough that eventually I decided to give up my old III. It's the little things that improve the overall shooting experience - and actually, the keeper rate as well. And the increased MP has become useful because I have more room to crop and still maintain 300 dpi if I want to print. Overall, it's a solid upgrade (if not a leap).

Only two complaints, really: buffer too small - should be able to shoot at least 22-23 RAW before filling - and weaken the AA filter or better yet, eliminate it altogether. Fortunately, for the latter, I can turn to my 5DSR.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: RayValdez360 on May 19, 2017, 12:21:39 PM
People are (very slowly) moving away from canon, mainly videographers. I have met so many people that switched. If people werent moving away why do you think so many Sony  videographers are using Canon lenses. I did press conference yesterday and I seen  two of the bigger companies uses fs7 with  70-200 canon lenses. 
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: GHPhotography on May 19, 2017, 01:17:24 PM
People are (very slowly) moving away from canon, mainly videographers. I have met so many people that switched. If people werent moving away why do you think so many Sony  videographers are using Canon lenses. I did press conference yesterday and I seen  two of the bigger companies uses fs7 with  70-200 canon lenses.

Market share would suggest the opposite, Canon is gaining ground while others are losing it. Now, this is for ILCs in general, you may be 100% correct for run and gun/budget filmmakers, but Canon's strategy of limiting video features on DSLRs and selling dedicated video cameras seems to be working for the company as a whole.

On a side note- if Canon were to release a global shutter DSLR/MILC next year with a decent 4K codec they would probably dominate the video market as well, simply because so many people are familiar with their bodies and already have lenses.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: LonelyBoy on May 20, 2017, 06:36:08 AM
I would phrase it as "some people are very slowly moving away from Canon, and others are moving more quickly to Canon".

Certainly I feel zero regret about my choice to go with Canon again a few years ago, when I started shooting again.

Oh and I still love the crap out of my Lexus GX460.
Title: Re: Mercedes vs. Lexus.... huh? A 2 week spin w/ a Mk IV
Post by: Keith_Reeder on May 31, 2017, 09:36:18 AM
Dear God, these "Canon hasn't made me my personal perfect camera, so they're stuffed" posts are tedious.

And - in particular, OP - the epitome of self-righteousness...

Oh, and being disinterested in some arbitrary feature that you happen to have a hard-on for, doesn't make stills-shooters self-righteous.

It makes them - what's the word? - Oh yeah...

Disinterested.

Different things, see?