canon rumors FORUM

Cinema & Videography => Cinema EOS Rumors => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on February 07, 2018, 01:17:11 PM

Title: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: Canon Rumors on February 07, 2018, 01:17:11 PM
We haven’t heard of a follow-up to the Canon XC15, but there’s little doubt that we will see one some time.

The first specification list for the XC20 has appeared at New Camera.

Canon XC20 Rumored Specification:

We’ll try to confirm if and when a follow-up to the XC15 is coming.

Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: transpo1 on February 07, 2018, 07:27:20 PM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: bhf3737 on February 07, 2018, 08:13:12 PM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.
Do you know of any camera, any brand, in this form factor, with APS-C or lager sensor, that can shoot internal 4K 60P? Just curious.
Reading forums, it seems that the camera that everyone talks about and compares new offerings with does record internal 4K, 60P, 4:2:2, 10 bit. But no one is producing that "unicorn".
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: MaxDiesel on February 07, 2018, 08:31:48 PM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.

This update needs at minimum a non variable f-stop lens, f/2.8 minimum. If they do this, they will have a winner.
What your asking for is basically the C100 line. That’s not what this is designed to be.

I have a feeling “patents” they will give us a hybrid “camcorder” of sorts soon, it won’t be the cinema line, more prosumer.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: transpo1 on February 07, 2018, 08:32:27 PM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.
Do you know of any camera, any brand, in this form factor, with APS-C or lager sensor, that can shoot internal 4K 60P? Just curious.
Reading forums, it seems that the camera that everyone talks about and compares new offerings with does record internal 4K, 60P, 4:2:2, 10 bit. But no one is producing that "unicorn".

Well,

1) Canon is the only manufacturer with THAT form factor, so the answer to that question is no if you include that. However, the GH5/s does 4K 60p and so does the 1DXII.

2) Just because no one is doing it does not mean no one SHOULD do it. This is against Canon’s conservative mentality, but it would be a great way to create a buzz around their video products again (at least, on the consumer / prosumer end).
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: bhf3737 on February 07, 2018, 08:58:01 PM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.
Do you know of any camera, any brand, in this form factor, with APS-C or lager sensor, that can shoot internal 4K 60P? Just curious.
Reading forums, it seems that the camera that everyone talks about and compares new offerings with does record internal 4K, 60P, 4:2:2, 10 bit. But no one is producing that "unicorn".

Well,

1) Canon is the only manufacturer with THAT form factor, so the answer to that question is no if you include that. However, the GH5/s does 4K 60p and so does the 1DXII.

2) Just because no one is doing it does not mean no one SHOULD do it. This is against Canon’s conservative mentality, but it would be a great way to create a buzz around their video products again (at least, on the consumer / prosumer end).
By form factor, I meant still camera form as opposed to a dedicated video camera (ENG video cam, etc.).
Although GH5/s does impressive 4K 60p, it has micro-four-third sensor, quite smaller that APS-C and full frame and has crop factor of 2 compared to full-frame, which actually reads smaller area than 5D IV's 1.74 crop.
I agree that some company should stand up and make it happen.
Seems no other company has done it yet, except Canon, as you mentioned.     
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: mkabi on February 07, 2018, 10:12:44 PM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.
Do you know of any camera, any brand, in this form factor, with APS-C or lager sensor, that can shoot internal 4K 60P? Just curious.
Reading forums, it seems that the camera that everyone talks about and compares new offerings with does record internal 4K, 60P, 4:2:2, 10 bit. But no one is producing that "unicorn".

Well,

1) Canon is the only manufacturer with THAT form factor, so the answer to that question is no if you include that. However, the GH5/s does 4K 60p and so does the 1DXII.

2) Just because no one is doing it does not mean no one SHOULD do it. This is against Canon’s conservative mentality, but it would be a great way to create a buzz around their video products again (at least, on the consumer / prosumer end).
By form factor, I meant still camera form as opposed to a dedicated video camera (ENG video cam, etc.).
Although GH5/s does impressive 4K 60p, it has micro-four-third sensor, quite smaller that APS-C and full frame and has crop factor of 2 compared to full-frame, which actually reads smaller area than 5D IV's 1.74 crop.
I agree that some company should stand up and make it happen.
Seems no other company has done it yet, except Canon, as you mentioned.   

I don’t know what your argument is here...
But, just for clarification...
-only the 1dx mark 2 does DCI 4K up to 60p with 1.35 crop from the FF sensor, but it’s 8 bit 4:2:2
-the 5D mark iv also has DCI 4K, but not 60p only up to 30p and 8bit 4:2:2 with 1.74 crop
-the 1dx mark 2 also has 1080p at 120fps where the 5Div maxes out at 60p on 1080p
-the GH5 has UHD at 60p and DCI 4K at 30p and depending on resolution + frame rate can do 10bit 4:2:2
-the GH5 has 6K (open-gate) anamorphic video (this is the most interesting thing for me)
-the GH5 has 1080p at 180fps
-the GH5S has DCI 4K at 60fps and better low-light, also has more 10bit 4:2:2 options but loses the 6K anamorphic.
-the GH5S has 1080p at 240fps
-both GH5 and GH5S are micro 4/3rd sensors, which is smaller than APS-C, but much much bigger than the 1inch sensor mentioned above.
-the GH5S has a slightly bigger sensor than GH5 - GH5 has 2.0 crop and GH5S has 1.86 crop. BTW, the GH4 has a 2.3 crop... it had something to do with how the sensor was being read.
-the GH5 has IBIS, whereas the GH5S loses the IBIS.
-speaking of crop factors, it really doesn’t matter for the GH5/GH5S, because look at their lens lineup... you will find lenses like the 12-35 f/2.8, 35-100 f/2.8, 42.5 f/1.7 - those focal lengths remind you of any Canon equivalents?
-even if you want to use your Canon lenses on the GH5/GH5S - metabones makes speedboosters that make the crop factors 1.2 and 1.1 (respectively) which is not only way better than the 5D mark iv but also better than the 1dx mark 2
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: bhf3737 on February 08, 2018, 01:56:33 AM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.
Do you know of any camera, any brand, in this form factor, with APS-C or lager sensor, that can shoot internal 4K 60P? Just curious.
Reading forums, it seems that the camera that everyone talks about and compares new offerings with does record internal 4K, 60P, 4:2:2, 10 bit. But no one is producing that "unicorn".

Well,

1) Canon is the only manufacturer with THAT form factor, so the answer to that question is no if you include that. However, the GH5/s does 4K 60p and so does the 1DXII.

2) Just because no one is doing it does not mean no one SHOULD do it. This is against Canon’s conservative mentality, but it would be a great way to create a buzz around their video products again (at least, on the consumer / prosumer end).
By form factor, I meant still camera form as opposed to a dedicated video camera (ENG video cam, etc.).
Although GH5/s does impressive 4K 60p, it has micro-four-third sensor, quite smaller that APS-C and full frame and has crop factor of 2 compared to full-frame, which actually reads smaller area than 5D IV's 1.74 crop.
I agree that some company should stand up and make it happen.
Seems no other company has done it yet, except Canon, as you mentioned.   

I don’t know what your argument is here...
But, just for clarification...
-only the 1dx mark 2 does DCI 4K up to 60p with 1.35 crop from the FF sensor, but it’s 8 bit 4:2:2
-the 5D mark iv also has DCI 4K, but not 60p only up to 30p and 8bit 4:2:2 with 1.74 crop
-the 1dx mark 2 also has 1080p at 120fps where the 5Div maxes out at 60p on 1080p
-the GH5 has UHD at 60p and DCI 4K at 30p and depending on resolution + frame rate can do 10bit 4:2:2
-the GH5 has 6K (open-gate) anamorphic video (this is the most interesting thing for me)
-the GH5 has 1080p at 180fps
-the GH5S has DCI 4K at 60fps and better low-light, also has more 10bit 4:2:2 options but loses the 6K anamorphic.
-the GH5S has 1080p at 240fps
-both GH5 and GH5S are micro 4/3rd sensors, which is smaller than APS-C, but much much bigger than the 1inch sensor mentioned above.
-the GH5S has a slightly bigger sensor than GH5 - GH5 has 2.0 crop and GH5S has 1.86 crop. BTW, the GH4 has a 2.3 crop... it had something to do with how the sensor was being read.
-the GH5 has IBIS, whereas the GH5S loses the IBIS.
-speaking of crop factors, it really doesn’t matter for the GH5/GH5S, because look at their lens lineup... you will find lenses like the 12-35 f/2.8, 35-100 f/2.8, 42.5 f/1.7 - those focal lengths remind you of any Canon equivalents?
-even if you want to use your Canon lenses on the GH5/GH5S - metabones makes speedboosters that make the crop factors 1.2 and 1.1 (respectively) which is not only way better than the 5D mark iv but also better than the 1dx mark 2
Interesting. Crop factors doesn't matter. Thanks for pointing out that we can use smaller sensor and get longer equivalent focal length via the native lenses. And also forget the laws of physics, light gathering and noise level, too. Interesting indeed.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: BurningPlatform on February 08, 2018, 04:19:05 AM

And also forget the laws of physics, light gathering and noise level, too. Interesting indeed.

Actually there is a point. The "speed boosters" are effectively wide angle converters, they concentrate the light that would be lost outside the MFT sensor area to the sensor. With a perfect "speed booster" you would get the same amount of light on the MFT sensor than on a full frame sensor. And if your FF sensor does cropped video, you get more light for each video frame with MFT.

This sounded like magic to me first, but it is really just physics.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: 9VIII on February 08, 2018, 04:23:37 AM
The reason the GH5 is still so compelling to videographers is that those people are generally very tolerant of image noise.
Kind of like photographers 20 years ago (or professionals who know what they’re doing today).
And again, Speed Boosters come with a big hit to IQ (I have no interest in using one on with my Fuji, there’s enough native wide/fast glass now), but that’s not such a big deal with video people.

This is an equally good argument for 1” sensors.
Ironically there should really be more 12 Megapixel bodies on the market (native 4k sensor at the 3:2 aspect ratio), it’s amazing how virtually nothing gives the best image with full sensor readout right now, and 4K “seems” to be one of the biggest selling points on many of these products.

I’d even be willing to try M4/3 if something like the G9 didn’t cost nearly as much as a Full Frame camera. The failure of systems like the Nikon 1 is they were trying to compete head to head larger formats but with the same features and price. Panasonic and Olympus are only surviving now because the video functions they offer are equivalent to much more expensive professional equipment, and all the APS-C makers are are primarily photography focused and don’t try to compete in that space at the same time, but as soon as you get competent 4K coming out of larger sensors the days of M4/3 will be numbered.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: brianftpc on February 08, 2018, 05:44:51 AM
But will it need a cfast 2.0 card to do 4k 60p. If so then you will need a card half the price of the camera for 1 hour of video.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: roxics on February 08, 2018, 10:37:42 AM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: mkabi on February 08, 2018, 10:55:30 AM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.
Do you know of any camera, any brand, in this form factor, with APS-C or lager sensor, that can shoot internal 4K 60P? Just curious.
Reading forums, it seems that the camera that everyone talks about and compares new offerings with does record internal 4K, 60P, 4:2:2, 10 bit. But no one is producing that "unicorn".

Well,

1) Canon is the only manufacturer with THAT form factor, so the answer to that question is no if you include that. However, the GH5/s does 4K 60p and so does the 1DXII.

2) Just because no one is doing it does not mean no one SHOULD do it. This is against Canon’s conservative mentality, but it would be a great way to create a buzz around their video products again (at least, on the consumer / prosumer end).
By form factor, I meant still camera form as opposed to a dedicated video camera (ENG video cam, etc.).
Although GH5/s does impressive 4K 60p, it has micro-four-third sensor, quite smaller that APS-C and full frame and has crop factor of 2 compared to full-frame, which actually reads smaller area than 5D IV's 1.74 crop.
I agree that some company should stand up and make it happen.
Seems no other company has done it yet, except Canon, as you mentioned.   

I don’t know what your argument is here...
But, just for clarification...
-only the 1dx mark 2 does DCI 4K up to 60p with 1.35 crop from the FF sensor, but it’s 8 bit 4:2:2
-the 5D mark iv also has DCI 4K, but not 60p only up to 30p and 8bit 4:2:2 with 1.74 crop
-the 1dx mark 2 also has 1080p at 120fps where the 5Div maxes out at 60p on 1080p
-the GH5 has UHD at 60p and DCI 4K at 30p and depending on resolution + frame rate can do 10bit 4:2:2
-the GH5 has 6K (open-gate) anamorphic video (this is the most interesting thing for me)
-the GH5 has 1080p at 180fps
-the GH5S has DCI 4K at 60fps and better low-light, also has more 10bit 4:2:2 options but loses the 6K anamorphic.
-the GH5S has 1080p at 240fps
-both GH5 and GH5S are micro 4/3rd sensors, which is smaller than APS-C, but much much bigger than the 1inch sensor mentioned above.
-the GH5S has a slightly bigger sensor than GH5 - GH5 has 2.0 crop and GH5S has 1.86 crop. BTW, the GH4 has a 2.3 crop... it had something to do with how the sensor was being read.
-the GH5 has IBIS, whereas the GH5S loses the IBIS.
-speaking of crop factors, it really doesn’t matter for the GH5/GH5S, because look at their lens lineup... you will find lenses like the 12-35 f/2.8, 35-100 f/2.8, 42.5 f/1.7 - those focal lengths remind you of any Canon equivalents?
-even if you want to use your Canon lenses on the GH5/GH5S - metabones makes speedboosters that make the crop factors 1.2 and 1.1 (respectively) which is not only way better than the 5D mark iv but also better than the 1dx mark 2
Interesting. Crop factors doesn't matter. Thanks for pointing out that we can use smaller sensor and get longer equivalent focal length via the native lenses. And also forget the laws of physics, light gathering and noise level, too. Interesting indeed.

Is that the go-to phrase in these photography forums, if you don't understand something? Cause its really clichéd.

In any case, I'm not claiming to know better.... but you are.... so I say that you take it up with Panasonic Engineers. Go argue with them that they aren't obeying "the laws of physics, light gathering and noise levels..." boo hoo hoo...

Because, they created these lenses (not me):

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1304868-REG/panasonic_h_hsa12035_lumix_g_x_vario.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1304869-REG/panasonic_h_hsa35100_lumix_g_x_vario.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1023336-REG/panasonic_leica_dg_nocticron_42_5mm.html/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAh_DTBRCTARIsABlT9MYUqDgO64up3DRnZqNj6JDlJrMjGD6to8nDajcTMlsP8bHLP6oHpJEaAkJDEALw_wcB

Editted to add: The link for Panasonic's 42.5mm is for the 1.2 not the 1.7 (they have one of those too). And, thats their 85mm - FF equivalent lens (btw, equivalency is also outlined in the links). Ofcourse, Canon has a larger lens lineup, but the question is... why do you care if Canon has a larger lens lineup? Are you going to buy every single one? Just the important ones right? Just the ones you can afford right?
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: rrcphoto on February 08, 2018, 11:12:58 AM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: dp3294 on February 08, 2018, 11:56:39 AM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Different tools for different jobs. A camcorder and a DSLR are two different things. Those who want the DSLR would love to have the 90D with 4K to satisfy that. But there are others who can use something such as the XC20 also.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: transpo1 on February 08, 2018, 01:50:03 PM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)

Then tell us who the market is for this.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: transpo1 on February 08, 2018, 01:55:06 PM
Well, 4K 60p would be something. Now try it with an EF or EF-M mount and APS-C Sensor.
Do you know of any camera, any brand, in this form factor, with APS-C or lager sensor, that can shoot internal 4K 60P? Just curious.
Reading forums, it seems that the camera that everyone talks about and compares new offerings with does record internal 4K, 60P, 4:2:2, 10 bit. But no one is producing that "unicorn".

Well,

1) Canon is the only manufacturer with THAT form factor, so the answer to that question is no if you include that. However, the GH5/s does 4K 60p and so does the 1DXII.

2) Just because no one is doing it does not mean no one SHOULD do it. This is against Canon’s conservative mentality, but it would be a great way to create a buzz around their video products again (at least, on the consumer / prosumer end).
By form factor, I meant still camera form as opposed to a dedicated video camera (ENG video cam, etc.).
Although GH5/s does impressive 4K 60p, it has micro-four-third sensor, quite smaller that APS-C and full frame and has crop factor of 2 compared to full-frame, which actually reads smaller area than 5D IV's 1.74 crop.
I agree that some company should stand up and make it happen.
Seems no other company has done it yet, except Canon, as you mentioned.   

I don’t know what your argument is here...
But, just for clarification...
-only the 1dx mark 2 does DCI 4K up to 60p with 1.35 crop from the FF sensor, but it’s 8 bit 4:2:2
-the 5D mark iv also has DCI 4K, but not 60p only up to 30p and 8bit 4:2:2 with 1.74 crop
-the 1dx mark 2 also has 1080p at 120fps where the 5Div maxes out at 60p on 1080p
-the GH5 has UHD at 60p and DCI 4K at 30p and depending on resolution + frame rate can do 10bit 4:2:2
-the GH5 has 6K (open-gate) anamorphic video (this is the most interesting thing for me)
-the GH5 has 1080p at 180fps
-the GH5S has DCI 4K at 60fps and better low-light, also has more 10bit 4:2:2 options but loses the 6K anamorphic.
-the GH5S has 1080p at 240fps
-both GH5 and GH5S are micro 4/3rd sensors, which is smaller than APS-C, but much much bigger than the 1inch sensor mentioned above.
-the GH5S has a slightly bigger sensor than GH5 - GH5 has 2.0 crop and GH5S has 1.86 crop. BTW, the GH4 has a 2.3 crop... it had something to do with how the sensor was being read.
-the GH5 has IBIS, whereas the GH5S loses the IBIS.
-speaking of crop factors, it really doesn’t matter for the GH5/GH5S, because look at their lens lineup... you will find lenses like the 12-35 f/2.8, 35-100 f/2.8, 42.5 f/1.7 - those focal lengths remind you of any Canon equivalents?
-even if you want to use your Canon lenses on the GH5/GH5S - metabones makes speedboosters that make the crop factors 1.2 and 1.1 (respectively) which is not only way better than the 5D mark iv but also better than the 1dx mark 2
Interesting. Crop factors doesn't matter. Thanks for pointing out that we can use smaller sensor and get longer equivalent focal length via the native lenses. And also forget the laws of physics, light gathering and noise level, too. Interesting indeed.

With a Metabones XL, the GH5s will produce a 4K 60p image with a crop factor equal to or less than the 1DXII. Just to clarify for everyone.

Canon would sell a crapload of cameras if they made a mirrorless APS-C ILC that could do the same (and they would make money if they overprice it as they normally do).

But their conservative mentality prevents them from cannibalizing their own higher end products.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: EduPortas on February 08, 2018, 03:29:48 PM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)

Then tell us who the market is for this.

Apparently Canon intended the camera to be sold to journalists
that need a quick work turnaround with news agencies that requiere 4K video.

Other that that, it's used as a crash cam and maybe for some
run and gun productions (documentaries).

Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: RayValdez360 on February 08, 2018, 04:42:11 PM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)

Then tell us who the market is for this.

xc10 and xc15 owners obviously....
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: transpo1 on February 08, 2018, 04:44:56 PM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)

Then tell us who the market is for this.

xc10 and xc15 owners obviously....

Not exactly shooting for the stars here, are they?
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: rrcphoto on February 08, 2018, 05:20:06 PM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)

Then tell us who the market is for this.

run and gun ENG work. you DO realize this has canon's C300 codecs right?

Even eoshd admits this is a great and fun camera package for run and gun work, and they have been highly critical of Canon lately.

I know complaining about canon and video is what you do here, and not much else; but perhaps you need to educate yourself just a smidgen then ;)

https://www.eoshd.com/2016/06/canon-xc10-versus-sony-rx10-iii-the-canon-is-underrated/


Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: BillB on February 08, 2018, 07:56:49 PM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)

Then tell us who the market is for this.

xc10 and xc15 owners obviously....

Not exactly shooting for the stars here, are they?

Well, no they are not shooting for the stars.  What is your point?
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: bhf3737 on February 08, 2018, 08:58:17 PM
With a Metabones XL, the GH5s will produce a 4K 60p image with a crop factor equal to or less than the 1DXII. Just to clarify for everyone.
I am afraid that is not correct. The crop factor of MFT sensor is 2 and it cannot grow larger to something like 1.3 because it is limited by the physical size of the sensor that is 1/4 of a full frame 35mm sensor. It can only further be cropped to something smaller.
With a speed-booster like Metabones, you can get 1 to 1.3 stops more light into the MFT sensor, that will improve the noise performance at the expense of some hit on image quality. Also you get a slight narrower field of view, between 1.28 and 1.42, depending on the speed-booster version, i.e. 100mm FF lens will have field of view equivalent to 128-142mm.
Please see http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/sensor-crop-factors (http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/sensor-crop-factors) for reference.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: Talys on February 09, 2018, 12:26:12 AM

Is that the go-to phrase in these photography forums, if you don't understand something? Cause its really clichéd.


In any case, I'm not claiming to know better.... but you are.... so I say that you take it up with Panasonic Engineers. Go argue with them that they aren't obeying "the laws of physics, light gathering and noise levels..." boo hoo hoo...


No, it's not a go-to phrase to say that bigger lenses ==> bigger sensor ==> more light onto sensor ==> better SNR.

People who don't agree with that should join the flat earth society.

There is nothing wrong with smaller sensors + higher density = smaller camera.  If you choose that route, and those are your priority, good for you; I'm happy for you! 

Just keep in mind that there are plenty of photography and broadcast video professionals that rank size and weight near the bottom of what's important.  Like NBC covering the 2018 Olympics with Canon gear and filling up those shelves with 200-400+1.4TC, 1DX2's and whatever model of camcorder that is they have that I'll never be able to afford.

In the more mortal realm, Equivalent Zoom is only really meaningful on telephoto.  At the wide end, there is nothing equivalent about zoom and crop factors, and it can really mess you up if you think about it that way.  A 10mm rectilinear lens is a 10 mm rectilinear lens whether you're looking at a center crop or a full frame crop.  One is just the middle cut out.

In other words, with more megapixels at telephoto, you can mimic (hence equivalent) reach.  But on wide angle, if you have things that are both near and far, you can't mimic a full frame by just using a wider angle lens on crop, because going wider will dramatically change the perspective of the shot, if you have stuff both near and far from you.

Ofcourse, Canon has a larger lens lineup, but the question is... why do you care if Canon has a larger lens lineup? Are you going to buy every single one? Just the important ones right? Just the ones you can afford right?

If all you're going to buy are the common trinity zooms or all you want to shoot are weddings, then guess what?  Any system will have stuff you can use.

If you want something that is not the most popular, bread-and-butter lenses, then yes, it matters a lot. Different people want different things.  And sometimes, you grow to become interested in something, so you end up buying a lens that wasn't useful to you before.  Plus, often, Canon has a very good low-price alternatives high value stuff, if you want "pretty good, but on a budget".
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: 9VIII on February 09, 2018, 03:48:14 AM

Because, they created these lenses (not me):

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1304868-REG/panasonic_h_hsa12035_lumix_g_x_vario.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1304869-REG/panasonic_h_hsa35100_lumix_g_x_vario.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1023336-REG/panasonic_leica_dg_nocticron_42_5mm.html/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAh_DTBRCTARIsABlT9MYUqDgO64up3DRnZqNj6JDlJrMjGD6to8nDajcTMlsP8bHLP6oHpJEaAkJDEALw_wcB

Editted to add: The link for Panasonic's 42.5mm is for the 1.2 not the 1.7 (they have one of those too). And, thats their 85mm - FF equivalent lens (btw, equivalency is also outlined in the links). Ofcourse, Canon has a larger lens lineup, but the question is... why do you care if Canon has a larger lens lineup? Are you going to buy every single one? Just the important ones right? Just the ones you can afford right?

It’s hilarious how many people bought the snake oil M4/3 is selling.
Those zooms are f5.6 equivalent due to the small sensor, and the f1.2 lens will barely outperfrom the Nifty Fifty on a Rebel.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1226781-REG/mitakon_zhongyi_mtk35m95m2fx_speedmaster_35mm_f_0_95_mark.html
Now this is value for money.
The fact that it’s manual focus is a downside, but this is glass for a crop sensor that’s about as good as any Full Frame lens of equivalent price.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: mkabi on February 09, 2018, 03:39:28 PM

No, it's not a go-to phrase to say that bigger lenses ==> bigger sensor ==> more light onto sensor ==> better SNR.

People who don't agree with that should join the flat earth society.

Bwahahahaha.... alright...

However, if I can prove you wrong, will you join me in joining the flat earth society?

Okay... Lets not think about any other camera company (forget the whole mft segment)... lets strictly look at Canon and their cameras.

Rhetorical questions:

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 1dx mark 2 or the 5DSR?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 1dx mark 2 or the 1DS mark 3?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 80D or the 50D?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 80D or the 7D?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & different sensor size) - 80D or the 1dx mark 2? (This is the only time it will work in your favor - in terms of defining your logic above)

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & different sensor size) - 80D or Original 5D?

See... now.... you don't need to share your answers.... and I'm sure you've reached your own conclusions... but just to make sure your conclusions are similar to mine, is it really sensor size or the technology built within the sensor as well as behind the sensor that effects SNR?

Now, I know you are biased, as am I... as everyone... especially if you have invested so much time and money in that company. In this case, I strongly believe, without a doubt, that no matter what I say.... you're only going believe in what you believe in... and if you believe in Canon, then thats that....

But, nonetheless, lets see if you can be unbiased here...

I'm only assuming that you do not have any stakes in either Pentax or Olympus... thus making you a third party, unbiased judge of their technology.

Is it so hard to believe that Olympus has better technology than Pentax?

With that same reasoning, is it so hard to think that another company has better technology than Canon?

Lastly, read this:

https://petapixel.com/2017/03/24/battle-micro-43-camera-outsold-full-frame-dslr/

After reading that, ask yourself this... sure... bigger sensor might be better (and I am really thinking about medium format and large format tbh)... but if you can't hack it with a smaller sensor, then may be its time for you to partake in another career/hobby?


If all you're going to buy are the common trinity zooms or all you want to shoot are weddings, then guess what?  Any system will have stuff you can use.

If you want something that is not the most popular, bread-and-butter lenses, then yes, it matters a lot. Different people want different things.  And sometimes, you grow to become interested in something, so you end up buying a lens that wasn't useful to you before.  Plus, often, Canon has a very good low-price alternatives high value stuff, if you want "pretty good, but on a budget".

Can you please tell me and/or list those less popular, and/or bread-and-butter lenses? It will save us a lot of time if you can.... then tell me the price of them.


It’s hilarious how many people bought the snake oil M4/3 is selling.
Those zooms are f5.6 equivalent due to the small sensor, and the f1.2 lens will barely outperfrom the Nifty Fifty on a Rebel.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1226781-REG/mitakon_zhongyi_mtk35m95m2fx_speedmaster_35mm_f_0_95_mark.html
Now this is value for money.
The fact that it’s manual focus is a downside, but this is glass for a crop sensor that’s about as good as any Full Frame lens of equivalent price.

This brings up a good question...
FOV changes due to sensor size is obvious and relatively quantifiable.
But does speed of a lens change due to sensor size?
So, if I see f/2.8 on a lens.... thats how much I would expect it to let in light.... wide open its going to be f/2.8. The barrel of the lens does not automatically change shape to let in more light for a Full-frame as opposed to mft????

Lastly, you too should read this:
https://petapixel.com/2017/03/24/battle-micro-43-camera-outsold-full-frame-dslr/
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: bhf3737 on February 09, 2018, 04:26:40 PM

No, it's not a go-to phrase to say that bigger lenses ==> bigger sensor ==> more light onto sensor ==> better SNR.

People who don't agree with that should join the flat earth society.

Bwahahahaha.... alright...

However, if I can prove you wrong, will you join me in joining the flat earth society?

Okay... Lets not think about any other camera company (forget the whole mft segment)... lets strictly look at Canon and their cameras.

Rhetorical questions:

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 1dx mark 2 or the 5DSR?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 1dx mark 2 or the 1DS mark 3?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 80D or the 50D?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 80D or the 7D?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & different sensor size) - 80D or the 1dx mark 2? (This is the only time it will work in your favor - in terms of defining your logic above)

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & different sensor size) - 80D or Original 5D?

See... now.... you don't need to share your answers.... and I'm sure you've reached your own conclusions... but just to make sure your conclusions are similar to mine, is it really sensor size or the technology built within the sensor as well as behind the sensor that effects SNR?

Now, I know you are biased, as am I... as everyone... especially if you have invested so much time and money in that company. In this case, I strongly believe, without a doubt, that no matter what I say.... you're only going believe in what you believe in... and if you believe in Canon, then thats that....

But, nonetheless, lets see if you can be unbiased here...

I'm only assuming that you do not have any stakes in either Pentax or Olympus... thus making you a third party, unbiased judge of their technology.

Is it so hard to believe that Olympus has better technology than Pentax?

With that same reasoning, is it so hard to think that another company has better technology than Canon?

Lastly, read this:

https://petapixel.com/2017/03/24/battle-micro-43-camera-outsold-full-frame-dslr/

After reading that, ask yourself this... sure... bigger sensor might be better (and I am really thinking about medium format and large format tbh)... but if you can't hack it with a smaller sensor, then may be its time for you to partake in another career/hobby?


If all you're going to buy are the common trinity zooms or all you want to shoot are weddings, then guess what?  Any system will have stuff you can use.

If you want something that is not the most popular, bread-and-butter lenses, then yes, it matters a lot. Different people want different things.  And sometimes, you grow to become interested in something, so you end up buying a lens that wasn't useful to you before.  Plus, often, Canon has a very good low-price alternatives high value stuff, if you want "pretty good, but on a budget".

Can you please tell me and/or list those less popular, and/or bread-and-butter lenses? It will save us a lot of time if you can.... then tell me the price of them.


It’s hilarious how many people bought the snake oil M4/3 is selling.
Those zooms are f5.6 equivalent due to the small sensor, and the f1.2 lens will barely outperfrom the Nifty Fifty on a Rebel.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1226781-REG/mitakon_zhongyi_mtk35m95m2fx_speedmaster_35mm_f_0_95_mark.html
Now this is value for money.
The fact that it’s manual focus is a downside, but this is glass for a crop sensor that’s about as good as any Full Frame lens of equivalent price.

This brings up a good question...
FOV changes due to sensor size is obvious and relatively quantifiable.
But does speed of a lens change due to sensor size?
So, if I see f/2.8 on a lens.... thats how much I would expect it to let in light.... wide open its going to be f/2.8. The barrel of the lens does not automatically change shape to let in more light for a Full-frame as opposed to mft????

Lastly, you too should read this:
https://petapixel.com/2017/03/24/battle-micro-43-camera-outsold-full-frame-dslr/

Just a comment on your scientific inquiry method:
I think in is imprecise, speculative and misleading, because you are testing a hypothesis that:
"Technology (better SNR?) + smaller sensor size DOES surpass technology (weaker SNR?) + larger sensor size  in terms of light gathering capability."   

But your evidences are not clearly provided, you do not give any verifiable information, you do not have the data/chart to back up your claim and your reference is a mumble jumble from PetaPixels!
The flat-earth guys were doing very similar to Galileo Galilei and the scientists of their time.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: scyrene on February 09, 2018, 06:11:54 PM
2) Just because no one is doing it does not mean no one SHOULD do it. This is against Canon’s conservative mentality, but it would be a great way to create a buzz around their video products again (at least, on the consumer / prosumer end).

What is the point of 'buzz' if not to generate sales? If they are selling to their own satisfaction, why bother with buzz? (Especially if it requires a greater outlay).

And to some others here: the previous versions clearly sold well, or else they wouldn't be putting out newer versions. *Canon knows how to make money* So they aren't selling to you, big whoop. They have cracked a market all the same.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: Don Haines on February 09, 2018, 07:15:55 PM

Just keep in mind that there are plenty of photography and broadcast video professionals that rank size and weight near the bottom of what's important.  Like NBC covering the 2018 Olympics with Canon gear and filling up those shelves with 200-400+1.4TC, 1DX2's and whatever model of camcorder that is they have that I'll never be able to afford.


Size does matter when shooting video, but not in the way most people think....

I loved those ENG video cameras that rested on the shoulder, a support back to your waist battery belt, and the eye piece off to the side. That was perfect ergonomics for shooting video. You could see the video and where you were walking/ standing, and it was very stable.  None of those tiny consumer models ever came close.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: mkabi on February 09, 2018, 07:23:07 PM

No, it's not a go-to phrase to say that bigger lenses ==> bigger sensor ==> more light onto sensor ==> better SNR.

People who don't agree with that should join the flat earth society.

Bwahahahaha.... alright...

However, if I can prove you wrong, will you join me in joining the flat earth society?

Okay... Lets not think about any other camera company (forget the whole mft segment)... lets strictly look at Canon and their cameras.

Rhetorical questions:

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 1dx mark 2 or the 5DSR?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 1dx mark 2 or the 1DS mark 3?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 80D or the 50D?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & same sensor size) - 80D or the 7D?

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & different sensor size) - 80D or the 1dx mark 2? (This is the only time it will work in your favor - in terms of defining your logic above)

Which is better in terms of SNR (same lens & different sensor size) - 80D or Original 5D?

See... now.... you don't need to share your answers.... and I'm sure you've reached your own conclusions... but just to make sure your conclusions are similar to mine, is it really sensor size or the technology built within the sensor as well as behind the sensor that effects SNR?

Now, I know you are biased, as am I... as everyone... especially if you have invested so much time and money in that company. In this case, I strongly believe, without a doubt, that no matter what I say.... you're only going believe in what you believe in... and if you believe in Canon, then thats that....

But, nonetheless, lets see if you can be unbiased here...

I'm only assuming that you do not have any stakes in either Pentax or Olympus... thus making you a third party, unbiased judge of their technology.

Is it so hard to believe that Olympus has better technology than Pentax?

With that same reasoning, is it so hard to think that another company has better technology than Canon?

Lastly, read this:

https://petapixel.com/2017/03/24/battle-micro-43-camera-outsold-full-frame-dslr/

After reading that, ask yourself this... sure... bigger sensor might be better (and I am really thinking about medium format and large format tbh)... but if you can't hack it with a smaller sensor, then may be its time for you to partake in another career/hobby?


If all you're going to buy are the common trinity zooms or all you want to shoot are weddings, then guess what?  Any system will have stuff you can use.

If you want something that is not the most popular, bread-and-butter lenses, then yes, it matters a lot. Different people want different things.  And sometimes, you grow to become interested in something, so you end up buying a lens that wasn't useful to you before.  Plus, often, Canon has a very good low-price alternatives high value stuff, if you want "pretty good, but on a budget".

Can you please tell me and/or list those less popular, and/or bread-and-butter lenses? It will save us a lot of time if you can.... then tell me the price of them.


It’s hilarious how many people bought the snake oil M4/3 is selling.
Those zooms are f5.6 equivalent due to the small sensor, and the f1.2 lens will barely outperfrom the Nifty Fifty on a Rebel.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1226781-REG/mitakon_zhongyi_mtk35m95m2fx_speedmaster_35mm_f_0_95_mark.html
Now this is value for money.
The fact that it’s manual focus is a downside, but this is glass for a crop sensor that’s about as good as any Full Frame lens of equivalent price.

This brings up a good question...
FOV changes due to sensor size is obvious and relatively quantifiable.
But does speed of a lens change due to sensor size?
So, if I see f/2.8 on a lens.... thats how much I would expect it to let in light.... wide open its going to be f/2.8. The barrel of the lens does not automatically change shape to let in more light for a Full-frame as opposed to mft????

Lastly, you too should read this:
https://petapixel.com/2017/03/24/battle-micro-43-camera-outsold-full-frame-dslr/

Just a comment on your scientific inquiry method:
I think in is imprecise, speculative and misleading, because you are testing a hypothesis that:
"Technology (better SNR?) + smaller sensor size DOES surpass technology (weaker SNR?) + larger sensor size  in terms of light gathering capability."   

But your evidences are not clearly provided, you do not give any verifiable information, you do not have the data/chart to back up your claim and your reference is a mumble jumble from PetaPixels!
The flat-earth guys were doing very similar to Galileo Galilei and the scientists of their time.

Scientific method????

Not that I do not know what that is... but when did I say that I was using a scientific method?

Do you know what "Rhetorical" means? Whether you know or don't know what that means (if you don't know, I'm sure you can google the meaning), but don't you think that because I'm using "Rhetorical" questions that this whole thing is purely subjective - no objective findings here, thus scientific method is not being used?

Just for the record, the above highlighted in red is completely inferred, I never actually said that in those words.

If I were to use scientific method, first I would deduce a hypothesis.
"Does a small sensor with newer and better technology have better Signal-to-noise ratio than a large sensor with old and outdated technology"

I would generate a bunch of pictures using the questions asked above (e.g. 1dx mark 2 vs 5DSR... 80D vs 5D) with a tool similar to https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

Then I would create a survey that would ask 100 random people around my neighborhood (no one from this forum cause then its not random). Using the results, I will tally the results, perform statistical analysis so that I am within 5% error and then come to conclusions that appropriately fits the results (not the hypothesis).

I don't have time or money to undertake this venture, willing to provide a grant that will allow me to do this?

With that said, I'm only assuming that you agree with the hypothesis that "bigger lenses ==> bigger sensor ==> more light onto sensor ==> better SNR."

Obviously, you can keep "Bigger lenses" as constant, non-changing factor.... so where is your scientific proof that "bigger sensor ==> more light onto sensor ==> better SNR"?

Please use a 5D classic and compare it to the 80D.... please tell me how that supports that theory???



Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: bhf3737 on February 09, 2018, 07:39:55 PM

Scientific method????

Not that I do not know what that is... but when did I say that I was using a scientific method?

Do you know what "Rhetorical" means? Whether you know or don't know what that means (if you don't know, I'm sure you can google the meaning), but don't you think that because I'm using "Rhetorical" questions that this whole thing is purely subjective - no objective findings here, thus scientific method is not being used?

Just for the record, the above highlighted in red is completely inferred, I never actually said that in those words.

If I were to use scientific method, first I would deduce a hypothesis.
"Does a small sensor with newer and better technology have better Signal-to-noise ratio than a large sensor with old and outdated technology"

I would generate a bunch of pictures using the questions asked above (e.g. 1dx mark 2 vs 5DSR... 80D vs 5D) with a tool similar to https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM

Then I would create a survey that would ask 100 random people around my neighborhood (no one from this forum cause then its not random). Using the results, I will tally the results, perform statistical analysis so that I am within 5% error and then come to conclusions that appropriately fits the results (not the hypothesis).

I don't have time or money to undertake this venture, willing to provide a grant that will allow me to do this?

With that said, I'm only assuming that you agree with the hypothesis that "bigger lenses ==> bigger sensor ==> more light onto sensor ==> better SNR."

Obviously, you can keep "Bigger lenses" as constant, non-changing factor.... so where is your scientific proof that "bigger sensor ==> more light onto sensor ==> better SNR"?

Please use a 5D classic and compare it to the 80D.... please tell me how that supports that theory???

Obviously, besides the scientific method of inquiry, you don't know how to engage in a logical (deductive) and constructive argument.
Sorry to take your time.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: 9VIII on February 10, 2018, 03:47:09 AM

It’s hilarious how many people bought the snake oil M4/3 is selling.
Those zooms are f5.6 equivalent due to the small sensor, and the f1.2 lens will barely outperfrom the Nifty Fifty on a Rebel.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1226781-REG/mitakon_zhongyi_mtk35m95m2fx_speedmaster_35mm_f_0_95_mark.html
Now this is value for money.
The fact that it’s manual focus is a downside, but this is glass for a crop sensor that’s about as good as any Full Frame lens of equivalent price.

This brings up a good question...
FOV changes due to sensor size is obvious and relatively quantifiable.
But does speed of a lens change due to sensor size?
So, if I see f/2.8 on a lens.... thats how much I would expect it to let in light.... wide open its going to be f/2.8. The barrel of the lens does not automatically change shape to let in more light for a Full-frame as opposed to mft????

Lastly, you too should read this:
https://petapixel.com/2017/03/24/battle-micro-43-camera-outsold-full-frame-dslr/

Noise is directly proportional to size, ISO 3,200 on M4/3 is the same as ISO 12,800 on 35mm.

And of course cheap cameras outsell expensive ones. I just bought a Fuji X-E2S for $420 because it’s probably the best value on the market right now.
People buying M4/3 are generally wasting their money (not that most people actually care about sensor noise).

At the same time I can say that I am interested in the Panasonic G9 because it has the highest pixel density of any camera on the market, I was equally interested in the Nikon 1 series, but again, I don’t expect Panasonic to escape that fate.
And APS-C will lose popularity as soon as someone decides to start making an entry level Full Frame body.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: transpo1 on February 10, 2018, 12:55:02 PM
With a Metabones XL, the GH5s will produce a 4K 60p image with a crop factor equal to or less than the 1DXII. Just to clarify for everyone.
I am afraid that is not correct. The crop factor of MFT sensor is 2 and it cannot grow larger to something like 1.3 because it is limited by the physical size of the sensor that is 1/4 of a full frame 35mm sensor. It can only further be cropped to something smaller.
With a speed-booster like Metabones, you can get 1 to 1.3 stops more light into the MFT sensor, that will improve the noise performance at the expense of some hit on image quality. Also you get a slight narrower field of view, between 1.28 and 1.42, depending on the speed-booster version, i.e. 100mm FF lens will have field of view equivalent to 128-142mm.
Please see http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/sensor-crop-factors (http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/sensor-crop-factors) for reference.

With a GH5 and Metabones XL, you will get a crop factor equivalent to about 1.3x FF. Better? ;)
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: transpo1 on February 10, 2018, 12:58:06 PM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)

Then tell us who the market is for this.

Apparently Canon intended the camera to be sold to journalists
that need a quick work turnaround with news agencies that requiere 4K video.

Other that that, it's used as a crash cam and maybe for some
run and gun productions (documentaries).

Thank you, that was a good answer.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: transpo1 on February 10, 2018, 01:08:31 PM
How I see this series of cameras:

Potential Customer
"I'd like a inexpensive DSLR, something under $2000 that does decent 4K recording."

Canon
"How about this camera with a 1" sensor and non-removable lens?"

Potential Customer
"Um..."

Right, because that's really the market this camera is aiming at.  ::)

Then tell us who the market is for this.

run and gun ENG work. you DO realize this has canon's C300 codecs right?

Even eoshd admits this is a great and fun camera package for run and gun work, and they have been highly critical of Canon lately.

I know complaining about canon and video is what you do here, and not much else; but perhaps you need to educate yourself just a smidgen then ;)

https://www.eoshd.com/2016/06/canon-xc10-versus-sony-rx10-iii-the-canon-is-underrated/

That’s what the camera does, that’s not who it’s for. Another poster gave a better answer by saying journalists / news agencies with quick 4K turnarounds. I’m sure the demographic is bigger than that, but that’s a piece of it, for sure.

I happen to like the camera, and the form factor, which is why Canon could sell more of them if they did something bold like make an ILC APS-C version. The C100-300 series is too big for journalists to throw into their bag, especially if they have a good stills camera in there, as well (because they might need both).

Which —>

Brings us back to the real issue- Canon needs a great and useable 4K codec in their stills lineup, with a decent crop factor and competitive specs. Put THAT in their DSLR and ILC lineup and price it right and they can really sell a ton of cameras to the above demographic.

And those poor journalists will not have to carry so much in their bags. ;)

Hopefully, via the latest on the Canon M50 having 4K video, this is about to start happening.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: bhf3737 on February 10, 2018, 06:01:31 PM
With a Metabones XL, the GH5s will produce a 4K 60p image with a crop factor equal to or less than the 1DXII. Just to clarify for everyone.
I am afraid that is not correct. The crop factor of MFT sensor is 2 and it cannot grow larger to something like 1.3 because it is limited by the physical size of the sensor that is 1/4 of a full frame 35mm sensor. It can only further be cropped to something smaller.
With a speed-booster like Metabones, you can get 1 to 1.3 stops more light into the MFT sensor, that will improve the noise performance at the expense of some hit on image quality. Also you get a slight narrower field of view, between 1.28 and 1.42, depending on the speed-booster version, i.e. 100mm FF lens will have field of view equivalent to 128-142mm.
Please see http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/sensor-crop-factors (http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/sensor-crop-factors) for reference.

With a GH5 and Metabones XL, you will get a crop factor equivalent to about 1.3x FF. Better? ;)

No. Still wrong.
Crop factor in video is a measure of portion of the physical sensor which is read to produce the 4096x2160 pixels for 4k video.
Some cameras read all sensor (i.e. do not crop: take full image from the sensor) and convert it to 4k pixels needed. Some read a smaller portion (i.e. crop: read portion of the image from the sensor) and convert it to 4k pixels needed.
Panasonic GH5 reads all MFT sensor. Compared to full frame sensor, the read area in equivalent to 1/4 of the full frame sensor, therefore, from FF perspective, it is crop 2 area.
Using speed boosters, you still get the read out from full MFT sensor which is crop 2.
What speed boosters do affects focal length and maximum aperture which are properties of the "lens"  and do not care whether a full frame, APS-C or m4/3 sensor sits behind the lens. Speed boosters reduce focal length and increases maximum aperture (smaller f-number) of the lens. They have nothing to do with the sensor read area of the camera which is crop 2 for GH5.
See http://www.metabones.com/article/of/faq (http://www.metabones.com/article/of/faq) for reference.
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: privatebydesign on February 10, 2018, 06:23:33 PM
With a Metabones XL, the GH5s will produce a 4K 60p image with a crop factor equal to or less than the 1DXII. Just to clarify for everyone.
I am afraid that is not correct. The crop factor of MFT sensor is 2 and it cannot grow larger to something like 1.3 because it is limited by the physical size of the sensor that is 1/4 of a full frame 35mm sensor. It can only further be cropped to something smaller.
With a speed-booster like Metabones, you can get 1 to 1.3 stops more light into the MFT sensor, that will improve the noise performance at the expense of some hit on image quality. Also you get a slight narrower field of view, between 1.28 and 1.42, depending on the speed-booster version, i.e. 100mm FF lens will have field of view equivalent to 128-142mm.
Please see http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/sensor-crop-factors (http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/sensor-crop-factors) for reference.

With a GH5 and Metabones XL, you will get a crop factor equivalent to about 1.3x FF. Better? ;)

No. Still wrong.
Crop factor in video is a measure of portion of the physical sensor which is read to produce the 4096x2160 pixels for 4k video.
Some cameras read all sensor (i.e. do not crop: take full image from the sensor) and convert it to 4k pixels needed. Some read a smaller portion (i.e. crop: read portion of the image from the sensor) and convert it to 4k pixels needed.
Panasonic GH5 reads all MFT sensor. Compared to full frame sensor, the read area in equivalent to 1/4 of the full frame sensor, therefore, from FF perspective, it is crop 2 area.
Using speed boosters, you still get the read out from full MFT sensor which is crop 2.
What speed boosters do affects focal length and maximum aperture which are properties of the "lens"  and do not care whether a full frame, APS-C or m4/3 sensor sits behind the lens. Speed boosters reduce focal length and increases maximum aperture (smaller f-number) of the lens. They have nothing to do with the sensor read area of the camera which is crop 2 for GH5.
See http://www.metabones.com/article/of/faq (http://www.metabones.com/article/of/faq) for reference.

The GH5/ 5s does not read the full sensor for any video format, it is a 4:3 sensor only 4:3 stills have the basic 2x crop factor from the 'ff' 135 format sized sensor.

Here are the crop factor ratios for the GH5s ¹, the GH5 and GH4 are all heavier crops as the sensor is physically smaller than the GH5s sensor.
3680 pixel long in 4/3 = 2x crop factor in 4/3 still mode
3840 pixel long in 3/2 = 1,91x crop factor in 3/2 still mode
4016 pixel long in 16/9 = 1,832x crop factor in 16/9 still mode
4096 pixel long in 17/9 = 1.796x crop factor in 17/9 (DCI 4K) video mode
3840 pixel long in 3/2 = 1,91x crop factor in 16/9 4K UHD video mode.
35mm means 3680×3680 = 7360 pixel long or 1x crop factor
If you add a Speed Booster Ultra to the GH5s you get in DCI 4K a crop factor of 1,275x with 135 format lenses.
If you add a Speed Booster XL to the GH5s you get in DCI 4K a crop factor of 1,149x with 135 format lenses.

 ¹ https://www.43rumors.com/exact-crop-factors-caluclated-new-gh5s-multiaspect-sensor/
Title: Re: Canon XC20 Coming Soon? The First Specification List Appears
Post by: mistaspeedy on February 12, 2018, 08:54:03 PM
Lol. So for shallow depth of field in video, forget full frame Canon cameras.. get a micro four thirds camera!