canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Video => Topic started by: Isaacheus on February 13, 2018, 06:28:35 PM

Title: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Isaacheus on February 13, 2018, 06:28:35 PM
I have seen some comments elsewhere about the 1080 quality of the Canon cameras being soft and exhibiting moire etc, it seems to be more so in the older cameras, 6d, 5dmk3 etc but a few about the 5dmk4 and 1dx2 have also come up.

How do these two compare to the likes of Nikon, Sony, Panasonic etc for their 1080 60fps or 120 fps quality? Asking for someone who is looking at a 5dmk4 in the future, from a 6d and 5dmk3, but currently uses my a7r3 for 60 fps video

I know  the 4k is a sore spot for some, with the crop and file size, does this provide a better quality output, for the storage space?

Thanks.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: sanj on February 13, 2018, 07:49:56 PM
This is a loaded question with no clear cut replies. You will find some nice things in some. At the end it all balances out.

4k? Absolutely the way to go. It provides better quality output for sure.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Isaacheus on February 13, 2018, 08:48:18 PM
This is a loaded question with no clear cut replies. You will find some nice things in some. At the end it all balances out.

4k? Absolutely the way to go. It provides better quality output for sure.

Ah sorry, wasn't that clear with the last part : is the large 4k file size worth it over the more compressed options elsewhere?

But the main part is the about the 1080 recording, and yes, somewhat loaded question although I don't mean it in that way. Trying to find if people have experience in the Canon footage really being sub par, or if that is just Canon bashing
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: mistaspeedy on February 13, 2018, 09:01:48 PM
I have no experience with any of these cameras, so I can only repeat what I have read from various people who use them.

5D mark III seems to give the best quality 1080p out of any Canon DSLR. The only step upwards in quality is to shoot 4K on the 5D mark IV or 1DX mark II (and downscale later if you need 1080p delivery).
1080p seems to have taken a step backwards from the 5D mark III, because the resolution of this sensor was tailor made to perfectly record 1080p video. Add magic lantern into the mix and things improve even more.
5760 x 3240 (16:9 full width crop of 5D mark III sensor) scales perfectly into 1920 x 1080 in a 3:1 ratio.

You can read more from Andrew Reid here.
https://www.eoshd.com/2012/03/panasonic-gh2-vs-5d-mark-iii/
He's been highly critical of Canon lately (rightly so IMHO), but at one point he must have loved Canon a lot, so much so that the name of his blog carries the EOS name.

He seems to feel that the quality of Canon 1080p on any camera has yet to surpass the Panasonic GH2 or GH3.

Looking at various videos on Youtube seem to support this. The footage from the Canon just looks soft in comparison. An exception is Magic Lantern RAW, but that is an editing and workflow nightmare.

Others may disagree with his and my opinion and are free to post their own comparisons.

Just to recap... I'm not claiming to be any sort of expert on the topic... just repeating what I've read and seen.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: crazyrunner33 on February 28, 2018, 01:28:44 PM
This is a loaded question with no clear cut replies. You will find some nice things in some. At the end it all balances out.

4k? Absolutely the way to go. It provides better quality output for sure.

Ah sorry, wasn't that clear with the last part : is the large 4k file size worth it over the more compressed options elsewhere?

But the main part is the about the 1080 recording, and yes, somewhat loaded question although I don't mean it in that way. Trying to find if people have experience in the Canon footage really being sub par, or if that is just Canon bashing

Canon DSLR footage has been subpar for a while, with exception of the Canon 1DC, 1DX Mk2 and 5D Magic Lantern RAW. If you're trying to maximize 1080p quality for space, then the GH4/GH5 in 4K with 100 mbps per second is the way to go. 4:2:0 compressed 4K downsampled to 1080p will beat a 4:2:0 1080p image any day. The 1080p out of the C100 is pretty decent for the data rate of around 25 mbps, but it's such a bulky camera. Magic Lantern's RAW on the 5D Mark III upscales very well to 4K and creates some of the best colors and most flexibility in post, but as previously mentioned, it is anything but easy.

The new EOS M50 may finally produce a decent 1080p image, but the 4K crop makes the micro 4/3 sensor look large, at least the crop on the M43 has a lens system designed to work for it.

If looking for a good combination of a photography/video combo and creating video in a professional environment, the new A73 would be the way to go. It takes a lot of components from the A9 which no longer has the over heating issue. In the past, Sony 4K DSLRs have been the go to workhorse for marketing work for video, and even used by the BBC, but they sometimes overheated in long form situations. I never ran into the overheating issue on the Sony, but that's because I use traditional cameras for long form.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: swithdrawn on March 02, 2018, 07:06:57 PM
I haven't done scientific tests but owning both the 1DX II and 5D3 (and having used both as my primary cameras at different points) I would say the 1080 quality is the same for both. 1080@60p on the 1DX II is noticeably softer, however. I believe the best 1080 on a Canon DSLR is the Super35 1080 mode on the 1DC.

I shoot 4k on the 1DX II and 5D IV and, in most cases, downsample to 2k/1080p in Davinci. The result is orders of magnitude sharper than the 1080p modes on both cameras and definitely worth the extra step of transcoding.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: 3dit0r on March 07, 2018, 06:28:07 AM
I haven't done scientific tests but owning both the 1DX II and 5D3 (and having used both as my primary cameras at different points) I would say the 1080 quality is the same for both. 1080@60p on the 1DX II is noticeably softer, however. I believe the best 1080 on a Canon DSLR is the Super35 1080 mode on the 1DC.

I shoot 4k on the 1DX II and 5D IV and, in most cases, downsample to 2k/1080p in Davinci. The result is orders of magnitude sharper than the 1080p modes on both cameras and definitely worth the extra step of transcoding.

I agree with this. Just shoot in 4K and then either proxy edit or transcode for best results.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Kuja on March 07, 2018, 08:42:59 AM
5D mark III seems to give the best quality 1080p out of any Canon DSLR.

Canon 5Ds has better 1080p video quality.

I have used both (5DMkIII and 5Ds) side by side, on a low budget music video shoot.

5Ds was noticeably cleaner and sharper.

It is a shame that there is no ML for it.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 07, 2018, 10:43:48 AM
Probably a question that's been asked and answered before but I've been to distracted.  To convert 4K video from my 1DX2 to HD and be able to incorporate panning and zooming, what is the best software for a fussy beginner.  I have a special trip I'm planning for late summer and I really would love to do some video and not just the usual photos.

Like so many new ventures in life, it's hard to get initial traction and I don't really want to either be bogged down in software that is near impossible to learn without numerous courses or alternately not satisfactory for reasons I would soon become aware of.   I must get started on this! :(

Is there someone that does this all the time that has an overall perspective on it?

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: privatebydesign on March 07, 2018, 11:27:02 AM
Probably a question that's been asked and answered before but I've been to distracted.  To convert 4K video from my 1DX2 to HD and be able to incorporate panning and zooming, what is the best software for a fussy beginner.  I have a special trip I'm planning for late summer and I really would love to do some video and not just the usual photos.

Like so many new ventures in life, it's hard to get initial traction and I don't really want to either be bogged down in software that is near impossible to learn without numerous courses or alternately not satisfactory for reasons I would soon become aware of.   I must get started on this! :(

Is there someone that does this all the time that has an overall perspective on it?

Jack

If you are an Apple user the defacto tool is Final Cut Pro, often just abbreviated to FCP. If you are a PC user then the defacto tool is Adobe Premiere Pro. There are others but those two are the class leaders for fussy beginners (in video) with good gear and big ambitions.  :)

Having said that video is a rabbit warren a magnitude leap from stills! I have taken tentative steps into video with the 1DX MkII (because I had it) and a DJI Mavic Air because I have customers that want it, but the learning curve is steep!

Two biggest commitments are stability, tripods, gimbals/steadicam, video monopods and the fact that video plates go the other way to stills plates; and sound, do you want decent ambient sound or talk to the camera blog style sound, or any of a multitude of other styles.

For my uses I have gone for the Rode VideoMic Pro Plus https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1350282-REG/rode_vmp_videomic_pro_on_camera_shotgun.html and the Zhiyun Crane 2 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1359107-REG/zhiyun_tech_crane_2_3_axis_handheld_stabilizer.html with the 1DX MkII adapter arm https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1389917-REG/zhiyun_tech_gmb_c522_gravity_adjustment_plate_for.html along with FCP and a hearty dose of YouTube videos to get me started.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 07, 2018, 01:32:05 PM
Scott, thanks for this!

I can be pretty intense when it comes to self teaching; I've done lots of it all my life but I'm definitely not as sharp as I was.  The biggest problem now that I'm older is just getting into it deep enough to become engaged.  Once fully engaged I'm on my way and never look back.

It's so easy to throw money away on impulse as you know so that's what I'm trying to avoid.  My situation, other than I'm not a long time pro, kind of parallels yours and maybe if you're willing you could be there in the background relating to my challenges - you've been more than helpful in the past.  My video involvement would likely only be short nature/wildlife and landscape clips that I'd assemble.  Never the less, how does one know when they've never been engaged in it.

I will digest what you've provided and interact further later.

Did you give any thought to this mic?  Azden SMX-30 Stereo/Mono Video Mic

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: bhf3737 on March 07, 2018, 01:40:33 PM
Probably a question that's been asked and answered before but I've been to distracted.  To convert 4K video from my 1DX2 to HD and be able to incorporate panning and zooming, what is the best software for a fussy beginner.  I have a special trip I'm planning for late summer and I really would love to do some video and not just the usual photos.

Like so many new ventures in life, it's hard to get initial traction and I don't really want to either be bogged down in software that is near impossible to learn without numerous courses or alternately not satisfactory for reasons I would soon become aware of.   I must get started on this! :(

Is there someone that does this all the time that has an overall perspective on it?

Jack

Hi Jack.
I had the same hesitation when coming to select a video editing software. Many of them are overloaded with features that may be overkill for just simple panning, zooming and transcoding.
I use Windows ecosystem. I started with Cyberlink PowerDirector which has an intuitive interface and fast transcoding capability for 4K to HD. It allows you to edit, zoom, add titles, transitions between scenes and do color correction, color matching between scenes and even applying color lookup tables. I found it intuitive and easy to use to overcome the initial hesitation.
The next steps were jumping on Adobe's Premiere Pro CC and MediaEncoder CC for more advanced editing, color management and audio-video matching and transcoding, etc., as they were part of the CC package, so using them by force rather than by choice. The learning curve with premiere Pro was like climbing a downhill ski slope from bottom to top! but getting the job done with a more pro look has been very rewarding.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: reef58 on March 07, 2018, 02:32:09 PM
Wow lots of great information in this thread.  Considering dipping the toe in video myself.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 07, 2018, 03:45:49 PM
Scott, thanks for this!

I can be pretty intense when it comes to self teaching; I've done lots of it all my life but I'm definitely not as sharp as I was.  The biggest problem now that I'm older is just getting into it deep enough to become engaged.  Once fully engaged I'm on my way and never look back.

It's so easy to throw money away on impulse as you know so that's what I'm trying to avoid.  My situation, other than I'm not a long time pro, kind of parallels yours and maybe if you're willing you could be there in the background relating to my challenges - you've been more than helpful in the past.  My video involvement would likely only be short nature/wildlife and landscape clips that I'd assemble.  Never the less, how does one know when they've never been engaged in it.

I will digest what you've provided and interact further later.

Did you give any thought to this mic?  Azden SMX-30 Stereo/Mono Video Mic

Jack

If you are just starting off, before you get into a transcoding and proxy workflow, try to evaluate your system's performance first by directly editing your camera's native files. You can also use Premiere's playback resolution set to a fraction (1/4, 1/2, etc.) of the original resolution depending on your source files. If you are doing light editing, cuts and titles with limited use of transitions and layers, you may be able to skip a bunch of steps and potentially introduce some new issues along the way. You can learn this workflow at a later date when you are comfortable with the basics of editing.

With the Azden mic or any 3.5mm mic, the most important thing is to monitor your battery life and make sure the plug sits fully into the jack. If you aren't monitoring with headphones or indicators and the battery runs down or the plug isn't fully seated and you aren't aware of this, you will get no sound at all (the microphone input disables the camera's internal mic)
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Talys on March 07, 2018, 05:01:44 PM
This may be of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFvpJSmB_Ps

The fellow compares a Canon 1DX Mark II and an Sony A7R III.  His findings are interesting; it's worth a watch.

Spoilers/TLDR:
- He really really really wanted to switch to the Sony A7R III because of size (he hates 1DXII size)
- 1DXII is better for 1080p video (also, it supports 4k 60fps vs 30fps 4k on Sony, but he doesn't care)
- Slow motion on 1DXII is significantly smoother
- AF on 1DXII is better.  Also, when it's OOF and acquiring focus, the result on a 1DXII is more pleasing
- AF on Sony with adapted lens is not good enough.  But he says native lens is also inferior to 1DXII
- He likes Canon colors better
- The 1DXII is going to remain his video rig; he's going to probably return the A7RIII
- If it were just photography, he'd probably go A7RIII, because of size

Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: BillB on March 07, 2018, 05:37:23 PM
This may be of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFvpJSmB_Ps

The fellow compares a Canon 1DX Mark II and an Sony A7R III.  His findings are interesting; it's worth a watch.

Spoilers/TLDR:
- He really really really wanted to switch to the Sony A7R III because of size (he hates 1DXII size)
- 1DXII is better for 1080p video (also, it supports 4k 60fps vs 30fps 4k on Sony, but he doesn't care)
- Slow motion on 1DXII is significantly smoother
- AF on 1DXII is better.  Also, when it's OOF and acquiring focus, the result on a 1DXII is more pleasing
- AF on Sony with adapted lens is not good enough.  But he says native lens is also inferior to 1DXII
- He likes Canon colors better
- The 1DXII is going to remain his video rig; he's going to probably return the A7RIII
- If it were just photography, he'd probably go A7RIII, because of size

Interesting.  Others have said that 1DXII  and 5DII 1080 was soft. 
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 07, 2018, 06:05:06 PM
bhf3737, thanks for this information.  Sometimes folk forget what it's like when you've had zero previous involvement.  Even the most basic terms and concepts are foreign. 

After Scott's comments, I checked into Adobe Premiere Pro, but that's subscription and often I find myself not using software for periods of other involvement and am not sure I want to go that route.  Perhaps that's just a mental block but it's one reason I bought ON1 RAW, for example.

I will check out Cyberlink PowerDirector because it sounds like that's just what I want to do and I'm not making money off this activity and likely won't get as engaged as I do with photos ... but one never knows, right? ;)

Another thing is what size of lens can be handled by the stabilized gimbals - like would I be fine with the 11-24?

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 07, 2018, 06:19:43 PM
Thanks jayphotoworks; great info on using a mic.  Presently, I can't do any 4K editing other than with Corel Videostudio X9.  The Corel guy said it can't do the 4K to 1050 with panning or I was thinking of upgrading to X10 - looks like that software purchase was a waste. 

So about all I've done is record some 4K and played it back (Canon or Corel).  Another issue is only having 64 and 128 CFast cards at the moment but that's easy to solve with $$$.  Shooting with 400 X2 was an eye opener in terms of shake.  You can't even touch the camera so I guess it'd have to be fixed on a spot and then remote release.

Any advice from anyone, please remember I'm a complete dummy at this moment relative to video. :(

Once someone was being roasted over owning a 1DX2 and not wanting/being able to afford CFast cards.  I can relate; you spend way to much on a camera and lens and have little left - duh.  Actually, I'm able to still afford some gear but can't be foolish in that regard.  Furthermore my nature is to be careful spending and other family members have a right to some toys too.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: privatebydesign on March 07, 2018, 06:42:30 PM

Another thing is what size of lens can be handled by the stabilized gimbals - like would I be fine with the 11-24?

Jack

I linked to the Zhiyun Crane 2 (not v2) because it is the only gimbal of that type and price bracket that can take 7lbs, or enough for the 1DX MkII and 11-24, but you do need the gravity plate I also linked to because of the height of the 1DX MkII.

Indeed that body lens combo is what I am getting mine for, the 11mm enables super wide fov even with a 4k crop, although the first jobs I have lined up for it are 1080 real estate walk throughs.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 07, 2018, 07:34:41 PM
Thanks Scott!

Guess I've steered this a little off topic but maybe not enough to bother anyone??

Do you sense we're on the edge of these stabilized gimbals coming down in price?

I watched the video and I think that guy made pretty valid points.  Certainly the AF characteristic is important to me.

Is an external monitor relevant or does the gimbal give you flexibility on viewing further away?

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: syder on March 07, 2018, 10:23:59 PM
Basically the main thing Canon has going for its DSLR (and C series) video is Dual Pixel autofocus. It absolutely smashes anything I've seen on Sony/Panasonic/Blackmagic cameras. If you have a dedicated focus puller that doesn't mean much, but most people doing DSLR video dont have much in the way of assistance/crew.

The WiFi connect App is also pretty awesome. Remotely being able to control the camera settings and pull focus from a smartphone or tablet is great for vloggers or if the camera is on a crane/rigged in a way that makes it hard to manually access.

Being able to work in ways that were not possible with the 5D3/C100 means a lot more to me than any minor improvement/loss of marginal detail.

The GH5 is a beast for indie fiction work. The A7s2 is absolutely amazing in lowlight. But if you want class-leading AF (and the Face tracking DPAF is good enough to just be allowed to do its thing for documentary interviews and to camera educational material) then Canon still have an advantage.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: privatebydesign on March 08, 2018, 12:26:33 AM
Thanks Scott!

Guess I've steered this a little off topic but maybe not enough to bother anyone??

Do you sense we're on the edge of these stabilized gimbals coming down in price?

I watched the video and I think that guy made pretty valid points.  Certainly the AF characteristic is important to me.

Is an external monitor relevant or does the gimbal give you flexibility on viewing further away?

Jack

I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 08, 2018, 03:18:04 AM
Thanks Scott.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: 3dit0r on March 08, 2018, 03:27:18 AM
Probably a question that's been asked and answered before but I've been to distracted.  To convert 4K video from my 1DX2 to HD and be able to incorporate panning and zooming, what is the best software for a fussy beginner.  I have a special trip I'm planning for late summer and I really would love to do some video and not just the usual photos.

Like so many new ventures in life, it's hard to get initial traction and I don't really want to either be bogged down in software that is near impossible to learn without numerous courses or alternately not satisfactory for reasons I would soon become aware of.   I must get started on this! :(

Is there someone that does this all the time that has an overall perspective on it?

Jack

Several options:

Avid Media Composer First - slightly pared down version of full media composer, but it's still the industry standard and this version is free. Personally I still find this the fastest, most intuitive and robust NLE. Still the best trim mode out there.

Lightworks - another industry standard NLE. The free version is limited, but if you're dabbling, how much do you need for no outlay?

Davinci Resolve. It's free for most functions and fully featured, and of course industry standard colour correction. I don't think the editor part is as intuitive as the above, but if you want it all in one package...

The others aren't free. Also, Apple screwed themselves (and a large number of editors) when they switched to Final Cut Pro X which put a lot of people off. Never got on with that or Première anyway, but that's a personal thing, I know there are people who like them.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 08, 2018, 11:36:52 AM
This may be of interest:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFvpJSmB_Ps

The fellow compares a Canon 1DX Mark II and an Sony A7R III.  His findings are interesting; it's worth a watch.

Spoilers/TLDR:
- He really really really wanted to switch to the Sony A7R III because of size (he hates 1DXII size)
- 1DXII is better for 1080p video (also, it supports 4k 60fps vs 30fps 4k on Sony, but he doesn't care)
- Slow motion on 1DXII is significantly smoother
- AF on 1DXII is better.  Also, when it's OOF and acquiring focus, the result on a 1DXII is more pleasing
- AF on Sony with adapted lens is not good enough.  But he says native lens is also inferior to 1DXII
- He likes Canon colors better
- The 1DXII is going to remain his video rig; he's going to probably return the A7RIII
- If it were just photography, he'd probably go A7RIII, because of size

Interesting.  Others have said that 1DXII  and 5DII 1080 was soft.

There are a number of specifics that Sony does very well:

- Dual record 4K to both cards simultaneously
- LOG/HLG on the Sony
- FF (no crop) vs S35 crop switchable on the Sony
- Real EVF
- Tilting Rear LCD
- Focus Assists, Configurable Zebra, Markers and Aspect Grids
- 4K 8bit 4:2:2 out via HDMI (vs 1080 on the 5D4/1DX2)
- Configurable custom buttons specific to video (in video mode) and alternate configuration for (stills mode)
- Built in proxy recording
- Sony shotgun/stereo and dual-xlr audio kit all connect via the multi-interface shoe. No separate 3.5mm cable, no need for AA batteries or external power

I think overall usability and flexibility for video acquisition in this segment is better than Canon's current offerings. AF on the Sony is adequate at least in decent light, but obviously nowhere near Canon's DPAF performance. Sony's codec is also much weaker for grading, but for the work that I would employ my Sony, I don't need the extra headroom resulting in additional hours in the editing suite and I also don't want to burn through media every 15-20mins either.



Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Talys on March 08, 2018, 11:57:00 AM
Basically the main thing Canon has going for its DSLR (and C series) video is Dual Pixel autofocus. It absolutely smashes anything I've seen on Sony/Panasonic/Blackmagic cameras. If you have a dedicated focus puller that doesn't mean much, but most people doing DSLR video dont have much in the way of assistance/crew.

Yes.

I have a friend's A7R3 at the moment, and will shoot it when it gets sunny to give it a fair shake and post my findings.  I'm quite excited to give it a whirl, though that will have to wait til hopefully the weather improves (before I have to return it :)).  But the very first thing that I noticed is that hybrid PDAF Autofocus using a GMaster 100-400 is far, far short of 100-400L2 with Dual Pixel, especially as there is less available light.

The GMaster 70-200/2.8 is significantly better; but as the lights dim a little -- think flash photography use cases -- AF suffers immensely, compared to 70-200 L2.8 IS.

Often, even when the autofocus is acceptably fast, there is a visible back-and-forth hunting.  When in continuous autofocus, it's possible that the AF system is not sure even when it's a stationary target (like a book on a bookshelf) the AF thinks an awful lot and you can see the camera deciding on AF points. 

Contrast that with Canon AI Servo, where it's a solid lock and done.  I think it's less important with photography, because you don't see the hunting in the final result.  But it is distracting, because AF hunting has not been a real issue seemingly forever.  In video, I could see this being super annoying (though I don't care about video, myself).  The face tracking and subject tracking seems very good; perhaps this makes up for it a little bit, but still, when you need to go from defocused to in-focus, I do not find the transition pleasing as I do with practically every current Canon camera.  The EFS18-135 USM on an 80D sure puts AF on the A7R3 to shame.

Playing around with the camera a bit (but not really taking any photos), there are some features that are really great, like an ace crop mode implementation that 5DSR users would love.  But I don't think there's any way around it -- After fidgeting for 2 hours and watching configuration videos, I came to the initial conclusion that the AF seems inferior, both to TTL PDAF and live view DPAF, and that is a very important feature to me. 

Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 08, 2018, 11:59:02 AM
Thanks Scott!

Guess I've steered this a little off topic but maybe not enough to bother anyone??

Do you sense we're on the edge of these stabilized gimbals coming down in price?

I watched the video and I think that guy made pretty valid points.  Certainly the AF characteristic is important to me.

Is an external monitor relevant or does the gimbal give you flexibility on viewing further away?

Jack

I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.

I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.

For wireless HDMI monitoring, the best low cost wireless option is probably the Nyrius Pro at $300. The receiver and transmitter can be powered via USB power packs, so you get creative with duct tape and cable ties. While there are other options like wifi, latency can tend to ruin a lot of your shots. If you are pulling focus or trying to do a camera movement, by the time the screen updates, you might have already missed the shot. The Nyrius does have relatively short range and the feed can sometimes get interrupted, but the next best option is over $3000 and targets a different market entirely.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 08, 2018, 12:19:24 PM
Thanks guys!! 

It would seem that initially free software is a very good option, trusting the judgment of others and given that processing comes after recording I guess I'd better start shooting a lot of practice video to simply become more familiar with the challenges. 

I'm pretty much sold on the:

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B075T3TQSD/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=A3P9EAC3KD93H7&psc=1

Which you can see is a little more pricey than from the US but not enough for me to go to B&H.

But I'm wondering how easy it is to change focus points on the viewfinder when shooting, like if you're interested in a subject, as opposed to say landscape??

When shooting 4K is there any way an external monitor can work??

What use is 4K 60 - only slow motion??  Can it be used in every way like 4K 30??  Probably pretty dumb questions but like I said I have never done video (I seem to recall there is no audio but ...).

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Talys on March 08, 2018, 12:40:13 PM
What use is 4K 60 - only slow motion??  Can it be used in every way like 4K 30??  Probably pretty dumb questions but like I said I have never done video (I seem to recall there is no audio but ...).

I'm no expert at this, but presenting video in 30 vs 60 fps have a very different look to them.

Movies are presented in 24fps (the historical reasons are partly economic), but the aesthetic is very different from HFR (high frame rate), like 60fps -- that has much more of a "live video" look (as in, you are right there).  Ironically, because audiences have gotten used to 24fps, some people feel that HFR looks "fake".

The most notable HFR video was The Hobbit, which screened at select theatres at 48 fps.  The audience feedback, I recall, was mixed.  Some people just didn't like it.  I never saw it in HFR, so I can't say for myself.

A lot of people in the cinematography claim that 24fps is aesthetically more pleasing... and I guess the proof is in that nearly all 2D/3D movies are presented that way.  But that just devolves into the same argument as DSLR versus Mirrorless :)
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 08, 2018, 12:44:09 PM



I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.

I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.



Scott and Jay,
So you two say that the Crane 2 will work well with the 1dx2 and maybe a 24-70 2.8? The gimbal will give full range of motion with that much weight on it? I was looking at the Ronin M but if this Crane 2 will do it, it seems to be easier to hold and move around. Using the screen to get focus though could be a challenge, right?
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 08, 2018, 12:50:49 PM
Thanks guys!! 

It would seem that initially free software is a very good option, trusting the judgment of others and given that processing comes after recording I guess I'd better start shooting a lot of practice video to simply become more familiar with the challenges. 

What use is 4K 60 - only slow motion??  Can it be used in every way like 4K 30??  Probably pretty dumb questions but like I said I have never done video (I seem to recall there is no audio but ...).

Jack

Yes, typically you use the higher frame rate so you can slow the video down later in post production. So you can still use 60p in a 30p or 24p movie project, it will just get rid of the extra frames I think. Audio works just fine on 4K 60p with the 1dx2 (not on 1080p120).

As we've talked about before, I use Premiere for video editing. It is a full feature software. I shoot in 4k typically and then create proxies (basically a downsized version of the file that the software uses for editing, but then reverts back to the source video for final output encoding). Even with my nice computer Premiere has problems playing 4K, even on the 1/4 playback setting. In my mind, Premiere is not very efficient. From what I've heard, FCP has been finely tuned to work 4K well on Macs.

Jack, remember that 1dx2 4K is a 1.4 crop, so your 11-24 will crop some, which is fine. My 24-70 gives me plenty of area in 4K.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 08, 2018, 01:48:22 PM



I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.

I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.



Scott and Jay,
So you two say that the Crane 2 will work well with the 1dx2 and maybe a 24-70 2.8? The gimbal will give full range of motion with that much weight on it? I was looking at the Ronin M but if this Crane 2 will do it, it seems to be easier to hold and move around. Using the screen to get focus though could be a challenge, right?

I've never tried a gripped body on the Crane 2. The closest thing from Canon I recently shot on this gimbal was a 5DS and a 17-40L lens. The 5DS doesn't even have DPAF, but the Crane 2 can control all camera controls (LV toggle, Aperture, Shutter, and even Focus) right from the OLED display and focus wheel, so it was a pleasant operating experience and with the included metal tripod legs, I could put it on the floor when fatigue set in. The best part is that going from taking the gimbal out of the case to getting the camera on the gimbal to shooting was 1-2 minutes at most when pre-balanced. The part that takes the most time is learning how to initially balance the gimbal and when you need to do lens changes, but that comes with experience and doing it enough.

The Ronin-M takes more time to setup and has a number of other considerations. You will need external monitoring and some form of wireless lens control. You also need a few other accessories to be able to set it down when fatigue sets in without having someone carry the stand whenever you move. When fully equipped, it will weigh considerably more and personally even after a lot of kettle bell training, I still can't operate a setup like this unassisted for more than 20-30 mins at a time so I commonly use an easy-rig or steadicam vest. I think the DJI Ronin dual handle series are better suited for larger productions or cinema cameras.


Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 08, 2018, 01:48:43 PM
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture.  I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high.  $1000 CAD I can handle.  With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone.  It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close.  Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards.  AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing?  Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 08, 2018, 02:07:19 PM
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture.  I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high.  $1000 CAD I can handle.  With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone.  It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close.  Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards.  AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing?  Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack

Zooming while filming handheld is still a challenge for me, not sure how a gimbal would change that. With my 200-400 I finally got a good enough tripod and head that can smoothly move the camera and allow me to zoom without adding too much shake (thanks to someone who donated it to my church). With a monopod, you could probably zoom ok with a 24-70 or even 70-200. I just tried my new monopod out last night with some video, haven't checked out the results yet.

I don't believe 60p will negatively affect you later on, besides larger file sizes.

Sometimes I will export my source video files as 1080 or a lesser bitrate 4k file to store it for later use. (As has been leveled against Canon repeatedly is that the video files are so big and beautiful.) You can also delete the proxy video files too when you are done. With the videos I make, I will have many short video clips to compile a bigger movie. When archiving/storing I will often delete the video clips that I did not use to help save on space.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 08, 2018, 02:11:13 PM



I don't see them dropping in price, certainly not in the >6lb category, maybe new features and form factors but the value is there if you need the tool. The Ronin S isn't out yet and is supposed to be comparable to the Crane 2, it won't be cheaper but will have more system add ons.

As for external monitors, I haven't gone there yet as I am traveling but do have a CamRanger already that is video output capable to most phones and laptops so I might experiment when I have more time.

I recently acquired a Zhiyun Crane 2. Because the form factor is so small, external monitoring seems like overkill, so I basically try to look past the roll motor. I know the Ronin-S has the roll motor at an angle which should solve this problem.



Scott and Jay,
So you two say that the Crane 2 will work well with the 1dx2 and maybe a 24-70 2.8? The gimbal will give full range of motion with that much weight on it? I was looking at the Ronin M but if this Crane 2 will do it, it seems to be easier to hold and move around. Using the screen to get focus though could be a challenge, right?

I've never tried a gripped body on the Crane 2. The closest thing from Canon I recently shot on this gimbal was a 5DS and a 17-40L lens. The 5DS doesn't even have DPAF, but the Crane 2 can control all camera controls (LV toggle, Aperture, Shutter, and even Focus) right from the OLED display and focus wheel, so it was a pleasant operating experience and with the included metal tripod legs, I could put it on the floor when fatigue set in. The best part is that going from taking the gimbal out of the case to getting the camera on the gimbal to shooting was 1-2 minutes at most when pre-balanced. The part that takes the most time is learning how to initially balance the gimbal and when you need to do lens changes, but that comes with experience and doing it enough.

The Ronin-M takes more time to setup and has a number of other considerations. You will need external monitoring and some form of wireless lens control. You also need a few other accessories to be able to set it down when fatigue sets in without having someone carry the stand whenever you move. When fully equipped, it will weigh considerably more and personally even after a lot of kettle bell training, I still can't operate a setup like this unassisted for more than 20-30 mins at a time so I commonly use an easy-rig or steadicam vest. I think the DJI Ronin dual handle series are better suited for larger productions or cinema cameras.

Thanks Jay, that is very helpful. For only $750 I might try out the Crane 2. What is the difference between it and the other versions Zhiyun makes? Its nice that it has small legs on the bottom for resting.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: privatebydesign on March 08, 2018, 02:23:08 PM
The Zhiyun Crane 2 will take a 1DX MkII and 24-70 f2.8. You do need to either undo some screws to slide the gravity plate past its natural stop or get an extended gravity plate made especially for the gripped bodies.
 
Here is a link to it at B&H but you can get them on eBay etc https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1389917-REG/zhiyun_tech_gmb_c522_gravity_adjustment_plate_for.html

The other models they make are all much smaller capacity so will not handle or fit the 1DX MkII.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 08, 2018, 02:53:48 PM
The feedback is very much appreciated and small concepts are beginning to fall into place in a bigger picture.  I have the Zhiyun Crane 2 in my shopping cart (Amazon.ca) and am just waiting for confirmation on where the shipping is coming from and the time factor.

From first seeing the stabilized gimbals about 2 years ago I was blown away but the prices seemed really high.  $1000 CAD I can handle.  With my 6D about 4 years ago I did a video of my son playing piano with a symphony orchestra in the Edmonton Windspear Theater and I had the 70-200 and was in the balcony alone.  It was very frustrating getting the manual focus bang on, partly because without reading glasses I couldn't clearly judge up close.  Anyway, the experience was positive and negative but I had trouble panning/zooming shifting focus from one area to another and was angry at myself afterwards.  AF is a godsend.

So 4K 60, other than larger file sizes is not going to be regretted when it comes to future editing - right?

Is it relatively easy to do some trimming to remove material after the fact to reduce the files for storage and future careful editing?  Or is it better to keep the clips as small as possible?

Jack

The motion cadence of 60p dropped into a 24p timeline will not appear the same as footage shot at 24p. It may appear "strobey" or unnatural depending on the type of movement you are capturing. You should ideally shoot 60p for shots that you intend to utilize that frame rate and 24p for everything else (assuming you are trying to aim for a traditional 24p cinematic look).

Also, the shutter angle or shutter speed will have to be considered as well. Again, if you are trying to aim for a traditional 180 degree look that is common in cinema, shooting at 24p for a 180 degree shutter angle yields a shutter of 1/48s, but 60p would require 1/120s to preserve the 180 shutter angle.

None of these are hard rules, but will help you when trying to put together a consistent looking final product.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 08, 2018, 04:52:52 PM
Thanks Jay, good to know.  ethanz, appreciate your perspective also.

Scott, do you think the 70-200 2.8 II is too heavy/big - have you physically tried a few different lenses?

If one adds the dual handles to the gimbal, then control is no longer at your fingertips, right?  What about rigging up some kind of flag-pole type support?? 

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 08, 2018, 04:59:44 PM
Thanks Jay, good to know.  ethanz, appreciate your perspective also.

Scott, do you think the 70-200 2.8 II is too heavy/big - have you physically tried a few different lenses?

If one adds the dual handles to the gimbal, then control is no longer at your fingertips, right?  What about rigging up some kind of flag-pole type support?? 

Jack

Jay probably knows more than I do.

Our 1dx and 70-200 is just about 7lbs, so it would be getting close to its limit.

I know some gimbal makers have remotes that you can add to the gimbal, probably for that very reason.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 08, 2018, 06:05:41 PM
ethanz, every comment is helpful to me given my inexperience. :)

I've mentioned in another thread but to put my recent video interest in context here is where I'm determined to be in August and September.  It would be a travesty to have the 1DX2 and not do some video.

https://www.tripadvisor.ca/ShowUserReviews-g182211-d1648680-r523504816-Bella_Coola_Valley-Bella_Coola_Bella_Coola_Valley_British_Columbia.html#photos;aggregationId=101&albumid=101&filter=7&ff=285719855

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 08, 2018, 08:11:43 PM
Thanks Jay, good to know.  ethanz, appreciate your perspective also.

Scott, do you think the 70-200 2.8 II is too heavy/big - have you physically tried a few different lenses?

If one adds the dual handles to the gimbal, then control is no longer at your fingertips, right?  What about rigging up some kind of flag-pole type support?? 

Jack

Yes, Zhiyun has two remotes available. One is a $50 remote that replicates the PTZ controls of the gimbal that you can mount on the handles/extension pole. The other is a $200 remote that replicates everything including the focus wheel, oled screen, ptz and camera controls.

I haven't tried a 70-200 on the crane 2, but I have seen some Youtube videos of it balanced. It looks like extra care needs to be taken to ensure a tilt operation doesn't damage the camera because it sits very close to the roll motor at the back.

https://youtu.be/-ZeYKHzf4jo?t=6m22s



Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 08, 2018, 10:07:26 PM
Here is a good video about the Ronin vs Crane https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQIrD7eohM (and its in english :))
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 09, 2018, 01:13:01 PM
Well, after watching the videos, I just had to make the purchase so hopefully in a week or two I'll be able to also provide feedback.  I never dreamt I'd have one of these gizmos after seeing initial units and initial prices!!  Makes me think of all the threads where various people whine and complain about what crummy this or that is being produced by whomever, but mostly Canon. ;)

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 15, 2018, 12:16:37 AM
Received my unit today carelessly burned the 1DX2 replacement foot with the box and a bunch of cardboard (I was cleaning out scrap boxes from the shop and forgot the extra package was in there).  I bet no one else would ever do this!   :-[  What a stupid guy.  Anyway I found it with all the finish burned off but it cleaned up and except for the numbers is OK. :)

So, after all the fun I finally started balancing with the 11-24 and it looks to me like there are physical restrictions of travel - so if anyone has any experience please comment.

The 1DX2 has the lens much higher so the bracket that rises up to contact the lens barrel is woefully short.  That piece ensures the camera doesn't swing and stays pointing forward.  I'm sure I can create a workaround.

For now I'll probably change to the 24-70 F4 so I get a feeling for the above mentioned restrictions and whether they are inhibiting once I've got the smaller lens working.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Talys on March 15, 2018, 12:28:33 AM
I don't have any ideas for you, Jack, but I'm checking back on this thread to see how you're making out :)

Good luck!
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 15, 2018, 03:08:08 AM
Just debating to start a new thread more appropriately titled?? 

So I'm balanced with the 24-70 F4 but something pretty obvious jumps out - you certainly won't maintain balance while zooming.  So choose your FL.  A tad of zoom fine tunes the balance.

I really don't think I've got the full range of motion because moving the camera by hand through different angles does create some interference.  I'm thinking for normal reasonable vertical orientation of the handgrip it should be no problem.

Possibly the same would apply to the 11-24 but I'm concerned.  On the other hand, is full range of motion compared to a small camera really that critical relative to just doing the basics, i.e. just walking along pointing this way and that??

It's past bedtime so no more tonight.  Like with any new venture I feel like I don't have a clue what I'm doing! :)

Oh, and one hand holding is not for weaklings (like me)!  I can do it a little but only in an elevated perpendicular orientation and certainly not having the handgrip horizontal.  However, two hands is not bad.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 15, 2018, 04:11:23 AM
This is very telling of my personality ... I'm still fiddling with the gimbal and camera and the latest issue is how do I connect the gimbal micro USB to the 1DX2 - there is no such cable??

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 15, 2018, 10:06:54 AM
This is very telling of my personality ... I'm still fiddling with the gimbal and camera and the latest issue is how do I connect the gimbal micro USB to the 1DX2 - there is no such cable??

Jack

You connect the USB from the gimbal to just one part of the USB slot in the 1dx. It doesn't completely fill the 1dx usb slot.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 15, 2018, 11:58:53 AM
This is very telling of my personality ... I'm still fiddling with the gimbal and camera and the latest issue is how do I connect the gimbal micro USB to the 1DX2 - there is no such cable??

Jack

Yes, there is a small zippered box under the gimbal in the carrying case. It contains a few cables incuding one marked "Canon." There is also a Sony cable and a Panasonic cable (as I remember). The longer end (where the connector is physically longer goes into the camera. I then tuck the flap under the connector to make sure it doesn't move around as the gimbal moves.

Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 15, 2018, 12:12:44 PM
This is very telling of my personality ... I'm still fiddling with the gimbal and camera and the latest issue is how do I connect the gimbal micro USB to the 1DX2 - there is no such cable??

Jack

Yes, there is a small zippered box under the gimbal in the carrying case. It contains a few cables incuding one marked "Canon." There is also a Sony cable and a Panasonic cable (as I remember). The longer end (where the connector is physically longer goes into the camera. I then tuck the flap under the connector to make sure it doesn't move around as the gimbal moves.

Thanks you two.  It seems I didn't see with sleepy eyes that the 1DX2 has a connector that is like two in one with one being micro USB.  I was fearful of try to insert the micro USB.  What confusion when I started googling cables - the naming and variations. :-\

Out of curiosity, what is the the tiny part of that connector?

Batteries are charged and once I come out of deep sleep mode I'll try it out and then move to the 11-24.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 15, 2018, 12:16:01 PM
I believe the usb connector on the 1dx is usb 3, so it has the standard connection and a little extra connection for the increased bandwidth. Just my assumption.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: privatebydesign on March 15, 2018, 12:29:48 PM
The 1DX MkII has a USB 3.0 Micro-B SuperSpeed socket, the additional 5 connectors are for speed and any other functionality USB 3 enables. A regular USB Micro-B fits the USB 3.0 Micro-B SuperSpeed socket but negates any USB 3.0 functionality and speed.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 15, 2018, 12:41:43 PM
This is very telling of my personality ... I'm still fiddling with the gimbal and camera and the latest issue is how do I connect the gimbal micro USB to the 1DX2 - there is no such cable??

Jack

Yes, there is a small zippered box under the gimbal in the carrying case. It contains a few cables incuding one marked "Canon." There is also a Sony cable and a Panasonic cable (as I remember). The longer end (where the connector is physically longer goes into the camera. I then tuck the flap under the connector to make sure it doesn't move around as the gimbal moves.

Thanks you two.  It seems I didn't see with sleepy eyes that the 1DX2 has a connector that is like two in one with one being micro USB.  I was fearful of try to insert the micro USB.  What confusion when I started googling cables - the naming and variations. :-\

Out of curiosity, what is the the tiny part of that connector?

Batteries are charged and once I come out of deep sleep mode I'll try it out and then move to the 11-24.

Jack

Yup, no problems at all. It's the same when I was shooting with the 5DS, you just need to plug the included micro usb cable into the lower end of the USB connection on the camera. The extra pins for USB 3 are not required.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: jayphotoworks on March 15, 2018, 12:42:51 PM
Sometimes the gimbal doesn't control the camera depending on the power on order. I can't remember exactly, but I usually turn on the gimbal first, then turn on the camera second.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 15, 2018, 12:42:57 PM
Thanks Scott - have you actually had the 11-24 functioning on the gimbal at this point in time?  When full movement is limited, it appears that bumping and scratching can take place depending on how one orients/handles the unit.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: privatebydesign on March 15, 2018, 01:23:03 PM
Thanks Scott - have you actually had the 11-24 functioning on the gimbal at this point in time?  When full movement is limited, it appears that bumping and scratching can take place depending on how one orients/handles the unit.

Jack

Hi Jack,

I did but only briefly. I have the camera and lens with me but the gimbal (and a lot more) was too much for my luggage allowance and has been shipped down separately. I am on a 12 month project in the Caribbean and hope to catch up with the rest of the gear I sent down in a few weeks.

But even after a brief workout I'd agree that care needs to be taken with handling the gimbal so as to not damage anything, video is (as I expected) proving a steep learning curve!
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 15, 2018, 01:37:51 PM
Steep, for you ... oh dear now I'm anxious and feeling lost.  :(  Later today, I'm going to start a new thread, something like, "Anyone with interest in the Crane 2 Gimbal" or ?? suggestion.

My feeling is that there would be more interest in video if people realized that this kind of magic is within virtually anyone's budget.  As in the past, I'd say not using the 1DX2 video capabilities is almost criminal. ;)

Scott it must be hard to take an assignment like that!!

I did operate the Crane 2 a few minutes ago with the 24-70 and behavior was predictable and stable and I actual fired a shot but I now need to get more familiar with the buttons and modes etc.  Presently I don't have a second camera to post shots of the mount clearances etc. - maybe my wife's cell phone will do.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 15, 2018, 08:56:27 PM
Here is the new thread: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=34702.0

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: stevelee on March 15, 2018, 11:48:14 PM

As we've talked about before, I use Premiere for video editing. It is a full feature software. I shoot in 4k typically and then create proxies (basically a downsized version of the file that the software uses for editing, but then reverts back to the source video for final output encoding). Even with my nice computer Premiere has problems playing 4K, even on the 1/4 playback setting. In my mind, Premiere is not very efficient. From what I've heard, FCP has been finely tuned to work 4K well on Macs.

I don’t shoot 4K very often, since my iPhone 6S is the only thing I have that will shoot it. FCP runs great on my 3-year-old iMac when editing 4K. I can’t tell any performance difference from editing 1080p, other than the fan might come on a little more often. It does have an i7 processor and a SSD. Once I’m done, I tell FCP to delete all the work and cache files. They can take up most of the considerable free space on the SSD.

I haven’t tried 4K in Premiere. I am so used to FCP X that I am a lot slower in Premiere. The only advantage for me is that color grading is more Photoshop-like to me.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 16, 2018, 01:55:05 AM
Another dumb question I guess - do edit panning and zooming movements apply only to still footage?

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 16, 2018, 08:14:49 AM
Another dumb question I guess - do edit panning and zooming movements apply only to still footage?

Jack

Please rephrase that, I don't understand.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: stevelee on March 16, 2018, 10:58:47 AM
Another dumb question I guess - do edit panning and zooming movements apply only to still footage?

Jack

Goodness, no, if you mean what I think you do. With still footage you get what is called, for obvious reasons, the "Ken Burns effect." But there is much you can do with video.

I have mentioned in various threads, maybe even this one, my annual video project of shooting after-hours pick-up basketball games during basketball camp on the nearby campus. I have a small but avid audience for the videos, guys outside this area who want to see how the incoming freshmen look playing with/against current and former players, most of whom are now pros in Europe, so they have the summer off and help with camp. (I've seen just one NBA player come back, and the last time he had time to participate, his little brother who was playing at Duke, but now in the NBA, came with him.)

I generally shoot with whatever is my newest camera. Sometimes the camera was so new that I use the project to learn how to use it.

When my iPhone 6s was relatively new, I used it to shoot 4K video. So I am in the stands shooting basketball from, I don't know, 30 or 50 feet away, using a fixed wide-angle lens, and I'm wanting video that shows the plays, not the ambiance of an almost empty arena. I used Final Cut Pro to zoom in and pan, etc., just as I might have done with a camera itself. Even with other cameras, I set the view a little wider than what I want in the final video, because you can't always anticipate who will run where and to whom the ball might be passed. Or there could be a steal. In the case of the iPhone, the extra resolution of the 4K gave me plenty of resolution to produce 1080p or 750p with little or no upsampling. FCP gives you several ways of accomplishing this, some of which I understand and can use, and some of which I've never bothered to learn.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: stevelee on March 16, 2018, 12:09:42 PM
Here's a video from that summer: https://youtu.be/8yq4D62mgDA (https://youtu.be/8yq4D62mgDA)

One thing I forgot to mention in the message above is rotation. I'm just casually holding the phone in the general direction of the players, so I usually am not holding it quite level. At the beginning of the video you can see where I messed up. Look in the upper right and lower left corners, and you will see black triangles from outside the original frame, showing how much it is rotated. Normally, I would zoom in slightly to eliminate that from view, but it does show you the picture rotation. I do a quick edit, often late at night, so I don't always catch errors like that. My small but faithful audience doesn't care about production values. I posted this at 720p on YouTube, but probably could have got away with 1080p, judging by how well it holds up viewed full screen on my 5K iMac.

Of course you don't need to watch the whole thing to get my point. The second clip, about 0:15, starts with a couple of zooms, all done in software. A few places I zoom out to show a friend's reactions. He would be someone the intended audience would know, if not in person, at least on line. Since I'm sitting with other fans, the phone is picking up a lot of the conversation, not all of which they or I would want to be on the internet; nothing bad or vulgar, but some frank observations and banter between friends not intended for public consumption. I don't want folks to feel they have to edit their conversations when I'm shooting. Since I pick up the sounds of shoes squeaking, etc., I just pull in some sound from an area where no one is talking and lower the volume in the main audio.

(BTW, some of the players in this video ended their college career in Boise, Idaho, last night in a narrow loss to Kentucky in the NCAA tournament.)

The iPhone dealt with color balance better than the G7X II the next summer. They don't turn on the TV lights in the arena, but the regular lights give plenty of illumination to shoot by, just quirky color. Also the sea of empty red seats across the way makes cameras compensate by shifting toward cyan. I don't know that I tried any color correction in this footage. I'm not very good with color grading, as they call it, in FCP. The tools are more like what pros have used. Premiere is more intuitive for old Photoshop hands in that regard. The newest version of FCP supposedly has added some tools, but I haven't tried them. If I use my 6D2 this summer, I'll take a piece of white paper or a gray card with me and try custom white balance. I should have tried that with the G7X II last year, I know now.

Another thing the software can do is analyze a clip for camera shake and do software stabilization. The magnification is increased a bit to accomplish that. It is a lot like what happens in video on the 6D2 when you use in-camera stabilization. There are more arcane things that I don't use, such as rolling shutter compensation.

I think I will shoot 60 fps this year so that slo mo replays can be smoother. I'm not sure how that might affect the look of the regular speed. I know software will throw out every other frame to get the final 30fps, but the shutter speed will still be faster, giving less blur to the motion. Generally people prefer some motion blur, and if it is too sharp, they call it a soap opera effect. And I know my intended audience won't care.

Oh, and a final thing to illustrate zoom in software is that you can show multiple frames at the same time. As an exercise in editing, I took a movement from Bach's B-minor Mass that I sang in and edited in basketball video to fit. It helped that the timing of a 3-point shot from hand to basket fit an element of the music, most obviously illustrated in the sequence starting about 2:11 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5QPFV7QhhQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5QPFV7QhhQ). Relevant to this question is that as I got toward the end, I had more video I wanted to include than would fit, so for no cinematic reason, but as a learning exercise, I made the video half size and did a four-panel split screen, starting at 3:22.

I think the video was shot with my S120, if anyone is curious. If not that, then probably the S95 I used before I got the S120.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 16, 2018, 03:04:17 PM
Thanks Steve, that was my concern after looking at the advertised features at:

https://filmora.wondershare.net/video-editor/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5ZeZ-cLx2QIVVWt-Ch1r5AwQEAAYASABEgIEmfD_BwE

"Pan and Zoom
Add panning and zooming movements to still footage."

Seems I somehow linked to the wrong software.

I posed this to Corel regarding their latest Video Studio (I have X9) and the guy didn't know, checked and then said no it couldn't do it.  That initialized my confusion and doubts.

For nature and animals I would want what you describe for sure otherwise what's the point.  :-[

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 16, 2018, 03:08:54 PM
Steve, BTW any extra comments and samples such as you just did are really appreciated, especially by someone so clueless as I am at the moment!

I'd prefer to make the correct choice of editing software once and for all especially after wasting money on Corel.  I'm guessing 10 yr. old 64 bit quad core Pentium with 6GB Ram is not really adequate??

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 16, 2018, 05:58:03 PM
I think I understand what you are asking now. In Premiere I can pan and zoom video clips by adjusting the video size/position properties along the time line. With proxies you should be able to edit anything on that computer. A 4K, 23p video file from the 1dx that is 33 seconds long is 2GB. It's proxy is a 1/4 the resolution, so 1024x540 and is only 43MB.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 16, 2018, 06:09:13 PM
I think I understand what you are asking now. In Premiere I can pan and zoom video clips by adjusting the video size/position properties along the time line. With proxies you should be able to edit anything on that computer. A 4K, 23p video file from the 1dx that is 33 seconds long is 2GB. It's proxy is a 1/4 the resolution, so 1024x540 and is only 43MB.


Thanks ... so much to keep track of.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: stevelee on March 16, 2018, 06:43:44 PM
Steve, BTW any extra comments and samples such as you just did are really appreciated, especially by someone so clueless as I am at the moment!

I'd prefer to make the correct choice of editing software once and for all especially after wasting money on Corel.  I'm guessing 10 yr. old 64 bit quad core Pentium with 6GB Ram is not really adequate??

Jack

People used to do a whole lot with much less computing power. You just have to be more patient. Also, newer versions of software will require more resources. I've used Macs since 1987, and while I've had occasion to use PCs, I've never done any graphics or video work on one. I gather that there is feature parity between platforms on the Adobe stuff. But for cheaper alternatives, I am not in position to suggest anything. iMovie comes on Macs, and FCP X costs just $200. I was used to paying $600 every year or two to update my Adobe suite, so paying $50 a month to get the whole shebang wasn't a stretch, even though I resented and resisted the subscription model.

For a point of comparison, I will mention my experience on my now 12-year-old Mac Pro vs. my 3 1/2-year-old iMac. I use FCP X for editing, and then pass off to Compressor to do the final file(s). I wouldn't have to do that, but it gives more options. With the old Mac I'd start the Compressor queue and go to bed. With the iMac I start Compressor and visit the bathroom or get a snack out of the fridge. That would be for videos similar in length to the ones linked above.

I really find that remarkable given how many things it is doing with the original clips, rotating, resizing, cropping, etc., every frame. Compressor puts out finished video files in two or three resolutions, if you tell it to do that, in time comparable to the length of the video, IOW 12 minutes or so for a 10-minute video is not unusual.

So on your PC you can work on a small proxy as ethanz suggests, and then sleep or go out for pizza when the final version is rendered.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 16, 2018, 07:56:59 PM
I think I understand what you are asking now. In Premiere I can pan and zoom video clips by adjusting the video size/position properties along the time line. With proxies you should be able to edit anything on that computer. A 4K, 23p video file from the 1dx that is 33 seconds long is 2GB. It's proxy is a 1/4 the resolution, so 1024x540 and is only 43MB.

Thanks guys, again my head is beginning to spin.  I've been watching too many gimbal videos too.

Have to laugh at the situation non-Canon users find themselves in relative to the Crane 2 and follow focus - stupid Canon - yeah right!  Seems to me Canon is fully supported for good reasons.  And then there is DPAF. :)

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 29, 2018, 01:48:53 AM
Just thought I'd update a bit on the Crane 2.  I'd say there is no problem with the 11-24 and the 24-70 F4 of course and only a bit of a problem with the 70-200 2.8 II.  If memory serves me correctly, it may not balance at 70 but I only used it at 200 and yes, it was really close by the eye cup; I even removed the slip on rubber.  However, one doesn't really need much tilt and panning is no problem.

Now, trying to monitor the LCD is another story and unless I can modify the settings to slow the motors down it's very challenging to drive to a position and stop on target.  Unless I can become much more skilled I can't imagine walking around with 200.

Scott, or anyone else - I'm wondering if there is any way to use the gimbal and remote control via CamRanger for greater range?

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: ethanz on March 29, 2018, 10:42:43 AM
Just thought I'd update a bit on the Crane 2.  I'd say there is no problem with the 11-24 and the 24-70 F4 of course and only a bit of a problem with the 70-200 2.8 II.  If memory serves me correctly, it may not balance at 70 but I only used it at 200 and yes, it was really close by the eye cup; I even removed the slip on rubber.  However, one doesn't really need much tilt and panning is no problem.

Now, trying to monitor the LCD is another story and unless I can modify the settings to slow the motors down it's very challenging to drive to a position and stop on target.  Unless I can become much more skilled I can't imagine walking around with 200.

Scott, or anyone else - I'm wondering if there is any way to use the gimbal and remote control via CamRanger for greater range?

Jack

In the manual I did read there is a way to slow the motors down or the sensitivity. Also I think there is a smartphone app (I know you don't have a smartphone) but I have not tried it out yet. Been very busy!
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 29, 2018, 11:28:46 AM
In case you feel lonely in your lack of spare time, I'm keeping you company.  My floor tiling of 2015 got injected right in the time frame of my stainless steel deck railing project of 2013 and is now back on track for completion soon (please, please) and the tiling had been interrupted by the granite on the planter project of 2016, which required the construction of a large saw first.  Then there is the workshop parging of the shop built prior to all this and the auto restoration put on hold before the workshop construction began.  Every project delay requires storage of junk, which just complicates every project.

OK, I'm ready to be consoled ... or scolded for my lack of self control. ;)  And some people are bored in retirement!

One question, I lost track of the link to, I think, a location where an earlier copy of Adobe Premier Pro can be purchased and also I'm wondering if it would be compatible with Win 7 or newer moving forward?

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 29, 2018, 11:51:43 AM
I must apologize for hijacking the thread to some degree way back.  Hopefully the direction the thread took was still of some value to the OP.  I have just read through pretty much the whole thread and a lot of things are making more sense to me but many more questions are popping up.

Relative to the 1DX2 and shooting 1080, I guess that only makes sense if one wants the 120 fps or is 4K 60 going to be a better choice.  To what extent does slow motion in your output depend on this choice?  Every question I ask rings as dumb in my mind but I'm asking anyway.  No point pretending I know what I don't.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: RyanV on March 29, 2018, 03:53:18 PM
I haven't done scientific tests but owning both the 1DX II and 5D3 (and having used both as my primary cameras at different points) I would say the 1080 quality is the same for both. 1080@60p on the 1DX II is noticeably softer, however. I believe the best 1080 on a Canon DSLR is the Super35 1080 mode on the 1DC.

I shoot 4k on the 1DX II and 5D IV and, in most cases, downsample to 2k/1080p in Davinci. The result is orders of magnitude sharper than the 1080p modes on both cameras and definitely worth the extra step of transcoding.

I agree with this. Just shoot in 4K and then either proxy edit or transcode for best results.
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on March 31, 2018, 09:20:10 PM
I'm wondering if someone who's been shooting quite a bit of serious video with the 1DX2 would share their idea of the best settings.  Comments on using it with the Crane 2 would be a bonus.

One issue I have is that AF goes inactive and it seems I have to regularly reactivate it with my shutter button??  I'm thinking I should dedicate one of the C settings to video but am still a little confused by what settings (AF especially) overlap or don't overlap in going from photos to video.

A comment I have from my limited use of the Crane 2 is that it's really hard to get used to that very light touch slider that controls low and high speed pans or tilts.  My thumb almost always moves it to rapid while hardly even noticing the first engagement.  I think part of the issue is having a heavy object gripped firmly and having a very light control to manipulate at the same time.  It's so small and slippery.  I'm not sure if I would prefer a depressed style of controller but for sure I wish it had more and firmer travel.

Jack
Title: Re: 1080 video quality on 5dmk4 and 1dx2 vs competition?
Post by: Jack Douglas on April 01, 2018, 12:11:44 PM
Here goes another "dumb" question.  I presume I can't do anything with the crane 2 from my Windows 7 computer and must use a phone to set the parameters to suit my liking due to lack of blue tooth?? 

My wife has the smart phone and says that when she went to download the app it said something about Google play and payment but I'll have to try to verify what's going on myself.  With no phone of my own I have reasonable savvy of computer operations but not the phone (I know it seems trivial but there is a learning curve at the beginning) :)

Anyone else find the joystick operation to be backward by default - guess I function like a teeter totter. :-\

Jack