canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => Speedlites, Printers, Accessories => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on February 23, 2018, 10:03:58 AM

Title: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Canon Rumors on February 23, 2018, 10:03:58 AM
The Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI will be announced alongside the Canon EOS M50 in a few days. This was a flash that was supposed to be announced last summer but was delayed for unknown reasons.

Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Specifications: (via Digicame-Info)

This new flash is scheduled to begin shipping in April of 2018.

Title: Re: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Sharlin on February 23, 2018, 10:34:51 AM
Damn. Looks like there’s actually automatic adjustment of the bounce angle.  :o
Title: Re: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: tron on February 23, 2018, 10:35:07 AM
This was a flash that was supposed to be announced last summer but was delayed for unknown reasons
Maybe it wasn't ... Intelligent enough  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: magarity on February 23, 2018, 10:36:37 AM
It looks like the guesses about somehow sensing the distance and color of the bounce surface win. There's a little round sensor-looking thingy next to where the diffuser slides into but nowhere looks like an opening for a second path for light to come out.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: daleg on February 23, 2018, 11:37:39 AM
maybe Canon held it back for the release of the "EOS 8D Mark II"

btw, what's is the "EOS 8D Mark II"?

see description in announcement !?!?
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: wickedac on February 23, 2018, 11:38:03 AM
Who is this even for? I don't get it. Does it spin around measuring distances, etc first? That would add a lot of time to the shot.I feel like if you're savvy enough to understand the usefulness of bouncing a speedlight off a wall or ceiling you'd rather choose for yourself how the light is shaped and just do it quickly.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: CanonGrunt on February 23, 2018, 11:46:41 AM
maybe Canon held it back for the release of the "EOS 8D Mark II"

btw, what's is the "EOS 8D Mark II"?

see description in announcement !?!?


Oh boy!! I’ve been waiting forever for a replacement for my 8D!!! 🙃😂🧐
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: IglooEater on February 23, 2018, 11:59:23 AM
What is “auto bounce”?

360 degree sensors evaluate the room and the subject, then a motorized head automatically rotates the flash to likely best exposure, based on your selection of 5 steps between "dramatic" and "symmetrical"  8)

Ok, well, here's wishin'

Okay Talys. Your idea was much closer than I expected - I have to give you that. Hat’s off.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: CanonFanBoy on February 23, 2018, 12:15:36 PM
What is “auto bounce”?

360 degree sensors evaluate the room and the subject, then a motorized head automatically rotates the flash to likely best exposure, based on your selection of 5 steps between "dramatic" and "symmetrical"  8)

Ok, well, here's wishin'

Okay Talys. Your idea was much closer than I expected - I have to give you that. Hat’s off.

I guess what I thought couldn't be done is now done. Wait for the lawsuit. Canon could not have invented this. Everyone knows Canon doesn't innovate.  ::) :)
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 23, 2018, 01:05:14 PM
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: ajfotofilmagem on February 23, 2018, 01:36:23 PM
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
More difficult than geometry, is knowing the distance, the reflectivity and the color of the ceiling in the real world. If the flash is able to calculate all that and adjust properly, even with the camera in portrait orientation, it would be a great technological leap.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 23, 2018, 02:22:59 PM
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
More difficult than geometry, is knowing the distance, the reflectivity and the color of the ceiling in the real world. If the flash is able to calculate all that and adjust properly, even with the camera in portrait orientation, it would be a great technological leap.

If...

Where in, "With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows," do you interpret an ability to determine reflectivity and color?  Incidentally, E-TTL will handle the reflectivity, there's no need for the flash to determine that a priori.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: rrcphoto on February 23, 2018, 02:24:51 PM
maybe Canon held it back for the release of the "EOS 8D Mark II"

btw, what's is the "EOS 8D Mark II"?

see description in announcement !?!?

that's a machine translation error.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: ajfotofilmagem on February 23, 2018, 02:40:18 PM
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
More difficult than geometry, is knowing the distance, the reflectivity and the color of the ceiling in the real world. If the flash is able to calculate all that and adjust properly, even with the camera in portrait orientation, it would be a great technological leap.

If...

Where in, "With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows," do you interpret an ability to determine reflectivity and color?  Incidentally, E-TTL will handle the reflectivity, there's no need for the flash to determine that a priori.
I really do not like the result of bouncing the flash on ceilings of any color, other than white. If this 470EX can measure and tell the camera the correct color of the reflected light, then it would be something beyond the beautiful words of the marketing staff.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: mb66energy on February 23, 2018, 03:22:23 PM
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
More difficult than geometry, is knowing the distance, the reflectivity and the color of the ceiling in the real world. If the flash is able to calculate all that and adjust properly, even with the camera in portrait orientation, it would be a great technological leap.

If...

Where in, "With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows," do you interpret an ability to determine reflectivity and color?  Incidentally, E-TTL will handle the reflectivity, there's no need for the flash to determine that a priori.

But E-TTL cannot measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface so this has to be handled by the flash to mix the direct and bounced fractions of light correctly.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 23, 2018, 03:53:17 PM
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
More difficult than geometry, is knowing the distance, the reflectivity and the color of the ceiling in the real world. If the flash is able to calculate all that and adjust properly, even with the camera in portrait orientation, it would be a great technological leap.

If...

Where in, "With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows," do you interpret an ability to determine reflectivity and color?  Incidentally, E-TTL will handle the reflectivity, there's no need for the flash to determine that a priori.

But E-TTL cannot measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface so this has to be handled by the flash to mix the direct and bounced fractions of light correctly.

I didn't mean to imply that E-TTL measures the reflectivity.  But the reflectivity of the bounce surface determines how much bounced light reaches the subject, and E-TTL determines exposure based on light reflected from the subject. In that way, E-TTL 'handles' the reflectivity of the bounce surface.

What 'direct fraction' are you talking about mixing?  If the head is elevated, it's all bounced (well, except for spill, but again, E-TTL handles that). 

I'm not sure why people think that this 'AI auto bounce' feature is addressing flash exposure...that's what E-TTL does. The point is, E-TTL cares about how much light reflects back from the subject, not how that light gets to the subject.  Whether direct or bounced, coming from one flash or 12 flashes, it doesn't matter.  The point of this feature seems exactly as described: determining the optimal bounce position to eliminate unnecessary shadows.

Also, consider this: the exposure calculations are done based on a pre-flash, which occurs with almost no temporal separation from the actual exposure.  The electric head rotation motor isn't going to move the flash head instantaneously.  In other words, the AI auto bounce head movement will happen before the pre-flash/exposure sequence.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: mb66energy on February 23, 2018, 06:03:22 PM
'Auto Intelligence' seems like an awfully grandiose moniker for simple geometry.  ::)
More difficult than geometry, is knowing the distance, the reflectivity and the color of the ceiling in the real world. If the flash is able to calculate all that and adjust properly, even with the camera in portrait orientation, it would be a great technological leap.

If...

Where in, "With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows," do you interpret an ability to determine reflectivity and color?  Incidentally, E-TTL will handle the reflectivity, there's no need for the flash to determine that a priori.

But E-TTL cannot measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface so this has to be handled by the flash to mix the direct and bounced fractions of light correctly.

I didn't mean to imply that E-TTL measures the reflectivity.  But the reflectivity of the bounce surface determines how much bounced light reaches the subject, and E-TTL determines exposure based on light reflected from the subject. In that way, E-TTL 'handles' the reflectivity of the bounce surface.

What 'direct fraction' are you talking about mixing?  If the head is elevated, it's all bounced (well, except for spill, but again, E-TTL handles that). 

I'm not sure why people think that this 'AI auto bounce' feature is addressing flash exposure...that's what E-TTL does. The point is, E-TTL cares about how much light reflects back from the subject, not how that light gets to the subject.  Whether direct or bounced, coming from one flash or 12 flashes, it doesn't matter.  The point of this feature seems exactly as described: determining the optimal bounce position to eliminate unnecessary shadows.

Also, consider this: the exposure calculations are done based on a pre-flash, which occurs with almost no temporal separation from the actual exposure.  The electric head rotation motor isn't going to move the flash head instantaneously.  In other words, the AI auto bounce head movement will happen before the pre-flash/exposure sequence.

I think I know what E-TTL does. But how can the camera "decide" if there is a good angle of the flash without knowing what is in front of the flash reflector? IMO there is a need for some device in the flash that helps to measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface. This has to be used for flash positioning. And at least: If there is no bounce surface the flash has to detect this and switch to direct light only instead of wasting light into the sky.
And a 30 degree angle - measured against the optical axis of the lens - should emit a substantial fraction of direct light onto the object but a substantial fraction of bounced light (if there is a bounce surface).
The round thing (upper right corner of reflector section) is maybe a sensor to do this: E.g. a small LIDAR which (1) measures distance, (2) can also obtain reflectivity data and (3) scan the room geometry by scanning the distance during a sweep of the head.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: brad-man on February 23, 2018, 06:44:50 PM
So what's the deal? The motor sucks so much juice from the batteries that they didn't want to include RT functionality? So this thing has less than half the power of the 430-RT and costs 60% more. I wonder who would choose this flash over the 430?
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: tron on February 23, 2018, 07:19:46 PM
I do not believe that the flash will be very AI at the end. Probably more like N.S.  ;D

P.S Feel free to ask for clarifications about the acronym  :D
Very helpful Hint: It is the opposite of AI  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 23, 2018, 07:56:46 PM
I think I know what E-TTL does. But how can the camera "decide" if there is a good angle of the flash without knowing what is in front of the flash reflector? IMO there is a need for some device in the flash that helps to measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface. This has to be used for flash positioning. And at least: If there is no bounce surface the flash has to detect this and switch to direct light only instead of wasting light into the sky.

I thkn you're sounding like those who saw the 'dual-sensing IS' feature on the M50 and concluded that it has IBIS: reading too much into this.

Quote
With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows.

The goal is to eliminate unnecessary shadows, which is a geometry problem. The solution requires knowing the distance to the subject (which the lens provides, that's E-TTL II), and the distance to the bounce surface (which, presumably, is what the sensor on the front of the flash head measures). 

Sure, it's possible that the flash measures the reflectivity, color, angle (not all ceilings are flat), temperature, roughness, and/or Rayleigh scattering properties of the bounce surface. But I'll bet it measures only distance. That would cover the case where someone tries to use it under the open sky, or under a 40' ceiling. 
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: wsmith96 on February 23, 2018, 08:10:41 PM
Sounds like something else that will break.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Jim Saunders on February 23, 2018, 09:38:46 PM
So it does a thing, but is that thing useful?  At first glance I don't think so, but the improved display sounds like a start for the 600EX-RT III.

Show me an ST-E4-RT that has plain old mechanical dials or discrete buttons for the power level of each group and a bracket that tips up so you can see the (ahem) thing and I'll get excited.

Jim
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Chaitanya on February 23, 2018, 11:18:07 PM
Looks interesting not sure if the AIB will be another gimmic or something that actually works fine.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Adelino on February 23, 2018, 11:31:08 PM
Canon are generally not too gimmicky. I will be interested to find out more about this flash.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: mb66energy on February 24, 2018, 04:07:18 AM
I think I know what E-TTL does. But how can the camera "decide" if there is a good angle of the flash without knowing what is in front of the flash reflector? IMO there is a need for some device in the flash that helps to measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface. This has to be used for flash positioning. And at least: If there is no bounce surface the flash has to detect this and switch to direct light only instead of wasting light into the sky.

I thkn you're sounding like those who saw the 'dual-sensing IS' feature on the M50 and concluded that it has IBIS: reading too much into this.

Back to the facts ... below

Quote
With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows.

The goal is to eliminate unnecessary shadows, which is a geometry problem. The solution requires knowing the distance to the subject (which the lens provides, that's E-TTL II), and the distance to the bounce surface (which, presumably, is what the sensor on the front of the flash head measures). 

Sure, it's possible that the flash measures the reflectivity, color, angle (not all ceilings are flat), temperature, roughness, and/or Rayleigh scattering properties of the bounce surface. But I'll bet it measures only distance. That would cover the case where someone tries to use it under the open sky, or under a 40' ceiling.

My argument against measuring only the distance is that there is no substantial difference between open sky or a black ceiling at 3m distance.

My idea of a tiny LIDAR in the flash could report reflectivity of the bounce surface as a side product of its operating system - but LIDAR is speculative, I know only the VL53L0X ranger and it needs two windows but is very cheap (I think $5 if you buy a pack of 1000 pieces) and works up to 4m with well reflecting targets. Distance resolution is about 2mm 1 sigma and it works in the near IR which is not too far from the visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Remote Rayleigh scattering and surface roughness analysis is - maybe - a little bit to complicate for a 400 $/EUR package that is also an AI flash :)
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: CanonFanBoy on February 24, 2018, 03:05:20 PM
Que the pessimists in 3, 2, 1... wait, they've already started.  :'(

Sony
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Cariboucoach on February 24, 2018, 03:49:07 PM

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Photorex on February 24, 2018, 04:04:16 PM

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?

Where do you have that GN of 141 from for your EX 430II? This flash has a GN of 43 @ 105mm/ISO100.

The name of the flash is a hint to the GN EX 430 = GN 43
EX 580 = GN 58
EX 600 = GN 60

and now EX 470 = GN 47

Frank
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Sharlin on February 24, 2018, 04:28:51 PM

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?

Where do you have that GN of 141 from for your EX 430II? This flash has a GN of 43 @ 105mm/ISO100.

The name of the flash is a hint to the GN EX 430 = GN 43
EX 580 = GN 58
EX 600 = GN 60

and now EX 470 = GN 47

Feet vs. meters, I presume. 43 m ≈ 141 feet. 47 m ≈ 154 feet. 'Muricans really should use meter-based GNs like the rest of the world—it's not like the literal "distance" meaning of GNs is very relevant these days anyway.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Cariboucoach on February 24, 2018, 04:32:51 PM

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?

Where do you have that GN of 141 from for your EX 430II? This flash has a GN of 43 @ 105mm/ISO100.

The name of the flash is a hint to the GN EX 430 = GN 43
EX 580 = GN 58
EX 600 = GN 60

and now EX 470 = GN 47

Frank

This is from the Canon USA website;
Superior build quality, including a metal foot for added strength
Approx. 20% faster recycling time, compared to previous 430EX
One-touch, quick-lock mechanism for easy attaching/detaching flash from camera
Full flash control possible on camera menu, with compatible EOS Digital SLR cameras
Virtually silent flash recycle
The flash head can be moved up from 0 - 90° (5 settings), left from 0 - 180° (7 settings) and right from 0 - 90° (4 settings)
Zoom flash head covers range of 24-105mm; maximum guide number 141 ft./43m at ISO 100

[iN] Now that I look at it, the guide number 47 is in meters and I am quoting feet with my EX 430. [/i]
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Viggo on February 24, 2018, 06:26:49 PM
What could be cool is of one could lock the bounce point so when you change camera angles the flash adjusts as to keep the same light like it was on a light stand ;D
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: brad-man on February 25, 2018, 10:17:09 AM

<li>The guide number is 47 (105 mm). It is driven by 4 AA batteries.</li>

This seems like a very low guide number. My EX 430 ii has a guide number of 141. Who would use this flash?

Where do you have that GN of 141 from for your EX 430II? This flash has a GN of 43 @ 105mm/ISO100.

The name of the flash is a hint to the GN EX 430 = GN 43
EX 580 = GN 58
EX 600 = GN 60

and now EX 470 = GN 47

Feet vs. meters, I presume. 43 m ≈ 141 feet. 47 m ≈ 154 feet. 'Muricans really should use meter-based GNs like the rest of the world—it's not like the literal "distance" meaning of GNs is very relevant these days anyway.

Oops. Never really considered myself a "Murican" before, but in this instance, I guess I'm guilty. I still wouldn't consider buying a speedlite without RT, but I guess this release is for the kit lens crowd who won't be buying a second flash.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: ajfotofilmagem on February 25, 2018, 12:09:23 PM




Oops. Never really considered myself a "Murican" before, but in this instance, I guess I'm guilty. I still wouldn't consider buying a speedlite without RT, but I guess this release is for the kit lens crowd who won't be buying a second flash.
It seems to me that 470EX AI is intended for photojournalists, more specifically the paparazzi, who does not have time to adjust the flash head to avoid shadows. It's not just a matter of price as it is not really practical to carry 2 or 3 600EX RT units, and position them in a theater staircase or lobby of a hotel where a famous person will pass in a hurry.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 26, 2018, 12:10:08 AM
I think I know what E-TTL does. But how can the camera "decide" if there is a good angle of the flash without knowing what is in front of the flash reflector? IMO there is a need for some device in the flash that helps to measure the reflectivity of the bounce surface. This has to be used for flash positioning. And at least: If there is no bounce surface the flash has to detect this and switch to direct light only instead of wasting light into the sky.

I thkn you're sounding like those who saw the 'dual-sensing IS' feature on the M50 and concluded that it has IBIS: reading too much into this.

Back to the facts ... below

Quote
With an electric head rotation device, the 470EX-AI automatically determines the optimal bounce position eliminating unnecessary shadows.

The goal is to eliminate unnecessary shadows, which is a geometry problem. The solution requires knowing the distance to the subject (which the lens provides, that's E-TTL II), and the distance to the bounce surface (which, presumably, is what the sensor on the front of the flash head measures). 

Sure, it's possible that the flash measures the reflectivity, color, angle (not all ceilings are flat), temperature, roughness, and/or Rayleigh scattering properties of the bounce surface. But I'll bet it measures only distance. That would cover the case where someone tries to use it under the open sky, or under a 40' ceiling.

My argument against measuring only the distance is that there is no substantial difference between open sky or a black ceiling at 3m distance.

My idea of a tiny LIDAR in the flash could report reflectivity of the bounce surface as a side product of its operating system - but LIDAR is speculative, I know only the VL53L0X ranger and it needs two windows but is very cheap (I think $5 if you buy a pack of 1000 pieces) and works up to 4m with well reflecting targets. Distance resolution is about 2mm 1 sigma and it works in the near IR which is not too far from the visible part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

Remote Rayleigh scattering and surface roughness analysis is - maybe - a little bit to complicate for a 400 $/EUR package that is also an AI flash :)

Back to the facts ... below

Quote from: Canon
At the core of Canon’s Speedlite 470EX-AI Flash is the innovative, new AI Bounce technology. AI Bounce automatically and intelligently determines and dictates the optimal angle of flash based off two distance variables: the distance between the camera and the ceiling, and the distance between the camera and the shooting subject.

I think you'll agree that Canon's description of their AI Bounce technology bears more than a passing resemblance to my description, highlighted above. 
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: Viggo on February 26, 2018, 02:33:03 AM
Hey! I was right, you CAN lock the position and it will automatically turn when moving the camera ;)

https://youtu.be/lPb9uWM83bU (https://youtu.be/lPb9uWM83bU)
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: hne on February 26, 2018, 04:28:00 AM
Crystal ball reading points go to Viggo and neuroanatomist.

I like the idea of flash angle being constant while camera moves. Even better if they had mechanics that allowed faster/continuous rotation of the flash head.
Title: Re: Updated: Canon Speedlite 470EX-AI Additional Images & Information
Post by: slclick on March 01, 2018, 05:34:05 PM
No support for 5D3. That's one way to get those stubborn 5D3 holdouts to upgrade.