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Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: danski0224 on February 19, 2012, 12:33:30 PM

Title: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: danski0224 on February 19, 2012, 12:33:30 PM
Over in the lens suggestions for Grand Canyon thread, I was reminded about how an ultra wide angle lens can make things seem really far away.

I notice this effect using the 16-35 II at 16. While I can get the subject into the frame, the results are not always what I want.

I have tried handheld stitching and panoramas, and for close work the results have been bad.

I did a small stitched panorama (handheld) when I went to the Grand Canyon as a whim (panorama, not the trip), and it turned out nice once it was put together by Photoshop. I wish I had done that a couple of times.

If I wanted to stitch together an interior shot of a room and not try to fit it all in using a (ultra) wide angle lens, what is the best approach for someone that isn't well versed in Photoshop?
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: AJ on February 19, 2012, 01:16:16 PM
I have tried handheld stitching and panoramas, and for close work the results have been bad.

This is due to parallax.  You need a panoramic tripod head that swivels your lens around the nodal point.
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: DBCdp on February 19, 2012, 01:34:25 PM
The best description I've found is at http://reallyrightstuff.com/WebsiteInfo.aspx?fc=108 (http://reallyrightstuff.com/WebsiteInfo.aspx?fc=108) from the people that make the equipment to get it right. When done properly, even interior panoramas are outstanding!
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: cfargo on February 19, 2012, 01:36:25 PM
You want to make sure your rotation/panning is centered on the lenses, nodal point.
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: DBCdp on February 19, 2012, 01:43:58 PM
By the way, the picture above is 4 Portrait Orientation shots from a 5DMkII and 17-40 lens.
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: Jon Gilchrist on February 19, 2012, 01:49:07 PM
Panoramic tripod head and stitching software.  I use a Nodal Ninja 5 (since discontinued) and Autopano Giga.  Not affiliated with either company.  Links: www.nodalninja.com (http://www.nodalninja.com) and www.kolor.com (http://www.kolor.com).
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: danski0224 on February 19, 2012, 01:59:49 PM
Interesting.

Looks like some pricey accessories... and why it didn't work very well with just a plain tripod.
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: woollybear on February 19, 2012, 02:41:37 PM
Here is an exterior shot.  Go easy on me, I'm a rookie at photography.  There are mistakes in the stitching if you know where to look!!  Didn't really do much to the picture except stitch it together.

I found interior shots difficult, even with a correct nodal point, because I was too close to the subject.  I was shooting a built in wall cabinet (it was one I built, my real job) and I think the problem was that the center of the cabinet was 15 feet away and the corner was 20 to 25 feet away.  I couldn't move backwards any further because there was a wall in back of me.  If that description makes sense...
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: danski0224 on February 19, 2012, 02:46:01 PM
By the way, the picture above is 4 Portrait Orientation shots from a 5DMkII and 17-40 lens.

That shot looks pretty darn good.

How much work was done in processing?

Do you use the RSS products?
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: danski0224 on February 19, 2012, 02:47:48 PM
Here is an exterior shot.  Go easy on me, I'm a rookie at photography.  There are mistakes in the stitching if you know where to look!!  Didn't really do much to the picture except stitch it together.

I found interior shots difficult, even with a correct nodal point, because I was too close to the subject.  I was shooting a built in wall cabinet (it was one I built, my real job) and I think the problem was that the center of the cabinet was 15 feet away and the corner was 20 to 25 feet away.  I couldn't move backwards any further because there was a wall in back of me.  If that description makes sense...

It looks good from here.

Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: aznstuart on February 19, 2012, 02:53:18 PM
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,295.255.html (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,295.255.html)

Here are some that I posted in the landscape thread (not sure why I did that now in hindsight...).
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: dr croubie on February 19, 2012, 04:03:23 PM
For the best way to do indoor shots, get a FF sensor and a 14mm f/2.8L (or a nikon 12-24 zoom on adapter).

For stitching, the options are:
Shift-lens - Keep the lens still, and move the camera around the lens to take shots. i haven't worked out it out directly, but I think a TS-E 17 will stitch a bigger image than a 14mm lens. Either get a nodal rail with mm-marks, shift the camera 12mm each way when you take photos, or clamp the lens in place with a tripod ring and move the camera around. Like one of These (http://hartblei.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm) (alternatively, just get the hartblei Hcam and an 80mp-back while your'e there).

Next best is the swing-panorama, which is what I do. Get a tripod ring for your lens, so that you can slide the lens back and forward along its axis, take a *lot* of test shots to find the 'nodal point' (usually somewhere just behind the front element of the lens, the closer the objects in your shot the more accurate you have to be).
And/Or get an L-bracket and a nodal-rail to clamp the camera on and slide back and forth.
(Read this (http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/techtutorials/technotes/nodalptalign-tn.html)).

My setup which i bought a month ago consists of: Ballhead (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/658802-REG/Arca_Swiss_801211_Monoball_P0_with_Panning.html) (specially upside-down for making perfectly horizontal panoramae), Clamp (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/555493-REG/Kirk_QRC_3_0_QRC_3_Quick_Release_Clamp.html), L-Bracket (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/662069-REG/Kirk_BL_7D.html), Long plate (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/555288-REG/Kirk_LRP_1_LRP_1_Long_Rail_Quick.html) (well, I don't have that one, I've got a sunwayfoto one where the clamp doesn't move, good for front-back shifting for nodal points only, that kirk lrp-1 you can also use for shift-panoramae above). And a good tripod too.
It ain't cheap, but that's the prices unfortunately. I splurged as a present to myself for getting a job, if i didn't get a job i probably would have hacked something in the back shed.
That will do you for single-row panoramae (because of the L-bracket you can set the camera in 'portrait' orientation, get a bigger field of view).

Or for totally nuts 360*360 panoramae you'll need multi-row, then you have to have a gimball-type head and the lens has to rotate about its nodal point in 2 axes instead. Try some of these for size:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/662498-REG/Novoflex_VR_6_8_Panorama_VE_System_6_8.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/662498-REG/Novoflex_VR_6_8_Panorama_VE_System_6_8.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/689699-REG/Giga_Pan_EPIC_PRO_EPIC_Pro_Robotic_Camera.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/689699-REG/Giga_Pan_EPIC_PRO_EPIC_Pro_Robotic_Camera.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/830844-REG/Jobu_Design_PGH_KM1_Manfrotto_Compatible_Panoramic_Gimbal_Head.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/830844-REG/Jobu_Design_PGH_KM1_Manfrotto_Compatible_Panoramic_Gimbal_Head.html)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/293646-REG/Manfrotto_303SPH_303SPH_QTVR_Spherical_Panoramic.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/293646-REG/Manfrotto_303SPH_303SPH_QTVR_Spherical_Panoramic.html)

Anyway, for software, I use Hugin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugin_%28software%29) on linux, apparently it works on Win and Mac too. It takes some getting used to, sometimes it just craps itself, but after a few hundred i've found its quirks (like auto vignetting and barrel correction sometimes fails), and it's not so bad to use. (just don't bother with its HDR-Pano-Merger, it boosts the dark-frames too much and the whole thing goes noisy).

Good Luck
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: dr croubie on February 19, 2012, 04:29:40 PM
Alternatively, for the swing-panoramae, when I first started out I just had a Samyang 35/1.4, I got a $10 tripod ring off ebay in china (the one that fits the 100L macro also fits the samyang), when I mounted that with the foot pointing forward, the hole in the foot was pretty damn close to the nodal-point of the lens, so it rotated around just fine on a cheapo ballhead and gorillapod.
Not very stable though, i'd definitely recommend getting a real tripod.

Also, the tripod I've got is the Vanguard 283CT (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/828695-REG/Vanguard_ALTA_PRO_283CT_Alta_Pro_283CT_3_Section.html), the centre column comes out and tilts at any angle, if I wanted to I could tilt the column back right into the corner of the room to get as wide as humanly possible (without drilling a hole in the wall...)
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: danski0224 on February 19, 2012, 04:30:43 PM
Wow. Lots of stuff here.

Looks like some really specialized stuff is needed to pull it off correctly... plus the talent to use it.

What about using one of the TS lenses and shifting? I realize you may only get 2 frames to stitch together without moving the camera.
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: DBCdp on February 19, 2012, 04:35:31 PM
Yes Danski, I do use RRS but not the panorama line of accessories. Want to, but can't justify it yet. I first got the flash bracket kit for shooting weddings. Of course I use their L brackets on my camera's so they clip into the ballhead, I use a BH-40 on a Slik CF tripod that I got for $60 on ebay...one bottom leg tightening mechanism had the epoxy broken, so I sanded it down and reapplied epoxy to get a nice Carbon Fiber tripod for $60. Used left over epoxy from a sledgehammer handle if you can believe it! lol

Anyway, I use the rail that the flash bracket mounts on to get the nodal point. I don't take a bunch of pictures, just look at live view while rotating or swiveling the camera on the mount to check for parallax....line up two vertical objects, one relatively near the other at some distance (a fence post and a telephone pole for example) slide the camera back until the two stay in relation to each other and there it is. You can then mark the rail as to the lens and focal length to make it easy to go right back to that point next time.

I use Photoshop CS5 to stitch the pictures together in an automated fashion, no work on my part. I hear CS4 is as good or maybe better in that regard.
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: woollybear on February 19, 2012, 05:48:11 PM
Here is another picture.  It was taken in Vermont.  Handheld, no nodal point, no tripod.  Its 8 photos stitched together 4 across the top and 4 across the bottom.  I was maybe 100 feet away.  I know I should have a wide angle lens, but I don't...yet.  So the only way to fit all in was to take a flier on handheld.

For reference, the sunrise picture was taken with an accurate nodal point, tripod and ballhead leveled (I guess as close as I could, the horizon is hilly but it looks like it might go down and to the right).

Anyway, no processing done on the first one, but I did on this one.  You think it is sharpened a little too much?
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: AUGS on February 19, 2012, 07:19:14 PM
As has already been said, for close up work or scenes with both distant and close objects, you will get parallax errors and "ghosting" of the objects if you don't use a panoramic head and the correct nodal point.  So indoor scenarios more-or-less demand a proper setup.  I use the RRS (Really Right Stuff) head and find it awesome to use.

But just as important to note, even if you use the best possible setup and have all the nodal points for your body and lens combinations, to get optimal results you must use fully manual setup in the camera - manual focus, manual white balance, and manual setting (not Av or Tv).  Prepare the settings off the part of the image you want perfectly exposed (the rest will generally be very close, but may be slightly over- or under-exposed in a stand-alone image) and you will have far less post-processing issues, and the quality of the final image will be improved.  If you don't do this, you can end up with light banding and areas of softness in the overlapping regions.

If I'm doing landscapes with only distant objects, I will occasionally do hand-held panoramas as the "errors" are far less obvious, but I still use a fully manual setup in the camera.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: briansquibb on February 20, 2012, 12:01:32 AM
As has already been said, for close up work or scenes with both distant and close objects, you will get parallax errors and "ghosting" of the objects if you don't use a panoramic head and the correct nodal point.  So indoor scenarios more-or-less demand a proper setup.  I use the RRS (Really Right Stuff) head and find it awesome to use.

But just as important to note, even if you use the best possible setup and have all the nodal points for your body and lens combinations, to get optimal results you must use fully manual setup in the camera - manual focus, manual white balance, and manual setting (not Av or Tv).  Prepare the settings off the part of the image you want perfectly exposed (the rest will generally be very close, but may be slightly over- or under-exposed in a stand-alone image) and you will have far less post-processing issues, and the quality of the final image will be improved.  If you don't do this, you can end up with light banding and areas of softness in the overlapping regions.

If I'm doing landscapes with only distant objects, I will occasionally do hand-held panoramas as the "errors" are far less obvious, but I still use a fully manual setup in the camera.

Hope this helps.

Stitching is a good way to get those extra mps into a landscape. I have to laugh when I hear that a high mps body is the only way. So shoot in portrait and stitch. Far more detail in a 5x 5DII than a single D800 image
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: wickidwombat on February 20, 2012, 12:07:02 AM
Adobe CS5 stitching is remarkably good,

here is a good tutorial
http://www.photoshopessentials.com/photo-effects/panorama/ (http://www.photoshopessentials.com/photo-effects/panorama/)
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: AUGS on February 20, 2012, 02:01:08 AM
As has already been said, for close up work or scenes with both distant and close objects, you will get parallax errors and "ghosting" of the objects if you don't use a panoramic head and the correct nodal point.  So indoor scenarios more-or-less demand a proper setup.  I use the RRS (Really Right Stuff) head and find it awesome to use.

But just as important to note, even if you use the best possible setup and have all the nodal points for your body and lens combinations, to get optimal results you must use fully manual setup in the camera - manual focus, manual white balance, and manual setting (not Av or Tv).  Prepare the settings off the part of the image you want perfectly exposed (the rest will generally be very close, but may be slightly over- or under-exposed in a stand-alone image) and you will have far less post-processing issues, and the quality of the final image will be improved.  If you don't do this, you can end up with light banding and areas of softness in the overlapping regions.

If I'm doing landscapes with only distant objects, I will occasionally do hand-held panoramas as the "errors" are far less obvious, but I still use a fully manual setup in the camera.

Hope this helps.

Stitching is a good way to get those extra mps into a landscape. I have to laugh when I hear that a high mps body is the only way. So shoot in portrait and stitch. Far more detail in a 5x 5DII than a single D800 image

Too true.  I am a landscape photographer and stitching portrait images is my preferred method when I require/desire "large" prints (upward of 36" - I have a few at 4500x13500=60.75mpix).  By stitching and cropping, you can actually get a better resolved image as well as you are predominantly using the centre area of the lens (based on MTF charts).
The only time this falls over is when you have moving elements in the image, such as seascapes which I also do quite a bit, where I wish I had a big mpix sensor for a one-shot and then cropped panoramic image.  Then again, any softness in the corners/edges may change my mind.
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: dr croubie on February 20, 2012, 02:11:31 AM
The only time this falls over is when you have moving elements in the image, such as seascapes which I also do quite a bit, where I wish I had a big mpix sensor for a one-shot and then cropped panoramic image.  Then again, any softness in the corners/edges may change my mind.

After a few seascapes with moving waves spoiling the image where they lined up, I gave up and bought an ND400. But then I haven't been down to the beach lately to try it (seeing as I've moved house from 5km-from-the-beach to nowhere-near-the-beach).
Title: Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots
Post by: danski0224 on February 20, 2012, 08:06:29 AM
Here is another picture.  It was taken in Vermont.  Handheld, no nodal point, no tripod.  Its 8 photos stitched together 4 across the top and 4 across the bottom.  I was maybe 100 feet away.  I know I should have a wide angle lens, but I don't...yet.  So the only way to fit all in was to take a flier on handheld.

For reference, the sunrise picture was taken with an accurate nodal point, tripod and ballhead leveled (I guess as close as I could, the horizon is hilly but it looks like it might go down and to the right).

Anyway, no processing done on the first one, but I did on this one.  You think it is sharpened a little too much?

It is a nice picture. My monitor is not calibrated, but it does look "artificial", for lack of a better term. Maybe that is from the sharpening.

If I am far enough away, some of my panoramic stitching comes out OK.

My HTC Amaze phone has a pretty cool panoramic mode. No stitching, per se. Just aim and pan slowly.
Title: Links on No Parallax Points etc. (Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots)
Post by: 1DSLR on February 28, 2012, 05:48:53 PM
Agree on manual exposure so all images are same and locating at the nodal point (also apparently more properly termed the no parallax point or entrance pupil).

Here is a wiki of No Parallax Points for a number of lens and camera combinations.:
http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database (http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database)

You can also make your own bracket for single row or even multirow panoramas.  Single row is fairly easy with some items from your local hardware store and a low-cost focusing rail from Ebay.  Scroll down this page to the self-made heads and follow the links:
http://wiki.panotools.org/Heads (http://wiki.panotools.org/Heads)
If interested, I'll post photos of my single row bracket.
Title: Re: Links on No Parallax Points etc. (Re: Panoramas or Stitching + Interior Shots)
Post by: dr croubie on February 29, 2012, 08:44:49 PM
Here is a wiki of No Parallax Points for a number of lens and camera combinations.:
http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database (http://wiki.panotools.org/Entrance_Pupil_Database)

Looks like a good list, I'll have to add in my EFs 15-85 and Samyang 35 when I get a chance.

Meanwhile, here's pics of my kit:
Vanguard Alta Pro 283CT (or any good tripod)

Arca-Swiss Monoball P0 (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/658802-REG/Arca_Swiss_801211_Monoball_P0_with_Panning.html) (the version without the clamp, the one that comes with a clamp is not 'arca-swiss compatible' as you know it), with 3" Kirk clamp instead. It's specifically upside-down, so your panoramae are always perfectly in line (they don't have to be level if you don't want), solid as a rock, works like a dream, and worth every one of the $230 I paid.

First shot has my EF-s 15-85 on 7D, Kirk L-bracket to a Sunwayfoto DMP200L slider.
Second shot has my Samyang 35/1.4 on a cheap chinese ebay tripod ring for the 100L macro (fits perfectly), on a Wimberly P10 plate.