canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: Zhanger on April 03, 2012, 12:44:40 AM

Title: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Zhanger on April 03, 2012, 12:44:40 AM
http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/03/canon-eos-60da-dslr-astronomy-night-shooting-price-release-date/ (http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/03/canon-eos-60da-dslr-astronomy-night-shooting-price-release-date/)

Is it just me or did this just totally blindside us?
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: JerryKnight on April 03, 2012, 12:53:32 AM
Ho. Ly. Crap.


I do some astrophotography, and this thing sounds incredible. It's seems to be more of an adjustment to the 60D than the 20DA was compared to the 20D.

I've found from my dabbling that high-ISO really isn't that useful. It's more about a stable, star-tracking base (Astrotrac in my case) and a medium-to-low ISO with long exposures.

This is seriously interesting. Too bad I already got the 5D3 and have had an IR modified Rebel XSi, or it would be very tempting.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Cali_PH on April 03, 2012, 12:55:27 AM
http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/03/canon-eos-60da-dslr-astronomy-night-shooting-price-release-date/ (http://www.engadget.com/2012/04/03/canon-eos-60da-dslr-astronomy-night-shooting-price-release-date/)

Is it just me or did this just totally blindside us?

I was coming to post the same thing!  Except I just got an ad from Adorama...probably like most of you others ;)
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: woollybear on April 03, 2012, 01:03:32 AM
Is this a tweak or a major upgrade?

Is a "low-noise sensor with heightened hydrogen-alpha sensitivity" new, or modified?
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Tijn on April 03, 2012, 01:05:31 AM
Why did they keep the flash? Oh wait, I get it - for the dark side of the moon of course! Lol :-D
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: animearth on April 03, 2012, 01:05:51 AM
The 60DA came totally from the left field.  No hype, no precursory hints, just wham, here it is!  Then again, I suppose it's for a niche enough demographic that the general public won't care much about it.

I am rather curious when it said "Enhanced noise reduction on the EOS 60Da sensor offers photographers the ability to experiment with the wide array of ISO settings"... does that mean they tweaked the sensor so it has better sensitivity than a 60D or is that just the same old sensor with different IR glass/microlens filters and software?
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: wickidwombat on April 03, 2012, 01:41:09 AM
The 60DA came totally from the left field.  No hype, no precursory hints, just wham, here it is!  Then again, I suppose it's for a niche enough demographic that the general public won't care much about it.

I am rather curious when it said "Enhanced noise reduction on the EOS 60Da sensor offers photographers the ability to experiment with the wide array of ISO settings"... does that mean they tweaked the sensor so it has better sensitivity than a 60D or is that just the same old sensor with different IR glass/microlens filters and software?
yes this is an intersting development because if they have sorted out the low and high iso noise of that sensor it could be an interesting sign of things to come from other high density sensors
Title: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Canon Rumors on April 03, 2012, 01:55:03 AM

NEW CANON EOS 60Da DSLR CAMERA FOR ASTRONOMY ENTHUSIASTS CAPTURES THE TRUE COLORS OF THE COSMOS

LAKE SUCCESS, N.Y., April 3, 2012 – Canon U.S.A., Inc., a leader in digital imaging solutions, today introduced the EOS 60Da Digital SLR Camera, a long-awaited successor to the EOS 20Da that is optimized for astrophotography. This DSLR caters to astronomers and hobbyists who enjoy capturing the beauty of the night sky by offering a modified infrared filter and a low-noise sensor with heightened hydrogen-alpha sensitivity. These modifications allow the camera to capture magnificent photographs of “red hydrogen emission” nebulae and other cosmic phenomena.


“The EOS 60Da is a testament to the constant desire to meet the needs of every customer, including those in specialized fields,” said Yuichi Ishizuka, executive vice president and general manager, Imaging Technologies & Communications Group, Canon U.S.A., “This new camera enables an accurate depiction of a part of our solar system which is hard to achieve with conventional cameras but should be enjoyed and celebrated.”


The Canon EOS 60Da camera packs a powerful 18-megapixel CMOS sensor (APS-C) that produces sharp and high-contrast images of astronomical objects, a major enhancement over the EOS 20Da model’s 8.2-megapixel sensor. The improved infrared-blocking filter is a modification suited specifically toward astronomy enthusiasts to achieve a hydrogen-alpha light sensitivity that is approximately three times higher than that of a normal Canon DSLR camera. This produces a 20-percent higher transmittance of Hydrogen Alpha line, or Hα wavelength, allowing astronomers to capture crisp, clear images of reddish, diffuse nebulae.


Enhanced Features

Crisp images of the stars and planets can be viewed on the EOS 60Da’s improved 3.0-inch Clear View LCD screen with 1,040,000 dots for detailed focusing. The flip-out Vari-angle screen allows photographers to adjust the screen for easy viewing without straining even while the camera is mounted to a telescope via a third-party T-ring adapter. Optimized for stargazing with friends or in an educational setting, astronomy enthusiasts can connect the camera to a TV with the provided AVC-DC400ST Stereo AV Video Cable and display the night sky on a TV monitor using the camera’s Live View mode. Moreover, the EOS 60Da’s Live View mode is equipped with a Silent Shooting feature that eliminates shutter-induced vibration for maximum camera stability when the camera is mounted to a telescope or super-telephoto EF lens.


Enhanced noise reduction on the EOS 60Da sensor offers photographers the ability to experiment with the wide array of ISO settings and increased ISO speeds up to 6400 expandable to 12800. Other features include an intelligent nine-point autofocus system, full manual controls, and RAW, JPEG, and RAW+JPEG image recording capabilities.


Accessories

The EOS 60Da helps capture the wonders of the night sky with its use of Canon’s award-winning EF and EF-S lenses along with other EOS accessories. Additionally, the EOS 60Da is packaged with Canon’s RA-E3 Remote Controller Adapter, providing the ability to connect a Canon Timer Remote Control such as the TC-80N3 (optional accessory). The TC-80N3 is ideal for controlling time exposures longer than 30 seconds as well as capturing a series of consecutive time exposures that can be composited during post-processing for improved image quality. This is especially useful when the camera body is connected to a telescope[i] or an EF super telephoto lens.


Canon has also included an AC adapter kit with the EOS 60Da, allowing the camera to be powered through an AC wall outlet or a battery-powered inverter, ideal for long exposure image or video capture at home or in the field.


Availability

As a specialized product, the EOS 60Da is only available to order from select authorized dealers. The estimated retail price is $1,499.00 and it is expected to be available this month.


Preorder from B&H & Adorama for $1499


cr


Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: YellowJersey on April 03, 2012, 02:15:31 AM
Wow, I certainly did not see that coming.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: lol on April 03, 2012, 02:59:08 AM
I want one! The price premium doesn't sound excessive over a regular 60D, if you look at 3rd party cost of modifying a standard body. Plus you don't have to worry about dust between filter and sensor and warranty too :)
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: wickidwombat on April 03, 2012, 03:01:15 AM
are these the same as a fully IR modified camera or somewhere in between?
you know the type for taking those cool mid day shots where all the trees and crass goes white
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: telephonic on April 03, 2012, 03:26:43 AM
Caught us by surprise, I believe. The way you missed this, Craig... I won't visit CR again. [100% lie, of course]  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: dr croubie on April 03, 2012, 03:29:45 AM
wow, better go back a few days in the news feed and stick a CR3 rumour on this...
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: epsiloneri on April 03, 2012, 03:32:36 AM
Quote from: Canon Press release
The improved infrared-blocking filter is a modification suited specifically toward astronomy enthusiasts to achieve a hydrogen-alpha light sensitivity that is approximately three times higher than that of a normal Canon DSLR camera. This produces a 20-percent higher transmittance of Hydrogen Alpha line, or Hα wavelength, allowing astronomers to capture crisp, clear images of reddish, diffuse nebulae.

Can somebody please make sense of this? Is it 3 times or 20% more sensitive?

My only guess is that they actually mean percentage points, so that the transmittance of normal Canon DSLRs would be 10%, and now it's 30%.

Anyway. Great news for astrophotographers. It would be nice if they also made available filters to turn the 60Da into a normal 60D.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: agierke on April 03, 2012, 03:35:14 AM
even though i am not into astrophotography i am very intrigued by this and what it implies.

canon seems to be making a push towards specializing their camera systems. the 5D mrk3, though highly anticipated by a wide range of genres, was essentially everything that event photographers have been asking for the past few years. the cross platform demographic that the mrk2 created left many disappointed in perceived shortcomings in the mrk 3. does this announcement not inspire confidence that canon will address the needs of the other genres with specialized cameras in the coming months?

the C300, the 5D mrk 3, the still mysterious C Dslr (4k?), and now this camera? thats a ton of product announced in a short period of time. my gut tells me they aren't done by a long shot. 
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: JerryKnight on April 03, 2012, 04:40:53 AM
Quote from: Canon Press release
The improved infrared-blocking filter is a modification suited specifically toward astronomy enthusiasts to achieve a hydrogen-alpha light sensitivity that is approximately three times higher than that of a normal Canon DSLR camera. This produces a 20-percent higher transmittance of Hydrogen Alpha line, or Hα wavelength, allowing astronomers to capture crisp, clear images of reddish, diffuse nebulae.

Can somebody please make sense of this? Is it 3 times or 20% more sensitive?

My only guess is that they actually mean percentage points, so that the transmittance of normal Canon DSLRs would be 10%, and now it's 30%.

Anyway. Great news for astrophotographers. It would be nice if they also made available filters to turn the 60Da into a normal 60D.

I think you're exactly right. This is why statistics in modern culture are annoying. ("30% more FREE!!!" etc.) Actual meaningful statistics (like the transmittance of a filter) are confused by marketspeak.

I agree that it would be nice to know what lens filter would get you back to a "stock" sensor, in terms of IR sensitivity.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: lonelywhitelights on April 03, 2012, 05:09:52 AM
This is amazing news =D the 20Da barely ever comes up for sale so I've never been able to get a hold of one and IR modifying one of my current bodies just isn't an option (I don't do enough astrophotography to justify the modification) but wow, honestly did not see this coming at all! the 60D isn't all that fabulous by most accounts but I'm sure the 60Da is a totally different machine and well worth a look at. the specs are pretty impressive - especially if it can perform well at low ISO for multiple long exposures and most importantly the price isn't bad at all! really surprised by Canon on this one! well done Canon =D
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: dr croubie on April 03, 2012, 05:16:37 AM
Wow, may this be the first product release on here that doesn't have anyone complaining?

Maybe because:
- There were no rumours, so no hopes to get up
- It beats the old product in every way
- It's such a specialised product that enthusiasts don't mind the cost, and the rest of us don't mind either because we're just not going to buy it anyway (or is this cost not so much more than a standard 60D that it's cheaper than modding a normal one anyway?)

And did this rebel-N3 connection adapter always exist, or did they just invent it? Good to know if I ever downgrade and want to keep using my TC80N3...
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Caps18 on April 03, 2012, 05:21:31 AM
I use a 50D that has been modified to remove the IR filter, but this is big news.

I have found that Digital Photo Professional can color correct by the Tune button in Tools and shifting towards blue.

Now, Canon should recommend a telescope for novices to use...
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: lonelywhitelights on April 03, 2012, 05:36:48 AM
I use a 50D that has been modified to remove the IR filter, but this is big news.

I have found that Digital Photo Professional can color correct by the Tune button in Tools and shifting towards blue.

Now, Canon should recommend a telescope for novices to use...

There are soooo many great telescopes for novice or beginners, you can get amazing products for under £/$1000 and even under £/$500 just have to have a shop around. And of course there are many many sites offering tutorials on how to get started and what kind of gear you need (not much once you have your telescope, though a motorized mount for the telescope is needed for multiple shot long exposures etc)

A good place to have a look is the Celestron website, the Celestron Nexstar range of scopes are really great and definitely affordable. The Nexstar 4SE captures wonderful images and is less than £500 (if you shop around for the best price)  http://www.celestron.com/astronomy/celestron-nexstar-4se.html (http://www.celestron.com/astronomy/celestron-nexstar-4se.html)
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: lonelywhitelights on April 03, 2012, 05:50:25 AM
Just noticed in the specs that this camera doesn't shoot video... that's actually quite a shock, I've been using video mode on my 7D to shoot little videos of Jupiter etc so it's a shame that a dedicated astrophoto camera isn't capable of shooting video... for the price I would think video capability is a just a given nowadays? leaving it out and still charging that much? sure it's IR capable now but that modification isn't as costly as putting video in... hmm...
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: iso79 on April 03, 2012, 06:18:23 AM
Just noticed in the specs that this camera doesn't shoot video... that's actually quite a shock, I've been using video mode on my 7D to shoot little videos of Jupiter etc so it's a shame that a dedicated astrophoto camera isn't capable of shooting video... for the price I would think video capability is a just a given nowadays? leaving it out and still charging that much? sure it's IR capable now but that modification isn't as costly as putting video in... hmm...

I like this move. Maybe Canon is returning to focus on making great still cameras for photographers who don't need video recording.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: daveswan on April 03, 2012, 07:28:01 AM
This is a very interesting cam, but what exactly is the band-pass of the IR blocking filter? Ideally it should extend all the way to the SII line or a bit beyond with a sharp cut-off. Baader and Astronomik do replacement filters like this.

As for no video, I'm in two minds about this, as ideally one would use a dedicated USB or Firewire cam and Registax for planetary imaging. I don't do any astrophotog, myself *yet* partly due to budget crashes, but also the LP where I am in London is pretty dreadfull, seeing down to even mag 4.5 is a spectacularly good night  >:(
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Astro on April 03, 2012, 07:30:18 AM
Is it just me or did this just totally blindside us?

that is the problem with camera rumor sites.... the rumors are 90% useless made up stuff.

these camera makers are reayll tight-lipped bunch of peoples.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: briansquibb on April 03, 2012, 07:45:49 AM
Caught us by surprise, I believe. The way you missed this, Craig... I won't visit CR again. [100% lie, of course]  ;D

Going to have to switch to Nikon Rmours now  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: lol on April 03, 2012, 08:03:59 AM
are these the same as a fully IR modified camera or somewhere in between?
you know the type for taking those cool mid day shots where all the trees and crass goes white
Nope. This camera still blocks IR, but the filter is a different one which passes more deep visible red which is desired for astronomical use.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: expo01 on April 03, 2012, 08:37:17 AM
Quote
- There were no rumours, so no hopes to get up
I think this is the case.
Quote
- It beats the old product in every way
That remains to be seen. The 20Da were hand selected sensors, which worked incredibly well.
Quote
- It's such a specialised product that enthusiasts don't mind the cost
The 60Da is ALOT cheaper than the 20Da was.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: IWLP on April 03, 2012, 09:09:50 AM
Just noticed in the specs that this camera doesn't shoot video... that's actually quite a shock, I've been using video mode on my 7D to shoot little videos of Jupiter etc so it's a shame that a dedicated astrophoto camera isn't capable of shooting video... for the price I would think video capability is a just a given nowadays? leaving it out and still charging that much? sure it's IR capable now but that modification isn't as costly as putting video in... hmm...

Canon's own specs disagree (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_60da#Specifications), as does the B&H preorder page (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/853491-REG/Canon_6596B002_EOS_60Da_DSLR_Camera.html/kbid/3296). And then there's this line in the presser:

"Canon has also included an AC adapter kit with the EOS 60Da, allowing the camera to be powered through an AC wall outlet or a battery-powered inverter, ideal for long exposure image or video capture at home or in the field." (emphasis added)

So it appears it does record video.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: emag on April 03, 2012, 09:35:56 AM
With a UV/IR blocking Clip Filter and manual white balance it will be fine for standard photography.  I'm curious if it has the 'region-of-interest' video feature found in the T2i or the T3i's zoom feature, both of which are useful for planetary work.  I use a modified 40D for astro, but would love to be able to use one camera for both deep field and planetary work.  Currently I remove the 40D and use a Philipps SPC900NC for planets.  I've been waiting on an announcement regarding the fabled T4i, this one caught me by surprise.  I'll have to compare the cost/return of the 60Da vs. T3i w/modification vs. T4i with modification.   Digic5 would have been nice.  That said, the 60Da is definitely on my short list.    Now to get back to work before my boss walks by!  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Marsu42 on April 03, 2012, 09:58:27 AM
Moreover, the EOS 60Da’s Live View mode is equipped with a Silent Shooting feature that eliminates shutter-induced vibration for maximum camera stability when the camera is mounted to a telescope or super-telephoto EF lens.

Enhanced noise reduction on the EOS 60Da sensor offers photographers the ability to experiment with the wide array of ISO settings and increased ISO speeds up to 6400 expandable to 12800.

I don't get the enhancement - enhancement over the 60d or 20da? If this silent shooting mode the same one as on the vanilla 60d it's not exactly silent say in comparison to a Nikon d7000. And I can do stronger "enhanced noise reduction" on raw images in postprocessing, too - what could an in-camera version improve, or is this esp. about bulb nr?
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: awinphoto on April 03, 2012, 10:32:58 AM
Does this mean no 70D or 7d2 any time soon?   :o Lol.  I dont shoot much astorphotography, so dont jump all over me, i'm genuinely interested...  What other differences are there to the 60Da are there from the 60D other than the change to the infra-red filter?  Also what real world differences would the difference be between the two, especially if one was to shoot the two cameras seemingly side by side (in theory since no one has the new camera yet)...  Just curious. 
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Axilrod on April 03, 2012, 10:39:28 AM
Wow this is the first thing I've seen Canon release that there has been no mention of on this site.  Looks like I'll be adding a new body sooner than I thought.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 03, 2012, 10:54:05 AM
Hrm... I am not quite sure I see the point in this body.....

Ok, I admit I am still pretty new to astrophotography so maybe someone more experienced can correct me, but I see a couple problems here.

(1) The built in filter really limits what you can do.  You can always slap different filters on the front to change what wavelengths you see, but this body locks you into one particular type of shot.
(2) The camera still includes a CFA, so the dyes in that are going to screw with whatever you see anyway.
(3) While the A/C adapter helps (wow astro photography can suck batteries dry), they are not including a cooling kit of any type, which will limit its usefulness

I actually have a bad feeling about this.  Half baked products like this can serve as marketing examples of 'see, there is no market for this, we tried and it didn't work!'.  Kinda reminds me of, a few decades ago, various game companies trying to develop games for girls.. they would produce 1 or 2 half assed titles, point to them saying 'these games we made for girls did not sell well, see, there is no market after all!'.. so the product became a self fulfilling prophecy.

So while I applaud Canon for at least trying to reach out to the niche... I suspect that it will not go all that well (unless those 'sensor enhancements' are something significant) and it will be held up as an internal example of why they shouldn't develop niche products.. which decreases the chances of them ever releasing more interesting variants of their bodies... (ok, I admit, that is still me dreaming of Canon releasing an official B&W body, which would rock for astrophotography)
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: preppyak on April 03, 2012, 11:01:48 AM
So while I applaud Canon for at least trying to reach out to the niche... I suspect that it will not go all that well (unless those 'sensor enhancements' are something significant) and it will be held up as an internal example of why they shouldn't develop niche products.. which decreases the chances of them ever releasing more interesting variants of their bodies... (ok, I admit, that is still me dreaming of Canon releasing an official B&W body, which would rock for astrophotography)
It's not like they have never done this before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_20D#EOS_20Da (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EOS_20D#EOS_20Da)

My guess is they left elements of the 60D in so it could be theoretically used as a regular camera and an astro camera...expanding the market a bit, but, only time will tell for that.  Since they discontinued the 20Da pretty quickly, I'd say if this one doesn't sell well, then they'll probably avoid that niche.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 03, 2012, 11:28:11 AM
My guess is they left elements of the 60D in so it could be theoretically used as a regular camera and an astro camera...expanding the market a bit, but, only time will tell for that.  Since they discontinued the 20Da pretty quickly, I'd say if this one doesn't sell well, then they'll probably avoid that niche.

*nod* I was actually thinking of the 20Da and how it became an example of 'see, there is no market for this'.

Sad thing is, if Canon actually produced an astro DSLR and stuck with it, they could easily crush the rest of the market.  Dedicated astro cameras tend to be overpriced and under powered, a lot of people just use converted DSLRs and only go dedicated if they want to play with monochrome+filters, which is a space DSLRs have completely left at this point (grrrr).
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: donkom on April 03, 2012, 12:04:21 PM
Lifepixel offers hydrogen alpha conversion of DSLRs, I wonder if a modified 60D from them will be identical as a 60Da from Canon? http://shop.lifepixel.com/4-Convert-your-digital-camera-to-astrophotography-Hydrogen-Alpha-c16/ (http://shop.lifepixel.com/4-Convert-your-digital-camera-to-astrophotography-Hydrogen-Alpha-c16/)

Beyond that, Canon releases special camera versions every so often, like last year with the 7D SV - barcode scanning capabilities and modified firmware to meet the mass portrait industry. Not sure if they sold any, though.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Marsu42 on April 03, 2012, 12:07:14 PM
Sad thing is, if Canon actually produced an astro DSLR and stuck with it, they could easily crush the rest of the market.

Maybe they are doing just that with the 60da? If you forget about the marketing hype, this seems like a regular 60d with customized firmware and missing ir filter - so leaving out something while increasing the price seems pretty smart and Canon-like to me :-p ... and since it's so near the 60d it should be pretty easy to produce, though maybe few dealers will have it in stock.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 03, 2012, 12:14:08 PM
Maybe they are doing just that with the 60da? If you forget about the marketing hype, this seems like a regular 60d with customized firmware and missing ir filter - so leaving out something while increasing the price seems pretty smart and Canon-like to me :-p ... and since it's so near the 60d it should be pretty easy to produce, though maybe few dealers will have it in stock.

Meh, this might make a dent, but I would not call it market-crushing.  A body like this is not going to take on the dedicated monochrome astrophotography cameras, it will not even take on the colour ones since you are stuck with hydrogen-alpha.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: IronMike on April 03, 2012, 12:30:59 PM
Moreover, the EOS 60Da’s Live View mode is equipped with a Silent Shooting feature that eliminates shutter-induced vibration for maximum camera stability when the camera is mounted to a telescope or super-telephoto EF lens.

Enhanced noise reduction on the EOS 60Da sensor offers photographers the ability to experiment with the wide array of ISO settings and increased ISO speeds up to 6400 expandable to 12800.

I don't get the enhancement - enhancement over the 60d or 20da? If this silent shooting mode the same one as on the vanilla 60d it's not exactly silent say in comparison to a Nikon d7000.

Actually, this probably refers to the electronic first curtain that many canon cameras use when shooting in "Live View" mode. It's not necessarily any quieter, but it drastically reduces the vibration when taking a shot and is ideal for use at extreme magnifications (like in microscopy or astrophotography)

Here is a link:

http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html (http://krebsmicro.com/Canon_EFSC/index.html)

(I'm not affiliated with this link in any way, but I do take photo's through microscopes...)

Mike
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: justsomedude on April 03, 2012, 01:12:06 PM
Ok, I admit I am still pretty new to astrophotography so maybe someone more experienced can correct me, but I see a couple problems here.

(1) The built in filter really limits what you can do.  You can always slap different filters on the front to change what wavelengths you see, but this body locks you into one particular type of shot.

I don't think you're understanding the "built in filter" and what it does.  Actually, ALL dSLRs have an IR filter to produce "normal" looking skin tones.  Without an IR filter, you would get very strange looking photos of people (and many subjects for that matter).  Based on my interpretation of the 60DA, it appears as if some type of IR filter still exists, it just has been severely weakened.

But yes, you are correct, this certainly limits what you can shoot.  But then again - most astrophotographers looking for breathtaking night-sky photos are not concerned about shooting portraits the next day with the same body.  This is the reality of serious astrophotography.  See more below...

http://www.lifepixel.com/tutorials/infrared-diy-tutorials/canon-5d (http://www.lifepixel.com/tutorials/infrared-diy-tutorials/canon-5d)

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/cameras/canon_5d2_infra-red.html (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/cameras/canon_5d2_infra-red.html)

I actually have a bad feeling about this.  Half baked products like this can serve as marketing examples of 'see, there is no market for this, we tried and it didn't work!'.

I don't see this as half-baked at all.  I see this as Canon attempting to satisfy (and possibly expand) what is seen as a very niche/limited market.  Hence the quiet launch - this isn't supposed to be some mind-blowing dSLR that destroys the market.  It's meant for astro-photo dorks like me, who can appreciate the offering of a camera body with a sensor that has limited IR filtering. 

Heck, Canon is probably one of the only camera manufacturers that can afford to offer a specialty body like this.  I, personally, thank them for doing so.  I get a custom IR camera body without having to mod an old 5D2 and void the warranty.  A specialty astrophotography camera that still gets full warranty coverage?  That's a win-win to me.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: lol on April 03, 2012, 02:22:51 PM
The "safe" modification for astrophotography is replacing the standard IR cut filter with one with a much sharper response. The standard filter has a gradual response and attenuates deep reds strongly, where the H-alpha and SII wavelengths lie. The typical modification replaces this with one that has a much sharper cutoff, passing the deep reds, but still cutting IR. You generally don't want IR as it often has a different focus point for optics not corrected for it, which is practically almost every lens. That causes fuzzy stars and can increase the level of otherwise dark areas. I would assume Canon have gone this route, as you can use ordinary photographic lenses to image without additional filters. If you want an IR camera, this is not for you.

The other option of removing the IR block filter totally would not give good results unless you use additional filters.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 03, 2012, 02:51:13 PM

I don't think you're understanding the "built in filter" and what it does.  Actually, ALL dSLRs have an IR filter to produce "normal" looking skin tones.  Without an IR filter, you would get very strange looking photos of people (and many subjects for that matter).  Based on my interpretation of the 60DA, it appears as if some type of IR filter still exists, it just has been severely weakened.

I probably should have worded it better.  I was comparing the described cut filter to a modified DSLR with a piece of optical glass in place of the filter.  If you look through any telescope catalog there are a wide range of filters designed look at different things, and with a clear internal filter you can switch between them.  With this body you are stuck with a hydrogen alpha... so no 0III, no UV, no LRGB, no hydrogen beta.. etc.

So for such a niche product it strikes me as very limited.  Though as you point out, it keeps its warranty which is nice.

Still, what I would really like to see is someone like Canon produce a body that can compete with Orion's StarShoot... something that can work unteathered and have better resolution would be really sweet.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: aldvan on April 03, 2012, 03:39:46 PM
Too sad that I just sold my Meade LX200, due to light pollution from my point of obdservation... :-(
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: epsiloneri on April 03, 2012, 07:24:45 PM
Too sad that I just sold my Meade LX200, due to light pollution from my point of obdservation... :-(
A good way to fight light pollution is to use narrow-band nebula filters, such as H alpha. You'd be amazed the kind of astrophotography you can do from urban areas using OIII, H alpha and SII narrowband filters. A dedicated CCD is probably a better option for this purpose than the 60Da, though.

Edit: Thinking about it, they should have put the OIII, H alpha, and SII narrowband filters in a Bayer pattern on the 60Da, instead of the normal R, G, B.  :P
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: dr croubie on April 03, 2012, 07:56:51 PM
Just noticed in the specs that this camera doesn't shoot video... that's actually quite a shock, I've been using video mode on my 7D to shoot little videos of Jupiter etc s

Canon's own specs disagree (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_60da#Specifications), as does the B&H preorder page (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/853491-REG/Canon_6596B002_EOS_60Da_DSLR_Camera.html/kbid/3296). And then there's this line in the presser:

"Canon has also included an AC adapter kit with the EOS 60Da, allowing the camera to be powered through an AC wall outlet or a battery-powered inverter, ideal for long exposure image or video capture at home or in the field." (emphasis added)

So it appears it does record video.

Pardon my ignorance, for I only ever shoot things closer than 50km, and then only stills.
But (whether the 60Da has video or not), why would you want to? Don't planets and stars move really really slowly? What information can you obtain from 1920x1080 25fps that you can't get from 5184x3456 5fps? or even 1fps? (from what I know about video, the best shutter speed is half the frame rate, so shouldn't 0.5s exposures at 1fps using a TC80N3 make a nice video?)
Or is it just the hassle of taking hundreds/thousands of photos, downsizing them, and jamming them into a movie file?
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 03, 2012, 09:01:27 PM
Edit: Thinking about it, they should have put the OIII, H alpha, and SII narrowband filters in a Bayer pattern on the 60Da, instead of the normal R, G, B.  :P

That would be really cool ^_^

Though it once again returns me to my gripe that I really wish Canon would put out a monochrome body... then you could do a tri-shot with it.  I admit I probably would not gripe so much if dedicated CCDs were not about 1,000$/MP.... though even if they were cheaper you just can't beat the unteathered convenience of a DSLR..
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: kdsand on April 03, 2012, 09:26:20 PM
Well this release surprised me. :D
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 03, 2012, 11:58:02 PM
Pardon my ignorance, for I only ever shoot things closer than 50km, and then only stills.
But (whether the 60Da has video or not), why would you want to? Don't planets and stars move really really slowly? What information can you obtain from 1920x1080 25fps that you can't get from 5184x3456 5fps? or even 1fps? (from what I know about video, the best shutter speed is half the frame rate, so shouldn't 0.5s exposures at 1fps using a TC80N3 make a nice video?)
Or is it just the hassle of taking hundreds/thousands of photos, downsizing them, and jamming them into a movie file?

Well, they move faster then you might think, but I agree I am a little confused what utility video capture has in this situation since a timer probably does the job better.  I admit though I have not tried making videos that way though, only trails.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: ers811 on April 04, 2012, 01:02:28 AM

Pardon my ignorance, for I only ever shoot things closer than 50km, and then only stills.
But (whether the 60Da has video or not), why would you want to? Don't planets and stars move really really slowly? What information can you obtain from 1920x1080 25fps that you can't get from 5184x3456 5fps? or even 1fps? (from what I know about video, the best shutter speed is half the frame rate, so shouldn't 0.5s exposures at 1fps using a TC80N3 make a nice video?)
Or is it just the hassle of taking hundreds/thousands of photos, downsizing them, and jamming them into a movie file?

Actually a small portion of the frame at "just" 1000mm moves very quickly.

A lot planetary and moon imaging folks use video to get thousands of frames and stack them to eliminate noise and bring out details you won't get with only maybe a dozen exposures.  The benefit of the stacking only increases as the square root of the number of images, so the returns really start to diminish unless you get a ton of frames of data.

Search for "Registax" for some examples. It's free software that does some advanced stacking.  It's amazing what people have done with seemingly terrible seeing conditions.

And if you're camera has a crop/zoom video mode, you can get near the same resolution as you would crop out of full res pics anyway!
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Stuart on April 04, 2012, 04:53:18 AM
Prior rumours were for more canon SLR's this year - does this count as one of them? :-(
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Marsu42 on April 04, 2012, 06:23:48 AM
Prior rumours were for more canon SLR's this year - does this count as one of them? :-(

Since it's got another designation, I guess that's one of them. And apart from the 650d, there is space left in Canon's cycle so the 70d and 5d2 replacements might be slotted for the end of 2012, see http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html#canon_age_chart (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html#canon_age_chart)

But in the meantime, maybe they'll release a 60db? The "b" is for "bright daylight", so they left out the built-in flash and sell it over a considerable premium over the vanilla 60d :-p
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: epsiloneri on April 04, 2012, 09:19:05 AM
But (whether the 60Da has video or not), why would you want to? Don't planets and stars move really really slowly? What information can you obtain from 1920x1080 25fps that you can't get from 5184x3456 5fps?
The astronomical objects may be still, but the atmosphere is not. At high resolutions atmospheric effects are very noticeable and dynamic. By shooting hundreds or thousands of frames you can pick the ones that, quite randomly, are sharper than average, and by stacking only those you can get a sharper end-image than if you used a single longer exposure. In this way, amateurs today can produce images of the planets that rival or even outperform professional planetary images from only a few decades ago. The higher the fps (or rather, the shorter the exposure), the higher the likelihood that you will catch the atmosphere during a particularly still moment.

Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: epsiloneri on April 04, 2012, 09:26:44 AM
Though it once again returns me to my gripe that I really wish Canon would put out a monochrome body...
I agree, that would be ideal (one usually needs different exposure times for the different narrow-band filters anyway). In addition to astrophotographers, I bet there would be a market among the more artistic photographers who wouldn't mind going back to b/w, and also surveillance etc where they need the best sensitivities. With the colour sensors we are essentially throwing away two thirds of the photons.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: whwang on April 04, 2012, 11:22:18 AM
May I ask where did Canon say the camera can only be used for H alpha?
You won't get L, but you do get RGB.
You won't get UV, but you do get H alpha, SII, OIII, as long as you put the filters in front of the camera.



I don't think you're understanding the "built in filter" and what it does.  Actually, ALL dSLRs have an IR filter to produce "normal" looking skin tones.  Without an IR filter, you would get very strange looking photos of people (and many subjects for that matter).  Based on my interpretation of the 60DA, it appears as if some type of IR filter still exists, it just has been severely weakened.

I probably should have worded it better.  I was comparing the described cut filter to a modified DSLR with a piece of optical glass in place of the filter.  If you look through any telescope catalog there are a wide range of filters designed look at different things, and with a clear internal filter you can switch between them.  With this body you are stuck with a hydrogen alpha... so no 0III, no UV, no LRGB, no hydrogen beta.. etc.

So for such a niche product it strikes me as very limited.  Though as you point out, it keeps its warranty which is nice.

Still, what I would really like to see is someone like Canon produce a body that can compete with Orion's StarShoot... something that can work unteathered and have better resolution would be really sweet.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 04, 2012, 11:25:21 AM
I agree, that would be ideal (one usually needs different exposure times for the different narrow-band filters anyway). In addition to astrophotographers, I bet there would be a market among the more artistic photographers who wouldn't mind going back to b/w, and also surveillance etc where they need the best sensitivities. With the colour sensors we are essentially throwing away two thirds of the photons.

The conventional wisdom right now is that there is no market for B&W, and that colour images converted to B&W are 'good enough', though yes, there are quite a few people interested in using them for regular photography too.  Every time it comes up in a forum there is clamoring for 'sell this at a sane price and I would buy one!'.

It has created a serious self fulfilling prophecy since the only B&W cameras on the market right now are expensive digital backs by MegaVision, AWT, and PhaseOne... MegaVision and AWT because they make scientific cameras and PhaseOne because they listened to people wanting an 'artistic B&W camera'.. though at 40k it makes a poor market tester.

Apparently Leica is planning on releasing a B&W version of the M10, which might give people SOME marketing data.. but their cameras tend to be overpriced/underfeatured status symbols so they make poor examples of what a larger community would actually buy.. not that much better then the digital backs and machine vision ones actually.

Of course there is always Maxmax's converted monochrome Canon cameras, but you are stuck with 500D/550D as your only options there... and of course no Canon repair shop will touch them.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Lee Jay on April 04, 2012, 01:17:20 PM
I've found from my dabbling that high-ISO really isn't that useful. It's more about a stable, star-tracking base (Astrotrac in my case) and a medium-to-low ISO with long exposures.

A good resource for you:

http://www.samirkharusi.net/sub-exposures.html (http://www.samirkharusi.net/sub-exposures.html)
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Lee Jay on April 04, 2012, 01:20:03 PM
Now, Canon should recommend a telescope for novices to use...

I'm sure Canon can recommend the 800/5.6 as a small, short-focal-length refractor.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Lee Jay on April 04, 2012, 01:25:59 PM
For folks asking about "why video", here's why.  One frame on the right, over a thousand stacked on the left.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/Resolution%20demo.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: kdsand on April 04, 2012, 01:30:32 PM
Now, Canon should recommend a telescope for novices to use...

I'm sure Canon can recommend the 800/5.6 as a small, short-focal-length refractor.

 :o

I'll snatch one up!
 :D
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: lol on April 04, 2012, 02:01:04 PM
Though it once again returns me to my gripe that I really wish Canon would put out a monochrome body...
I agree, that would be ideal (one usually needs different exposure times for the different narrow-band filters anyway). In addition to astrophotographers, I bet there would be a market among the more artistic photographers who wouldn't mind going back to b/w, and also surveillance etc where they need the best sensitivities. With the colour sensors we are essentially throwing away two thirds of the photons.
Depends on the wavelength but it can be much worse than 2/3. For example, for the dominant H alpha, and less commonly used SII and NII you only get significant output from the 1 in 4 red filtered sites. OIII and H-beta are better sitting where green and blue sites are sensitive although I've not really found a good way to stick them together yet. I debated replacing H alpha with H beta for the increase in resolution, although that is offset by the lower levels of H beta. So I'd love a "mono" DSLR for this application.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: kdsand on April 04, 2012, 02:05:28 PM
I haven't done much with magic lantern yet but I would imagine there could be some interesting adaptations.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: DarkKnightNine on April 04, 2012, 03:43:35 PM
I've always been curious about this kind of photography; tried it a few times and failed miserably. Just what exactly do you focus on when shooting the stars? And what are optimal camera settings? Can anyone help me with this?
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: epsiloneri on April 04, 2012, 04:39:22 PM
I've always been curious about this kind of photography; tried it a few times and failed miserably. Just what exactly do you focus on when shooting the stars? And what are optimal camera settings? Can anyone help me with this?

You focus on infinity. Pick the brightest star/planet and zoom in with live view to focus manually. Or use any very distant light.

For shooting stars (a.k.a. meteors), you would ideally want large aperture (naturally) and wide focal length, on a tripod, also dark skies if you can find some. Your 5D3 or 1DX together with 16-35/2.8 @ 16/2.8 will be perfect. Then use the appropriate ISO that doesn't overexpose the sky in 10s, point your lens towards the sky after midnight and start shooting multiple 10s exposures until you get a meteor in the field. The difficult thing is that you don't know were or when they show up. With a remote, you can just let the camera run and do something else in the mean time. Alternatively, you can use bulb mode and stop an exposure early if you actually see a meteor during the exposure (to improve contrast).

On average you will find only one every 30 min, unfortunately, but it helps if you do it on a night with known high meteor activity (meteor 'shower') such as the trusty Perseids in August (then you might find up to 100 meteors/hour).

Edit: Oops, I read shooting stars, not shooting the stars  ;D Please disregard most of my previous text. For shooting stars you can use essentially the same settings, but you don't need to do multiple 10s exposures. Use as long exposure your night sky allows. If it's longer than a few 10s of seconds, you will start to see star trails (depends on focal length and direction).
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: ers811 on April 04, 2012, 05:20:20 PM
I've always been curious about this kind of photography; tried it a few times and failed miserably. Just what exactly do you focus on when shooting the stars? And what are optimal camera settings? Can anyone help me with this?

You focus on infinity-ish.... most lenses aren't in focus when you crank the focus ring all the way.  You'll have to back it off a little.

Just find a bright star and zoom 10x in live view.  Keep a steady hand/tripod and get the star as small as possible.

I don't usually use a lens with IS for wide field astro, but if you do, you can turn it on (just to focus).  Half press the button while you're focusing to make things easier on the eyes.  Don't forget to turn it off before you shoot.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 04, 2012, 05:50:51 PM
For folks asking about "why video", here's why.  One frame on the right, over a thousand stacked on the left.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/Resolution%20demo.jpg)

Hrm.  Cool example.
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: Neeneko on April 04, 2012, 05:51:57 PM
I'm sure Canon can recommend the 800/5.6 as a small, short-focal-length refractor.

Heh.  I actually do use my old 700mm Canon lens ^_^
Title: Re: Canon Announces EOS 60Da for Astrophotography
Post by: DarkKnightNine on April 06, 2012, 02:57:47 AM
I've always been curious about this kind of photography; tried it a few times and failed miserably. Just what exactly do you focus on when shooting the stars? And what are optimal camera settings? Can anyone help me with this?

You focus on infinity. Pick the brightest star/planet and zoom in with live view to focus manually. Or use any very distant light.

For shooting stars (a.k.a. meteors), you would ideally want large aperture (naturally) and wide focal length, on a tripod, also dark skies if you can find some. Your 5D3 or 1DX together with 16-35/2.8 @ 16/2.8 will be perfect. Then use the appropriate ISO that doesn't overexpose the sky in 10s, point your lens towards the sky after midnight and start shooting multiple 10s exposures until you get a meteor in the field. The difficult thing is that you don't know were or when they show up. With a remote, you can just let the camera run and do something else in the mean time. Alternatively, you can use bulb mode and stop an exposure early if you actually see a meteor during the exposure (to improve contrast).

On average you will find only one every 30 min, unfortunately, but it helps if you do it on a night with known high meteor activity (meteor 'shower') such as the trusty Perseids in August (then you might find up to 100 meteors/hour).

Edit: Oops, I read shooting stars, not shooting the stars  ;D Please disregard most of my previous text. For shooting stars you can use essentially the same settings, but you don't need to do multiple 10s exposures. Use as long exposure your night sky allows. If it's longer than a few 10s of seconds, you will start to see star trails (depends on focal length and direction).


Thanks. Really appreciate the advice.