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Gear Talk => Canon General => Topic started by: adamoe on May 10, 2012, 12:40:15 AM

Title: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: adamoe on May 10, 2012, 12:40:15 AM
Hi guys so i just shot a wedding the other weekend, Started 7am, finished 10pm, took 1600 pictures. i went through and Edited them all - threw away bad ones etc - gave the couple 726 nice edited pictures, then a folder with 100 favorites in 3 different color edits (black white , antique and bright n puffy)  - so i think im done .. great..

then the bride / groom calls and tells me they wanted / expected to sit down with me - and go over all the pictures with me and edit them all with me - and also - they want all the raw pictures (50gb) is this crazy?!? or am i crazy for thinking i dont want to sit down with them and Edit together?!?

I've attached just a few of the pics i took that i liked. mmm seems i can only post 4 pics here.. oh well

Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: nightbreath on May 10, 2012, 08:57:51 AM
Hi adamoe,

If I were on your place I'd say: "this is how I do my work, if you want it to be done in another way – find another person". I'd also export all the photos without editing and give them to do that the way they like.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Z on May 10, 2012, 09:39:24 AM
Ouch, this is tricky. With hindsight (not helpful, I know), it should be clear how things are going to be done well in advance. Do you have a written agreement/contract?
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: wockawocka on May 10, 2012, 09:43:51 AM
Ordinarily they don't do this however it seems a tactful way of saying they don't like their photos and to be honest, they're hideously over edited. Nothing wrong with the shots, positioning etc, just the editing.

Maybe it's a style that people like but if I handed the couple those photos I'd expect to be sued.

I'd offer to give them the RAW files. Highly unusual but so is your work.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: mws on May 10, 2012, 09:48:52 AM
Whats in your contract?
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Z on May 10, 2012, 09:58:00 AM
I think "hideously overedited" is a bit of an overstatement. I can see that you've gone for a soft, dreamy look, but the skin tones are just too flat and 'airbrushed'. It looks like you've just grabbed a colour dropper in photoshop and painted over their skin with a soft brush :/   I think if you fixed up the skin by easing off on the airbrushing, they'd be lovely shots.  At the moment they're just too plastic-looking for my tastes.

EDIT:

It's senseless being critical without putting forward some advice, so here all I've done is increase the midtone contrast (clarity/curves) to show you what I mean. Her face retains more shape and there isn't the same "glow" intensity. Obviously you'll be able to do better with the raw files.

(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/423/brideedit.jpg)
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: castillophotodesign on May 10, 2012, 10:01:21 AM
Ordinarily they don't do this however it seems a tactful way of saying they don't like their photos and to be honest, they're hideously over edited. Nothing wrong with the shots, positioning etc, just the editing.

Maybe it's a style that people like but if I handed the couple those photos I'd expect to be sued.

I'd offer to give them the RAW files. Highly unusual but so is your work.

a little harsh but i agree with you the photos seem over edited, but I am also guessing that the couple saw his work before they hired him.... so they must have liked his style.

Also it does seem a like a pain to edit all the photos with the couple, i think that would make me uncomfortable as well.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: wockawocka on May 10, 2012, 10:09:18 AM
Ok Ok, granted, Hideous was a poor choice of words.

50 weddings a year and I've never been asked by the couple to be present during editing. To me, this seems a polite way to say they're unhappy.

Rather than edit everything again give them the RAW files which is what they really want.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: SteenerMe on May 10, 2012, 10:10:07 AM
Shots look ok...but they seem to be edited by glamour shots...back away from the gaussian blur.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: preppyak on May 10, 2012, 10:10:43 AM
Ordinarily they don't do this however it seems a tactful way of saying they don't like their photos
At the moment they're just too plastic-looking for my tastes.
I agree with these sentiments, and I'd venture a guess that either one of them has some photo knowledge, or they have a friend that does, thus why they'd want the RAW files (to process their own way).
Quote
I'd offer to give them the RAW files. Highly unusual but so is your work.
The other option, if you're comfortable with it, is to take the meeting and see what they are looking for specifically. Maybe it's a few simple changes (backing off the highlights, less brushing, etc), and then offering to re-do them in that style. Don't let them sit their for the entire editing, but, give them a few other options for how the photos might be processed.

It could avoid a messy situation, while also not dealing with the awkwardness that would be them sitting in on your entire edit (which would take significantly longer).

Do you have your webpage? Are these a departure from your normal style? Cause that will matter too. If all your other stuff looks the same, I'd be less inclined to change the photos, but, if they aren't what you feature on your site, then they'd have a point.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: awinphoto on May 10, 2012, 10:13:20 AM
hmmm....  I like your style but I also, objectively, can see how it could be perceived as "over-edited" and soft.  I never let my clients view RAW unedited files as I have too much pride to let my clients walk out the door with photos that haven't gone through any editing/retouching.  I have heard of wedding photographers offer their photos in a slide show type of fashion initially to kind of prepare the clients for the files they are about to receive and build anticipation, and also bring them in for the formal viewing... Not of raw files but your final edits to gauge their reactions (if they seem underwhelmed or anything or wish to see any variation of a certain shot, you can show them on the fly.  Also a formal viewing is a great sales tool if you have a nice lab to get print orders.  I wouldn't give them raws or let them edit it unless they pay you extra for your time and effort, but that's just me. 
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: sach100 on May 10, 2012, 10:17:01 AM
 I think the skin areas look overdone. Otherwise IMO the shots themselves are pretty good.
If it's just that, maybe you could re-edit few of them with more natural looking skin. It's not an yes/ no situation.
Only you will be able to guess what's on their mind. Anycase, unhappy clients is no good either..

Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: bycostello on May 10, 2012, 10:23:30 AM
you've done waaaaaaaaaay too much already and never ever give out raws...
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: unfocused on May 10, 2012, 10:37:02 AM
The most important thing is to make this as a business decision, NOT as a personal decision. You have to do what is best for your future business, which probably means giving them most, but not all, that they want.

I certainly wouldn't hand over 1,600 unedited RAW files to anyone, just as I would never show someone contact sheets in the film days. People will hone in on every frame, looking for the mistakes and then bad mouth you to everyone they know.

If they are rational and not angry, I'd try to meet with them in person and get a better idea of what they want. If you feel you can deliver, then try to do that. If not, then politely decline and offer an alternative: which might include giving them the files for the 726 pictures you picked out but in a form that won't embarrass you should they simply send them to Walgreens to have prints made.

There's a part of me that says, call them and say: Sure, come on over.  How many hours do you really think they'd sit there watching you edit 1,600 photos? But, that's the devil in me talking. :)
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Orion on May 10, 2012, 10:39:14 AM
I guess the first mistake was to make those 100 edits in 3 different settings. The first and ONLY thing you should do when presenting the bride and groom the photos is the originals with only minor edits like sharpness and colour, etc . . that's it. Basic post, and maybe some cropping. Just capture the day with good composition, and lose the "white and puffy" look.

Then, and ONLY THEN, IF the bride and groom ask for artistic edits, you let them select which ones they want and negotiate a price difference, if viable. . . .

edit:

I just did my FIRST wedding, and these are some of the ones they REALLY LOVED . . and since it was my first, any edits I do will be a pleasure for me so that I can work on my portfolio, etc.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=819.msg120547#new (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=819.msg120547#new)
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: muranotop on May 10, 2012, 10:41:48 AM
I agree. Never give out RAW files to your clients. Only give them medium to high resolution JPGs. For myself, I explain to them that I do a minor edit which is what they get (includes adjusting all photo levels, contrast, exposure, etc.). Then I personally choose a few photos to work on with major edits- the more creative editing process using filters, layers, etc.  From there, I post that on my secured site so if they want to purchase it, they can do so but they're paying a higher price because its the more edited version.

Always develop a process whenever you deal with a potential client. Then get them to sign the contract and give you a deposit at that time. Do not shoot the wedding until you get a deposit to commit to the date. Give them 30 days (or 15 days) to have them pay you the balance. I used this PDF as a go-by and edit to my liking.

http://wedding-photographers-directory.com/ContractPDFs/Contract%204.pdf (http://wedding-photographers-directory.com/ContractPDFs/Contract%204.pdf)

Anyway, I hope this helps.  Lessons learned. Good luck to you. ;D
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: awinphoto on May 10, 2012, 11:02:10 AM
Also IF they wish for all photos and are a stickler on this... simple... tell them to provide you wish a portable hard drive or a very beefy thumb drive and dump them on there... no need to waste countless DVD's if you dont need to, and this is because of their displeasure... that way if they're willing to sell out $20-30 for a hard drive, and you're willing to part with your images, which i'm against, then it's a win win and you come off looking like the good guy in the transaction. 
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: CanonLITA on May 10, 2012, 11:10:17 AM
I would never give the raw, that's not the product you are suppose to sell. A professional photographer delivers a service that start with understanding the needs/emotions of the client and ends with the ability to reproduce those needs/emotions on paper, screen or whatever else. Raw files are just a part of that process, a part that the photographer has the right to manage by herself. Handling out the raw or not distinguishes the photographer from the people hired to just press the shutter. Of course retaining the raws implies the assumption of a higher responsibility, it's like promising you'll be there should they need something more out of that shooting (say, they want to print a cake for the 10th anniversary and at that point a new technology will require an high resolution file to be sent to the pastry mixer...). If talk of GB now, but imagine when people dealt with the problem of storing medium format films..
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: wockawocka on May 10, 2012, 11:31:30 AM
Guys, stop drifting away from the bigger picture.

Agreed, it's really bad to give out Raws, I'd never do it either. But, the OP's problem is the client wants the raws, a big red flag being waved around is that they mentioned overseeing the edits, this never happens. Couple that with the examples shown and you can guess what the problem is and why they're asking.

In that context...and lets keep it in context rather than give canned responses....

'Assuming' it's because of the standard of work would it not be easier to give the raws and wave them bye bye as opposed to editing another 700 images all over again, learn from it and move on. The OP certainly won't look worse than he does already by giving them over.

I would only hand over the Raw files that match the edits supplied. You don't want every bad exposure, mistake duplicate in there too. In short, you've edited them, perhaps it's not to their taste, communicate with the bride and groom. Re-editing will cost them extra but you sympathise and are happy on this occassion to supply the Raw files.

'Assuming'......
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: jaayres20 on May 10, 2012, 12:01:40 PM
Do you have a contract?  It is not a good practice to give out RAW images or unedited images?  Some might say your pictures are over edited but is that your style and the style the clients saw when they booked you?  The pictures you posted looked consistant which is important no matter the style.  I have shot almost 50 weddings and I have had a few people ask for the RAW files before they booked me but after I explained to them that my images are my brand and that I go to a lot of truble to make every image that comes form me consistant they understand and don't mention it again.  It would be like going into a restaurant and asking to go back into the kitchen to make your own meal.  I think you need to ask them very specifically what they don't like about the pictures because there are some people who are just a little controlling and are used to controlling everything.  It may not have mattered if you were Jose Villa they still might might of made the same request.  They may just not know that is something like that isn't typically done.  If they keep insisting you might try to offer further edites on a limited number of images.  No more than 25-50 but say that it would be very time consuming to go back through and re-edit all of the images and that if you did that for everyone you would have been out of business a long time ago.  Good luck and BTW I like the pictures you posted and think you have a lot going for you so don't let something like this set you back.  Just be very specific in the future so the client knows your expectations and you know their expectations.         
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: unfocused on May 10, 2012, 12:59:44 PM
Guys, stop drifting away from the bigger picture.

Exactly, this is about your business not about you. You need to make decisions and take actions that will protect your reputation for future clients. They may be unreasonable, they may not be, but the fact is you have to do what you can to minimize the damage they can do to your career. Behave like a professional and take all emotion out of the transaction.

If you can turn them into satisfied customers, great. It may be the only thing you can do is appease them. But that is still better for your business than having angry, dissatisfied customers.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: emag on May 10, 2012, 01:04:42 PM
If you can turn them into satisfied customers, great. It may be the only thing you can do is appease them. But that is still better for your business than having angry, dissatisfied customers.

Exactly.  You may never get any referrals from them, but that's still better than the alternative.   My hat's off to those of you in the wedding photography business.  It would remove much of the pleasure I find in photography.  {okay, groom, put your arm around the bride and lean over.  Bride - lean backwards and dangle your arm with the bouquet.  Gaze at each other lovingly.  Lather, rinse, repeat.}  I couldn't do it, hence it is with respect and admiration that I remove my hat to those of you who enjoy it, do it for a living and are good enough at it to stand out.  Virtual beers for all.  No snarkiness is intended.  I enjoy working on on my cars and motorcycles and I'm very good at it - I would come to despise it if done for a living.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: prestonpalmer on May 10, 2012, 03:01:02 PM
As everyone has already said. Never give out your RAW files, and I would not edit photos with a client present.  Simply explain to them that this is not how things are done in this business.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Iggy on May 10, 2012, 04:12:21 PM
I tend to agree with the previous posters in thinking that the reason they want the RAW's or to sit with you while you edit is because they are OK with the shots, but don't like the edits you provided.  To be honest, if I was the bride and I was facing the prospect of those kinds of edited shots being the only thing I got, I'd be crying.
As a client with a reasonable knowledge of PP, I would always want the RAW files, mostly because setting the WB is a lot easier on a RAW than a JPG, and "correct" WB is a somewhat personal preference, but as a photographer I wouldn't ever want a client to see a completely unprocessed file. I don't even give my husband pictures of the kids until I've done the basic exposure/WB/highlights&shadows adjustments.
A compromise would be to give them copies of full-rez, minimally processed JPG's, which is a pretty standard procedure.  That's what I got from our wedding photographers, and it was enough to satisfy my need to have control of the output beyond what I could reasonably expect from the photographers themselves, who obviously don't have time to obsess over each little blemish in hundreds of pictures.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Lloyd on May 10, 2012, 04:13:14 PM
I am not a professional photographer.  I am a partner in a three man law firm.  However, as a small business owner we share some things in common.  Our reputation is very important and it is for the most part defined by our customers.  Therefore, it is always important to recognize when your customer is dissatisfied.   I know that it is trite to say that the customer is always right, but there is an element of truth to this old motto. Years ago, those living in large communities were able to sooth their own ego and dismiss customer complaints without as many repercussions. However, we now live in a day and age when any person with a computer is able to post comments, criticisms and praise about our business and, thanks to Google, all these comments are at the finger tips of your customer base.

As a person who has run a small business for over 25 years, I would suggest that you reach out to your clients and set up a time when they can meet with you to discuss any concerns that they may have.  Tell them your goal is to have a satisfied customer and that you sense that they are not completely satisfied.  You need them to feel free to express their concerns to you rather than have them not want to hurt your feelings and then later plaster negative complaints about your work all over the internet.  If you enter into this conversation with an open mind and they are not totally unreasonable, you will likely reach an agreeable compromise. At a minimum, you may learn the real basis for their request and in the best case you will be able to satisfy their needs without a great degree of extra effort. 

As a member of a profession known to have inflated egos, I have seen it get the better of many of my brethren.  I consider professional photographers to be artists and some artists suffer the same ego issues as my lawyer friends  in that they pretend to seek out the opinions of others on their work while in reality they are really searching more for affirmation. Don’t let your ego get in the way of serving the needs of your customer. Always remember who you are working for.

It is interesting the degree to which many of the professional photographers posting in this thread want to keep their RAW files from their clients.  As a non-professional photographer, I had never thought of this as an issue. I must admit that when I create a final document I would prefer not to show my client all the drafts that led up to the final document.  However, to me what differentiates photographers is not just their eye in taking the underlying photograph, the RAW file, but their abilities in post to take this raw material and turn it into a wonderful finished product.  I think a great photographer should be proud of both steps in this process and have no issue in producing the RAW files. Nevertheless, I must imagine that professionals, who have gone down this road before, have good reasons to withhold the RAW files.

I wish the originator of this thread all the best in resolving this issue.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: fotox.tv on May 10, 2012, 04:19:03 PM
I love the quality of this thread.

And I would like to add just an additional point of view.

After having shown my results of the first weddings I receive immediate feed back that I should never show more then 200 pictures of it: some people fell asleep after about this number of pictures.

This goes along with earlier experiences with diapositive slide shows several years ago.

And I also found that the more pictures I showed with different kinds of post processing, the bigger the appetite grew to have that on all pictures.

My recommendation for the next wedding is:
Keep it to 150 - 200 pictures in medium size and give them 5 pictures really done well in big size. And tell them you could do more, but that this takes a lot of time and costs extra money.

My recommendation for your current situation is:
You seem to have unhappy clients. They want different pictures and they are spoilt because you gave them 700 edited pictures already. I would either tell them to edit the best 10 together with them (and take a long time so that they understand what they do to you) or you give them the best 10 in raw (stating that you would never do that again - just in case they might post it in twitter afterwards) and the rest in unedited jpeg. Giving them all raw pictures might just increase their hunger for the other 1000.

I wish you lots of success with your further weddings - the pictures were taken really well.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: KurtStevens on May 10, 2012, 05:22:22 PM
I believe this has been covered but as a 24 y/o wedding photographer I've learned quite a bit shooting over the last 3 years and 15+ weddings so far.

1) Contract.  This is going to save your ass.  Yes it is terrible you're having to negotiate wedding terms even after the wedding.  Make sure to get everything covered in a contract up front.  You'll have to figure out how to deal with this wedding client but this should spur you onto getting the most solid contract ever for the next client.

2) Never give out Raws. This is a death sentence.  If you're a wedding photographer, the photos are going to be how you make your money.  Why would this ever be an option for anyone to give out their hard earned work to someone who doesn't know how to edit, organize, present the photos? 

3) Same as number two but with copyright.  Keep your copyright!  Print reproduction rights and copyrights are two different things.  Make sure you know what they are so you can explain them to a client if you give them material to print.

4) Only show your best work.  Show your clients the work you feel like represents your talent and creativity.  If you're showing them bad work you're doing discredit to yourself and hurting yourself in the long run.

5) Make sure it's clear to your clients in the future that you may shoot 5 kahjillion images, doesn't mean they are going to get 5 kahjillion images.  I have this spelled out very clearly in my wedding contract.  I over shoot and make sure I deliver top quality images but I also mention that I'd rather spend more time per photo editing and perfecting a smaller amount VS more images with less time per image.

6) To please this client now without having this contract is going to be tough.  You'll have to bite the bullet though and have to bend a little bit but be firm in your defense and tell them you're running a business (if you are) and that you need to make a compromise and unfortunately cannot give out all the raws and bend to every little whim they may have.  These shots could be better (Personal opinion along with not liking the soft look) but these are by far much much much better than other photographers I've seen that people have taken to court. 

How much were you paid for this wedding?  Are they getting a fair deal when it comes down to the bottom line?  I feel like you've given out way too much for what you may have been paid for.  Remember that photography is not cheap and there is a quality of work that goes along with every photographer (hopefully) and that by giving out lots of images for really cheap, its hurting the overall market for other photographers.  It's hard to see this in the long run but this doesn't help the trend of, he is only $500 and I get 2500 images I can print at WallyWorld. Does this make sense?  I hope I've been a help without being too aggressive.  If you want more help I'd be happy to answer some questions for you.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: nikkito on May 10, 2012, 07:25:59 PM
I think your pictures are very good, just the editing is not convincing for my taste. But don't get frustrated, you have talent and like I said, the photos were well composed.
I hope you can solve this ASAP. And remember the customers AREN'T always right :)
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Cptn Rigo on May 10, 2012, 08:46:22 PM
I really like this one, but the edit mhh... its TOO soft


(http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=6427.0;attach=20762;image)
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: RLPhoto on May 10, 2012, 10:06:13 PM
The compositions are fine, but remember that capturing the moment is only half the battle. Now you must make it extraordinary by processing your RAW files to complete your vision.

These are alittle over-processed but you can have them explain what's wrong with the edits and adapt accordingly. The customer is always right until they ask for RAW files.

Good effort! Just work on your workflow a bit more.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: split personality on May 10, 2012, 10:28:23 PM
To the OP:

My personal opinion is that your sample pictures are overdone in post processing. Don't get me wrong, I actually like your artistic style but I understand that it is not for everyone. The bride must have reviewed your previous work before signing the contract. If this has been your style all along, then the client shouldn't complaint. Perhaps it is the parents or their family members who don't share the same artistic taste. Then they bombard the bride with comments such as "Oh my god, you look so fake in the picture. I don't like it, it is too photoshopped!".

Take some time to sit down and discuss with your client to fully understand why aren't they 100% satisfied. Not only is this professional, it is also the right thing to do. Wedding pictures are for life. As a photographer, you already knew that right? Emphasize that you will do whatever it takes, even to the extend of re-editing all the pictures, at no extra cost, until they can go home smiling. With that kind of an attitude, your client will definitely give you a chance and will not hesitate in referring you to others. Wedding photography heavily relies on words of mouth advertising, you must protect your name at all cost.

Now, as far as the RAW files are concerned, my answer is "no way in hell". (You don't have to say those words though)

I am a computer engineer. If you have a problem with the software I supply, then tell me what's wrong and it is my duty to fix it. I would be happy to fix it again and again, until you are 100% satisfied. If you are still concerned, then I will provide additional licenses or support free of charge. In a way, my users are helping me in improving my own product, I owe it to them. But under no circumstances can a user come to me and say "Hey, I don't like this feature you included in the current version, can you give me the source code so I could, errr... make some adjustment to it?"

Not convinced? Try calling Microsoft and tell them that you aren't satisfied with Windows and ask for the source code, good luck!

My source code is as important as your RAW files. This is the work we produce and we don't share them with our clients. Unless your contract specifically allows the bride to keep a copy of the RAW files, it is perhaps the first time I hear such unusual request.

Based on your story and your sample pictures, maybe they wish to have their photos toned down a bit on the post processing. Here's an easy way to confirm:
- Choose 5 to 10 of your best shots and process from scratch.
- Make only subtle changes to the RAWs, like tweak the white balance and exposure.
- Focus on the bride's skin tone to look as natural as possible (as your eyes saw them in real life).
- That's it. Make medium sized prints of both versions (original airbrushed style vs. minimal edit style).
- Lay them on the table and ask which version does the bride prefer.

If we are correct to assume that your photos are over-processed, then the bride would pick the minimal edited prints as a preference. In this case, the answer is easy: Take a few days and redo all the work at no cost. It might suck as you won't be able to go watch The Avengers this weekend, but it's worth the trouble as long as your client is happy.

The reason to bring two versions of the prints is to acknowledge that you might have gone too far in post, without having them saying out loud "Hm... I know that you spend countless hours working on them... but we feel that they don't match our expectations. Hey, it's ok! We are willing to sit and watch the editing process." That would hurt the photographer's pride wouldn't it? Guess what, you now put them in a comfortable position to simply choose a preference. They don't have to say anything, just watch where the finger is pointing to.

(Oh... and I do shoot weddings occasionally. Mainly as a 2nd shooter free of charge for close friends. I do have a photographer side in me.)

Good luck!
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: aznstuart on May 11, 2012, 06:03:33 PM
So from the flipside, what do you, as professional photographers do when it is your big day? I am currently single, but have been thinking about what I would do for my own wedding. As a photographer, I think I'd just want to have the RAW files right after the wedding and edit the pictures myself instead of waiting a few weeks to see them. What have you guy/gal photographers done?
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: briansquibb on May 11, 2012, 06:38:48 PM
So from the flipside, what do you, as professional photographers do when it is your big day? I am currently single, but have been thinking about what I would do for my own wedding. As a photographer, I think I'd just want to have the RAW files right after the wedding and edit the pictures myself instead of waiting a few weeks to see them. What have you guy/gal photographers done?

I come from a family of photographers - the hardest thing was to get a group shot as everyone wanted to take it :)
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: ers811 on May 11, 2012, 09:26:46 PM
So from the flipside, what do you, as professional photographers do when it is your big day? I am currently single, but have been thinking about what I would do for my own wedding. As a photographer, I think I'd just want to have the RAW files right after the wedding and edit the pictures myself instead of waiting a few weeks to see them. What have you guy/gal photographers done?

I'm in the same boat.  Getting married soon and nobody seems to want to give me the raws.  I totally understand, it's just disappointing knowing I'm probably one of their few clients who (IMO) knows what they're doing.

But I'm so excited, and really love the work of the photographer I found that I've let the issue go.  It really doesn't bother me.  I know we will love the end product, and frankly I have a few things on my plate right now!
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: sb on May 11, 2012, 09:29:30 PM
As a photographer, I think I'd just want to have the RAW files right after the wedding and edit the pictures myself instead of waiting a few weeks to see them. What have you guy/gal photographers done?

No freakin' way :-) I have enough editing work to do without worrying about my own wedding pictures. We just found a photographer who is similar enough to us and let her do all the work. Plus you may find out (like I did) that you don't care about seeing yourself in pictures anyway. I've looked at my wedding pics exactly once. Maybe I'll look at them again in 40 years :-)

But back to the point...

Lots of good advice has been given already, so I'll be brief:

You fudged up with the processing, so now your best course of action would be to actually give them the RAWs and learn from this. However I would still not give them absolute RAWs, just do slight contrast + sharpening LR preset on all of them and give them that. They will still show those pictures to people and you don't want RAW shots with your name on it. Moving forward though, never give RAWs. Processing is half of the work, so I wouldn't want to give unprocessed files more than I'd want to buy a house with no roof. Just take it easy with photoshop... too many people go for the over-processed "instagram" look, and it just doesn't good.

As a side note, I think you mentioned you gave them different versions of same pics (color/black and white etc). This cheapens the product I think. A picture either calls for B&W processing or it doesn't. Don't give more than 1 version of any picture. You should be deciding on what your product looks like, not the customer.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Orangutan on May 13, 2012, 12:07:27 AM
the bride has TERRIBLE agne

1. How would the bride feel if she saw the above post?  If you wanted to post an example it should have masked out her distinguishing features.  She is not one your models, she's an "ordinary" person who hired you to photograph her wedding.  I suggest you delete the above post before the All-Knowing Internet delivers it to her.

2. Depending on where you live, photography like this may be considered work-for-hire, in which case the clients may already own the raw's regardless of the advice you're getting here.  This is why you need a contract to spell out ownership of the raw's, deliverables, etc.  In the absence of a contract, I strongly suggest you consult a lawyer rather than rely on the advice of a bunch of photographers who are not lawyers.

3. There are tricks to minimize acne without affecting the entire scene.  (it wouldn't surprise me if Nik had a filter for that -- just kidding)

4. Your composition is very nice, I agree with other posters that the softness doesn't suit my taste, at least not for the bulk of the photos.  I think this would be an interesting effect for the "creative edits" folder.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: unfocused on May 13, 2012, 12:11:30 AM
I hope you have a second career in mind because posting that picture of your customer was one of the most boneheaded things I've ever seen. That was a customer you just humiliated.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: nitsujwalker on May 13, 2012, 12:27:43 AM
interesting thread... But you should really remove that before/after photo before your client sees it...
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Hillsilly on May 13, 2012, 12:47:25 AM
I agree with the above three posts. 

Anyway....

Some photographers retain the negatives / computer files so that they can earn future income from print sales.  Often the prices charged are over the top.  Your clients might just be concerned about this.  Plus, who thinks they'll be able to track down their wedding photographer in ten years' time?

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with requesting the RAW files.  When I chose a wedding photographer, I specifically chose one that would give me all of the negatives after printing off the photos that we selected.  If I was searching for a wedding photographer today, I'd be very suspicious of a photographer that didn't include the RAW files in their package. 
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: Janco on May 13, 2012, 04:08:10 AM
..... I normally dont soften my images THAT much, the problem, if you will - is that the bride
has TERRIBLE agne, her skin is like a pizza.. im not kidding..
so my fiance, who works for Redken as a make up and hair artist, did the make-up and Hair for the wedding, what she did was that she airbrushed her face - with a make-up Airbrush. .. to get rid of the agne.. i just added a little extra..  I would love to share this before and after picture with you guys actually:

Now this is probably the rudest thing I've ever read. I don't know if it's rude from me when I hope she sues you? Let's hope her (according to you) pizza gets better soon. I still don't believe this. I don't even care if it's maybe a shot for friends or something, it's just a complete lack of respect. I'm sorry I had to write this...
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: expatinasia on May 13, 2012, 06:11:41 AM
I work in Advertising as an Art Director for an ad agency

I would love to know which ad agency you work for!

Wow. I am speechless, at what you posted.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: TotoEC on May 13, 2012, 07:07:10 AM
I would FIRE you in a heartbeat IF you were working for me posting that picture!

For someone who is supposed to be an "Art Director for an ad agency", with "education is a MA and a BA in Compositing / visual effects"  you know nothing about Contract. 

Do you have a model release that you posted her face onto this forum?

Man, you ought to delete that picture before you get SUED.  Even then, it might already be too late!

I hope you have tons of money for damages.

Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: wockawocka on May 13, 2012, 07:26:08 AM
McDonalds are looking for staff.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: briansquibb on May 13, 2012, 07:28:32 AM
I would FIRE you in a heartbeat IF you were working for me posting that picture!

For someone who is supposed to be an "Art Director for an ad agency", with "education is a MA and a BA in Compositing / visual effects"  you know nothing about Contract. 

Do you have a model release that you posted her face onto this forum?

Man, you ought to delete that picture before you get SUED.  Even then, it might already be too late!

I hope you have tons of money for damages.

In the UK you don need a model release unless the picture is for some form of commercial gain - is it different in the UK.

Model release is separate from breach of contract
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: TotoEC on May 13, 2012, 08:13:14 AM
I would FIRE you in a heartbeat IF you were working for me posting that picture!

For someone who is supposed to be an "Art Director for an ad agency", with "education is a MA and a BA in Compositing / visual effects"  you know nothing about Contract. 

Do you have a model release that you posted her face onto this forum?

Man, you ought to delete that picture before you get SUED.  Even then, it might already be too late!

I hope you have tons of money for damages.



In the UK you don need a model release unless the picture is for some form of commercial gain - is it different in the UK.

Model release is separate from breach of contract



Granted that it was not posted for commercial gain but even in LaLa land, no woman in their right mind will sign a wedding contract that includes a grievious comments like he did.

The picture shown looks to me, like a model from the AD agency where he work hence, I mentioned a model release.
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: bornshooter on May 13, 2012, 09:16:31 AM
Never give your raw files to the client unless there are willing to pay for them.Also i notice that your photos are over edited far too soft IMO.Either way keep the RAW's :D
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: bornshooter on May 13, 2012, 09:23:22 AM
wow as i was reading through the rest of the post then i see that really nasty get a grip!
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: hoghavemercy on May 13, 2012, 11:48:08 AM
woah that was a lot of replys fast.

thanks for ALLLLL the feedback.
to respond to some of the feedback, I work in Advertising as an Art Director for an ad agency, and usually clients want Porcelin skin or almost barbie like skin, so thats my background, photography is a side project of mine :) but i did work as a film compositor so my education is a MA and a BA in Compositing / visual effects.
First of, most people seem to like the composition in the picture, but not the softness of the edit. ( i appriciate cretive critisism so by all means- thanks)

Someone posted a link to a wedding shoot - but when i clicked it all i saw was pictures of something completely different? can someone repost this please i'd Love to see some other wedding photographers work.. very much.!

here's a little side note, I normally dont soften my images THAT much, the problem, if you will - is that the bride
has TERRIBLE agne, her skin is like a pizza.. im not kidding..
so my fiance, who works for Redken as a make up and hair artist, did the make-up and Hair for the wedding, what she did was that she airbrushed her face - with a make-up Airbrush. .. to get rid of the agne.. i just added a little extra..  I would love to share this before and after picture with you guys actually:

hot dang, lots of layers in PS >:( , Thank God for the Spot Healing Brush Tool!! :-\ but you should never post your clients face without their approval of some sort/
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: nightbreath on May 13, 2012, 01:16:09 PM
... can someone repost this please i'd Love to see some other wedding photographers work.. very much.!
I didn't see that post, but you can check out my works at http://luxuryphoto.com.ua/ (http://luxuryphoto.com.ua/#/gallery/wedding)
Title: Re: I have a question about wedding photography
Post by: adamoe on May 13, 2012, 05:01:47 PM
I removed the photo due to .. high demand..
the bride Saw the before and after actually - which was done with make-up only, no photoshop work in there.
she agreed for my fiance to use it as a promo for her work.

i shouldnt have been so harsh in my words obviously but I've had some back and forth with the bride and was a little annoyed with her.