canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on May 17, 2012, 12:33:24 PM

Title: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Canon Rumors on May 17, 2012, 12:33:24 PM
The Next Rebel
I received a good bit of info about the next Rebel. I put it at CR2.5 just until I receive a bit more confirmation.

An announcement is slated for June.

Canon EOS Rebel 650D/T4i

thanks

cr

Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: moreorless on May 17, 2012, 12:37:37 PM
Seems likely to be, filter all the AF systems downwards on crop and introduce a new one for the 7D mk2.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: neuroanatomist on May 17, 2012, 12:40:11 PM
Finally, a touchscreen.  Now, all those naysayers can rest easy.   ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: RLPhoto on May 17, 2012, 12:41:56 PM
Yay! No More Megapixels ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: DB on May 17, 2012, 12:44:30 PM
Presumably they've primarily gone for a video upgrade. Still only 9 AF points (albeit 8 more cross-type) and same or similar sensor. Wonder if it will have headphone monitoring + manual audio controls?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Drizzt321 on May 17, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
If this does have full time auto-focus in video mode, they better push that upwards with a firmware update. The only reason I could think they wouldn't is CPU requirements, cause it's probably not a hardware one.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: pittguy578 on May 17, 2012, 12:53:01 PM
Is it a new sensor? I know it's the same MP. I thought video AF was a hardware issue. I didn't think they could just basically modify the T3i with new firmware to make AF possible .
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: moreorless on May 17, 2012, 12:58:55 PM
Is it a new sensor? I know it's the same MP. I thought video AF was a hardware issue. I didn't think they could just basically modify the T3i with new firmware to make AF possible .

My guess not its the same sensor with the new one left to the 70D/7D and filtered down in the 700D next year.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Turbocharged on May 17, 2012, 01:00:00 PM
my 5D3 doesnt have continuous af in video and now a rebel has it?

i really needed it ...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: cnardo on May 17, 2012, 01:07:56 PM
has anyone seen the Amazon release scheduled for today 5/17 in FRANCE regarding the Rebel T4i ???
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: DzPhotography on May 17, 2012, 01:12:14 PM
so out with the swivel LCD and in with the touch screen? replacing one gimmick by another :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Astro on May 17, 2012, 01:15:23 PM
BOOOOOOORRRRRRIIIIINNNNNG.

im not very tempted to update my second body, a 550D, to this.
i would like to have a new crop body.. but i guess it´s the old sensor and i don´t need video enhancements.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 17, 2012, 01:16:34 PM
Is it a new sensor? I know it's the same MP. ...

...
18mp (no word on whether or not its a new or modified 18mp sensor
...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: mitchell3417 on May 17, 2012, 01:20:17 PM
The autofocus is going to be 10 times more usable. sounds like a great camera and a perfect backup for a 7d.

Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: rocketdesigner on May 17, 2012, 01:32:10 PM
Presumably they've primarily gone for a video upgrade. Still only 9 AF points (albeit 8 more cross-type) and same or similar sensor. Wonder if it will have headphone monitoring + manual audio controls?

That is certainly the question of the day in my mind ... or will audio control stop at 7D mkII or, heaven forbid, 5D mkIII :-\?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: unfocused on May 17, 2012, 01:36:08 PM
My takeaway: Nothing in this announcement to indicate Canon is diverging from their traditional development path. Add a few bells and whistles to the newest Rebel model to be able to call it new and attract buyers who want the latest version. Save the major changes for the 7DII and then let selected improvements trickle down for another 2-3 years.

so out with the swivel LCD and in with the touch screen?...

Are the two incompatible? Why does touch screen mean no swivel LCD?

I'll be interested to see how the touch screen works. My biggest concern will be accidentally changing settings, but the click wheel navigation system is also prone to the same problem. After years of iPhones and tablets, I'm hoping the technology is mature enough to work intuitively on a camera. I wonder if they will let it trickle up to the 7DII and 5DIV.

Yay! No More Megapixels ;D

Sony is keeping a 16 mp sensor in their new Nex-F3 and A37. Perhaps both have determined that the marketing benefit of ever-higher megapixels has reached the point of diminishing returns.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: preppyak on May 17, 2012, 01:42:19 PM
Are the two incompatible? Why does touch screen mean no swivel LCD?
My XA-10's at work are a swivel screen that is entirely touch screen, so not only are they compatible, Canon already has the technology for it in a consumer level package. I imagine their Vixia stuff has it too

Quote
Sony is keeping a 16 mp sensor in their new Nex-F3 and A37. Perhaps both have determined that the marketing benefit of ever-higher megapixels has reached the point of diminishing returns.
Probably, especially because at the pixel density, its the equivalent of a pretty high MP body on full-frame. They'd lose too much low-light ability if they went to 22, 24, etc, and wouldn't really be gaining much. It's probably only Sony's sensor tech that allows them to last at 24mp.

The autofocus is going to be 10 times more usable. sounds like a great camera and a perfect backup for a 7d.
And you know this how? Every SLR with "autofocus" that I've seen is a joke...manual focus is much better there. Heck, even the Sony SLT auto-focus isn't that great, and it has some major advantages in that regard over a DSLR.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dstppy on May 17, 2012, 01:43:40 PM
Finally, a touchscreen.  Now, all those naysayers can rest easy.   ;)

Yep.  Let's hope it drops calls as well as the other cameras out there too.

I knew VZN was limiting their bandwidth for a reason!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Dylan777 on May 17, 2012, 01:45:22 PM
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<strong>The Next Rebel<br />


</strong>I received a good bit of info about the next Rebel. I put it at CR2.5 just until I receive a bit more confirmation.</p>
<p>An announcement is slated for June.</p>
<p><strong>Canon EOS Rebel 650D/T4i</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>18mp (no word on whether or not its a new or modified 18mp sensor)</li>
<li>9 AF Points, all cross-type</li>
<li>Touchscreen LCD</li>
<li>Continuous AF in LiveView & Video Recording</li>
<li>June Announcement</li>
</ul>
<p><em>thanks</em></p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>


No more manual focus on video???? I'm interested
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: gene_can_sing on May 17, 2012, 01:57:50 PM
Probably going to pick up a Rebel as a cheap video B-Cam to my soon-to-be Sony FS since I have too many canon lenses.

I just hope that the Rebel actually has true HD (not the soft up-res'd stuff). That and 1080p 60fps slow motion is all I ask for. But since the 5D3 doesn't have either of those, I'm not holding my breath.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: preppyak on May 17, 2012, 01:58:37 PM
No more manual focus on video???? I'm interested
Here's what you'll get

https://vimeo.com/23745431

Note that that is shot with probably f/11 or higher, so it doesn't even have much focus hunting to do. But, it still sounds awful and isn't that impressive. Take a shot with lower light and an aperture more like f/4, and its pretty unusable

https://vimeo.com/23943236

If Canon had solved those issues in some brilliant or ingenious way, they'd have put it in the 5dIII. That they are just leaving it to the T4i tells me all I need to know....it would have made pros angry since its not very good.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: preppyak on May 17, 2012, 02:01:59 PM
Probably going to pick up a Rebel as a cheap video B-Cam to my soon-to-be Sony FS since I have too many canon lenses.

I just hope that the Rebel actually has true HD (not the soft up-res'd stuff). That and 1080p 60fps slow motion is all I ask for. But since the 5D3 doesn't have either of those, I'm not holding my breath.
Sounds like you want a hacked GH2. You'll get your resolution (comparable with your FS, etc), and you'll get 1080/60. Not to mention it will open up the ability to use FD lenses as well

edit: some examples, http://www.eoshd.com/content/6681/shootout-reveals-panasonic-gh2-resolution-at-canon-c300-level (http://www.eoshd.com/content/6681/shootout-reveals-panasonic-gh2-resolution-at-canon-c300-level)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: awinphoto on May 17, 2012, 02:04:18 PM
BUT WHAT IS THE DR GOING TO BE?  WHAT ABOUT THE NIKON (RUMORED) 24MP AND SONYS 24MP?  CANON IS FALLING BEHIND, THE WORLD IS GOING TO STOP SPINNING?!?!?!?! lol
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dunkers on May 17, 2012, 02:21:54 PM
This is exactly what I was hoping Canon would do.

I want them to keep the same the mp count at 18 whether it be the old sensor or the new one I don't really care. Pair that 18mp sensor with a Digic 5 to show off how much better the Digic 5 is compared to the 4.

I also wanted them to put the XXD AF system into the rebel bodies. If these rumors are true then they are going that route.

Hopefully that would also mean that they are restoring the XXD line back to its rightful place as a semi-pro body rather than a rebel on steroids. Put the 7D's AF system into the 70D. Basically merge the 7D and the 70D together into one body.


As for the 7D2, I'd rather they do away with that lineup entirely. Or make the 7D the new aps-H series to keep all the bird watchers and sports shooters who need that extra reach that the 1DX does not offer. A croppeed 1DX if you will. And put it at a price point that separates it enough from the 70D so buyers won't be kicking themselves if they buy one and not the other.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: gene_can_sing on May 17, 2012, 02:23:54 PM
Probably going to pick up a Rebel as a cheap video B-Cam to my soon-to-be Sony FS since I have too many canon lenses.

I just hope that the Rebel actually has true HD (not the soft up-res'd stuff). That and 1080p 60fps slow motion is all I ask for. But since the 5D3 doesn't have either of those, I'm not holding my breath.
Sounds like you want a hacked GH2. You'll get your resolution (comparable with your FS, etc), and you'll get 1080/60. Not to mention it will open up the ability to use FD lenses as well

edit: some examples, http://www.eoshd.com/content/6681/shootout-reveals-panasonic-gh2-resolution-at-canon-c300-level (http://www.eoshd.com/content/6681/shootout-reveals-panasonic-gh2-resolution-at-canon-c300-level)

The GH2 would be cool, except I have too many Canon lenses. Plus, I'm not crazy about GH2 color and the 2x crop. Canon has much better Color science and aesthetic IMO, but that's entirely subjective.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: tomsop on May 17, 2012, 02:24:55 PM
I am interested in the T4i since I will be upgrading from the Rebel xsi (no video).  It sounds like the video AF feature is presumed to be lacking because if it worked so well why isn't it included in the $2000 more expensive Mark 5d3.  Also Nikon's complement to the t4i has AF video but no one is raving on about it. 

Is shooting video with manual AF a big headache?  What about taking video of kids?   

What happened to the rumors about wireless uploading of photos?  The Nikon has a dongle you attach for wireless transfer. 

If you were in the same upgrade path and the camera is just for family and personal use - would you go for the t4i or wait for something better coming out soon?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Finalist on May 17, 2012, 02:32:57 PM
If the t4i is announced in June, how long will it take for the body to become available in stores in the US?

(The reason of my question is: I am starting a long roadtrip at the 11th of June and badly need a new DSLR -- if Canon is so unbelievably slow to release its new models I am considering buying a Nikon instead)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: preppyak on May 17, 2012, 02:36:45 PM
The GH2 would be cool, except I have too many Canon lenses. Plus, I'm not crazy about GH2 color and the 2x crop. Canon has much better Color science and aesthetic IMO, but that's entirely subjective.
Yeah, I hear you about the color. I shoot the stuff I can on my 60D, and when I need slow-motion or autofocus, I use my TM700. The color definitely isn't as nice (kind of blue/grey).

I kind of want one anyway though, because the resolution is so crazy good...I feel like I'd be willing to take my chances in post with cleaning up the color some just to get that resolution
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: preppyak on May 17, 2012, 02:39:09 PM
If the t4i is announced in June, how long will it take for the body to become available in stores in the US?
I'd doubt you would have one in your hands by June 11th, unless they announced it June 1st or sooner. With the rebel line, they are usually available within the month of its announcement (unlike say, the 1DX), but, Canon's production may be slow enough that that is not true this time. They might also have held off the announcement until they had enough stock to meet initial demand.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Christian_Stella on May 17, 2012, 02:46:16 PM
Finally!  Now we can play Angry Birds on our camera. But no 1 megapixel camera on the back so I can take pictures of my face as I take pictures?  I need to video conference with my client as I shoot their photos and I need them to see my cheek accidentally changing the ISO on the touchscreen as it happens, so that they know why the photos didn't come out.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: ruuneos on May 17, 2012, 02:50:04 PM
WHY TOUCHSCREEN?! Bit harder hit to screen and you have to get new body just because touchscreen isn't working..
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Dylan777 on May 17, 2012, 03:04:19 PM
No more manual focus on video???? I'm interested
Here's what you'll get

https://vimeo.com/23745431

Note that that is shot with probably f/11 or higher, so it doesn't even have much focus hunting to do. But, it still sounds awful and isn't that impressive. Take a shot with lower light and an aperture more like f/4, and its pretty unusable

https://vimeo.com/23943236

If Canon had solved those issues in some brilliant or ingenious way, they'd have put it in the 5dIII. That they are just leaving it to the T4i tells me all I need to know....it would have made pros angry since its not very good.

Thanks for the links
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: MK5GTI on May 17, 2012, 03:25:03 PM
^ I am sure Canon is not going the same route with the D5100 continuous AF. if thats the case, they can do that in the T2i.

hopefully so sort of hybrid of CD/PDAF?

if they can do that, it will prove Sony translucent mirror tech all wrong.... we shell see......
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: D_Rochat on May 17, 2012, 03:26:03 PM
My nose didn't smear the screen nearly enough. Now I can finish the job with my fingers  ;D  :P  To me, the all cross type 9 point is a big deal for the Rebel series and if I were to buy a Rebel again, I wouldn't even think twice about which one to get. Good on them for actually making it better.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Irishpanther on May 17, 2012, 03:46:58 PM
I hope they've improved the touch screen over my P&S I got this January.  Otherwise, hopefully it'll stay as a feature on the Rebel line.  I wouldn't worry so much about my face activating it, unless the proximity detector like my T1i is no longer a feature.  But if it were to trickle up to the 7D2 forget it.  I'd even prefer no articulating screen on the 7D2 because I'd lose all the left hand navigability.  Buttons are more dependable in my experience.  It'll be interesting to see how it's implemented. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: CanonCameraFan on May 17, 2012, 03:57:57 PM
So better hope that the rumoured silent autofocus kit lens really is silent. The extra cross type focus points would be great but staying with my 550D and saving the money for glass, or a proper upgrade to a FF or much better crop body. My 550d with ML rocks. Why on earth would I want to part with it?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: crazyrunner33 on May 17, 2012, 04:47:31 PM
The biggest upgrade will be the Digic 5 which in turn enhances low light performance dramatically even with the same sensor.  This is more than enough reason for me to ditch the T3i and 7D.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: gene_can_sing on May 17, 2012, 04:48:41 PM
not crazy about the touch screen idea. Why would I want finger smudges while I'm trying just focus and exposure? Plus I use a Z-Finder so I would have to take it off inorder to use the touch screen.

Are you they going to have an option to disable it?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 17, 2012, 04:49:58 PM
The biggest upgrade will be the Digic 5 which in turn enhances low light performance dramatically even with the same sensor.  This is more than enough reason for me to ditch the T3i and 7D.

Still the 18mp sensor is 3 yrs old. maybe 7D2 will get a new 18m AND dual digic 5 :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: crazyrunner33 on May 17, 2012, 04:57:29 PM


Still the 18mp sensor is 3 yrs old. maybe 7D2 will get a new 18m AND dual digic 5 :D

That is very tempting to say the least, if I shot only photography then I would hop on that for sure!  For video purposes I'll probably go to the 5D3 for magic lantern.  With the 7D there weren't many if any people who could figure out the dual processor configuration, probably because it's the same technology as a 1D.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 17, 2012, 05:01:50 PM
just itching to know what 18mp sensor the Rebel will see.  I suspect, as disapointing as it would be, that it wil be the same 3 yr old sensor with Digic 5 -- which would be an improvement to be sure, but not a game changer.  it would be a quick turnaround for Canon it would seem to me.  but I hope Canon Delights us with a new 18mp sensor that also finds its way to the 7D - -and that ISO/DR improvements come from more than just software
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: drjlo on May 17, 2012, 05:04:12 PM
If it's the same tired 18 MP sensor,  :-[ :-[ on Canon. 
Perhaps Canon should seriously think about buying their sensors from Sony like Nikon does.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 17, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
from Sony I'm sure you mean :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 17, 2012, 05:11:31 PM
With continuous AF I might get one for some 600mm movies  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Manet on May 17, 2012, 05:44:47 PM
So, does this mean that the 650d might have faster auto focus in "live view" mode? My girlfriend prefer using live view over the "view finder", but complains about really slow auto focus (550D) at times..  Also, will different lenses (canon vs. 3rd party for instance) have an impact on the auto focus speed as well?

I'm new to SLRs, so don't "shoot" me if/when I say something stupid.. :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: sleepnever on May 17, 2012, 06:21:08 PM
Hmm.. would be upgrading from a T2i and it looks like they're focusing more on video which I care little about. I was hoping for a few more AF points, flip out screen like the T3i, a Digic5 and misc improvements. I realize this is a rumor, but its looking more like I'll have to jump to a 60D/7D or wait for those to refresh later this year.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: nikkito on May 17, 2012, 06:24:26 PM
T4i will come with touchscreen and Angry Birds installed [CR2.5]
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: roger1 on May 17, 2012, 06:33:20 PM
If the t4i is announced in June, how long will it take for the body to become available in stores in the US?
I'd doubt you would have one in your hands by June 11th, unless they announced it June 1st or sooner. With the rebel line, they are usually available within the month of its announcement (unlike say, the 1DX), but, Canon's production may be slow enough that that is not true this time. They might also have held off the announcement until they had enough stock to meet initial demand.
How about by July 9th? What would be your take on that? I'm going to Hawaii on the 10th. I wouldn't mind upgrading since I still have the original 300D Rebel.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marine03 on May 17, 2012, 07:31:32 PM
I'm sorry but I've never seen an explanation of the benefit of Cross Type AF points could someone quickly explain?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: wickidwombat on May 17, 2012, 07:46:56 PM
<li>18mp (no word on whether or not its a new or modified 18mp sensor)</li>
<li>9 AF Points, all cross-type</li>
<li>Touchscreen LCD</li>
<li>Continuous AF in LiveView & Video Recording</li>

price of the 60D is going to go through the floor
I wonder what price these are going to come out at?
$900?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: daniemare on May 17, 2012, 08:08:45 PM
This is exactly what I was hoping Canon would do.

I want them to keep the same the mp count at 18 whether it be the old sensor or the new one I don't really care. Pair that 18mp sensor with a Digic 5 to show off how much better the Digic 5 is compared to the 4.

I also wanted them to put the XXD AF system into the rebel bodies. If these rumors are true then they are going that route.

Hopefully that would also mean that they are restoring the XXD line back to its rightful place as a semi-pro body rather than a rebel on steroids. Put the 7D's AF system into the 70D. Basically merge the 7D and the 70D together into one body.


As for the 7D2, I'd rather they do away with that lineup entirely. Or make the 7D the new aps-H series to keep all the bird watchers and sports shooters who need that extra reach that the 1DX does not offer. A croppeed 1DX if you will. And put it at a price point that separates it enough from the 70D so buyers won't be kicking themselves if they buy one and not the other.

I say keep the 7D Mark II as your mini 1DX and make the 70D the FF Rebel. Now there is giving meaning back to the XXD line
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Woody on May 17, 2012, 08:11:52 PM
The 64 million dollar question is: any improvement in low ISO dynamic range?

In terms of specs alone the T4i/650D beat the D5100/D3200. But if there is no improvement in low ISO dynamic range, it's still a disappointment.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: tntwit on May 17, 2012, 08:20:22 PM
so out with the swivel LCD and in with the touch screen? replacing one gimmick by another :P

Somebody better tell Apple that their iPad is one big touch screen gimmick.  You may not have noticed, but the world is going touch screen, including Windows 8.  My Sony camcorder from 2004 has a swivel LCD with a touch screen.  This is not new technology and it is far more intuitive than trying to navigate around with buttons which is like using your keyboard when your mouse dies on your computer.

As far as the swivel being a gimmick, I use a T3i at work to photograph industrial equipment and I use one for personal use. I find the gimmick rather useful, enough so that I specifically chose the T3i over the T2i for that reason.  You may not use it all the time, but when you are taking photos high or low or if the tripod is backed into a corner where you can't get behind the camera, the swivel is very useful.  Adding the touch screen will add to this because when the camera is in a position that makes the swivel convenient, it means the back of the camera is at an odd angle that is hard to operate where the screen would be facing the operator.

Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: idimoe on May 17, 2012, 10:17:16 PM
In terms of specs alone the T4i/650D beat the D5100/D3200.

Really? It seems like more of a wash for me between the D3200 and the t4i. Both camera have continuous AF, nikon has a bigger sensor (which isn't always a good thing) and 2 more AF points (big whoop + not sure if they are all cross type like t4i).

But the D3200 is meant to compete with the t3 not the t3i/t4i. Shrug, all pretty similar IMO.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: EOBeav on May 17, 2012, 11:02:41 PM
I don't think Canon encourages users to move from a xxxD to another xxxD. They'd like you to move up to the xxD and xD's.

BOOOOOOORRRRRRIIIIINNNNNG.

im not very tempted to update my second body, a 550D, to this.
i would like to have a new crop body.. but i guess it´s the old sensor and i don´t need video enhancements.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: c.d.embrey on May 17, 2012, 11:12:51 PM

Sony is keeping a 16 mp sensor in their new Nex-F3 and A37. Perhaps both have determined that the marketing benefit of ever-higher megapixels has reached the point of diminishing returns.

Both are bottom of the line cameras. So I wouldn't read too much into it. We'll have to wait to see what happens with the 24Mp NEX 7 and a77. Sony isn't Canikon, they seem to march to the beat of a different drum.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: nazdar on May 17, 2012, 11:41:03 PM
This continuous AF can be very Sh*ty and slow. ... But better than nothing.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: c.d.embrey on May 17, 2012, 11:59:30 PM

If Canon had solved those issues in some brilliant or ingenious way, they'd have put it in the 5dIII. That they are just leaving it to the T4i tells me all I need to know....it would have made pros angry since its not very good.

Check-out the video test of a Sony FS 700  https://vimeo.com/40369782  the follow focus works very well. The test was done by Andrew Young, his work has received an Academy Award nomination, multiple Emmy Awards and the Grand Jury Prize at the Sundance Film Festival.

Don't confuse the Nikon D5100 auto-focus, with a Sony auto-focus. My NEX 5n, using face detection, does a good job of keeping a person in focus as they walk around a room, even at f/2.8. If Sony can do this, why not Canon ???
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: aznable on May 18, 2012, 12:57:48 AM
I'm sorry but I've never seen an explanation of the benefit of Cross Type AF points could someone quickly explain?

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/Canon-EOS-DSLR-Autofocus-Explained.aspx (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Photography-Tips/Canon-EOS-DSLR-Autofocus-Explained.aspx)

A cross-type sensor is a horizontal line sensor and a vertical line sensor at the same AF point, meaning that point is able to detect lines in both orientations - that makes it more likely that the AF point will be sampling a feature that has the correct orientation to activate the sensor.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 18, 2012, 01:20:43 AM
so out with the swivel LCD and in with the touch screen? replacing one gimmick by another :P

Somebody better tell Apple that their iPad is one big touch screen gimmick.  You may not have noticed, but the world is going touch screen, including Windows 8.  My Sony camcorder from 2004 has a swivel LCD with a touch screen.  This is not new technology and it is far more intuitive than trying to navigate around with buttons which is like using your keyboard when your mouse dies on your computer.

As far as the swivel being a gimmick, I use a T3i at work to photograph industrial equipment and I use one for personal use. I find the gimmick rather useful, enough so that I specifically chose the T3i over the T2i for that reason.  You may not use it all the time, but when you are taking photos high or low or if the tripod is backed into a corner where you can't get behind the camera, the swivel is very useful.  Adding the touch screen will add to this because when the camera is in a position that makes the swivel convenient, it means the back of the camera is at an odd angle that is hard to operate where the screen would be facing the operator.

Touch screens are fine - except for those with big fingers and poor sighted. My father takes pictures with his P&S happily as he is longsighted (it has optical viewfinder) , but has memorized the position and meaning of the buttons.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: wickidwombat on May 18, 2012, 02:58:12 AM
so out with the swivel LCD and in with the touch screen? replacing one gimmick by another :P

Somebody better tell Apple that their iPad is one big touch screen gimmick.  You may not have noticed, but the world is going touch screen, including Windows 8.  My Sony camcorder from 2004 has a swivel LCD with a touch screen.  This is not new technology and it is far more intuitive than trying to navigate around with buttons which is like using your keyboard when your mouse dies on your computer.

As far as the swivel being a gimmick, I use a T3i at work to photograph industrial equipment and I use one for personal use. I find the gimmick rather useful, enough so that I specifically chose the T3i over the T2i for that reason.  You may not use it all the time, but when you are taking photos high or low or if the tripod is backed into a corner where you can't get behind the camera, the swivel is very useful.  Adding the touch screen will add to this because when the camera is in a position that makes the swivel convenient, it means the back of the camera is at an odd angle that is hard to operate where the screen would be facing the operator.

Touch screens are fine - except for those with big fingers and poor sighted. My father takes pictures with his P&S happily as he is longsighted (it has optical viewfinder) , but has memorized the position and meaning of the buttons.

and big noses.... :(
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 18, 2012, 03:52:46 AM
I'm sorry but I've never seen an explanation of the benefit of Cross Type AF points could someone quickly explain?

Try focussing on venetian blinds w/o cross type af and it'll explain itsself... it's about pattern detection.

Yay! No More Megapixels ;D

We should do a lottery - my bet it'll be the same 18mp sensor, and this would be no reason to cheer. When they introduce new tech, it'll in more expensive bodies, and then they'll at least do 19-20mp just for marketing reasons.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marine03 on May 18, 2012, 06:09:33 AM

We should do a lottery - my bet it'll be the same 18mp sensor, and this would be no reason to cheer. When they introduce new tech, it'll in more expensive bodies, and then they'll at least do 19-20mp just for marketing reasons.

I agree 1000% this year they offer the cross type auto focus with Digic 5 as an improvement in a few months when 7D2 is announced with new sensor etc etc making it king of the APC hill they can then trickle down that sensor in another year or so like they did with T3i ETC.....    call the T4i this current generation of apc-s sensor's swan song.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: sandymandy on May 18, 2012, 07:14:06 AM
What is the advantage of crosstype AF points?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on May 18, 2012, 07:45:33 AM
so out with the swivel LCD and in with the touch screen? replacing one gimmick by another :P

Somebody better tell Apple that their iPad is one big touch screen gimmick.  You may not have noticed, but the world is going touch screen, including Windows 8.

One of the reasons I'm not using the Kindle Fire (was given to me as a gift) is the touch screen. As example, it appears whomever designed the device didn't think of people with fingers as big as mine, so I can't type a short URL without fixing it at least three times.

As of Apple, the success of their products is no indication of quality, e.g. the brick with tiny B&W screen sold as a portable computer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macintosh_128k_transparency.png) is a good example. If Apple put it's logo on it, the fanboys would buy petrified dog S____ as a premium air freshener.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Ronnie on May 18, 2012, 08:02:51 AM

Continuous AF in LiveView & Video Recording in 650D is nice.
Now Canon just need to put it into the hopefully coming 7D II together with a new 18MP sensor with better ISO performance,  60fps 1080p movie, CF AND SD with possibility to use Eye-Fi SD, weather sealing.
And this needs off cause one or two Digic %+ processors.
And  possibility to decide the name on the pictures (IMG_9999 is not enough, would like IMG_2011_xxxx or IMG_xxxxxx)
If Canon is going to put in Touch screen, it shoul be OLED, otherwise you can’t read it in the sun shine.
The 7D II must also inherits the autofocus from the 5D III
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: psolberg on May 18, 2012, 08:29:44 AM
18MP again?. Boring.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on May 18, 2012, 08:52:21 AM
18MP again?. Boring.

But sufficient for many uses, esp those of xxxD series owners.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 18, 2012, 09:17:58 AM
Continuous AF in LiveView & Video Recording in 650D is nice.

Just that they have it doesn't say how it performs, it's Canon's first try, but maybe the processing power of the digic5 makes it possible.

18MP again?. Boring.
But sufficient for many uses, esp those of xxxD series owners.

Indeed, and Canon just wouldn't put a sensor into the 650d that can outgun the more expensive aps-c bodies. That's why they called it "650d", there will be a 70d with a sensor upgrade and *then* they'll put into a "700d".
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Lee Jay on May 18, 2012, 09:34:48 AM
I hope they up the pixel count on the 70D/7DII, partly for the lower noise benefits (despite popular belief, smaller pixels yield lower noise overall images with the same detail), and partly for the greater resolving power when focal length limited.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: whatta on May 18, 2012, 09:42:52 AM
well, I would not mind even less than 18 MP, but would certainly prefer a new sensor (not the same as in 7d, 550d, 600d, 60d).

if the rumor is becoming true, it seems finally the AF sys is coming down again after the 30d (into 400d); 40d AF in the 650d then? so the 70d should get the one from the 7d.. and digic 5 of course.

what about the 240fps video in the S100? why is it not in the 5D3 and not rumored for 650d?

I would be interested in integrated wifi though (to share quickly and easily).

oh yes, and a bigger viewfinder would be always welcome.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 18, 2012, 09:50:13 AM
18MP again?. Boring.

I think this summarizes the reason why the MP wars are waged in the consumer crop body space.  Generally, people perceive it is not a better camera unless this number goes up.  for that reason yes it would be boring to enter an updated 18mp camera into a MP war.  My hope is that they introduce a  new sensor and bump up the MPs by some small amount, for example, 21MP (15%) just to maintain excitment, and keep the MP wars where they belong -- in the Rebels.  Higher MPs in such a Rebel, along with a small (or even zero) improvement in ISO/DR, will leave room for further improvments in the same technology life cycle for the 7D2 -- for example, game changing ISO/DR, and 10 fps with Dual Digic 5 and a larger frame buffer.   
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 18, 2012, 09:58:45 AM
I hope they up the pixel count on the 70D/7DII, partly for the lower noise benefits (despite popular belief, smaller pixels yield lower noise overall images with the same detail), and partly for the greater resolving power when focal length limited.

Not if the increase in pixels is overcompensated by the increase in nose, then even say 24mp downsized to the current 18mp will look worse. And what's more mp good for if the dynamic range drops? If you want that, it's time to get a high-mp mobile phone... I would like a moderate increase in mp, too, say 22-24, but not no matter what.

if the rumor is becoming true, it seems finally the AF sys is coming down again after the 30d (into 400d); 40d AF in the 650d then? so the 70d should get the one from the 7d.. and digic 5 of course.

It isn't clear if the 650d will have sensitive af points for f2.8+ like in the 7d & 60d...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Woody on May 18, 2012, 10:13:59 AM
Not if the increase in pixels is overcompensated by the increase in nose, then even say 24mp downsized to the current 18mp will look worse. And what's more mp good for if the dynamic range drops? If you want that, it's time to get a high-mp mobile phone... I would like a moderate increase in mp, too, say 22-24, but not no matter what.

Compare 36 MP D800 to 12 MP D700. There was a massive 2 stop increase in dynamic range and a massive improvement in high ISO performance as well.

It isn't clear if the 650d will have sensitive af points for f2.8+ like in the 7d & 60d...

The current 600D already has the extra-precise AF point in the center for f/2.8 and faster lenses.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: whatta on May 18, 2012, 10:16:05 AM
if the rumor is becoming true, it seems finally the AF sys is coming down again after the 30d (into 400d); 40d AF in the 650d then? so the 70d should get the one from the 7d.. and digic 5 of course.

It isn't clear if the 650d will have sensitive af points for f2.8+ like in the 7d & 60d...

is there difference between 60d af and 40d af? thanks
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 18, 2012, 10:53:34 AM
Compare 36 MP D800 to 12 MP D700. There was a massive 2 stop increase in dynamic range and a massive improvement in high ISO performance as well.

and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 18, 2012, 10:55:36 AM
Compare 36 MP D800 to 12 MP D700. There was a massive 2 stop increase in dynamic range and a massive improvement in high ISO performance as well.

and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

Sounds like another DxO score coming up
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Woody on May 18, 2012, 11:15:35 AM
and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

Are you suggesting there's a guaranteed deterioration in performance just because 36 is bigger than 12?

And no, I won't quote numbers. I'll just quote the text.  ;D

"For equal, normalized SNR, a high-resolution camera is still better than a low-resolution camera. While it is always possible to simulate a low-resolution camera using a higher resolution camera (since downsampling is easy), it is not possible to simulate a high-resolution camera using a lower-resolution camera other than by interpolating or inventing data."
- http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/More-pixels-offset-noise!/Conclusion (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/More-pixels-offset-noise!/Conclusion)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: riiiche on May 18, 2012, 12:24:05 PM
Just a wee thought nobody has brought up.

Over here in the UK the current 600D (or t3i) is being advertised DAILY on the telly as the official sponsor of a wee event called Euro 2012. The tournament kicks off june 8th and finishes July 1st.
Canon might be waiting until the tournament  is over and they have shifted as many 600D's as possible before releasing the 650D.

Im currently thinking on taking the plunge on buying the 600D but I dont know if I should wait or not.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: scokar on May 18, 2012, 12:40:10 PM
18MP again?. Boring.

I know!

Back in the day, every year was one 35mm camera after another.

BUT when that 37mm camera came out -- WOOOO excitement beyond belief!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: tntwit on May 18, 2012, 12:45:46 PM
so out with the swivel LCD and in with the touch screen? replacing one gimmick by another :P

Somebody better tell Apple that their iPad is one big touch screen gimmick.  You may not have noticed, but the world is going touch screen, including Windows 8.

One of the reasons I'm not using the Kindle Fire (was given to me as a gift) is the touch screen. As example, it appears whomever designed the device didn't think of people with fingers as big as mine, so I can't type a short URL without fixing it at least three times.

As of Apple, the success of their products is no indication of quality, e.g. the brick with tiny B&W screen sold as a portable computer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Macintosh_128k_transparency.png) is a good example. If Apple put it's logo on it, the fanboys would buy petrified dog S___ as a premium air freshener.

The Kindle Fire has fewer sensors than other devices which makes it less precise (from what I'm told).  We bought one for my mother in-law and as much as I like it, it is not always as responsive as you would like.  Like anything else, quality varies, but a touch screen doesn't have to be bad and many are not.

Regarding the comment about those with limited vision, my Panasonic has a touch screen, but the buttons are redundant so you are not required to use the screen.  Further, the implementation may be tricky, but there are standards for designing web pages for those with disabilities for use with such things as screen readers.  Maybe this (or something similar) is something other devices should be following as well.  Even without a touch screen, the navigation through the T3i screen would seemingly be difficult if you cannot see it well, but then maybe once your used to it...?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: preppyak on May 18, 2012, 12:46:38 PM
Don't confuse the Nikon D5100 auto-focus, with a Sony auto-focus. My NEX 5n, using face detection, does a good job of keeping a person in focus as they walk around a room, even at f/2.8. If Sony can do this, why not Canon ???
Well, part of it is that they are different technologies. The way a Canon camera autofocuses for pictures is different than how it does in Live View, and video uses the Live View technology. Canon would have to adapt the SLT technology with a translucent mirror to auto-focus in the exact same way a Sony does. In doing so, they'd give up all the photographic advantages of the mirror, which isn't worth it. Basically, the Nikon autofocus sucks because it doesn't use the focus sensor (due to the mirror being up). I doubt Canon will have solved this in a way that makes it comparable with what sony has in their SLT's, let alone what the FS-700 has.

The FS-700's AF is impressive (though he admitted it makes mistakes that he doesn't show), but, it's also technology from a $10k plus camera...I don't expect Canon to implement that in their Rebel line and have skipped the 5DIII with it.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: whatta on May 18, 2012, 12:56:15 PM
18MP again?. Boring.

I know!

Back in the day, every year was one 35mm camera after another.

BUT when that 37mm camera came out -- WOOOO excitement beyond belief!

here we're talking about resolution, and not about size  ;)
back then you could increase the resolution for the same camera with a better film (eg low iso)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 18, 2012, 01:11:47 PM
and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

Are you suggesting there's a guaranteed deterioration in performance just because 36 is bigger than 12?

And no, I won't quote numbers. I'll just quote the text.  ;D

"For equal, normalized SNR, a high-resolution camera is still better than a low-resolution camera. While it is always possible to simulate a low-resolution camera using a higher resolution camera (since downsampling is easy), it is not possible to simulate a high-resolution camera using a lower-resolution camera other than by interpolating or inventing data."
- http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/More-pixels-offset-noise!/Conclusion (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/More-pixels-offset-noise!/Conclusion)

and the D800 and D700 are equal in  normalized SNR?   
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Lee Jay on May 18, 2012, 01:55:54 PM
Compare 36 MP D800 to 12 MP D700. There was a massive 2 stop increase in dynamic range and a massive improvement in high ISO performance as well.

and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

A good bit of it is, yes.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: BXL on May 18, 2012, 02:02:28 PM
Indeed, and Canon just wouldn't put a sensor into the 650d that can outgun the more expensive aps-c bodies. That's why they called it "650d", there will be a 70d with a sensor upgrade and *then* they'll put into a "700d".
Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 18, 2012, 02:16:57 PM
]
Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.

I know - but the 18mp sensor has been around for so long, when Canon updates it it's not just another day in the office, thus they'll save it to make some money with it - people will or won't buy the 650d no matter what sensor is in it. The real competition is Nikon, and Canon cannot go to 24mp - so why rock the boat? Another problem with a better sensor in the 650d is that it would cannibalize the 60d which is feature-cut in comparison to the 40d and 50d you cited.

Unlike the 40d/50d days, Canon's problem seems to be that with their current sensor tech, their aps-c design has reached some ceiling with 18mp. If they increase the mp count they'll have to trade it for more noise and less dr even more than 40d->50d. And if they keep it at 18mp the improvement might be as minor as 5d2->5d3.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 18, 2012, 03:01:10 PM

Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP).


Funniest comment of the night ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: preppyak on May 18, 2012, 03:54:40 PM
The real competition is Nikon, and Canon cannot go to 24mp - so why rock the boat? Another problem with a better sensor in the 650d is that it would cannibalize the 60d which is feature-cut in comparison to the 40d and 50d you cited.
Which is why they'll release a 70D sometime in the early fall with some upgrades to counter that.

There's still be reasons to get the 60D over the T4i (ergonomics, burst rate, button layout, etc)...they'd be the same as the T3i really, with the exception of the auto-focus.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 18, 2012, 05:08:38 PM
Indeed, and Canon just wouldn't put a sensor into the 650d that can outgun the more expensive aps-c bodies. That's why they called it "650d", there will be a 70d with a sensor upgrade and *then* they'll put into a "700d".
Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.

I'm sure you meant 40D=10, and I like you're reasoning -- whether or not Canon does is another matter, to be sure :D  Surely,  the 650D sensor will give us the first clue as to what is actually going on in 1.6x land.  If there is no new sensor, then its clear that they are sqeezing out whatever additional blood is left in that turnip, and 7D2/XXD should get new ones.  7D was, after all, the first to get the18mp sensor, which subsequently appeared in the 550D and then the 60D.  If you review the history, you find there is no rhyme nor reason to which sensors appear in which product lines first. Well -- except that Canon wants to get a lot of life out of the 18MP :D

I note that the Rebel has already been through two cycles with the same sensor (both 550 and 600), so to me it would be unusual to see a third Rebel refresh with the same sensor -- especially since the Rebels were the last to get this one anyway, and since it is already 3 years old. I get that the Tsunami set things back a ways, but 3 years is a long time especially in Rebel land. 

Moreover, it would not be unusual for a new sensor to appear in the Rebel first without first seeing XXD time:  the 10.1MP sensor of the 40D first appeared in the 400D.   So in that sense, the Rebels can be seen seen as a proving ground for new sensors. 

Conversely, it would not be unusual for a new sensor to appear only in the Rebels --  Witness the  450D, at 12MP which was never seen in the xxD line  -- XXD went from 8 (30D) to 10 (40D) to 15 (50D).   This was a period of time when the MP wars were very hot:  The 12MP sensor didn't last very long even in the Rebels, as the the 450D was replaced with the 15MP sensor of the 500D and subequently the 18MP appeared in the 550D

So to me the rapid pace of the MP wars explains a lot that was happening prior to the Tsunami. Post-Tsunami, we ma have some technology maturity and we have recovery from the Tsunami, which is only 14 months old.  Sony has certainly signaled their intentions, and Canon will have to follow suit with somethign that grabs attention -- I'd venture to suggest a new APS-C sensor in the Rebel 650D, and because Rebel land is a MP war zone, I think they will bump things up, if only slightly, and even with little or no improvement in ISO/DR  beyond software. 

of course, this opinion is worth what you paid to read it, and we'll have to wait and see :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 18, 2012, 06:30:56 PM
There's still be reasons to get the 60D over the T4i (ergonomics, burst rate, button layout, etc)...they'd be the same as the T3i really, with the exception of the auto-focus.

I've got the 60d and am the first one to say it's a nice aps-c body which sadly lacks afma (thanks, Canon!) but runs magic lantern. But if the 650d would have an upgraded sensor the less expensive body would have better iq and less people will be convinced the better ergonomics of the 60d are important enough to justify the price difference.

I'd venture to suggest a new APS-C sensor in the Rebel 650D, and because Rebel land is a MP war zone, I think they will bump things up, if only slightly, and even with little or no improvement in ISO/DR  beyond software.

... you're saying his in spite of the different [cr2.5] rumor - courageous :-p

Moreover, it would not be unusual for a new sensor to appear in the Rebel first without first seeing XXD time:  the 10.1MP sensor of the 40D first appeared in the 400D.   So in that sense, the Rebels can be seen seen as a proving ground for new sensors. 

Again, this was a different time when there was more potential left in Canon's aps-c tech for frequent sensor updates and they had less aps-c bodies that could cannibalize each other...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: c.d.embrey on May 18, 2012, 06:43:34 PM
Well, part of it is that they are different technologies. The way a Canon camera autofocuses for pictures is different than how it does in Live View, and video uses the Live View technology. Canon would have to adapt the SLT technology with a translucent mirror to auto-focus in the exact same way a Sony does. In doing so, they'd give up all the photographic advantages of the mirror, which isn't worth it. Basically, the Nikon autofocus sucks because it doesn't use the focus sensor (due to the mirror being up). I doubt Canon will have solved this in a way that makes it comparable with what sony has in their SLT's, let alone what the FS-700 has.

Sorry to tell you, but the NEX 5n does NOT use SLT technology. NO SLT, NO phase detect sensors being built into the imaging sensor like a Nikon J1/V1. The Sony NEX 5n doesn't use any form of phase detect for focusing, none, zip nada.

The NEX 5n uses contrast detect auto-focus, just like the quick focusing Olympus cameras. If Sony, Olympus and Panasonic can build good contrast detect auto-focus, why do you feel that Canon is so incompetent that they couldn't ???
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 18, 2012, 08:01:49 PM

... you're saying his in spite of the different [cr2.5] rumor - courageous :-p

bzzzt!  total brain fart thank-you for bringing reality back.  I still hope its a new sensor ... and do suggest it would be courageous for Canon to introduce a third generation Rebel with the same sensor, and at some level still interest me how an 18 mp sensor (new or not) says about the MP wars
Quote


Again, this was a different time when there was more potential left in Canon's aps-c tech for frequent sensor updates and they had less aps-c bodies that could cannibalize each other...

yea I mentioned that.. pre-tsunami days saw a lot of activity and lots of leap frogging.  the point is that there is no historical basis for predicting what Canon will do here in terms of how/when Rebel sensors are introduced relative to xxd. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Lee Jay on May 18, 2012, 08:13:18 PM
The NEX 5n uses contrast detect auto-focus, just like the quick focusing Olympus cameras. If Sony, Olympus and Panasonic can build good contrast detect auto-focus, why do you feel that Canon is so incompetent that they couldn't ???

"Good contrast detect auto-focus" is like "tasty raw herring".  While some might taste better than others, they all still take like dog doo.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 18, 2012, 10:23:28 PM
The difference in IQ from the 36MP D800 to the 12MP D700 completely debunks the widely held belief that increasing the MP of a camera must result in lower IQ.

No, the iq-mp correlation is of course "ceteris paribus" as all sane comparisons are.

If you update the sensor tech itsself like Nikon with Sony's exmor, then big leaps are possible as long as the lens delivers the resolution, the latter being more problematic on aps-c. But Canon being stuck with their own tech, it seems only small increases in mp are possible without beginning to loose on the dr or noise side.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: stevenrrmanir on May 19, 2012, 12:04:48 AM
Indeed, and Canon just wouldn't put a sensor into the 650d that can outgun the more expensive aps-c bodies. That's why they called it "650d", there will be a 70d with a sensor upgrade and *then* they'll put into a "700d".
Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.

BS dude! The 40D is a 10MP body.  The 40D is 10x the better camera for image quality (IQ) than the 450D. I have used both. The 450D is inferior to the 40D in every perspective!

The 650D is a FAIL if the specs are correct! Is this Canon's definition of an "upgrade" looks like? I hope they go the Sony way... they are dragging their feet! I hope Nikon kicks their asses!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 19, 2012, 12:56:17 AM
and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

Are you suggesting there's a guaranteed deterioration in performance just because 36 is bigger than 12?


The difference in IQ from the 36MP D800 to the 12MP D700 completely debunks the widely held belief that increasing the MP of a camera must result in lower IQ.

I think the 5DII and 1DS3 put that belief to bed 5 years ago
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Woody on May 19, 2012, 02:23:07 AM
Nikon have (fast) phase detect autofocus working with their mirrorless 1-series cameras.
Canon should be aiming to do the same!

Except that Nikon's phase detect AF works only in very good light. Under slightly lower conditions, they have to fall back on contrast AF which completely falls apart for Nikon:

"The J1 and V1's contrast-detection AF systems, which take over when light levels are too low for effective phase-detection AF (and remember that this is the camera's decision, not the photographer's) are less impressive. Focussing is less positive (AF wobbles quickly around the target rather than locking straight on it) but impressively accurate when it gets a 'lock'. The problem is that even in average interior room light, both cameras struggle to find that lock."
- http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikonv1j1/8 (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikonv1j1/8)

I'll rather have fast and accurate contrast AF all the way.

I am surprised no one ever comments on live view contrast AF in the Canon 5D3. It rocks, it really does! Under VERY low light conditions (f/1.4, 1/40 sec, ISO 25,600), it can lock focus while phase detect hunts and hunts and gives up. In good light, it's VERY fast. A serious step-up from previous Canon contrast AF technology.

If the same contrast AF is implemented in Canon's mirrorless cameras, they'll have a winner on their hands.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Woody on May 19, 2012, 02:33:19 AM
BS dude! The 40D is a 10MP body.  The 40D is 10x the better camera for image quality (IQ) than the 450D. I have used both.

Obviously, you must either be lying to others or trying to deceive yourself.

From http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-Rebel-XSi-450D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx: (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-Rebel-XSi-450D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx:)

"The EOS 40D and the XSi are very close to each other - even though the XSi has a more pixels packed into the same surface area of sensor."

From http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos450d/34: (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos450d/34:)

"The new sensor is superb, and from a resolution point of view puts the EOS 40D to shame without losing any of the high ISO performance that has been Canon's Me_Me_Me card for so long."

Essentially a tie from DXOMark:
Canon 450D low light ISO = 692
Canon 40D low light ISO = 703

Suggest you get your facts right before posting next time
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 19, 2012, 03:18:33 AM
BS dude! The 40D is a 10MP body.  The 40D is 10x the better camera for image quality (IQ) than the 450D. I have used both.

Obviously, you must either be lying to others or trying to deceive yourself.

From http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-Rebel-XSi-450D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx: (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-Rebel-XSi-450D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx:)

"The EOS 40D and the XSi are very close to each other - even though the XSi has a more pixels packed into the same surface area of sensor."

From http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos450d/34: (http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos450d/34:)

"The new sensor is superb, and from a resolution point of view puts the EOS 40D to shame without losing any of the high ISO performance that has been Canon's Me_Me_Me card for so long."

Essentially a tie from DXOMark:
Canon 450D low light ISO = 692
Canon 40D low light ISO = 703

Suggest you get your facts right before posting next time

It is not all about low light IQ

DxO scores have lost all credibility, so quoting them is pretty meaningless.

From one that was there - the 450D was not as good a camera as the 40D

Bit like comparing the 600D with the 7D - you just wouldn't go sports shooting with the 600D

Just think that the 40D has more fps than the 5DIII and the low ISO IQ was excellent - would be interesting to compare the RAW files for noise
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Woody on May 19, 2012, 03:50:10 AM
DxO scores have lost all credibility, so quoting them is pretty meaningless.

From one that was there - the 450D was not as good a camera as the 40D

Bit like comparing the 600D with the 7D - you just wouldn't go sports shooting with the 600D

I agree with everything you say. But stevenrrmanir insisted the 450D has 10x poorer image quality than 40D, and that is simply not true. :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: !Xabbu on May 19, 2012, 08:23:38 AM
DxO scores have lost all credibility, so quoting them is pretty meaningless.

From one that was there - the 450D was not as good a camera as the 40D

Bit like comparing the 600D with the 7D - you just wouldn't go sports shooting with the 600D

I agree with everything you say. But stevenrrmanir insisted the 450D has 10x poorer image quality than 40D, and that is simply not true. :)

+1 - the 450D has pretty impressive IQ and is definitely not a generation behind the 40D (or whatever 10x poorer means)...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: c3hammer on May 19, 2012, 11:32:01 AM
I use a T3i for both wildlife stills and video. 

If the T4i 9 point auto focus is anything close the 7D, the moire and aliasing in video gone like the 5d3 and it has resonable tracking focus with touch screen selectable points like many of the camcorders it will be an incredible upgrade in the sub $1000 price point.

With the 3x crop zoom in video mode, the T3i is one of the best wildlife cameras ever made.  A 70-200mm becomes a 960mm.  A 600mm becomes a 2880mm.  There's never been anything like it.  Anyone who says the IQ is not very good with the 3x zoom has never used it with a high end lens.

The only cam that even comes close is the panny GH2 and it falls down in so many other ways, particularly stills and highlight rendition, that it's not in the same league as an all arounder.

Really looking forward to seeing how this one comes out!

Cheers,
Pete
http://vimeo.com/user3461281 (http://vimeo.com/user3461281)
http://www.youtube.com/user/c3hammer (http://www.youtube.com/user/c3hammer)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 19, 2012, 05:23:22 PM
I use a T3i for both wildlife stills and video. 

If the T4i 9 point auto focus is anything close the 7D, the moire and aliasing in video gone like the 5d3 and it has resonable tracking focus with touch screen selectable points like many of the camcorders it will be an incredible upgrade in the sub $1000 price point.

With the 3x crop zoom in video mode, the T3i is one of the best wildlife cameras ever made.  A 70-200mm becomes a 960mm.  A 600mm becomes a 2880mm.  There's never been anything like it.  Anyone who says the IQ is not very good with the 3x zoom has never used it with a high end lens.

The only cam that even comes close is the panny GH2 and it falls down in so many other ways, particularly stills and highlight rendition, that it's not in the same league as an all arounder.

Really looking forward to seeing how this one comes out!

Cheers,
Pete
http://vimeo.com/user3461281 (http://vimeo.com/user3461281)
http://www.youtube.com/user/c3hammer (http://www.youtube.com/user/c3hammer)

This gets my vote for the best humour of the evening  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: rubidium on May 19, 2012, 10:08:56 PM
June announcement = July shipping?

Just in time for tax return purchasing!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: D_Rochat on May 19, 2012, 11:30:35 PM
June announcement = July shipping?

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on May 20, 2012, 05:02:46 AM
June announcement = July shipping?

Considering Canon's track of late, I'm sure it would ship by July, just not this year...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 20, 2012, 05:14:00 AM
Considering Canon's track of late, I'm sure it would ship by July, just not this year...

:-) On the other hand, except for the touchscreen it's no milestone, but just an upgraded 600d with a faster cpu which enables video af. So except for the touchscreen, Canon should have no problem actually shipping it. And the touchscreen rumors were around for ~2 years, so ample time for Canon to get it working.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: koolman on May 20, 2012, 05:36:45 AM
As a rebel t2i user - I can say that contrary to the sarcasm in some of the posts in this thread, which imply the rebel to be no more then a "toy" I can say, that in my experience, from an IQ point of view, the 18mp "group" t2i, 7d, 60d, t3i - all produce the same jpg's - you would really need to nit pick to find a difference.

Sure the more advanced bodies have many advantages, and the rebel series might be a "toy" as far as build, AF, durability, etc. But for an amateur like me - who shoots for pleasure - its an awesome product in an affordable package.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 20, 2012, 05:50:41 AM
As a rebel t2i user - I can say that contrary to the sarcasm in some of the posts in this thread, which imply the rebel to be no more then a "toy"

I don't think many people really consider it to be a toy, only maybe some very well-off amateurs that are frustrated that they aren't able to get decent pictures out of their high-end stuff. If you've got time and are on a budget, the net is full of excellent shots and videos (magic lantern!) taken on the Rebels.

The only thing that makes the xxxd bodies "toy-ish" and why I got the 60d is that switching settings takes time and is more like using a mobile phone, I have to think of the touchscreen of the 650d... but if you can work around that, there's no problem. And the xxxd are full-fledged dlsrs and way better than any other "real toy" compacts.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: JurijTurnsek on May 20, 2012, 06:12:39 AM
Anyone else interested if 650d will support wireless controlling of 600ex-rt?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 20, 2012, 06:25:11 AM
Anyone else interested if 650d will support wireless controlling of 600ex-rt?

If you'd have to control anything, it'll be the upcoming slave-only 440rt. But at this point in time, Canon expects you to buy their radio controller or the 600rt as a master, they're not a welfare company, you know :-) ... and putting it inside a xxxd body would raise to cost too much. Apart from the fact that it might be tricky to get radio controller inside the body at all, that is - the infrared controller is basically a free gimmick on top of the built-in flash.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 20, 2012, 06:27:56 AM
Anyone else interested if 650d will support wireless controlling of 600ex-rt?

I am much more interested in the full time AF for video
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: JurijTurnsek on May 20, 2012, 06:52:44 AM
What about in-camera menus when using the transmitter? That would just be firmware upgrade.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: zaphod on May 20, 2012, 07:11:46 AM
New on this forum and really enjoy all comments on most of the rumours.  I just have to say that I'm looking forward to this body. I have kept my two favourite lenses (24 - 70 2.8L, and 16-35 2.8L) since I sold my 50d a couple of eyers ago, and focused on other stuff. But now I feel it's time to get back to photography. And, of course, there is a bunch of 5d mkII on the second hand market now, but I have to remind myself that I'm a amateur photographer, and a 650d would be just enough for my needs.

Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 20, 2012, 07:28:09 AM
And, of course, there is a bunch of 5d mkII on the second hand market now, but I have to remind myself that I'm a amateur photographer, and a 650d would be just enough for my needs.

Coming from the 50d, even as an somehow advanced amateur (so am I atm) maybe you'll find that the xxxd bodies lack the ability to quickly change settings, so you might still be better off with a 60d which has dropped in price quite a lot since it was introduced. And I hope your f2.8 lenses don't need af micro adjustment, because the xxxd and 60d don't have it...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 20, 2012, 09:11:13 AM
but I have to remind myself that I'm a amateur photographer, and a 650d would be just enough for my needs.

Because you are amateur it means there is no professional consideraions to consider when purchasing kit.

I am an amateur too - making do is not an issue for me
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: zaphod on May 20, 2012, 09:57:29 AM
And, of course, there is a bunch of 5d mkII on the second hand market now, but I have to remind myself that I'm a amateur photographer, and a 650d would be just enough for my needs.

[...] And I hope your f2.8 lenses don't need af micro adjustment, because the xxxd and 60d don't have it...


Yes, that's a good point. For what I know the lenses don't need micro adjustment, I think I did some tests back in 2008. And a deal breaker for me is almost always the small size of the xxxD bodies. But I thought this was the right place to be talked into what i "really" need. ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 20, 2012, 10:12:50 AM
But I thought this was the right place to be talked into what i "really" need. ;)

Well, you're coming from a rather good body (50d) so your main decision will be if you can live with a (temporal) downgrade to make up your mind if you'll get into photography again. Getting an ok body like 60d and up shouldn't cost you much because you can sell it later on if you decide so. You lenses actually want to be used on a full frame body (5d) because they are known to have not so great image quality on crop bodies, and esp. your wide-angle lens is wasted on crop because it isn't wide anymore and there are cheaper and better ef-s lenses.

But the usability of the xxxd line is really made only to appeal to people who never used anything but, personally I'd have a nervous breakdown and a cramp in the hand after using the small rebels for some time. And the viewfinder and such is even worse than the other Canon crop bodies so it's no fun either :-o

But if you really want more detailed advice, maybe start another topic and tell us more about what you're going to shoot etc.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: roger1 on May 20, 2012, 04:31:02 PM
I have a dilemma.
I own the original 300D Rebel and would like to upgrade before my big Hawaii trip come July 10th.
Been thinking about getting a T3i but I'd really hate to buy last year's model if the T4i is coming out in the next couple of weeks.

I know it's going to cost me significantly more to get a T4i as they won't be discounted at all right at first.
I can get a new T3i body for right about $490 with that $400 off combo rebate deal they have with a printer (I'd sell the printer on eBay) and I figure a T4i body only is probably going to be around $750.
I' still go for a T4i if I have time but I wish I knew if it were going be in time right now.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: realneyc on May 21, 2012, 05:33:12 PM
I'm looking forwards to an updated sensor too, but since t2i, t3i, 60D, 7D all have the same sensor, it would be really awkward to have a better sensor in t4i before they update 60D and 7D....like someone said before, they want the customers to move to higher end...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: RLPhoto on May 21, 2012, 05:36:06 PM
Canon has made 2 new full frame sensors.

Canon I assume will make 2 New Crop sensors as well.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 21, 2012, 06:15:34 PM
I'm looking forwards to an updated sensor too, but since t2i, t3i, 60D, 7D all have the same sensor, it would be really awkward to have a better sensor in t4i before they update 60D and 7D....like someone said before, they want the customers to move to higher end...

Canon has shown us in the past that they are willing to use the Rebels to showcase a new sensor, I presume to prove it in the field first, and fine tune the mfg process perhaps.  REcent history of the XXD versus the Rebels, in fact, shows that it is more comon for the Rebels to "lead".  Examples;  While the 30D body was resting on its 8MP laurals, the 400D Rebel appeared with its 10MP sensor, and it wasnt for another year that this 10MP sensor  appeared in the 40D.  But soon after 40D appeared with 10MP, Canon promptly introduced the 450D Rebel with a 12MP sensor 6 months later, and this "lead" remaind for another nine months,  until the 50 was introduced with 15MP. 

The 50D briefly lead the 15MP sensor wars for about 3 months before the Rebel 500D followed suit, but then Canon Releaed the 7D shortly thereafter with the 18MP sensor which trickled down, you guessed it, to the Rebel 550D first, and this "lead" (over the XXD)  continued for 6 months before 18MP appeared in the 60D.

so it would not surprise me at all to see a new sensor appear in the T4i.  maybe it will be 18.4 or something "ish"  that can still be called "18MP" but still signal a new sensor :D

Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 21, 2012, 06:50:51 PM
maybe it will be 18.4 or something "ish"  that can still be called "18MP" but still signal a new sensor :D

I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 21, 2012, 07:22:00 PM
maybe it will be 18.4 or something "ish"  that can still be called "18MP" but still signal a new sensor :D

I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

I hear you.  this is one of the most confusing aspects of this discussion.  the site owner here calls it a CR2.5 level rumor, which says information suspected with some credibiltiy at this point is that the sensor is stil 18MP.  ok I get that this information is more trustworthy than my opinion.   but still it would be courageous for Canon to update a MP-war camera with no incremental salvo.  If it truly does come in at 18-ish MP, yes I agree with your assessment that they will call it something attractive.  Its just that if we believe the CR2.5 we have to agree that 18MP is it, no matter how much it would surprise me to see it. 

maybe the MP wars are over and entry level DSLR buyers are suddenly more educated and will see value in a new 18MP sensor that will take better pictures!   :o
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 21, 2012, 07:38:54 PM
Its just that if we believe the CR2.5 we have to agree that 18MP is it

I'm reading this site for 1.5 years now, I can say that even a [CR3] isn't really trustworthy and just a rumor, let alone anything else [CRx]. And in this case the site owner even wrote he's not sure about the sensor - so atm, imho your guess is as good as mine or cr's.

Canon is very secretive about their releases and follow in Apple's footsteps but without giving some gimmick information to friendly sites once in a while - so this site is the dark, too.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 21, 2012, 08:03:54 PM
Its just that if we believe the CR2.5 we have to agree that 18MP is it

I'm reading this site for 1.5 years now, I can say that even a [CR3] isn't really trustworthy and just a rumor, let alone anything else [CRx]. And in this case the site owner even wrote he's not sure about the sensor - so atm, imho your guess is as good as mine or cr's.

Canon is very secretive about their releases and follow in Apple's footsteps but without giving some gimmick information to friendly sites once in a while - so this site is the dark, too.

well he wrote that he's not sure if the 18MP sensor is a new one or not.  But yea that aside you make a good point, and I'm surprised the owner didn't editorialize and comment on the what it might mean to make no advance in the MP wars, keeping 18MP.  Accordingly, I suggest (1)  it would be courageous of Canon to update the Rebel and NOT update the 3 year old sensor.  That would be rather boring, as others have pointed out.  (2) if the sensor is new, it would be courageous of Canon to keep the MP at 18MP, in a camera on the front lines of the MP wars.  THAT would be boring too, but very intriguing to be sure!

this Rebel intro should give us a whole new set of clues into the rest of the 1.6x bodies! 

Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: neuroanatomist on May 21, 2012, 08:17:21 PM
I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

Not unprecedented.  The T3i/600D and T2i/550D have the same MP count, as do the 30D and 20D.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 22, 2012, 06:00:29 AM
Not unprecedented.  The T3i/600D and T2i/550D have the same MP count, as do the 30D and 20D.

But at least the 600d/650d have the exact same sensor, too, not just the same mp count. To shape internal product differences, if Canon bites the bullet and upgrades the sensor itsself meaning new production lines they might be inclined to add a recognizable number to it. That's for "internal" competition and upgrade users, we don't know how many people upgrade from xxxd to xxxd+1 or xxxd+2.

(2) if the sensor is new, it would be courageous of Canon to keep the MP at 18MP, in a camera on the front lines of the MP wars.  THAT would be boring too, but very intriguing to be sure!

On the other hand, maybe they figure that for "external" competition with 24mp Nikon, since they cannot win they'd better not enter the race at all. And market it as their own "18mp is enough" decision because of noise and dr levels...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 22, 2012, 09:56:47 AM
I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

Not unprecedented.  The T3i/600D and T2i/550D have the same MP count, as do the 30D and 20D.

right.  Moreover, the above example also have the same production sensor.   As for historical precident, the Rebels tyically "lead" the XXD in the introduction of new sensors.  For example, while the 30D was resting on its 8MP laurals, Canon introduced the 10MP Sensor to the Rebel, and this "lead" remained for about a year before the 40 got it -- but then Canon introduced the 12MP sensor to the Rebel to "regain the lead".  The notable excption to this "Rebel leads" practice is that for about 6 months, the 50D did "lead" with 15MP but then the 7D intro'd with the 18MP sensor and this trickeled down to, you guessed it, the Rebel -- before the 60D got it.

my conclusion is that Canon uses the Rebels as proving ground for new sensors and turns over this product line more rapidly, due to market pressure and the entry level customer requiring rapid refresh cycles. 

What is unusual this time is that we have already 2 Rebel generations with the same sensor which itself is 3 years old (because 7D got it first).   In my opinion, it would be unusual  to introduce a third Rebel update with the same sensor and it is unusual for a 1.6x sensor to last that long in the first place.  Yes, the rapid,  MP-war driven  pace at which sensors were introduced has calmed down, but my observation is that the Rebel life cycle is still designed to be short, compared to other bodies.

so - just from historical extrapolation the weight of evidence suggests a new sensor in the Rebel.  the CR sources are likely more reliable than my opinion, so I remain confused as to why Canon would intro this one without being able to market some progress re:  the sensor. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 22, 2012, 01:10:49 PM
On the other hand, maybe they figure that for "external" competition with 24mp Nikon, since they cannot win they'd better not enter the race at all. And market it as their own "18mp is enough" decision because of noise and dr levels...

could be;  that will be interesting to watch, to be sure.  the other vector here is that Rebels represent the customer segment least likely to have a heavy investment in Canon glass, and probably the least loyal.  it is where new or replacement camera buyers go looking for a consumer DSLR and those with a lick of sense will compare the competition, including the labels on the box, signs at Costco, etc,  and the majority of THOSE comparative shoppers are the least likely to understand the trade-offs between pixel density, DR, and noise.  Canon may see it differently of course, but generally speaking, the consumer masses are a fickle bunch, and the spec wars are waged in the arena of public acceptance, not necessarily technical superiority:  Witness the VHS versis Beta market, for those old enough to remember it. 

Maybe that will be an asset to Canon -- If Canon can convince the MP war consumers of some of the downsides to higher pixel density,  then I can see your point .  It will not be an easy road, when Sony is producing sensors that don't have those same tradeoffs :-)  That said I'm hoping Canon has a Me_Me_Me card up its sleeve and can stay competitive, which of course will benefit the Nikon buyers as well. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 22, 2012, 01:48:26 PM
I remain confused as to why Canon would intro this one without being able to market some progress re:  the sensor.

Maybe the 70d and 7d2 are further away than we'd wish, and Canon doesn't want to cannibalize their 60d sales ...

In my opinion, it would be unusual  to introduce a third Rebel update with the same sensor and it is unusual for a 1.6x sensor to last that long in the first place.

... or, as I'm not growing tired of speculating: Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment at the moment.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 22, 2012, 02:06:34 PM
In my opinion, it would be unusual  to introduce a third Rebel update with the same sensor and it is unusual for a 1.6x sensor to last that long in the first place.

... or, as I'm not growing tired of speculating: Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment at the moment.

:D lol well, what a fun show to watch...  if Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment, then you could be right they are just squeezing the last bit of blood out of that turnip by introducing a single Digic-5 Rebel with measureably better IQ than Digic 4. 

But if this were the case, time is running out for Canon to either produce or buy a better sensor!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 22, 2012, 03:18:04 PM
But if this were the case, time is running out for Canon to either produce or buy a better sensor!

It's indeed interesting - and one way out of the dilemma that they cannot compete with Sony's sensor tech nor milk their 18mp for an unlimited amount of time is to introduce an entry full frame body, as it's often speculated.

If time is running out for Canon, it's very slowly: about 2/3 of dslr users I see running around in Berlin are using a Canon Rebel, then 1/3 Nikon and some cheaper Sony, apart from one or two rich 5d amateurs. In the entry segment, Canon is a well-known brand, has its distribution and marketing set up nicely. And in the higher segment, people are stuck to Canon because they've got EF lenses.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Sean on May 23, 2012, 04:19:33 AM
So, I've got a new question for the panel. :P Since we apparently know nothing other than it'll either be a Canon T4i or an apple tree when it comes out, what about value? Specifically, I ask because we currently seem to be expecting an announcement or release sometime- any time in the next month or so.

What are your thoughts on how much prices will shift and over what time frame? (Relatively)

My situation is similar to those pondering an upgrade, however I've never owned a DSLR before. And my overall pocket for investing is small enough to rule out a T4i purchase simply because it'll cost more than the (example) 618.00 dollars USD with which I can currently buy a T3i body new. So somewhat sadly yet fortunate, I at least don't have to worry as much whether it'll have a Digic V. But it does leave me wondering whether to wait, and if so how long, to make a purchase on the T3i.

Other random info: I'll be spending the rest ($450ish) on a specific lens. So it could hurt ones soul to lose anywhere from $50 to $150 just because of hard to nail down release schedules and that life doesn't too often align with them neatly. Thanks for reading. =)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: briansquibb on May 23, 2012, 04:41:56 AM
So, I've got a new question for the panel. :P Since we apparently know nothing other than it'll either be a Canon T4i or an apple tree when it comes out, what about value? Specifically, I ask because we currently seem to be expecting an announcement or release sometime- any time in the next month or so.

What are your thoughts on how much prices will shift and over what time frame? (Relatively)

My situation is similar to those pondering an upgrade, however I've never owned a DSLR before. And my overall pocket for investing is small enough to rule out a T4i purchase simply because it'll cost more than the (example) 618.00 dollars USD with which I can currently buy a T3i body new. So somewhat sadly yet fortunate, I at least don't have to worry as much whether it'll have a Digic V. But it does leave me wondering whether to wait, and if so how long, to make a purchase on the T3i.

Other random info: I'll be spending the rest ($450ish) on a specific lens. So it could hurt ones soul to lose anywhere from $50 to $150 just because of hard to nail down release schedules and that life doesn't too often align with them neatly. Thanks for reading. =)

A refurb/used T3i with better glass might be a prudent approach. That was when you come to upgrade the T3i you will have good glass to put on it.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Sean on May 24, 2012, 01:53:51 AM
A refurb/used T3i with better glass might be a prudent approach. That was when you come to upgrade the T3i you will have good glass to put on it.

True. I haven't precluded that, really. But the idea of the question was to ask how far model prices tend to move upon new releases, since I didn't think that would be entirely off topic. One nice thing I've noticed is that they tend to retain value pretty well. :)

Personally though, I've looked on Canon's eStore and a refurbished body is only about $58 dollars less while they add all but about eight back through tax and Fedex shipping. And Adorama doesn't seem to have any listed at the moment so I couldn't compare theirs and if they do similarly or not. Given that it seems worth the ten'ish dollars to buy new from Newegg, unless I've missed something. I've also heard about the Canon loyalty program, but again I don't have anything to trade in anyway.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: walksinhearts on May 24, 2012, 01:49:34 PM
Have a look here - http://camerapricebuster.co.uk/prod1211.html (http://camerapricebuster.co.uk/prod1211.html) - it's uk price based but it should give a fair indication of how far and how fast prices fall.

A refurb/used T3i with better glass might be a prudent approach. That was when you come to upgrade the T3i you will have good glass to put on it.

True. I haven't precluded that, really. But the idea of the question was to ask how far model prices tend to move upon new releases, since I didn't think that would be entirely off topic. One nice thing I've noticed is that they tend to retain value pretty well. :)

Personally though, I've looked on Canon's eStore and a refurbished body is only about $58 dollars less while they add all but about eight back through tax and Fedex shipping. And Adorama doesn't seem to have any listed at the moment so I couldn't compare theirs and if they do similarly or not. Given that it seems worth the ten'ish dollars to buy new from Newegg, unless I've missed something. I've also heard about the Canon loyalty program, but again I don't have anything to trade in anyway.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: RobS10 on May 28, 2012, 08:54:37 AM
Any updates on a release date? I am shopping for my first DSLR, and like a lot of folks am looking hard at the D5100 vs T3i tradeoffs. According to most reviews and buzz, the Nikon seems to have the better image quality because of it's sensor, as well as some of the in-camera lens correction the Canon doesn't have (CA and lens geometry distortion correction). In playing around with the two, I much prefer the ergonomics of the Canon (and have a Speedlite from my old 3G to make use of)), but of course it's hard to ignore the Nikon's IQ reputation. I tend to buy things and hold onto them for a while, so I hate the idea of upgrading in a year or so (not to mention the expense) if the T4i is about to be released. I'd rather wait and see if Canon makes important updates (without killing what I do like about the camera) but of course would love to have a camera soon with summer upon us.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 28, 2012, 09:00:46 AM
Any updates on a release date? I am shopping for my first DSLR

The 650d most likely won't have a huge iq improvement, it's about features (video af, touchscreen). In any case, if you wait for it you there won't be much summer left to use it... concerning your speedlite you should check if it has the ettl, or you won't have much fun with it either on the newer digital bodies.

And if you're so set on iq, either Nikon or Canon are a wash, because it much more depends on a good lens. Personally, I got the 60d over the d7000 with the better specs because I just like the usability of the Canon better and it runs a hacked firmware (magic lantern) which adds so much more over out of the box Nikon.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: RobS10 on May 28, 2012, 09:14:37 AM

The 650d most likely won't have a huge iq improvement, it's about features (video af, touchscreen). In any case, if you wait for it you there won't be much summer left to use it... concerning your speedlite you should check if it has the ettl, or you won't have much fun with it either on the newer digital bodies.
Not interested in a touchscreen or higher MP count so much., but the video AF addition would be a big plus, and all auto focus points for stills being more like the 60D would be nice. BTW, my Speedlite is a 420EX, which is supposed to be compatible with most features.

And if you're so set on iq, either Nikon or Canon are a wash, because it much more depends on a good lens. Personally, I got the 60d over the d7000 with the better specs because I just like the usability of the Canon better and it runs a hacked firmware (magic lantern) which adds so much more over out of the box Nikon.
That's the tough decision. Because of it's better ergonomics in my hand (more dedicated buttons, familiar menu) I feel like the Canon is more fun to use, and so what if the Nikon has marginally (?) better IQ, but I don't really want to buy both, shoot a bunch of photos and return the one I don't like as many people do (Costco has both models and that great return policy). I did read about ML and forgot what "features" it adds, but sounds like a nice bonus. :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 28, 2012, 09:25:03 AM
I did read about ML and forgot what "features" it adds, but sounds like a nice bonus. :D

As an amateur and buying a body in this class, you shouldn't worry about minor iq differences in the sensor - you are very likely not to notice them. However, you will notice the fact that you get a cramp in your hand if the body doesn't fit it, or that you get a nervous breakdown because you hate the ergonomics.

Magic lantern is *the* killer feature for video and very handy for stills (unlimited automatic bracketing, focus stacking, focus peeking, focus trapping, ...): http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Unified/UserGuide (http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Unified/UserGuide)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: RobS10 on May 28, 2012, 11:48:42 AM
As an amateur and buying a body in this class, you shouldn't worry about minor iq differences in the sensor - you are very likely not to notice them.
Hoping that's the case. Depends on where you read though...some places make it sound a little more pronounced but trying to take them with a grain of salt.
However, you will notice the fact that you get a cramp in your hand if the body doesn't fit it.
I have large hands, so I prefer the Canon.
or that you get a nervous breakdown because you hate the ergonomics.
LOL!!

Magic lantern is *the* killer feature for video and very handy for stills (unlimited automatic bracketing, focus stacking, focus peeking, focus trapping, ...): http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Unified/UserGuide (http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Unified/UserGuide)
I take it ML is pretty stable, and not much risk in "bricking" the body?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 28, 2012, 12:13:01 PM
I take it ML is pretty stable, and not much risk in "bricking" the body?

Canon generally isn't more for big hands than anything other, they distinguish their lineup with this, too. They used to sell $30 exchangeable large grips in the analog days, now you have to get a $300 battery grip or a $3000 larger body. For me, anything smaller than the 60d is an absolute no-go because I don't use a strap.

ML is 99,9% stable, the only thing to remember is when it should hang (didn't happen for a year for me, it was still alpha then) is to take out the battery to cut the power. Nowadays, this might only happen if one of your own scripts hangs - yes, you can write a script yourself (lua language) and then play pong or pacman on your display or do any number of automation things that make more sense. You can uninstall ml anytime, too.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: RobS10 on May 28, 2012, 01:25:18 PM
Canon generally isn't more for big hands than anything other, they distinguish their lineup with this, too. They used to sell $30 exchangeable large grips in the analog days, now you have to get a $300 battery grip or a $3000 larger body. For me, anything smaller than the 60d is an absolute no-go because I don't use a strap.
I didn't notice the Nikon was much smaller, but most reviews seem to think it's perhaps more cramped. Every time I take pictures of the family and have to hunt around to change settings, my wife gets impatient.  I know you get used to whatever you have, but the more direct function buttons, the better. I liked the way the 60d felt too (and especially liked top screen, battery life and burst rate), but trying to keep my budget reasonable. As far as ML, it least it looks like it installs on the card and isn't like fiddling with the camera's internal FW and can be taken off easily...thnaks for the info ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 30, 2012, 08:30:24 PM
... the Nikon seems to have the better image quality because of it's sensor, as well as some of the in-camera lens correction the Canon doesn't have (CA and lens geometry distortion correction). ...

just a thought here, but I dont' look to the camera body to provide lens correction.  To me that belongs in post processing software that can continually update its library and add its own adjustable CA reduction capability.  Lightroom, for example, is very good at this.  Unless there is some key advantage I'm not aware of, I would rather update my PP software than update my camera's firmware to deal with a new lens, for example. 

Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 31, 2012, 03:21:47 AM
Unless there is some key advantage I'm not aware of, I would rather update my PP software than update my camera's firmware to deal with a new lens, for example.

It's convenient when shooting out of the box jpeg - but since there's no way to upload custom (3rd party!!!) lens profiles to the camera, it's no replacement for pp and might even hurt it: If you have vignetting on the lens, the camera raises ev in these zones and you have to lower it in post because the shot was overexposed, you're loosing dynamic resolution. And concerning CA correction, I don't think a in-camera solution can be as effective as Lightroom 4.1.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 31, 2012, 10:45:40 AM
Unless there is some key advantage I'm not aware of, I would rather update my PP software than update my camera's firmware to deal with a new lens, for example.

It's convenient when shooting out of the box jpeg - but since there's no way to upload custom (3rd party!!!) lens profiles to the camera, it's no replacement for pp and might even hurt it: If you have vignetting on the lens, the camera raises ev in these zones and you have to lower it in post because the shot was overexposed, you're loosing dynamic resolution. And concerning CA correction, I don't think a in-camera solution can be as effective as Lightroom 4.1.

right, good catch.  So its only useful for out-of-box jpeg with no post, works only for lenses that the mfg is motivated to include, can't be updated without a firmware flash, and the feature has the potential to damage the final result.  I suspect this is a marketing job to convince buyers that it is good,  but as a practical matter it would only benefit those who use the DSLR as a point-and-shoot and are more likely to stick with the kit lens --  and in these situations the user is less likely to even know or detect the benefit and hard pressed to know if it is working well or not!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: illogict on May 31, 2012, 04:07:10 PM
right, good catch.  So its only useful for out-of-box jpeg with no post, works only for lenses that the mfg is motivated to include, can't be updated without a firmware flash, and the feature has the potential to damage the final result.  I suspect this is a marketing job to convince buyers that it is good,  but as a practical matter it would only benefit those who use the DSLR as a point-and-shoot and are more likely to stick with the kit lens --  and in these situations the user is less likely to even know or detect the benefit and hard pressed to know if it is working well or not!

I do tend to disagree here. I would love my current body to have in-camera CA correction. Why you ask? I don't want to do anything in post but try to get it right when opening the shutter. I'm only a beginner, but I try to learn, and I tend to think that it may be harder but is more rewarding, even though I know that a little bit of post could do wonders.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 31, 2012, 06:03:36 PM
Why you ask? I don't want to do anything in post but try to get it right when opening the shutter.

Your mileage may vary, but from my limited experience the most important thing to learn in digital photography is to know what you have to do when shooting and what you can correct in post with what amount of work. Once you have figured that out, you can concentrate only the things that matter while shooting, reducing complexity and improving results. Imho wanting to get it right with a press of a button sounds like asking for disaster.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]
Post by: dlleno on May 31, 2012, 06:37:03 PM
right, good catch.  So its only useful for out-of-box jpeg with no post, works only for lenses that the mfg is motivated to include, can't be updated without a firmware flash, and the feature has the potential to damage the final result.  I suspect this is a marketing job to convince buyers that it is good,  but as a practical matter it would only benefit those who use the DSLR as a point-and-shoot and are more likely to stick with the kit lens --  and in these situations the user is less likely to even know or detect the benefit and hard pressed to know if it is working well or not!

I do tend to disagree here. I would love my current body to have in-camera CA correction. Why you ask? I don't want to do anything in post but try to get it right when opening the shutter. I'm only a beginner, but I try to learn, and I tend to think that it may be harder but is more rewarding, even though I know that a little bit of post could do wonders.

sure I didn't mean to say it has no use at all  I meant to call out that its broadest appeal is likely to occur under situations where it matters least and is most difficult to verify -- meaning a broad set of beginners would not care about the difference, nor would they know whether or not it is working.  But you represent a notable exception to that glittering generalization -- you are a discriminating beginner who wants to submit to the discipline of creating good jpgs with no post processing.  nice approach!  honestly that use case did not occur to me because when I transitioned from film to digital I never did go "without post" -- but my film days brought just the discipline you are submitting yourself to.  I sent many a roll of K64 to 925 Page Mill Road, Palo Alto CA.

this is not to say one can't learn digital photography without first shooting jpg with no post.  but it will definately help you learn,  and allow you to more fully appreciate the flexibility of things like Lightroom when you are ready.

My sense, given your chartered course,  is that you will  soon (6 months) want to move to raw shooting and transition from "shooting for jpg" to "shooting for lightroom" or whatever PP you choose to use.