canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on May 30, 2012, 11:16:38 PM

Title: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Canon Rumors on May 30, 2012, 11:16:38 PM
What’s going on?
I have heard just about everything as to why the Canon EOS-1D X has been delayed for almost 3-4 months. I’ve heard blame being placed on battery approval in Japan, FCC approval in the United States, production issues with certain parts of the camera, serious firmware issues that had to be resolved to name a few. Canon has kept the issues very close to the vest and very few people know the exact reasons.

So?…..
Recently I have been told by a couple of people that the version of the 1DX that has reached select AP and CPS photographers are not in fact production cameras, they are preproduction. Canon felt it was important to have the new camera out for Euro 2012 and the Olympics in London. It’s suggested that the cameras that are in the hands of these photographers will infact have to go back to Canon and will be replaced with the production model whenever they are ready.

That seems strange, no?

If anyone with a 1D X can confirm this, I’d love to hear it.

CRs Take
The above may be untrue, however a 3-4 month delay in this day and age is a pretty unique thing (for anything other than big lenses). It tells me, and others, that something at the hardware level with the camera is being addressed and has required additional R&D and manufacturing considerations. If the issue was something like a battery or FCC approval, I don’t see the harm in just saying that in a press release and getting on with things.

Will the camera hit retailers in June? For the moment I don’t have an answer, I haven’t heard anything from major retailers about availability in a long time.

Food for thought….

cr

Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Dylan777 on May 30, 2012, 11:33:52 PM
I wonder if the new 24-70 mrk II will get delay or not???
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: unfocused on May 30, 2012, 11:38:58 PM
Given the target market, the price and the fact that their reputation in the professional market rides on this camera, is it any wonder that Canon wants to make sure the thing is as close to perfect as possible before releasing it?

I wonder how many pros at the 1Dx level really care about when the new model arrives. They may be too busy earning a living with the IDs and ID IV to even pay attention to when the 1Dx might be hitting the streets. I suspect that Canon knows the people who do care and will be taking care of them.

Still, odd that it would be delayed this long.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: distant.star on May 30, 2012, 11:50:47 PM
.
Isn't this really an episode of The Twilight Zone?

Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: victorwol on May 30, 2012, 11:54:17 PM
Starting to wonder if will ever get out.... May be they are designing a whole new sensor and f8 focus system?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: briansquibb on May 31, 2012, 01:13:15 AM
.
Isn't this really an episode of The Twilight Zone?

I thought "Lost"
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: lonebear on May 31, 2012, 01:14:59 AM
Expecting some big improvement (sensor side specifically?) in the final production model.

With the recent DR hypes, it looks to me that's Canon's best choice in this upgrade cycle if it doesn't want to introduce 1DXN in 6 months.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: briansquibb on May 31, 2012, 01:19:41 AM
Perhaps it takes 8 months to make it 36mps (just joking)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: AG on May 31, 2012, 01:19:51 AM
If they fix the no HDMI mirroring/clean HDMI out issue and maybe bump the camera up to 60fps @ 1080p.

I would consider one of these over a 5DMk3 w/Grip combo for video.

Not likely though.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: cycomachead on May 31, 2012, 01:26:45 AM
I do think that seems like a rather strange thing to have that long of a loaner for the camera - however, if the 1D X is seeing seriously delays, then even having a pre-production model would be great for something like the Olympics. I've seen high ISO from the 1D X, and played with it for 30 minutes, and I can see why Canon wants to get it out as fast as possible, but definitely wants to prevent any possible problems since I think there's still lingering stress after the 1D3 problem...

On the other hand, while the 1D X felt ready, would you really want to trust a pre-pro camera with an event as important as the Olympics? (I guess it'd still be a great secondary camera, but I'd be weary of it for my main work.)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: EchoLocation on May 31, 2012, 01:37:29 AM
This is really shining a negative light on Canon. Why was it announced soooo early when it obviously wasn't ready?
I'm a huge Canon fan and own thousands of dollars of their gear but with the recent pricing being significantly higher than the alternative brands on the market and exceedingly long delays in their flagship product, I am really starting to lose confidence in this company.
It's pretty disappointing that we took the Olympics as a "given" date when the 1D series replacements would be available(even a few years ago,) and now, with the Olympics just over a month away there is no guaranteed announce coming.
I'm starting to think there is either some major hardware issues, or the that camera would just get trounced upon by the D800 and could not be released in its announced form.
This is way more drama than a flagship product should have pre release.  If this thing isn't out fast and working excellent, I think Canon will have seriously tarnished the image of this product
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: helpful on May 31, 2012, 01:38:03 AM
It appears clear to me that they are redesigning several things in a significant way to make sure that this camera kills the Nikon D4, not only in the majority of features as it already does, but in the unimportant details like the mathematical formulas for representing the analog signal, i.,e. digital conversion. This controls the dynamic range which everyone is attacking Canon for. I would not be surprised if they do something about it.

There are obvious reasons to buy the 1D X regardless of any possible new features. Its service lifetime cycle is way longer. The 400,000 actuation time line between repairs means that it costs less / is more efficient than the 5D3 with only 150,000 actuations between repairs. $6,800 is less than twice the price of the 5D3, and the 1D X will last many times longer with much less than half as much needed service/repairs.

The 1D X is a much cheaper option for anyone willing to look at it the way an accountant would, plus with every photograph it provides a very significant increase in quality and ability to capture difficult photos.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Martin on May 31, 2012, 02:15:39 AM
to be honest i think that they just realized that the 1dx sensor is poor in comparison to d4...and trying maybe to improve it a bit. Have no idea if such a fast RD is possible but it would be nice for Canon to win in other category than fps only.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: expatinasia on May 31, 2012, 02:17:06 AM
Well that explains why the guy on that other forum that said he had received his and uploaded pictures, but then later deleted his post and the pictures.

If you were to read anything into that then it would possibly suggest that he did not even realise it was a pre-production model.

Still a massive shock considering all the big events that are taking place this year, and not just in the sporting world. Though in reality it does not really matter as everyone covering those events will likely have a 1D Mark IV anyway. Just disapointing.

Maybe they are trying to sort out the AF issue.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: kozakm on May 31, 2012, 03:10:35 AM
I wouldn't call it 8 motnhs delay. At the announcement they told that the camera will be available by the march of 2012. So they are just 2 months late :)

Btw, I have checked exifs of the photos from the last Formula 1 Grand Prix in Monaco and there are a lot of 1D X's there...
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: John Thomas on May 31, 2012, 03:15:12 AM
Yes - the most possible scenario is that their "hardware failure" is called Nikon. :)

However, they must take care at some things:

1.) By improving 1DX to not leave the impression that 5D3 is abandoned.
Abandoned customers will abandon the brand.

Also, it will create a pretty nasty chain reaction which will tarnish even more the Canon's reputation which, truth to be said, isn't at its heights nowadays. Nothing worse than the word of mouth from a burned customer.

2.) Improving 1DX in such small amount of time is a sensible matter. But this has two planes: hardware and software (ok, firmware).

Doable but they must be very careful at a big dark trap which any Canon engineer should know: if they do a mistake in firmware and this is found after the product is in the field, this is easily fixable (the cost is low) but if they do a mistake in hardware and this is found in the field then this can be the final tombstone.

Generally speaking, in this situation, significant improvements in firmware has by far the biggest return of investment and they should give much more importance to this now.

However, I think that they are forced to mess up with the hardware and that's why 1DX is delayed.

0.02c++

JohnTh
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: kozakm on May 31, 2012, 03:16:23 AM
Well that explains why the guy on that other forum that said he had received his and uploaded pictures, but then later deleted his post and the pictures.

That doesn't explain anything :) Because I was allowed to publish photos from preproduction version almost without any restrictions. I probably could even post raw files (at least the document I received didn't make any difference between raw and jpg.)

Few real life samples (converted from RAW in Camera RAW 6.7 RC with default settings):
http://www.martinkozak.com/?p=12170 (http://www.martinkozak.com/?p=12170)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 31, 2012, 03:38:13 AM
Given the target market, the price and the fact that their reputation in the professional market rides on this camera, is it any wonder that Canon wants to make sure the thing is as close to perfect as possible before releasing it?

If they think this, they must be really desperate - engineering is always a compromise between dev time and product lifecycle, thus making "near perfection" an idea for geeks, not for a commercial company. It's much more likely that they found flaws (f8 af?) they couldn't get away with given the competition, so rather than "near perfection" its more like "good enough".

1.) By improving 1DX to not leave the impression that 5D3 is abandoned.
Abandoned customers will abandon the brand.

Are you suggesting that Canon would be well-advised not to put any significant last-minute improvement in the 1dx, because it may make the 5d3 look bad? Geez, this is the way of technology - and Canon will hardly stop development because some 5d3 users are a bit touchy when they hear "Nikon" and could not stand internal Canon competition, too. Didn't tons of 5d3 threads establish that the 5d3 is a great body at any price and nothing else matters, esp. not other alternatives :-o ?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: briansquibb on May 31, 2012, 03:54:50 AM
Perhaps Canon have learnt from Nikon's mistake of early release of the D800 and D4. They have just issued their first firmware upgrade to cure lockups and other issues.

Can you imagine the noise if Canon released the 1DX with those problems. The only hitch with the 5DIII was the non problem of the light leak which was blown out of all proportion.

The D800 issues are real nasty things - I would be sending the D800 back if this happened to me

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11677-12641 (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11677-12641)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: pwp on May 31, 2012, 04:05:52 AM
There are obvious reasons to buy the 1D X regardless of any possible new features. Its service lifetime cycle is way longer. The 400,000 actuation time line between repairs means that it costs less / is more efficient than the 5D3 with only 150,000 actuations between repairs. $6,800 is less than twice the price of the 5D3, and the 1D X will last many times longer with much less than half as much needed service/repairs.

The 1D X is a much cheaper option for anyone willing to look at it the way an accountant would, plus with every photograph it provides a very significant increase in quality and ability to capture difficult photos.

I love your logic. In hindsight it's probably true. I work my bodies hard and I've never worn out a 1-Series going right back to film EOS 1n. I can't say the same for xxD or 5D bodies. What a perfect justification for not cancelling my 1DX pre-order. Thanks! +1

Though I did do a job today with 1D4 & 5D3 and the black focus points on the 5D3 lost shots for me again...I plain lost sight of the selected focus point against a dark subject and missed peak moments. Hopefully the fix for this is part of the 1DX delay.

PW
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: nikkito on May 31, 2012, 04:23:02 AM
Call me crazy, but eventhough it's a new camera, with all this delays and everything, I have the feeling this camera is old!

Maybe it's true what many of you have said here, maybe the replacements of the 1D X is coming before this new/old/inexistent model.  ::)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Viggo on May 31, 2012, 04:41:17 AM
At 12 fps you would run through those 400k actuations at the same time it takes the 5d3 to run through the 150k. And that being said, the less strain on the shutter, the longer it lasts (over what canon guarantees) We've seen the thread were people have put 1 million actuations on a 50d. I'm not worried about running out on the 5d3. Plus, that shutter will be way less expensive to replace.

This is of course a stand alone point. If you HAVE TO HAVE 12 fps for your fast action work, the 5d isn't an option. But for me who have always loved and used 1d's, I couldn't be happier that the X was delayed long enough for me to jump on a 5d3. I LOVE that thing.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Viggo on May 31, 2012, 04:50:44 AM
Call me crazy, but eventhough it's a new camera, with all this delays and everything, I have the feeling this camera is old!


+1 ! If it's only that much better than the 5d3 like we've seen, with obvious better noisehandling, but not much else, and it essentially is what was announced and all this time was just spent fixing what they promised soon to be a year ago, I agree with you. It feels old, we've know what it suppose to do, but can't do it.

I don't invite people to a stuntshow promising I can jump 60 buses on a dirt-bike while I draw the people watching while I'm doing backflips and when people show up I simply say "Oh, but, uhm, I need to practice first, I have never been on a bike like this..."
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: wockawocka on May 31, 2012, 04:56:51 AM
Maybe we'll have red af points and f8 in the revised version.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Viggo on May 31, 2012, 05:16:38 AM
Maybe we'll have red af points and f8 in the revised version.

My money would be on this too.

This is also one of the reasons I think it's feeling old. People already want new features, and frankly, they should have been there already. But I think it's VERY unlikely that they add something of extreme significance. People, including me, are going to be dissapointed to see the entire list of things we're hope to be added, just wiped away, and we are stuck with what we already know about features. So if canon made it right from the start, and announced and produced and it hit the shelfs in january, this would have been a fantastic camera. Now it will be an anti-climax.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: nikkito on May 31, 2012, 05:36:21 AM
Call me crazy, but eventhough it's a new camera, with all this delays and everything, I have the feeling this camera is old!

I don't invite people to a stuntshow promising I can jump 60 buses on a dirt-bike while I draw the people watching while I'm doing backflips and when people show up I simply say "Oh, but, uhm, I need to practice first, I have never been on a bike like this..."

that was a great analogy. apparently Canon does that :P hehe
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: PhilDrinkwater on May 31, 2012, 05:36:35 AM
Call me crazy, but eventhough it's a new camera, with all this delays and everything, I have the feeling this camera is old!


+1 ! If it's only that much better than the 5d3 like we've seen, with obvious better noisehandling, but not much else, and it essentially is what was announced and all this time was just spent fixing what they promised soon to be a year ago, I agree with you. It feels old, we've know what it suppose to do, but can't do it.

I don't invite people to a stuntshow promising I can jump 60 buses on a dirt-bike while I draw the people watching while I'm doing backflips and when people show up I simply say "Oh, but, uhm, I need to practice first, I have never been on a bike like this..."

If I'm honest, the core 1dx market won't care. They just want a tool to do a job. Generally speaking, they don't come on forum sites since they are busy covering the Olympics etc...

If there are delays due to adding new significant features or changing hardware, you can be pretty sure it's due to getting feedback from people who've used them for a while and they have to get this camera right.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Ivar on May 31, 2012, 05:46:04 AM
You sound like any earlier Canon camera has had no FW update. Considering how complex the software has become, a FW update is rather a minor thing. Important is to get the HW right and the product 99% working.

P.S I'm willing to make a bet that the 1Dx gets its FW update as well, absolutely no doubt.

P.P.S Internet unfortunately works that way by making rare things seemingly to affect everybody and often. The reality for the D800 is the same as for the 5D3 - in the real world usage no problems for majority.

Perhaps Canon have learnt from Nikon's mistake of early release of the D800 and D4. They have just issued their first firmware upgrade to cure lockups and other issues.

Can you imagine the noise if Canon released the 1DX with those problems. The only hitch with the 5DIII was the non problem of the light leak which was blown out of all proportion.

The D800 issues are real nasty things - I would be sending the D800 back if this happened to me

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11677-12641 (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-11677-12641)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: sanj on May 31, 2012, 06:16:13 AM
Perhaps their strategy is to make all the impatient photographers buy 5d3. Then come out with a super 1dx and tantalize them to buy 1dx also.
In other words I am hoping the IQ of 1dx is way ahead of 5d3... (Don't pounce on me, I love the IQ of my 5d3 but I also know that 1 series have the best IQ of comparable models.)

In any case my 1dx is on pre order.. life is too short to buy cars...
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Bob Howland on May 31, 2012, 07:18:59 AM
Maybe we'll have red af points and f8 in the revised version.

That would be my guess. More importantly to me, where is the 200-400 lens?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: nikkito on May 31, 2012, 07:24:59 AM
i've hold and tested both cameras and they are in different leagues.

Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: nikkito on May 31, 2012, 07:35:57 AM
the 5d3 is real and the 1dx isn't :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: onlyme on May 31, 2012, 07:43:58 AM
They could delay this till the end of the year, I'm still going to get one.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: FunPhotons on May 31, 2012, 07:46:51 AM
I work in engineering in a similar industry. For such a thing to happen, a 8-12 month delay, something got seriously fuu-d up. Its probably in production or engineering but we'll never know. Marketing or management could have done it too by over promising on features or schedule. It's probably a number of things rather than a single one. If it was a single problem, those usually call for a one shot delay, say of a month. This long of a delay is probably due to a series of problems.

Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: expatinasia on May 31, 2012, 07:58:28 AM
I would be expect to hear a lot of noise if they shipped their new flagship with the issues such as black/red AF points etc not resolved. Let's hope that all the issues that are currently known and most that aren't are ironed out before it gets shipped.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: dswatson83 on May 31, 2012, 08:12:01 AM
Based on the time of the delay, this is not a firmware update issue. Something is indeed not performing as desired or there is a manufacturing problem. Canon would not miss the Olympics with a flagship sports camera because of black focus points. Nikon should take advantage of this and launch a major campaign before the Olympics. The Nikon D4 is a monster compared to the 1D mark IV. I'm a bit worried because so much of the 5DIII seems to be taken from the 1DX parts bin. I can't figure out what would affect the 1Dx so badly that wouldn't also affect the 5DIII.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: pwp on May 31, 2012, 09:06:35 AM
I work in engineering in a similar industry. For such a thing to happen, a 8-12 month delay, something got seriously fuu-d up.

It's certainly several months since the camera was announced, but the release date was always put there as March/April 2012. So really that's a couple of months. (So far!) I'd prefer they withheld the release until it's 100% right, even if it's post-Olympics. This camera can't be an anticlimax from Canon...it has to be an absolute killer. I'm enjoying most things about the 5D3, but just can't bring myself to cancel the 1DX pre-order.

PW
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: NormanBates on May 31, 2012, 09:14:34 AM
Dear Canon: if cameras are not in photographers' hands for Euro Cup and Olympics... epic fail
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Tan on May 31, 2012, 09:17:34 AM
In real life I guess the target group for this camera really don't care too much for an effective delay of couple of months. But still... *If* Canon misses to release the 1DX in time for the olympics then I'd say they have some serious operational problems. Nikon and Sony will hardly wait to exploit this...
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: simonxu11 on May 31, 2012, 09:26:45 AM
What I heard is the reflex mirror problem because of the 14fps continious shoot
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Dylan777 on May 31, 2012, 09:32:57 AM
How often do you hear people say:

1. "dam it Canon, why did you released the product that is not ready"

                                                    OR 

2. "Why didn't Canon spend more time testing the product before they released it"




Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: PhilDrinkwater on May 31, 2012, 09:39:15 AM
How often do you hear people say:

1. "dam it Canon, why did you released the product that is not ready"

                                                    OR 

2. "Why didn't Canon spend more time testing the product before they released it"

lol too true!
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Dylan777 on May 31, 2012, 09:43:27 AM
Dear Canon: if cameras are not in photographers' hands for Euro Cup and Olympics... epic fail

epic fail is when the 1D X is NOT working properly at Euro Cup and Olympics

Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: wockawocka on May 31, 2012, 10:00:34 AM
How often do you hear people say:

1. "dam it Canon, why did you released the product that is not ready"

                                                    OR 

2. "Why didn't Canon spend more time testing the product before they released it"

Even on release people will still say it. Mainly on DPreview though where all the point and shooters go.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on May 31, 2012, 11:52:22 AM
There probably finding it difficult to prevent people from turning their 1D-X into a 1D-C. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: helpful on May 31, 2012, 12:14:10 PM
For anyone worried that the life of the 1D X won't be longer because it will run through its 400,000 actuations super fast, there is a custom setting that enables one to adjust the shooting speed. This is one feature that I made careful to verify before ordering my 1D X. I would hate to be stuck shooting ONLY at 12 fps or 3 fps. Thankfully, it can be set anywhere in between as well.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Mr Simpleton on May 31, 2012, 12:44:29 PM
Seems like the first cameras are "hand built" and must be returned to Canon! They apparently hope to have production running in time for the Soccer and Olympics, and by handing out "pre-production" units allows the user to get to know the cams.

BTW story goes that one of these pre-production cameras has been stolen from a car in Stockholm, so if you are offered to buy a 1Dx beware  :o

I'm sure we will see a lot of pics coming the next few weeks...

/Simpleton
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Canon Rumors on May 31, 2012, 01:13:42 PM
I updated the post to correct the "8 months" thing. That was an oversight on my part and I thought about it this AM. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Marsu42 on May 31, 2012, 01:31:53 PM
What I heard is the reflex mirror problem because of the 14fps continious shoot

That makes sense and is something they might really have discovered only after the camera was built, while the f8 af and red af points is broken by design. If it's only a long term qc problem, that would be also the reason why they can hand out 1dx bodies now but want to have them back after some time of usage.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: briansquibb on May 31, 2012, 01:32:45 PM
For anyone worried that the life of the 1D X won't be longer because it will run through its 400,000 actuations super fast, there is a custom setting that enables one to adjust the shooting speed. This is one feature that I made careful to verify before ordering my 1D X. I would hate to be stuck shooting ONLY at 12 fps or 3 fps. Thankfully, it can be set anywhere in between as well.

My low speed on the 1D4 is set to 5fps (same as the 1DS3)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: sublime LightWorks on May 31, 2012, 01:48:03 PM
Meantime, here we are on May 31, and still no 5D3 battery grip in hand or firmware update either.

Something is amiss.  I canceled my 1Dx pre-order an hour ago.  After using the 5D3 to shoot the US Nationals Cycling Championships over the weekend, I figured there was no need to be on the bleeding edge nor be in a long line waiting for the 1Dx and not getting one until the late fall as it looks when the 5D3 was holding up pretty well.

So, I'm letting the 1Dx go for now and will re-order one after they have been out for a bit.  Will re-direct funds to the 24-70 L rev 2 and a tilt-shft lens instead.  Circle back to the 1Dx after the dust settles.  The 5D3 and the 7D will be fine for now.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Viggo on May 31, 2012, 02:01:43 PM
For anyone worried that the life of the 1D X won't be longer because it will run through its 400,000 actuations super fast, there is a custom setting that enables one to adjust the shooting speed. This is one feature that I made careful to verify before ordering my 1D X. I would hate to be stuck shooting ONLY at 12 fps or 3 fps. Thankfully, it can be set anywhere in between as well.

My low speed on the 1D4 is set to 5fps (same as the 1DS3)

Yes, pay the double for double framerate and then slow it down... That's like buying a Veyron, and tow it with a Lada to save gas....
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on May 31, 2012, 02:08:53 PM
Its amazing how many think that making a camera is just simple kiddie stuff.  Its complex and difficult, and even small things can have wide reaching effects.
 
Canon wants the camera to be better than the D4, and it likely needs more work to get there.  I have not put one on order, I'll wait and see first, so its not a issue to me.
 
Still, I think that some new management is in order, just like Nikon did a few years back.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: nikkito on May 31, 2012, 02:11:01 PM
For anyone worried that the life of the 1D X won't be longer because it will run through its 400,000 actuations super fast, there is a custom setting that enables one to adjust the shooting speed. This is one feature that I made careful to verify before ordering my 1D X. I would hate to be stuck shooting ONLY at 12 fps or 3 fps. Thankfully, it can be set anywhere in between as well.

My low speed on the 1D4 is set to 5fps (same as the 1DS3)

heheh funny ;)

but in this case with the difference you can turn that on when you want :)

When i shoot portraits i tend to take two or three pics to avoid having people with their eyes closed. Why on earth would you use 12fps for this? in two seconds you would have like 20 pics :P



Yes, pay the double for double framerate and then slow it down... That's like buying a Veyron, and tow it with a Lada to save gas....
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: helpful on May 31, 2012, 02:21:00 PM
For anyone worried that the life of the 1D X won't be longer because it will run through its 400,000 actuations super fast, there is a custom setting that enables one to adjust the shooting speed. This is one feature that I made careful to verify before ordering my 1D X. I would hate to be stuck shooting ONLY at 12 fps or 3 fps. Thankfully, it can be set anywhere in between as well.

My low speed on the 1D4 is set to 5fps (same as the 1DS3)

heheh funny ;)

but in this case with the difference you can turn that on when you want :)

When i shoot portraits i tend to take two or three pics to avoid having people with their eyes closed. Why on earth would you use 12fps for this? in two seconds you would have like 20 pics :P



Yes, pay the double for double framerate and then slow it down... That's like buying a Veyron, and tow it with a Lada to save gas....

Totally right on about shooting portraits. Anybody not understanding the usefulness of being able to change the top speed and slow speed is not thinking before posting.

And even the 14 fps IS extremely useful. Imagine getting a wide angle close up shot of a hurdler. At 6 fps one would only get about 2 frames possibly catching the action at the right moment. At 14 fps, one could get five frames as the hurdler crossed the hurdle, much more likely to get a perfect wide angle view of the hurdler.

14 fps is for creativity and usefulness, and so is 12 fps, and so is 5 fps, etc. I am paying for the creative ability.

Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Greatland on May 31, 2012, 02:55:10 PM
I have had this camera on order since late December....this is really getting old and all I can say is that Canon has done a very poor job in the PR field with respect to the delays.  If I didn't have so much invested in my lenses, etc I would switch to Nikon tomorrow.  Was at a college baseball game last weekend and watched the guy next to me shooting with his new Nikon D4 and when I asked him about it he was thrilled with how it was working....frankly the delays in the new Canon are getting ridiculous.  I am leaving for Arctic Svalbard in a little more than 3 weeks hoping to have the new camera to take with me along with my MK IV but that ain't happening.  I am just hoping that I will have mine by mid August when I head back up to Katmai for 3 weeks.....the Canon folks re really pi--ing me off!
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Mr Simpleton on May 31, 2012, 03:14:39 PM
Not sure why everybody is so worked up about delays... the 1Dx was announced in october and said to be available in march 2012. It seems delays are 2-3 months right now, if they start to ship in june.

I highly doubt they are trying to do major redesign... with 2,5 months delay. I bet they are trying to iron out firmware bugs and get all it in good working order for the olympics.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: SuperCrazySamurai on May 31, 2012, 03:42:51 PM
Not sure why everybody is so worked up about delays... the 1Dx was announced in october and said to be available in march 2012. It seems delays are 2-3 months right now, if they start to ship in june.

I highly doubt they are trying to do major redesign... with 2,5 months delay. I bet they are trying to iron out firmware bugs and get all it in good working order for the olympics.

Got to agree there, "if" it is delayed again(it is just a rumor..lol). I can't see Canon missing the Olympics...if they do it would be an EPIC fail. :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Viggo on May 31, 2012, 04:51:20 PM
For anyone worried that the life of the 1D X won't be longer because it will run through its 400,000 actuations super fast, there is a custom setting that enables one to adjust the shooting speed. This is one feature that I made careful to verify before ordering my 1D X. I would hate to be stuck shooting ONLY at 12 fps or 3 fps. Thankfully, it can be set anywhere in between as well.

My low speed on the 1D4 is set to 5fps (same as the 1DS3)

heheh funny ;)

but in this case with the difference you can turn that on when you want :)

When i shoot portraits i tend to take two or three pics to avoid having people with their eyes closed. Why on earth would you use 12fps for this? in two seconds you would have like 20 pics :P



Yes, pay the double for double framerate and then slow it down... That's like buying a Veyron, and tow it with a Lada to save gas....

Anybody not understanding the usefulness of being able to change the top speed and slow speed is not thinking before posting.
.

I have owned the 1d3 and the 1d4 so I know very well about setting fps. The thing is, the 1d4 at 10 fps got me less keepers than the 5d3 with 6 fps, so essentially wasting frames. I didn't shot 10 fps to get that critical moment, I shot 10 fps to be sure I had a few sharp images to choose from a sequence. And I have used the 1d X, and for me personally 12 fps means I really have to dig to find something that is THAT fast that I need it, AND the AF has to able to keep up. That is a very hard task to do, and none of the 1d's have done it so far, or any other camera, ever. The X is good, but the AF isn't as fast as your vision and mind. And I think that when shooting a sporting event with the X, you could have gotten by with 6 fps, but you have it set to 12 to be sure, meaning your shooting a huge amount of images not neccesary to catch a critical moment. And then you're still absolutely have to have 100% of those shot perfectly focused. That would be absolutely crazy to have 100% hitrate at all times.

That is why paying double and slowing down doesn't make sense. This is, again, singled out only in the discussion of shutter durabillity taken out of contex when considering the (on paper since no one has used both and compared) way better tracking of the 1d X. Shutter durabillty only  :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: briansquibb on May 31, 2012, 06:12:04 PM
I have owned the 1d3 and the 1d4 so I know very well about setting fps. The thing is, the 1d4 at 10 fps got me less keepers than the 5d3 with 6 fps, so essentially wasting frames. I didn't shot 10 fps to get that critical moment, I shot 10 fps to be sure I had a few sharp images to choose from a sequence. And I have used the 1d X, and for me personally 12 fps means I really have to dig to find something that is THAT fast that I need it, AND the AF has to able to keep up. That is a very hard task to do, and none of the 1d's have done it so far, or any other camera, ever. The X is good, but the AF isn't as fast as your vision and mind. And I think that when shooting a sporting event with the X, you could have gotten by with 6 fps, but you have it set to 12 to be sure, meaning your shooting a huge amount of images not neccesary to catch a critical moment. And then you're still absolutely have to have 100% of those shot perfectly focused. That would be absolutely crazy to have 100% hitrate at all times.

That is why paying double and slowing down doesn't make sense. This is, again, singled out only in the discussion of shutter durabillity taken out of contex when considering the (on paper since no one has used both and compared) way better tracking of the 1d X. Shutter durabillty only  :P

You might no see the sense behind it - but I do - and that is no doubt why all the faster frame rate cameras offer a slow continuous - yes including Nikon D4 etc

As for you having less keepers, well over the weekend I was taking pictures of planes at 10fps and the problem I had was the extremely high keeper rate. This was with the 1D4 and 600mm (and sometimes with the 1.4).

Do you think the world sports pros would tolerate lots of missed shots? These are those pros that you see with the long white lens.  If they missed shots on a regular basis they would have moved to the D3S - the ones with big black lens that are conspicuously absent at sporting events. So how come you miss shots and slag off Canon when the majority of top pros seem to be happy?

Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Viggo on May 31, 2012, 06:39:05 PM
I have owned the 1d3 and the 1d4 so I know very well about setting fps. The thing is, the 1d4 at 10 fps got me less keepers than the 5d3 with 6 fps, so essentially wasting frames. I didn't shot 10 fps to get that critical moment, I shot 10 fps to be sure I had a few sharp images to choose from a sequence. And I have used the 1d X, and for me personally 12 fps means I really have to dig to find something that is THAT fast that I need it, AND the AF has to able to keep up. That is a very hard task to do, and none of the 1d's have done it so far, or any other camera, ever. The X is good, but the AF isn't as fast as your vision and mind. And I think that when shooting a sporting event with the X, you could have gotten by with 6 fps, but you have it set to 12 to be sure, meaning your shooting a huge amount of images not neccesary to catch a critical moment. And then you're still absolutely have to have 100% of those shot perfectly focused. That would be absolutely crazy to have 100% hitrate at all times.

That is why paying double and slowing down doesn't make sense. This is, again, singled out only in the discussion of shutter durabillity taken out of contex when considering the (on paper since no one has used both and compared) way better tracking of the 1d X. Shutter durabillty only  :P

You might no see the sense behind it - but I do - and that is no doubt why all the faster frame rate cameras offer a slow continuous - yes including Nikon D4 etc

As for you having less keepers, well over the weekend I was taking pictures of planes at 10fps and the problem I had was the extremely high keeper rate. This was with the 1D4 and 600mm (and sometimes with the 1.4).

Do you think the world sports pros would tolerate lots of missed shots? These are those pros that you see with the long white lens.  If they missed shots on a regular basis they would have moved to the D3S - the ones with big black lens that are conspicuously absent at sporting events. So how come you miss shots and slag off Canon when the majority of top pros seem to be happy?

First off, I did not slag off Canon, this was specified as being related to shutter durabillty, and how fast you run through the given actuations guranteed by Canon, nothing else.

"So how come you miss shots and slag off Canon when the majority of top pros seem to be happy?"

Because I don't shoot planes at infinty but close subjects with fast lenses, such as kids at 1,2 aperture.

Did I say the D3s was better? If I recall the D3s and 1d4 scored pretty equally. So you don't have a choice but have to use the best that is out there, now, if the 1d4 gave you the best keeperrate ever, what's the need for a COMPLETELY new AF-system that is better in every which way in the 5d3 and 1d X compared to previous models?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: briansquibb on May 31, 2012, 06:48:54 PM
I have owned the 1d3 and the 1d4 so I know very well about setting fps. The thing is, the 1d4 at 10 fps got me less keepers than the 5d3 with 6 fps, so essentially wasting frames. I didn't shot 10 fps to get that critical moment, I shot 10 fps to be sure I had a few sharp images to choose from a sequence. And I have used the 1d X, and for me personally 12 fps means I really have to dig to find something that is THAT fast that I need it, AND the AF has to able to keep up. That is a very hard task to do, and none of the 1d's have done it so far, or any other camera, ever. The X is good, but the AF isn't as fast as your vision and mind. And I think that when shooting a sporting event with the X, you could have gotten by with 6 fps, but you have it set to 12 to be sure, meaning your shooting a huge amount of images not neccesary to catch a critical moment. And then you're still absolutely have to have 100% of those shot perfectly focused. That would be absolutely crazy to have 100% hitrate at all times.

That is why paying double and slowing down doesn't make sense. This is, again, singled out only in the discussion of shutter durabillity taken out of contex when considering the (on paper since no one has used both and compared) way better tracking of the 1d X. Shutter durabillty only  :P

You might no see the sense behind it - but I do - and that is no doubt why all the faster frame rate cameras offer a slow continuous - yes including Nikon D4 etc

As for you having less keepers, well over the weekend I was taking pictures of planes at 10fps and the problem I had was the extremely high keeper rate. This was with the 1D4 and 600mm (and sometimes with the 1.4).

Do you think the world sports pros would tolerate lots of missed shots? These are those pros that you see with the long white lens.  If they missed shots on a regular basis they would have moved to the D3S - the ones with big black lens that are conspicuously absent at sporting events. So how come you miss shots and slag off Canon when the majority of top pros seem to be happy?

First off, I did not slag off Canon, this was specified as being related to shutter durabillty, and how fast you run through the given actuations guranteed by Canon, nothing else.

"So how come you miss shots and slag off Canon when the majority of top pros seem to be happy?"

Because I don't shoot planes at infinty but close subjects with fast lenses, such as kids at 1,2 aperture.

Did I say the D3s was better? If I recall the D3s and 1d4 scored pretty equally. So you don't have a choice but have to use the best that is out there, now, if the 1d4 gave you the best keeperrate ever, what's the need for a COMPLETELY new AF-system that is better in every which way in the 5d3 and 1d X compared to previous models?

We had this discussion before about how the human cannot adjust fast enough when taking pictures at 10fps so at f/1.2 you are bound to get more OOF - that is because of the human not the camera.

I didn't say the D3S was better - but that if the 1D4 AF was so poor then the top pros would have moved to the D3S.

The new AF system of the 1DX is different because of the new metering and extra AF points
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: JaxPhotoBuff on May 31, 2012, 06:55:53 PM
So, we are 5 pages into this thread, and still no one has weighed in to affirm or deny that they have 1) received a 1DX that they purchased rather than borrowed, and 2) that the camera is or is not a pre-production model.

Anyone...?  Beuler...Beuler?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on May 31, 2012, 11:26:58 PM
Well that explains why the guy on that other forum that said he had received his and uploaded pictures, but then later deleted his post and the pictures.

That doesn't explain anything :) Because I was allowed to publish photos from preproduction version almost without any restrictions. I probably could even post raw files (at least the document I received didn't make any difference between raw and jpg.)

Few real life samples (converted from RAW in Camera RAW 6.7 RC with default settings):
http://www.martinkozak.com/?p=12170 (http://www.martinkozak.com/?p=12170)

Can you post an ISO100 RAW file?
It can be of anything or nothing.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on May 31, 2012, 11:32:30 PM
What I heard is the reflex mirror problem because of the 14fps continious shoot

???

It doesn't even move the mirror in 14fps mode.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on May 31, 2012, 11:34:27 PM
Meantime, here we are on May 31, and still no 5D3 battery grip in hand or firmware update either.

People are already using the 5D3 grip.


Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: pwp on June 01, 2012, 01:20:50 AM
Meantime, here we are on May 31, and still no 5D3 battery grip in hand or firmware update either.
People are already using the 5D3 grip.
He's right, the grips definitely are in. Had mine for 10 days or so. Even seeing price drops from RRP. Even seeing the eBay clones starting to ship. It completes the 5D3 for me...but grips generally do when that's what you're used to. But boy it's big...a BG-E11 gripped 5D3 is taller, thicker bulkier and around 30 grams heavier than a 1D Mk4.

PW
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: hhelmbold on June 01, 2012, 02:13:40 AM
Not sure why everybody is so worked up about delays... the 1Dx was announced in october and said to be available in march 2012. It seems delays are 2-3 months right now, if they start to ship in june.

I highly doubt they are trying to do major redesign... with 2,5 months delay. I bet they are trying to iron out firmware bugs and get all it in good working order for the olympics.

Got to agree there, "if" it is delayed again(it is just a rumor..lol). I can't see Canon missing the Olympics...if they do it would be an EPIC fail. :)

I also have to agree... this is all based on rumors that it will be delayed once again, or is there some proof? This is all based on the olympic photographers not getting a production 1DX already... well why should they? I have been waiting just as long and the 1DX is just as important to me, only difference is that I am not going to the olympics. I don't think photographers are going to the olympics based on the assumption that they will have a 1DX.

On the other hand I do think it is of Canon's interest to have the 1DX at the olympics and if they release it too late, then photographers might not feel comfortable enough to use it. So any chance this is why they are giving out pre-production models to certain photographers, maybe to get to know the camera? Every single person who has used the pre-production model loved the camera, I haven't seen anything on mirrors or firmware or battery issues in any of their reviews (maybe they aren't allowed to speak the truth, but I doubt it)

All I am saying is that I won't jump to conclusions because some photographers haven't been treated better than others. I'll wait for Canon to do the delay announcements... I think at this stage we need Canon Rumors to be our light at the end of the tunnel and rather rumor good news... we're already depressed  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: wickidwombat on June 01, 2012, 02:30:56 AM
(maybe they aren't allowed to speak the truth, but I doubt it)

LOL i just had an image of chuck westfall in a brown robe performing jedi mind tricks of them :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: nikkito on June 01, 2012, 02:57:54 AM
Not sure why everybody is so worked up about delays... the 1Dx was announced in october and said to be available in march 2012. It seems delays are 2-3 months right now, if they start to ship in june.

I highly doubt they are trying to do major redesign... with 2,5 months delay. I bet they are trying to iron out firmware bugs and get all it in good working order for the olympics.

Got to agree there, "if" it is delayed again(it is just a rumor..lol). I can't see Canon missing the Olympics...if they do it would be an EPIC fail. :)

I also have to agree... this is all based on rumors that it will be delayed once again, or is there some proof? This is all based on the olympic photographers not getting a production 1DX already... well why should they? I have been waiting just as long and the 1DX is just as important to me, only difference is that I am not going to the olympics. I don't think photographers are going to the olympics based on the assumption that they will have a 1DX.

On the other hand I do think it is of Canon's interest to have the 1DX at the olympics and if they release it too late, then photographers might not feel comfortable enough to use it. So any chance this is why they are giving out pre-production models to certain photographers, maybe to get to know the camera? Every single person who has used the pre-production model loved the camera, I haven't seen anything on mirrors or firmware or battery issues in any of their reviews (maybe they aren't allowed to speak the truth, but I doubt it)

All I am saying is that I won't jump to conclusions because some photographers haven't been treated better than others. I'll wait for Canon to do the delay announcements... I think at this stage we need Canon Rumors to be our light at the end of the tunnel and rather rumor good news... we're already depressed  ;D

+1.000  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: John Thomas on June 01, 2012, 03:45:42 AM
Given the target market, the price and the fact that their reputation in the professional market rides on this camera, is it any wonder that Canon wants to make sure the thing is as close to perfect as possible before releasing it?

If they think this, they must be really desperate - engineering is always a compromise between dev time and product lifecycle, thus making "near perfection" an idea for geeks, not for a commercial company. It's much more likely that they found flaws (f8 af?) they couldn't get away with given the competition, so rather than "near perfection" its more like "good enough".

1.) By improving 1DX to not leave the impression that 5D3 is abandoned.
Abandoned customers will abandon the brand.

Are you suggesting that Canon would be well-advised not to put any significant last-minute improvement in the 1dx, because it may make the 5d3 look bad? Geez, this is the way of technology - and Canon will hardly stop development because some 5d3 users are a bit touchy when they hear "Nikon" and could not stand internal Canon competition, too. Didn't tons of 5d3 threads establish that the 5d3 is a great body at any price and nothing else matters, esp. not other alternatives :-o ?

I had in mind that they could try NOT to put a "last-minute improvement" (significant or not) but to include a "big" improvement which they have behind the closed doors - something like a BSI sensor - they have the technology, put the link bellow in the Google Translate to see:

http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2012-01-23 (http://egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2012-01-23)

...also have a look here:

http://photorumors.com/2012/01/23/sony-develops-next-generation-back-illuminated-cmos-sensor-with-rgbw-coding-and-hdr-movie-function-canon-files-a-patent-for-a-large-bsi-sensor/ (http://photorumors.com/2012/01/23/sony-develops-next-generation-back-illuminated-cmos-sensor-with-rgbw-coding-and-hdr-movie-function-canon-files-a-patent-for-a-large-bsi-sensor/)

For an expensive product with a long life cycle like 5D3/1DX the early adopters are one of the most valuable assets of a company. It they will feel betrayed then they will betray - a damage which is very hard to repair after. I know this from many years of experience.

Having a camera being twice as expensive and two or even three times better it is understandable. But having a camera ten times better just because they wanted to fool the early adopters and enthusiasts with 5DMk3 - this will backfire. Too few will think that they had a stiff competition from Nikon/Sony and they needed to throw everything against them. The ones who purcased an comparatively over-priced 5D3 will feel cheated and next time who will dare to commit?

OTOH, from my small experience, as I stated elsewhere and it seems that I'm not alone, they now try to overcome some design issues and to improve to the max the firmware (this includes also end-user features like black AF thing but also the internal processing engines like ADC / noise handling etc.). The risk is way to big (imho) to redesign hardware now.

But I think that's critical for them to crowdsource their problems even in the form of "rumors" (this is one the best ways to keep the brand goodwill untouched) because more eyeballs will see better and perhaps a solution will appear from "nowhere" (if it didn't appeared already ;) ).

JustMy0.02c++

JohnTh.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: wockawocka on June 01, 2012, 04:40:06 AM
I've never considered using Nikon but if they keep going the way they seem to be, i.e. removing the AA filters from sensors and release a D4 like that then I'll probably be off.

You don't realise how clear images can be until you've shot something without an AA filter like a MF back.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: expatinasia on June 01, 2012, 04:45:24 AM
Maybe it is a lot simpler than all this. Maybe it is just like I suggested in another thread some time back. Maybe they have just run out of black tape! ;-)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: helpful on June 01, 2012, 10:13:42 AM
There is some good news out there, though. Have any of you seen the recent series of sample images? I thought for sure someone was going to post the link because they have been there for 36 hours or so, but I haven't noticed anyone mention it yet.

http://www.fotomagazin.de/test_technik/testbilder/detail.php?objectID=6204&class=&thema (http://www.fotomagazin.de/test_technik/testbilder/detail.php?objectID=6204&class=&thema)

If you toggle through the photos at full screen size (not 1:1), it's impossible to tell any difference until beyond ISO 12,800. At 1:1 it is great, no worse than ISO 400 on cameras five-six years ago. The top of the regular ISO range, 51,200, actually does look usable as well--certainly better than 25,600 on the 5D3.

I am so excited because I was still grappling in my mind with the worry that I should have gone with the D4 (I already own complete systems of both Canon and Nikon, so the array of lenses isn't an issue for me).
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: lonebear on June 01, 2012, 12:16:45 PM

I had in mind that they could try NOT to put a "last-minute improvement" (significant or not) but to include a "big" improvement which they have behind the closed doors - something like a BSI sensor - they have the technology...


A BSI sensor, if it ever be true, will place Canon at the same starting line as Nikon/Sony, and should be worth of the long bitter waiting period...
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jrista on June 01, 2012, 07:10:50 PM

I had in mind that they could try NOT to put a "last-minute improvement" (significant or not) but to include a "big" improvement which they have behind the closed doors - something like a BSI sensor - they have the technology...


A BSI sensor, if it ever be true, will place Canon at the same starting line as Nikon/Sony, and should be worth of the long bitter waiting period...

BSI primarily benefits sensors with small pixel pitch, and the aim is to increase QE (quantum efficiency), which only might affect noise levels as more of a byproduct of its primary job. (BSI basically "flips" the fabricated sensor upside down, putting all the R/C activation and readout wiring behind the photodiode, and therefor out of the light path from the pixel/microlens.) The pixel pitch on the 1D X sensor is relatively very large, and it would benefit little from a BSI design. The D800 does not use a BSI design either...it is still FSI.

The difference between Sony cmos sensors and Canon cmos sensors is that Sony integrates FAR more hardware-level noise reduction technology than Canon. Currently, to my knowledge, Canon sensors only employ CDS, Correlated Double-Sampling...however I believe their patents date back nearly a decade. Sony sensors employ a newer and more effective form of CDS, a form of transistor differential compensation to reduce FPN, integrated column-parallel ADC (a smaller, slower ADC for every column of pixels built right into the sensor...slower ADC's produce less noise of their own, and having one ACD per column also helps reduce FPN), and a few other smaller improvements that I currently can't find the patents for. Its these explicit noise reduction features that make a Sony Exmor sensor produce cleaner pictures than a Canon sensor.

Canon could benefit from a BSI sensor in their compact and bridge cameras, but the improvement to QE in a large sensor with a very large pixel pitch like the 1D X would be very small...maybe 1-2%...definitely not enough to put them in the same league as a Sony Exmor. (It should be noted that Canon uses a gapless "microlens" sensor design...but the pixels themselves still have gaps between them...most of the activate and readout wiring exists within the spaces of the gaps, with minimal intrusion into the light path from a pixel. If this were not the case, as might indeed be the case with a very high density full-frame camera (say 60mp or more, the 2-3 micron pixel pitch range), then a BSI design would probably benefit a full-frame high resolution sensor as much as it benefits a tiny point and shoot sensor.)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: AG on June 02, 2012, 01:04:33 AM

I had in mind that they could try NOT to put a "last-minute improvement" (significant or not) but to include a "big" improvement which they have behind the closed doors - something like a BSI sensor - they have the technology...


A BSI sensor, if it ever be true, will place Canon at the same starting line as Nikon/Sony, and should be worth of the long bitter waiting period...

BSI primarily benefits sensors with small pixel pitch, and the aim is to increase QE (quantum efficiency), which only might affect noise levels as more of a byproduct of its primary job. (BSI basically "flips" the fabricated sensor upside down, putting all the R/C activation and readout wiring behind the photodiode, and therefor out of the light path from the pixel/microlens.) The pixel pitch on the 1D X sensor is relatively very large, and it would benefit little from a BSI design. The D800 does not use a BSI design either...it is still FSI.

The difference between Sony cmos sensors and Canon cmos sensors is that Sony integrates FAR more hardware-level noise reduction technology than Canon. Currently, to my knowledge, Canon sensors only employ CDS, Correlated Double-Sampling...however I believe their patents date back nearly a decade. Sony sensors employ a newer and more effective form of CDS, a form of transistor differential compensation to reduce FPN, integrated column-parallel ADC (a smaller, slower ADC for every column of pixels built right into the sensor...slower ADC's produce less noise of their own, and having one ACD per column also helps reduce FPN), and a few other smaller improvements that I currently can't find the patents for. Its these explicit noise reduction features that make a Sony Exmor sensor produce cleaner pictures than a Canon sensor.

Canon could benefit from a BSI sensor in their compact and bridge cameras, but the improvement to QE in a large sensor with a very large pixel pitch like the 1D X would be very small...maybe 1-2%...definitely not enough to put them in the same league as a Sony Exmor. (It should be noted that Canon uses a gapless "microlens" sensor design...but the pixels themselves still have gaps between them...most of the activate and readout wiring exists within the spaces of the gaps, with minimal intrusion into the light path from a pixel. If this were not the case, as might indeed be the case with a very high density full-frame camera (say 60mp or more, the 2-3 micron pixel pitch range), then a BSI design would probably benefit a full-frame high resolution sensor as much as it benefits a tiny point and shoot sensor.)

Your post needs more acronyms  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: John Thomas on June 02, 2012, 05:25:15 AM

I had in mind that they could try NOT to put a "last-minute improvement" (significant or not) but to include a "big" improvement which they have behind the closed doors - something like a BSI sensor - they have the technology...


A BSI sensor, if it ever be true, will place Canon at the same starting line as Nikon/Sony, and should be worth of the long bitter waiting period...

BSI primarily benefits sensors with small pixel pitch, and the aim is to increase QE (quantum efficiency), which only might affect noise levels as more of a byproduct of its primary job. (BSI basically "flips" the fabricated sensor upside down, putting all the R/C activation and readout wiring behind the photodiode, and therefor out of the light path from the pixel/microlens.) The pixel pitch on the 1D X sensor is relatively very large, and it would benefit little from a BSI design. The D800 does not use a BSI design either...it is still FSI.

The difference between Sony cmos sensors and Canon cmos sensors is that Sony integrates FAR more hardware-level noise reduction technology than Canon. Currently, to my knowledge, Canon sensors only employ CDS, Correlated Double-Sampling...however I believe their patents date back nearly a decade. Sony sensors employ a newer and more effective form of CDS, a form of transistor differential compensation to reduce FPN, integrated column-parallel ADC (a smaller, slower ADC for every column of pixels built right into the sensor...slower ADC's produce less noise of their own, and having one ACD per column also helps reduce FPN), and a few other smaller improvements that I currently can't find the patents for. Its these explicit noise reduction features that make a Sony Exmor sensor produce cleaner pictures than a Canon sensor.

Canon could benefit from a BSI sensor in their compact and bridge cameras, but the improvement to QE in a large sensor with a very large pixel pitch like the 1D X would be very small...maybe 1-2%...definitely not enough to put them in the same league as a Sony Exmor. (It should be noted that Canon uses a gapless "microlens" sensor design...but the pixels themselves still have gaps between them...most of the activate and readout wiring exists within the spaces of the gaps, with minimal intrusion into the light path from a pixel. If this were not the case, as might indeed be the case with a very high density full-frame camera (say 60mp or more, the 2-3 micron pixel pitch range), then a BSI design would probably benefit a full-frame high resolution sensor as much as it benefits a tiny point and shoot sensor.)

Your post needs more acronyms  ;D

Nope. It was quite informative as it was.  :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: nikkito on June 02, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
ehhh what?  ??? :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: pwp on June 02, 2012, 08:07:21 PM
Your post needs more acronyms  ;D

Awww you're being tough. FWIW he's probably from the Democratic Republic of Acrynomia (DRA).
Famous for some great photographers and excellent BLT's.

PW
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jrista on June 03, 2012, 02:19:06 AM
BSI primarily benefits sensors with small pixel pitch, and the aim is to increase QE (quantum efficiency), which only might affect noise levels as more of a byproduct of its primary job. (BSI basically "flips" the fabricated sensor upside down, putting all the R/C activation and readout wiring behind the photodiode, and therefor out of the light path from the pixel/microlens.) The pixel pitch on the 1D X sensor is relatively very large, and it would benefit little from a BSI design. The D800 does not use a BSI design either...it is still FSI.

The difference between Sony cmos sensors and Canon cmos sensors is that Sony integrates FAR more hardware-level noise reduction technology than Canon. Currently, to my knowledge, Canon sensors only employ CDS, Correlated Double-Sampling...however I believe their patents date back nearly a decade. Sony sensors employ a newer and more effective form of CDS, a form of transistor differential compensation to reduce FPN, integrated column-parallel ADC (a smaller, slower ADC for every column of pixels built right into the sensor...slower ADC's produce less noise of their own, and having one ACD per column also helps reduce FPN), and a few other smaller improvements that I currently can't find the patents for. Its these explicit noise reduction features that make a Sony Exmor sensor produce cleaner pictures than a Canon sensor.

Canon could benefit from a BSI sensor in their compact and bridge cameras, but the improvement to QE in a large sensor with a very large pixel pitch like the 1D X would be very small...maybe 1-2%...definitely not enough to put them in the same league as a Sony Exmor. (It should be noted that Canon uses a gapless "microlens" sensor design...but the pixels themselves still have gaps between them...most of the activate and readout wiring exists within the spaces of the gaps, with minimal intrusion into the light path from a pixel. If this were not the case, as might indeed be the case with a very high density full-frame camera (say 60mp or more, the 2-3 micron pixel pitch range), then a BSI design would probably benefit a full-frame high resolution sensor as much as it benefits a tiny point and shoot sensor.)

Your post needs more acronyms  ;D

Hah! :D I could probably conjure up a few more for ya... ;P
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jrista on June 03, 2012, 02:22:10 AM
Your post needs more acronyms  ;D

Awww you're being tough. FWIW he's probably from the Democratic Republic of Acrynomia (DRA).
Famous for some great photographers and excellent BLT's.

PW

Hmm...gonna have to look DRA up. (And get me some BLT's...MMM!)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jrista on June 03, 2012, 02:30:09 AM
ehhh what?  ??? :P

Well, to summarize:

BSI:
Backside Illuminated Sensors (BSI) only offers significant benefits when your pixels are ultra tiny...say 2 microns in size or less (many point and shoot/phone camera sensors have pixels as small as 1.9 microns, possibly even smaller these days, what with 40mp+ phone cameras floating around...!!) For comparison, a 7D has 4.3 micron pixels, the D800 has 4.6 micron pixels, the 5D II has 6.4 micron pixels and the 1D X has 6.95 micron pixels. Readout wiring is in the range of hundreds nanometers (fraction of a micron), so it isn't usually a problem until your pixels are around 2000 nanometers or less (where a couple hundred nanometers is a significant percentage of your pixel area).

Noise:
Sony Exmor mondo badass hardware noise removal.
Canon uber suckass hardware noise removal (well, ok..SO-SO mediocre hardware noise removal...to be fair ;) I am a Canon user after all. )
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: Ivar on June 03, 2012, 10:03:55 AM
Unfortunately not a very good test for deciding the high ISO capability - look at the shutter speed, there was plenty of good quality (studio) light, which absolutely doesn't reflect the intended use. It is the low light under which cameras start to break down in IQ.

There is some good news out there, though. Have any of you seen the recent series of sample images? I thought for sure someone was going to post the link because they have been there for 36 hours or so, but I haven't noticed anyone mention it yet.

http://www.fotomagazin.de/test_technik/testbilder/detail.php?objectID=6204&class=&thema (http://www.fotomagazin.de/test_technik/testbilder/detail.php?objectID=6204&class=&thema)

If you toggle through the photos at full screen size (not 1:1), it's impossible to tell any difference until beyond ISO 12,800. At 1:1 it is great, no worse than ISO 400 on cameras five-six years ago. The top of the regular ISO range, 51,200, actually does look usable as well--certainly better than 25,600 on the 5D3.

I am so excited because I was still grappling in my mind with the worry that I should have gone with the D4 (I already own complete systems of both Canon and Nikon, so the array of lenses isn't an issue for me).
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jrista on June 03, 2012, 02:29:25 PM
There is some good news out there, though. Have any of you seen the recent series of sample images? I thought for sure someone was going to post the link because they have been there for 36 hours or so, but I haven't noticed anyone mention it yet.

http://www.fotomagazin.de/test_technik/testbilder/detail.php?objectID=6204&class=&thema (http://www.fotomagazin.de/test_technik/testbilder/detail.php?objectID=6204&class=&thema)

If you toggle through the photos at full screen size (not 1:1), it's impossible to tell any difference until beyond ISO 12,800. At 1:1 it is great, no worse than ISO 400 on cameras five-six years ago. The top of the regular ISO range, 51,200, actually does look usable as well--certainly better than 25,600 on the 5D3.

I am so excited because I was still grappling in my mind with the worry that I should have gone with the D4 (I already own complete systems of both Canon and Nikon, so the array of lenses isn't an issue for me).

Hmm, I guess I would disagree that there are imperceptible differences till *after* 12800. At full size, it is readily apparent that there is some pretty heavy duty noise reduction going on at 12800, and its even visible at 3200. Below 3200, the difference between ISO 100 and ISO 1600 is largely imperceptible at 1:1 crop.

When viewing the images scaled down to "fit on screen" (2560x1600 30", a tad less than 1/4th the native image size, so approximately 2x downscaling), there is minimal perceptible difference between ISO 100 and ISO 3200. At ISO 6400, things start to look ever so slightly "muddy" compared to ISO 100...fine details start to dull...although things still appear sharp. Fine detailed highlights in particular start to fade at ISO 6400. At ISO 12800, there is definite "muddying" of fine detail...the difference in the blue feather and thread wheels; the highlights of the silver bristle holder on the brush, the strainer, even fine highlight detail in the crumpled ball of foil; black printing on all of the highlight markers; finer detail in the queen playing card (which isn't really that "fine" overall)...all soften visibly between ISO 100 and 12800.

I would call every ISO setting up through 25600 "usable"...however if you need fine detail, 3200 seems to be the limit (most fine detail, including highlight detail, is preserved up through ISO 3200.) I would call 51200 usable in certain circumstances, however it definitely obliterates finer details. If I wanted to make a recording like the one NASA Astronauts made from the ISS of earth and the auroras at night, I would say that 51200 would do a better job than the Nikon D3 did on their first video, preserving even finer earthly details.

It is a bummer all of these photos are JPEG's though. I would really love to see how the same photos fare with RAW and some more meticulous, manual noise reduction and sharpening. I wonder how much detail could be preserved.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: 1dxhurryup on June 04, 2012, 03:47:31 AM
More about 1dx.

The 1dx firmware is 7.1.1 B0.9

so close now!!!

:D
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: John Thomas on June 04, 2012, 04:30:56 AM
ehhh what?  ??? :P

Well, to summarize:

BSI:
Backside Illuminated Sensors (BSI) only offers significant benefits when your pixels are ultra tiny...say 2 microns in size or less (many point and shoot/phone camera sensors have pixels as small as 1.9 microns, possibly even smaller these days, what with 40mp+ phone cameras floating around...!!) For comparison, a 7D has 4.3 micron pixels, the D800 has 4.6 micron pixels, the 5D II has 6.4 micron pixels and the 1D X has 6.95 micron pixels. Readout wiring is in the range of hundreds nanometers (fraction of a micron), so it isn't usually a problem until your pixels are around 2000 nanometers or less (where a couple hundred nanometers is a significant percentage of your pixel area).

Noise:
Sony Exmor mondo badass hardware noise removal.
Canon uber suckass hardware noise removal (well, ok..SO-SO mediocre hardware noise removal...to be fair ;) I am a Canon user after all. )

Why do you think that Nikon D800's Exmor sensor settled at 36 Mpix?

Wouldn't be a much better solution WRT noise removal a, let's say, 22-24 Mpix sensor? Now I'm thinking that if Nikon would had a 18-24Mpix Exmor then the 5D3 would be in serious trouble, because Exmor's NR hardware correlated with a rather big pixel size would have an amazing output even at high ISOs.

What do you think?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: John Thomas on June 04, 2012, 04:53:39 AM
More about 1dx.

The 1dx firmware is 7.1.1 B0.9

so close now!!!

:D

1. Aha! They have a firmare in late Beta. Very good! They're working on it.

It is very very good for the community to know this. Also I presume that the 5D3's firmware is update accordingly, where applicable, isn't it? :)

2. > "So close now!!!"  ...hmmm.... from WHERE do you know?  :)

Usually these sorts of things are shipped "when is/are ready" (TM). A small hurdle can keep the team for enough time stuck. What makes you to say "So close now!!!" (with three exclamation marks)

OTOH, someone very close to the team knows such things. (I don't think that's very bad to say that you know more - in fact it would help us, the guys which are left in the twilight zone) Especially if we can help with something and/or is something which affects many (eg. it is related also to 5D3 - for ex. a wide-impact update) or affects few (eg. a niche feature which is related only to 1DX - eg. Ethernet card).

3. Did you just received a new firmware for your 1DX? :)

Thanks in advance for your response!
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: 1dxhurryup on June 04, 2012, 05:05:19 AM
More about 1dx.

The 1dx firmware is 7.1.1 B0.9

so close now!!!

:D

1. Aha! They have a firmare in late Beta. Very good! They're working on it.

It is very very good for the community to know this. Also I presume that the 5D3's firmware is update accordingly, where applicable, isn't it? :)

2. > "So close now!!!"  ...hmmm.... from WHERE do you know?  :)

Usually these sorts of things are shipped "when is/are ready" (TM). A small hurdle can keep the team for enough time stuck. What makes you to say "So close now!!!" (with three exclamation marks)

OTOH, someone very close to the team knows such things. (I don't think that's very bad to say that you know more - in fact it would help us, the guys which are left in the twilight zone) Especially if we can help with something and/or is something which affects many (eg. it is related also to 5D3 - for ex. a wide-impact update) or affects few (eg. a niche feature which is related only to 1DX - eg. Ethernet card).

3. Did you just received a new firmware for your 1DX? :)

Thanks in advance for your response!

That's not my 1dx.
Just know it...from a chinese forum.
:D
(http://forum.xitek.com/pics/201206/14251/1425154/1425154_1338788264.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: 1dxhurryup on June 04, 2012, 05:39:19 AM
More about 1dx.

The 1dx firmware is 7.1.1 B0.9

so close now!!!

:D

1. Aha! They have a firmare in late Beta. Very good! They're working on it.

It is very very good for the community to know this. Also I presume that the 5D3's firmware is update accordingly, where applicable, isn't it? :)

2. > "So close now!!!"  ...hmmm.... from WHERE do you know?  :)

Usually these sorts of things are shipped "when is/are ready" (TM). A small hurdle can keep the team for enough time stuck. What makes you to say "So close now!!!" (with three exclamation marks)

OTOH, someone very close to the team knows such things. (I don't think that's very bad to say that you know more - in fact it would help us, the guys which are left in the twilight zone) Especially if we can help with something and/or is something which affects many (eg. it is related also to 5D3 - for ex. a wide-impact update) or affects few (eg. a niche feature which is related only to 1DX - eg. Ethernet card).

3. Did you just received a new firmware for your 1DX? :)

Thanks in advance for your response!

In addition, mid June is still the target date.
From the sample pic there, the high iso is not really cool as Canon said before.
3200 is acceptable.
U can c so many noise when push to 6400...
A little bit disappointed about that...

However, this machine is still on the top of Canon camera tree.
Nikon's high iso is always better, but Canon's color is better!!!

Am I right? :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: nikkito on June 04, 2012, 10:54:50 AM
ehhh what?  ??? :P

Well, to summarize:

BSI:
Backside Illuminated Sensors (BSI) only offers significant benefits when your pixels are ultra tiny...say 2 microns in size or less (many point and shoot/phone camera sensors have pixels as small as 1.9 microns, possibly even smaller these days, what with 40mp+ phone cameras floating around...!!) For comparison, a 7D has 4.3 micron pixels, the D800 has 4.6 micron pixels, the 5D II has 6.4 micron pixels and the 1D X has 6.95 micron pixels. Readout wiring is in the range of hundreds nanometers (fraction of a micron), so it isn't usually a problem until your pixels are around 2000 nanometers or less (where a couple hundred nanometers is a significant percentage of your pixel area).

Noise:
Sony Exmor mondo badass hardware noise removal.
Canon uber suckass hardware noise removal (well, ok..SO-SO mediocre hardware noise removal...to be fair ;) I am a Canon user after all. )

Thanks for the explanation :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: John Thomas on June 04, 2012, 12:50:45 PM
More about 1dx.

The 1dx firmware is 7.1.1 B0.9

so close now!!!

:D

1. Aha! They have a firmare in late Beta. Very good! They're working on it.

It is very very good for the community to know this. Also I presume that the 5D3's firmware is update accordingly, where applicable, isn't it? :)

2. > "So close now!!!"  ...hmmm.... from WHERE do you know?  :)

Usually these sorts of things are shipped "when is/are ready" (TM). A small hurdle can keep the team for enough time stuck. What makes you to say "So close now!!!" (with three exclamation marks)

OTOH, someone very close to the team knows such things. (I don't think that's very bad to say that you know more - in fact it would help us, the guys which are left in the twilight zone) Especially if we can help with something and/or is something which affects many (eg. it is related also to 5D3 - for ex. a wide-impact update) or affects few (eg. a niche feature which is related only to 1DX - eg. Ethernet card).

3. Did you just received a new firmware for your 1DX? :)

Thanks in advance for your response!

In addition, mid June is still the target date.
From the sample pic there, the high iso is not really cool as Canon said before.
3200 is acceptable.
U can c so many noise when push to 6400...
A little bit disappointed about that...

However, this machine is still on the top of Canon camera tree.
Nikon's high iso is always better, but Canon's color is better!!!

Am I right? :D

Thanks for the info.

OTOH, regarding to ISOs - Hmmm... I don't know. 5D3 is MUCH better at high ISOs in 100% crops than its competitor (D800). Also, I expect that 1DX to be better than D4, but we'll see. The thing is debatable.

Also, I preffer the Canon's "better colors". On scientific side, tough, while D800 has an amazing DR on low ISOs, this falls quite abruptly at high ISOs and Canon is better there by a sensible margin. I would say that 5D3 has a good 3200, very usable 6400 and an usable 12800. Also, if you really want a shoot, 28500 can do also your job, but you can loose enough details there.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jrista on June 04, 2012, 03:59:31 PM
ehhh what?  ??? :P

Well, to summarize:

BSI:
Backside Illuminated Sensors (BSI) only offers significant benefits when your pixels are ultra tiny...say 2 microns in size or less (many point and shoot/phone camera sensors have pixels as small as 1.9 microns, possibly even smaller these days, what with 40mp+ phone cameras floating around...!!) For comparison, a 7D has 4.3 micron pixels, the D800 has 4.6 micron pixels, the 5D II has 6.4 micron pixels and the 1D X has 6.95 micron pixels. Readout wiring is in the range of hundreds nanometers (fraction of a micron), so it isn't usually a problem until your pixels are around 2000 nanometers or less (where a couple hundred nanometers is a significant percentage of your pixel area).

Noise:
Sony Exmor mondo badass hardware noise removal.
Canon uber suckass hardware noise removal (well, ok..SO-SO mediocre hardware noise removal...to be fair ;) I am a Canon user after all. )

Why do you think that Nikon D800's Exmor sensor settled at 36 Mpix?

Wouldn't be a much better solution WRT noise removal a, let's say, 22-24 Mpix sensor? Now I'm thinking that if Nikon would had a 18-24Mpix Exmor then the 5D3 would be in serious trouble, because Exmor's NR hardware correlated with a rather big pixel size would have an amazing output even at high ISOs.

What do you think?

I don't really think there would be that much of a difference, honestly. Pixel size has more to do with QE, or Quantum Efficiency, than with noise. Improvements to QE have the side effect of improving noise characteristics, however outside of the lowest ISO settings (and even then, only to a slightly lesser degree), the very vast bulk of "noise" is photon shot noise, rather than electronic forms of noise. Photon shot noise is a matter of physics, due to the random and otherwise unpredictable nature of light packets (photons.)

All things being equal, once you eliminate most electronic forms of noise (such as is the case with Exmor sensors), more pixels is always a good thing. Higher spatial resolution at that point is always better than lower resolution, regardless of diffraction. At some point you reach a spatial resolution where even the finest details that you could possibly photograph require representation by many pixels (i.e. the smallest aspect of detail requires at lest 10x10 pixels to be represented.) Assuming little or no electronic noise, there is a HUGE benefit to that, because now noise is a SUB-DETAIL level issue, and noise removal is now largely and intrinsically a detail-neutral process.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: John Thomas on June 05, 2012, 02:35:03 AM
ehhh what?  ??? :P

Well, to summarize:

BSI:
Backside Illuminated Sensors (BSI) only offers significant benefits when your pixels are ultra tiny...say 2 microns in size or less (many point and shoot/phone camera sensors have pixels as small as 1.9 microns, possibly even smaller these days, what with 40mp+ phone cameras floating around...!!) For comparison, a 7D has 4.3 micron pixels, the D800 has 4.6 micron pixels, the 5D II has 6.4 micron pixels and the 1D X has 6.95 micron pixels. Readout wiring is in the range of hundreds nanometers (fraction of a micron), so it isn't usually a problem until your pixels are around 2000 nanometers or less (where a couple hundred nanometers is a significant percentage of your pixel area).

Noise:
Sony Exmor mondo badass hardware noise removal.
Canon uber suckass hardware noise removal (well, ok..SO-SO mediocre hardware noise removal...to be fair ;) I am a Canon user after all. )

Why do you think that Nikon D800's Exmor sensor settled at 36 Mpix?

Wouldn't be a much better solution WRT noise removal a, let's say, 22-24 Mpix sensor? Now I'm thinking that if Nikon would had a 18-24Mpix Exmor then the 5D3 would be in serious trouble, because Exmor's NR hardware correlated with a rather big pixel size would have an amazing output even at high ISOs.

What do you think?

I don't really think there would be that much of a difference, honestly. Pixel size has more to do with QE, or Quantum Efficiency, than with noise. Improvements to QE have the side effect of improving noise characteristics, however outside of the lowest ISO settings (and even then, only to a slightly lesser degree), the very vast bulk of "noise" is photon shot noise, rather than electronic forms of noise. Photon shot noise is a matter of physics, due to the random and otherwise unpredictable nature of light packets (photons.)

All things being equal, once you eliminate most electronic forms of noise (such as is the case with Exmor sensors), more pixels is always a good thing. Higher spatial resolution at that point is always better than lower resolution, regardless of diffraction. At some point you reach a spatial resolution where even the finest details that you could possibly photograph require representation by many pixels (i.e. the smallest aspect of detail requires at lest 10x10 pixels to be represented.) Assuming little or no electronic noise, there is a HUGE benefit to that, because now noise is a SUB-DETAIL level issue, and noise removal is now largely and intrinsically a detail-neutral process.

Hence the Megapixel Race will start again?

...However a very interesting effect is to be seen: Acording to DxO measurements (CIIW), while the EXMOR has an amazing Dynamic Range on very low ISOs, this falls linearly whereas 5D3's (and Nikon D4's) has a logarithmic(?) falloff having as a net result that the 5D3's DR is actually better (speaking at 100% crops) than Exmor's.

Another related question: Having so many Mpixels, perhaps is better to have an RGBW sensor rather than a RGB one? (I don't think so, but I'm asking anyway).

Thanks a bunch for your info,

John Th.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jrista on June 05, 2012, 11:06:01 AM
ehhh what?  ??? :P

Well, to summarize:

BSI:
Backside Illuminated Sensors (BSI) only offers significant benefits when your pixels are ultra tiny...say 2 microns in size or less (many point and shoot/phone camera sensors have pixels as small as 1.9 microns, possibly even smaller these days, what with 40mp+ phone cameras floating around...!!) For comparison, a 7D has 4.3 micron pixels, the D800 has 4.6 micron pixels, the 5D II has 6.4 micron pixels and the 1D X has 6.95 micron pixels. Readout wiring is in the range of hundreds nanometers (fraction of a micron), so it isn't usually a problem until your pixels are around 2000 nanometers or less (where a couple hundred nanometers is a significant percentage of your pixel area).

Noise:
Sony Exmor mondo badass hardware noise removal.
Canon uber suckass hardware noise removal (well, ok..SO-SO mediocre hardware noise removal...to be fair ;) I am a Canon user after all. )

Why do you think that Nikon D800's Exmor sensor settled at 36 Mpix?

Wouldn't be a much better solution WRT noise removal a, let's say, 22-24 Mpix sensor? Now I'm thinking that if Nikon would had a 18-24Mpix Exmor then the 5D3 would be in serious trouble, because Exmor's NR hardware correlated with a rather big pixel size would have an amazing output even at high ISOs.

What do you think?

I don't really think there would be that much of a difference, honestly. Pixel size has more to do with QE, or Quantum Efficiency, than with noise. Improvements to QE have the side effect of improving noise characteristics, however outside of the lowest ISO settings (and even then, only to a slightly lesser degree), the very vast bulk of "noise" is photon shot noise, rather than electronic forms of noise. Photon shot noise is a matter of physics, due to the random and otherwise unpredictable nature of light packets (photons.)

All things being equal, once you eliminate most electronic forms of noise (such as is the case with Exmor sensors), more pixels is always a good thing. Higher spatial resolution at that point is always better than lower resolution, regardless of diffraction. At some point you reach a spatial resolution where even the finest details that you could possibly photograph require representation by many pixels (i.e. the smallest aspect of detail requires at lest 10x10 pixels to be represented.) Assuming little or no electronic noise, there is a HUGE benefit to that, because now noise is a SUB-DETAIL level issue, and noise removal is now largely and intrinsically a detail-neutral process.

Hence the Megapixel Race will start again?

...However a very interesting effect is to be seen: Acording to DxO measurements (CIIW), while the EXMOR has an amazing Dynamic Range on very low ISOs, this falls linearly whereas 5D3's (and Nikon D4's) has a logarithmic(?) falloff having as a net result that the 5D3's DR is actually better (speaking at 100% crops) than Exmor's.

Another related question: Having so many Mpixels, perhaps is better to have an RGBW sensor rather than a RGB one? (I don't think so, but I'm asking anyway).

Thanks a bunch for your info,

John Th.

To your first point about the 5D III, if I understand what your saying, the 5D III has a maximum limit on DR as ISO drops (lower ISO's), however it too is linear as you increase ISO. That linearity is due to the fact that photon shot noise dominates at most ISO settings (above 200-400 ISO). Because of the fact that shot noise is a matter of physics, the individual characteristics of a sensor matter less from a noise standpoint once you reach that level, and pretty much all sensors will show similar faloff, with slight differences in total DR that might be attributed to QE, ADC gain, etc. Technically speaking, the 5D III has much worse DR at low ISO than the D800. From a read noise standpoint, the 5D III also falls off, however it starts at a rather unbelievable and almost criminal 34e- read noise and falls off to around 3e-, where as the D800 has around 2-4e- read noise at all ISO settings.

As for pixel arrangements, having white pixels was something tried by Kodak and Fuji. Kodak simply alternated in white pixels every third, or alternated a third type of row. Fuji used additional but smaller "white" pixels to increase DR quite a number of years ago. The advent of microlensing pretty much killed off most attempts to use white pixels, as they were all largely intended to increase QE from a luminance standpoint. Extra pixels or pixel types complicates bayer interpolation, reducing overall compatibility of RAW files with existing RAW processors, and has other detractors. Gapless Microlensing these days is capable of gathering significantly more light than prior sensor designs, and double-layered gapless microlensing (again used in Sony Exmor sensors) offers further efficiency gains...all without changing the standard bayer layout, allowing standardized bayer interpolation algorithms to work with such RAW files.

The ideal CMOS RGB sensor design is really Foveon...layered pixels with blue, green, then red layers. This kind of sensor design normalizes pixel distribution...eliminating the distributed bayer pattern that results in 1/2 red and blue pixels relative to green. It uses Silicon's natural filtration effect to filter out wavelengths as it penetrates deeper into any given pixels tri-color pixel well. Because every pixel is sensitive to the full range of light wavelengths, your QE is naturally higher, and a layer of microlensing could improve QE even more. The lack of a bayer pattern generally eliminates the need for a low-pass filter (which are usually used to avoid COLOR moire in bayer sensors)...you will still encounter some luminance (monochrome) moire, but you'll generally encounter that regardless anyway with or without a low-pass filter (except in the case of upscaling). Canon's best competitive move would really be to buy Foveon from Sigma, and put it to some truly good use. They could greatly improve IQ that way, and if they could improve resolution to current standard ranges (18-22mp), they could make a killing, and get competitive again. I figure that a backside illuminated design, and further copper-based/high conductivity activate and read wiring BSI would be necessary to increase Foveon-style sensors to current resolutions, however BSI designs are becoming rather academic at this point.
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: JaxPhotoBuff on June 05, 2012, 03:00:13 PM
This thread has gone seriously off the rails.  :o
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jmac1 on June 05, 2012, 05:18:56 PM
The 1DX was announced and I was sold on it, from a 5D2 upgrade. Then the 5DIII addressed 90% of what I was looking for in an upgrade, but I already set my sights on the 1DX, and have researched and self-justified it to myself. Now just waiting, especially after the March release came and went, then April, now June.

I am starting to worry as we are now into June and there are no rumours of potential shipping dates. Still shooting weddings on what I anticipated would be my new 1DX by now.  And each wedding that passes without a prospect to release is frustrating.

Sorry just needed to vent!
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: John Thomas on June 06, 2012, 02:43:10 AM
Quote
The ideal CMOS RGB sensor design is really Foveon...layered pixels with blue, green, then red layers. This kind of sensor design normalizes pixel distribution...eliminating the distributed bayer pattern that results in 1/2 red and blue pixels relative to green. It uses Silicon's natural filtration effect to filter out wavelengths as it penetrates deeper into any given pixels tri-color pixel well. Because every pixel is sensitive to the full range of light wavelengths, your QE is naturally higher, and a layer of microlensing could improve QE even more. The lack of a bayer pattern generally eliminates the need for a low-pass filter (which are usually used to avoid COLOR moire in bayer sensors)...you will still encounter some luminance (monochrome) moire, but you'll generally encounter that regardless anyway with or without a low-pass filter (except in the case of upscaling). Canon's best competitive move would really be to buy Foveon from Sigma, and put it to some truly good use. They could greatly improve IQ that way, and if they could improve resolution to current standard ranges (18-22mp), they could make a killing, and get competitive again. I figure that a backside illuminated design, and further copper-based/high conductivity activate and read wiring BSI would be necessary to increase Foveon-style sensors to current resolutions, however BSI designs are becoming rather academic at this point.

Also I do think that Foveon-like multi-layer sensors are the future. However:

1. Now, they behave poorly at high ISOs (layers response etc.). In how much amount of time do you think that they will be able to compete with Bayer on 800-6400 ISO?

2. I don't know if you're aware but it seems that Canon has a better patent than Foveon & Exmor for a multi-layer sensor:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0 (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)

In fact, in order to stay on topic  ;), this was the sensor which I've expected in 5D3/1DX. However it seems that it isn't.   :'(

3. OTOH, related to this, there are reports that 5D3 works without the AA (OLPF) filter. And I mean it works well. (No moire etc.).

Do you think that this thing really stands? An 5D3/E? An 5D3 without AA filter?
Title: Re: Canon EOS-1D X Delays [CR2]
Post by: jrista on June 06, 2012, 01:03:59 PM
Also I do think that Foveon-like multi-layer sensors are the future. However:

1. Now, they behave poorly at high ISOs (layers response etc.). In how much amount of time do you think that they will be able to compete with Bayer on 800-6400 ISO?

Implementing the kinds of advancements Sony has built into their Exmor sensors, implementing a BSI design (which it seems the Canon patent below DOES do), using gapless microlenses and large photosites to improve QE, etc. should all help address the green and red layer response. Intriguingly, the blue layer in Foveon is at the top, so it actually has the least noise. I think this helps lead to the perception that blues are better in Foveon-based cameras...they would certainly make for much nicer skies. Red is actually the noisiest channel in a layered design, as like red and blue in a bayer design, it needs to be amplified more due to receiving less light (and being smaller in area). Lower electronic noise would help that, though.

2. I don't know if you're aware but it seems that Canon has a better patent than Foveon & Exmor for a multi-layer sensor:

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0 (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=1209.0)

I do remember reading about that. I am actually glad they have a patent, and I REALLY hope they put it into use soon. That would be awesome. That patent is interesting in that it is not a gapless microlens design. Hopefully that is something they are improving, as a higher QE would help with overall IQ in a layered design. I also think that you could keep pixel sizes larger with a layered design, since you could use the full area of a bayer-style RGBG 2x2 quad for a single stack of BGR layered pixels...that would also help with QE. The BSI design of this patent is encouraging as well, as it puts the photodiode as close to the surface of the die as possible.

I am not sure how the readout wiring works. Relatively recent patents from Sigma showed some solid improvements in their column/row activate and read wiring, making it smaller, eliminating some wires allowing greater pixel area, and improved efficiency allowing faster readout. While I don't care much for Sigma's 46mp marketing (as when putting them head-to-head against bayer designs, they only offer 15mp in terms of image size), layered sensor designs do indeed have a lot more pixels for any given output size, so readout rate will suffer unless some significant improvements are made in that area. Canon did demonstrate a high-speed 120mp APS-H camera a number of years ago...if they could fold that kind of high-rate hyper-parallel readout technology into a layered CMOS design, then they could probably push total pixel counts closer to the 100mp range (which would produce about a 33mp output image.)

In fact, in order to stay on topic  ;), this was the sensor which I've expected in 5D3/1DX. However it seems that it isn't.   :'(

I really hope Canon does something innovative with their sensor design soon. I'm pretty much in holdout mode right now. I own a 7D, and I'm happy with everything about it except IQ in some cases. Every so often I get a shot that, for an unknown reason, shows FPN right up into the midtones. Drives me crazy, although I've found ways around that in many cases due to the kind of photography I do (birds, BIF, wildlife mostly). But it just feels so WRONG that I'm encountering such a degrading artifact in my images. And for all the money I've given Canon over the last few years (to the tune of nearly $12,000), I really EXPECT them to do better if they want to keep getting my money.

3. OTOH, related to this, there are reports that 5D3 works without the AA (OLPF) filter. And I mean it works well. (No moire etc.).

Do you think that this thing really stands? An 5D3/E? An 5D3 without AA filter?



The only cases where the AA filter was removed that I know of only removed the first half. Optical low-pass filters usually have a horizontal layer and a vertical layer, with an IR filter sandwiched between them. In the 5D III, it seems the second layer is glued to the CMOS sensor itself, so only half the OLPF was removed. That effectively reduces the anti-aliasing effect by 50%. Additionally, the cases where people described "zero moire" all seemed to be video cases. The lack of moire is more likely due to the fact that the 5D III uses 3x3 pixel binning when shooting video than the removal of the OLPF.