canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on June 19, 2012, 03:45:33 PM

Title: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Canon Rumors on June 19, 2012, 03:45:33 PM
Just a little bit of information out there
There isn’t a lot of technical information floating around about Canon’s mirrorless entry.

We’re getting more and more information that the announcement will be coming sometime in the next 30 days, but no solid date has been nailed down. Original estimates pegged an announcement in June, however Canon announcements move around pretty frequently.

Some technical stuff
We’ve heard only little bits of info about the mirrorless camera. The most notable is mentions that it will use the same sized sensor as the G1 X, and maybe even the exact same sensor. There has been no mention of the mount for the camera, that’s probably the biggest question surrounding it.

We’ve been told it will be launched with 3 lenses, which tells me we’re looking at a new mount. I don’t doubt there will be some way to make the camera compatible with at least EF lenses, and maybe EF-S as well.

It’s also been mentioned on more than one occassion, that this initial mirrorless announcement will be the “consumer” level camera and there are plans for “prosumer” and “professional” models.

I do expect  more to come out in the coming weeks.

cr

Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: unfocused on June 19, 2012, 03:51:38 PM
Let the gnashing of teeth begin.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: TrumpetPower! on June 19, 2012, 03:57:58 PM
Honestly?

Thanks to the Shorty McForty, I have no interest in a mirrorless camera.

b&
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Frankie T Fotografia on June 19, 2012, 04:01:58 PM
I'm interested. Might be a good choice for travel.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: dtameling on June 19, 2012, 04:24:02 PM
I think it could be a consumer smash success if it can compete with and Me_Me_Me the Nikon small ONE cameras. I'm still holding out for the pro versions...there's still hope. If they have the smaller sensor as well, I won't be buying. Adapter or not, that's too much crop factor to be practical and yet another set of measurements for crop factor, DOF, FOV, etc.

I'd love for everything in my bag to be Canon but while Canon plays the game carefully, my NEX-7 is becoming an every day go-to camera along side or instead of my 7D and the FS100 is looking like a better investment every day. I love my L glass but I like not having to carry it just as much and nobody I shoot for has noticed the difference between the EF 50mm f/1.4 and my old Nikon 50mm f/1.4.

Going small has extinguished all flame I was holding for the 5D mkIII...I'm starting to see why so many die hards still rock Leicas.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Dylan777 on June 19, 2012, 04:27:41 PM
I was hoping for FF or APS-C size and can be used with current EF "L" lenses - NOT 1.5" (18.7 x 14 mm). I'll carry my s100 instead 

Also, I have ZERO interest to buy more lenses that can only be used with mirrorless.

Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Ricku on June 19, 2012, 04:30:32 PM
We’ve heard only little bits of info about the mirrorless camera. The most notable is mentions that it will use the same sized sensor as the G1 X, and maybe even the exact same sensor.

And there we have it! This is exactly what I predicted a couple of weeks ago! Yet another let down down from Canon is on the horizon.

I guess the only way to get a mirrorless camera with FF is to dish out out $7000 - $8000 for the Leica M9, or the upcoming M10.

Dear Canon, why have you ceased to innovate and amaze?
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: RLPhoto on June 19, 2012, 04:34:45 PM
Darn it Canon! you have disappointed me again! APS-C or larger!
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: VirtualRain on June 19, 2012, 04:48:10 PM
I don't understand how this would be appealing to anyone.  One advantage Canon has over most others is their amazing EF and EF-S lens selection.  To start from scratch with a whole new mount does not help differentiate them at all.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: crazyrunner33 on June 19, 2012, 04:54:24 PM
[
And there we have it! Yet another let down down from Canon is on the horizon.



I respectfully disagree, this is the perfect rival for the GH2.  These will be perfect for consumers and can potentially win back the video market if they can abandon line skipping and down sample the sensor like the 5D Mark III and GH2.  Also with the small sensor size it'll probably allow a short flange distance and then allow people to ruse their old lenses including FD lenses. 

The different mount shouldn't matter as long as if Canon includes an EF adapter which wouldn't be difficult to do. The Black Magic has a slightly smaller sensor than the GX 1 and comes with an EF mount adapter.

Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: SpareImp on June 19, 2012, 04:56:07 PM
I’ve heard a lot of good things about the G1 X. If the mirrorless camera has the exact same sensor, what would persuade you to buy the mirrorless instead of the G1 X? Stylish design, a better viewfinder and battery? What makes it worth a possible substantial investment in new lenses? I’m a bit lost.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see, as well as hope for better news.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: TrumpetPower! on June 19, 2012, 05:00:39 PM
I guess the only way to get a mirrorless camera with FF is to dish out out $7000 - $8000 for the Leica M9, or the upcoming M10.

But why on Earth would anybody buy one of those when you could instead get a 5DIII with a Shorty McForty? You get a far better camera for half the price, one that's not much bigger, and that oh-by-the-way can mount nearly any 135-format lens ever made. Plus, it's got a real viewfinder.

b&
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: drjlo on June 19, 2012, 05:08:57 PM
Darn it Canon! you have disappointed me again! APS-C or larger!

Agree 100%, and Canon has been running a pretty good streak of disappointing us of late. 
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on June 19, 2012, 05:11:08 PM
Mirrorless cameras are a path upward for point and shoot users, not for DSLR users.   Sales are shifting from P&S to Mirrorless and DSLR sales is also growing.
 
I'm sure that there will be a adapter that lets a photographer use EF & EF-S lenses if wanted, but the whole point is to make a small interchangable lens camera, not one that needs EF lenses and is DSLR sized.
 
If it were a FF mirrorless camera that was compatible with EF lenses, it would be about the size of a current FF dslr, but without a optical viewfinder.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: preppyak on June 19, 2012, 05:19:37 PM
I was hoping for FF or APS-C size and can be used with current EF "L" lenses
Canon makes a whole line of cameras that can do that...the T4i, the 60D, the 7D, the 5dII, 5dIII, and soon, the 1DX.

If you wanted the DSLR capabilities in a mirror less sized body (like, Sony NEX size), you're dreaming. For one, the EF mount alone would make the mirror less camera the size of a T4i. The sensor would cause the same effect. Canon hasn't sized the Ti camera's up, thats about as small as they can reasonably make an APS-C sized sensor with EF mount.

While there could be some other nice features from mirror less, I haven't seen anything from the current crop (better AF, better frame rate, better video, etc) that would make me drop my DSLR and switch. And I don't expect Canon to be the one to get their first

Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: briansquibb on June 19, 2012, 05:26:46 PM
I guess the only way to get a mirrorless camera with FF is to dish out out $7000 - $8000 for the Leica M9, or the upcoming M10.

But why on Earth would anybody buy one of those when you could instead get a 5DIII with a Shorty McForty? You get a far better camera for half the price, one that's not much bigger, and that oh-by-the-way can mount nearly any 135-format lens ever made. Plus, it's got a real viewfinder.

b&

My shorty will be on my 7D instead of the kit lens. At 64mm equiv it could make a useful street combo
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: dtameling on June 19, 2012, 05:34:07 PM
A native EF/EF-S ring could be done but you'd still need a spacer to use existing EF/EF-S lenses. They could call the new lenses EF-X and design them with the short focal flange depth. These spacers already exist for macro photography...they would just need to be made with is the exact difference between the EF-X and the standard mirrored flange depth (44mm). If they made the native distance 19mm (4/3 is 19.25mm FYI), then a standard 25mm tube would work without having to manufacture anything new or special or fancy. No waiting 8 months for the adapter to hit shelves.

They would never do this of course...but then again they did make EF-S lenses that could damage a FF camera if mounted on a 5D so who knows...anything is possible.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: infared on June 19, 2012, 05:38:31 PM
I have a 5D Mark III and a lot of L glass and such...
...but I use two MicroFourThirds cameras all of the time.  I have ten lenses, all AF and 8 of them fast primes.  I have from fisheye to 350mm (equiv.).  Is the IQ and Versatility as good as my 5D ....Hell No!..BUT the images are damn good! I WOW DSLR owners with them all of the time. ..usually on a gallery wall.  No kidding. I own OM-D and GX-1 (LVF-2) bodies. They complement each other perfectly..and give the system a lot of versatility. I do not see Canon besting this. Sensor basically the same size on the new mirrorless with I am sure 3 pedestrian lenses.
I can really run out the door with a pocket full of kryptonite with some of the lens & body choices in MFT.  It is a cool, FUN "system". Really FUN!  It offers waaaaaaay more than soccer-Mom results. No doubt.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: mjbehnke on June 19, 2012, 06:09:42 PM
I’ve heard a lot of good things about the G1 X. If the mirrorless camera has the exact same sensor, what would persuade you to buy the mirrorless instead of the G1 X? Stylish design, a better viewfinder and battery? What makes it worth a possible substantial investment in new lenses? I’m a bit lost.

I guess we’ll have to wait and see, as well as hope for better news.

Because the G1X does not have an inter-changable lens. I am guessing the consumer mirrorless would be a G1X with a lens mount for different lenses.

Just my thought.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: AvTvM on June 19, 2012, 06:17:04 PM
I fully expect the lowest possible consumer-crappy mirrorless camera from Canon.
It will be a G1X with a lens mount and possibly a sorry little EVF instead of the G1X's sorry little OVF.
The lenses will be three sorry crappy kit lenses, a 28-90 equivalent f/3.5-5.6 kit zoom, a slow 40mm pancake of some sort and a slow tele zoom.

Autofocus will be dead slow like on the G1X. It will not have the hybrid FPPD-AF + CD-AF of the 650D.
fps and operational speed will be dead slow. The thing will suck in every possible way and still cost as much as a 60D.

I really hate them for it already in advance.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: FunPhotons on June 19, 2012, 06:21:38 PM
Honestly?

Thanks to the Shorty McForty, I have no interest in a mirrorless camera.

Agreed, with a camera for my wife, son, and one on the belt (S100) I'm drowning in chargers and batteries. Not to mention the old Rebel I keep with me because it's a crop body.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: cliffwang on June 19, 2012, 06:36:20 PM
I have a 5D Mark III and a lot of L glass and such...
...but I use two MicroFourThirds cameras all of the time.  I have ten lenses, all AF and 8 of them fast primes.  I have from fisheye to 350mm (equiv.).  Is the IQ and Versatility as good as my 5D ....Hell No!..BUT the images are damn good! I WOW DSLR owners with them all of the time. ..usually on a gallery wall.  No kidding. I own OM-D and GX-1 (LVF-2) bodies. They complement each other perfectly..and give the system a lot of versatility. I do not see Canon besting this. Sensor basically the same size on the new mirrorless with I am sure 3 pedestrian lenses.
I can really run out the door with a pocket full of kryptonite with some of the lens & body choices in MFT.  It is a cool, FUN "system". Really FUN!  It offers waaaaaaay more than soccer-Mom results. No doubt.
How do you like the OM-D?  I am thinking to get one for my wife.  She doesn't like my 5D2.  It's too heavy for her.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: gmrza on June 19, 2012, 07:19:46 PM
We’ve heard only little bits of info about the mirrorless camera. The most notable is mentions that it will use the same sized sensor as the G1 X, and maybe even the exact same sensor.

And there we have it! This is exactly what I predicted a couple of weeks ago! Yet another let down down from Canon is on the horizon.

I guess the only way to get a mirrorless camera with FF is to dish out out $7000 - $8000 for the Leica M9, or the upcoming M10.

Dear Canon, why have you ceased to innovate and amaze?

Given that the consumer end of the range will be targeted at P&S upgraders, I can't see anything larger in terms of sensor size than the G1X sensor (or APS-C).

I will be a bit disappointed if Canon does not use the sensor tech from the 650D - the AF in the G1X has come in for a bit of criticism, so having phase detect AF would be a good improvement.

I will probably hold out for the prosumer/pro models to be announced.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: infared on June 19, 2012, 07:37:18 PM

How do you like the OM-D?  I am thinking to get one for my wife.  She doesn't like my 5D2.  It's too heavy for her.
[/quote]

I really like that camera..I consider that my "big" MFT camera. (I have big hands and it really needs the top half of the battery grip for me. Making it a bigger package)  It really offers a lot of versatility in a small package. It's small and the lenses are small!  Pany will soon be offering a f/2.8 12-35mm zoom (24-70mm equiv.).  Put that baby on the OM-D and that would be a lot of camera in a small package with IS.
I am not a fan of the menu system..but I have found that with some time it has become a non-issue. 
For many uses it is all of he camera you need!
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: psolberg on June 19, 2012, 07:38:41 PM
well I guess that all but nails down what we already knew:

sony is the only game in town for quality mirrorless. Unlike canon/nikon, sony doesn't have a market to protec so they are not messing around and hold back on their mirrorless to protect their entry level dslr market.

I was hoping I could keep some canon gear after my switch out of their dslr system. It seems I'm going to be shooting nikon dslrs with sony NEX mirrorless.

things change huh.....
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: psolberg on June 19, 2012, 08:11:36 PM
G1X sensor is a very good center piece for their first mirrorless camera.

If there are going to be mirrorless cameras above this one then there is every chance that one of the future cameras will have an APS-C sized sensor and be an EF-S native mount, that is unless the new lens mount has lenses capable of projecting an image circle big enough for an APS-C sensor.

Remember that part of the difference between an EF/EF-S lens and those for the mirrorless is the distance from the focal point to where the image plane is expected to be for accurate distance readings.

the problem is that as soon as you say EF mount you're talking a legacy mount designed to be X distance from the sensor to clear the mirror. I expect everybody will have to dump their mirror based mounts to be able to make smaller cameras. You can always slap an adapter to mount old EF mount lenses.

I'd love to see an end to the mirror based mounts. they are unecessarily huge and too far away from the sensor.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: JurijTurnsek on June 19, 2012, 08:42:39 PM
Why do people whine about the size of DSLRs? quality has to come at a price - even if todays best quality will be available in a GoPro-sized body, a regular size DSLR would still bring quality, that is that much better.

Also, this is just an early rumor - no one said it's going to have G1X's sensor. Proof is in the pudding - pancake 40mm points towards a bigger sensor (and no new mount?)...
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: gmrza on June 19, 2012, 09:36:22 PM
Why do people whine about the size of DSLRs? quality has to come at a price - even if todays best quality will be available in a GoPro-sized body, a regular size DSLR would still bring quality, that is that much better.

Also, this is just an early rumor - no one said it's going to have G1X's sensor. Proof is in the pudding - pancake 40mm points towards a bigger sensor (and no new mount?)...

It's about use cases.  I think for most professional and a lot of enthusiast use cases, the size of a DSLR is more appropriate.  For protracted use on a large job, with a big lens attached, the format of a "large" DSLR, with a portrait grip is the most ergonomic.  IF you need higher quality than a DSLR can offer, you need to goo medium format.

For people wanting a compact camera, where size, weight, or obtrusiveness are an issue, a smaller system has a lot of benefits.  This includes some specialist professional uses (probably mainly reportage).  A smaller camera also has a lot going for it for street photography.

I think most people who want a small (mirrorless) system are not expecting the same IQ, focusing capability etc. as a 5DIII or a 1DX.  Those who are wanting a mirrorless system for a reason other than upgrading from P&S are mostly  aware that there is a compromise on quality relative to a DSLR.

For myself, I want a camera that I can easily take with while cycling, as I tend to be out and about a lot on my bike at sunrise and sunset, for air travel, and for situations where a DSLR is too obtrusive.  I would probably settle for a general purpose zoom with IS and a few of primes (wide, normal and portrait).  The system needs to be compatible with my current Speedlites (i.e. hotshoe is a must-have), and should have an adapter to use EF lenses for the odd occasion when I want to use a more specialised lens.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Wild on June 19, 2012, 10:29:51 PM
Why couldn't it be an FD-mount and offer focus peaking like the Sony's NEX line.  It would make using our old glass fun again, plus there would be a ton of cheap, but good quality glass to use already. And make an EF-mount adapter for some L-glass goodness  ;D

Oh and I really hope it's at least an APS-C sensor.  I mean they already have a sensor made that would work perfectly in the T4i, since it has the center phase detect pixels (I think) to help AF. 
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: preppyak on June 19, 2012, 11:07:21 PM
Proof is in the pudding - pancake 40mm points towards a bigger sensor (and no new mount?)...
Except why would they release a lens for a system before the system is even announced? You think they have 3 other pancake lenses lined up for a mirror less EF system?

The pancake 40mm points to Canon wanting an f/2.8 prime with the silent autofocus motor at a price that Rebel users would purchase.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: briansquibb on June 19, 2012, 11:27:37 PM
I fully expect the lowest possible consumer-crappy mirrorless camera from Canon.
It will be a G1X with a lens mount and possibly a sorry little EVF instead of the G1X's sorry little OVF.
The lenses will be three sorry crappy kit lenses, a 28-90 equivalent f/3.5-5.6 kit zoom, a slow 40mm pancake of some sort and a slow tele zoom.

Autofocus will be dead slow like on the G1X. It will not have the hybrid FPPD-AF + CD-AF of the 650D.
fps and operational speed will be dead slow. The thing will suck in every possible way and still cost as much as a 60D.

I really hate them for it already in advance.

Instead of pouring your hate into every thread why not have a more objective approach backed up with some real experience/evidence instead of just malicious rumour and gueswork?
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Wild on June 20, 2012, 12:02:31 AM
I fully expect the lowest possible consumer-crappy mirrorless camera from Canon.
It will be a G1X with a lens mount and possibly a sorry little EVF instead of the G1X's sorry little OVF.
The lenses will be three sorry crappy kit lenses, a 28-90 equivalent f/3.5-5.6 kit zoom, a slow 40mm pancake of some sort and a slow tele zoom.

Autofocus will be dead slow like on the G1X. It will not have the hybrid FPPD-AF + CD-AF of the 650D.
fps and operational speed will be dead slow. The thing will suck in every possible way and still cost as much as a 60D.

I really hate them for it already in advance.

Instead of pouring your hate into every thread why not have a more objective approach backed up with some real experience/evidence instead of just malicious rumour and gueswork?

+1

Sure some people have been a bit disappointed by their latest releases, but that doesn't mean you can't have some hope for something awesome on the horizon  :D
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Ricku on June 20, 2012, 12:12:52 AM
I fully expect the lowest possible consumer-crappy mirrorless camera from Canon.
It will be a G1X with a lens mount and possibly a sorry little EVF instead of the G1X's sorry little OVF.
The lenses will be three sorry crappy kit lenses, a 28-90 equivalent f/3.5-5.6 kit zoom, a slow 40mm pancake of some sort and a slow tele zoom.

Autofocus will be dead slow like on the G1X. It will not have the hybrid FPPD-AF + CD-AF of the 650D.
fps and operational speed will be dead slow. The thing will suck in every possible way and still cost as much as a 60D.

I really hate them for it already in advance.

Instead of pouring your hate into every thread why not have a more objective approach backed up with some real experience/evidence instead of just malicious rumour and gueswork?

+1

Sure some people have been a bit disappointed by their latest releases, but that doesn't mean you can't have some hope for something awesome on the horizon  :D
Kinda hard to have hope after the 5D3 sensor, and now this.

But yeah, otherwise I agree with you.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: maxxevv on June 20, 2012, 12:14:01 AM

Instead of pouring your hate into every thread why not have a more objective approach backed up with some real experience/evidence instead of just malicious rumour and gueswork?

That's so true indeed.

BT topic.

I think this would make sense that they are looking at an 'entry' MIL camera with the G1X sensor. It has the right attributes that an P&S upgrader would want.

i) It has proven to take really good quality pictures on the G1x.
ii) Its aspect ratio would allow for really compact lenses. Probably something not much larger than what we see on the G1x for the same aperture and focal length range.
iii) It would keep the costs of such a system down, thus more attractive to P&S upgraders.
iv) Its 'upward compatible' with EF mount as well as EF-S lenses. In short make a good back-up camera/secondary travel camera for people who already own EF / EF-S glass with an adaptor.
v) It leaves room for the APS-C sensors of the DSLR cameras.
vi) It leaves room for a separate line of MIL cameras that clearly differentiates itself in the market. Which Canon has tried and proven quite a few times in history. Such as the original Rebel, the 5D, the G1x, the G-series powershots.  Possibly an APS-H or even FF MIL camera if they determine there is strong enough a demand for them down the line.

Of course, many of us on this forum would want something that's of higher specifications but economically, its not really so viable for Canon if the market for something 'higher end' is not deemed to be strong enough at the moment.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: wickidwombat on June 20, 2012, 12:16:48 AM
um whats wrong with the 5Dmk3 sensor? other than not being eleventy billion pixels
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Ricku on June 20, 2012, 12:32:03 AM
um whats wrong with the 5Dmk3 sensor? other than not being eleventy billion pixels
A bit off topic, but let's see now.

* Yes, no bump in resolution.
* Almost no improvement in dynamic range (no improvement at all @ lower ISO settings).
* Canon failed to completely fix the issue with banding.
* The only strength 5D3 sensor has over the 5D2 is in the extreme ISO settings. (which I never use anyway).

Nikon on the other hand, they did all of it and then some!

I am not saying that the 5D3 is a bad camera, but people upgrading from 5D2 to 5D3 are basically paying $3500 for upgraded (fixed) AF, built in HDR and a rate button.

The sensor is just meeh..



Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: wickidwombat on June 20, 2012, 12:34:13 AM
um whats wrong with the 5Dmk3 sensor? other than not being eleventy billion pixels
Well let's see now.

* There were no bump in resolution.
* Almost no improvement in dynamic range (no improvement at all @ lower ISO settings).
* Canon failed to completely fix the issue with banding.
* The only strength 5D3 sensor has over the 5D2 is on the extreme ISO settings. (which I never use anyway).

Nikon on the other hand, they did all of it and then some!

I am not saying that the 5D3 is a bad camera, but people upgrading from 5D2 to 5D3 are basically paying $3500 for upgraded (fixed) AF, built in HDR and a rate button.

so you own one do you? or are you just regurgitating the tired old internet waffle that is continuously being regurgitated as absolute fact?
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: briansquibb on June 20, 2012, 12:42:04 AM
um whats wrong with the 5Dmk3 sensor? other than not being eleventy billion pixels
A bit off topic, but let's see now.

* Yes, no bump in resolution.
* Almost no improvement in dynamic range (no improvement at all @ lower ISO settings).
* Canon failed to completely fix the issue with banding.
* The only strength 5D3 sensor has over the 5D2 is in the extreme ISO settings. (which I never use anyway).

Nikon on the other hand, they did all of it and then some!

I am not saying that the 5D3 is a bad camera, but people upgrading from 5D2 to 5D3 are basically paying $3500 for upgraded (fixed) AF, built in HDR and a rate button.

The sensor is just meeh..

I think your analysis of the 5DIII is rather like saying a D800 is an upgrade of a D700 - totally off mark.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Ricku on June 20, 2012, 12:47:55 AM
um whats wrong with the 5Dmk3 sensor? other than not being eleventy billion pixels
Well let's see now.

* There were no bump in resolution.
* Almost no improvement in dynamic range (no improvement at all @ lower ISO settings).
* Canon failed to completely fix the issue with banding.
* The only strength 5D3 sensor has over the 5D2 is on the extreme ISO settings. (which I never use anyway).

Nikon on the other hand, they did all of it and then some!

I am not saying that the 5D3 is a bad camera, but people upgrading from 5D2 to 5D3 are basically paying $3500 for upgraded (fixed) AF, built in HDR and a rate button.

so you own one do you? or are you just regurgitating the tired old internet waffle that is continuously being regurgitated as absolute fact?
::)

Lack of arguments huh? Don't know what to say in defense? I can see why, because there is nothing to say.

No, of course I do not own a 5D3. Why would I?

However, I have tried it, and my conclusion is the same as most other's (except the hardcore fanboys). The 5D3 is a good camera, just like the 5D2, but with no sensor improvement. It pales in comparison to the main competitions latest offering (the D800).

Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Ricku on June 20, 2012, 12:49:30 AM
um whats wrong with the 5Dmk3 sensor? other than not being eleventy billion pixels
Well let's see now.

* There were no bump in resolution.
* Almost no improvement in dynamic range (no improvement at all @ lower ISO settings).
* Canon failed to completely fix the issue with banding.
* The only strength 5D3 sensor has over the 5D2 is on the extreme ISO settings. (which I never use anyway).

Nikon on the other hand, they did all of it and then some!

I am not saying that the 5D3 is a bad camera, but people upgrading from 5D2 to 5D3 are basically paying $3500 for upgraded (fixed) AF, built in HDR and a rate button.

so you own one do you? or are you just regurgitating the tired old internet waffle that is continuously being regurgitated as absolute fact?
::)

Lack of arguments huh? Don't know what to say in defense? I can see why, because there is nothing to say.

No, I do not own a 5D3. Why would I?

However, I have tried it, and my conclusion is the same as most other's (except the hardcore fanboys). The 5D3 is a good camera, just like the 5D2, but with no sensor improvement. It's sensor pales in comparison to the main competitions latest offering (the D800).


I think your analysis of the 5DIII is rather like saying a D800 is an upgrade of a D700 - totally off mark.
Nope. The D800 is the true successor of the 5D2. Too bad it has a Nikon-badge on it.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Gcon on June 20, 2012, 12:51:11 AM
New mount? Small sensor?

EPIC FAIL!
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: wickidwombat on June 20, 2012, 12:51:29 AM
um whats wrong with the 5Dmk3 sensor? other than not being eleventy billion pixels
Well let's see now.

* There were no bump in resolution.
* Almost no improvement in dynamic range (no improvement at all @ lower ISO settings).
* Canon failed to completely fix the issue with banding.
* The only strength 5D3 sensor has over the 5D2 is on the extreme ISO settings. (which I never use anyway).

Nikon on the other hand, they did all of it and then some!

I am not saying that the 5D3 is a bad camera, but people upgrading from 5D2 to 5D3 are basically paying $3500 for upgraded (fixed) AF, built in HDR and a rate button.

so you own one do you? or are you just regurgitating the tired old internet waffle that is continuously being regurgitated as absolute fact?
::)

Lack of arguments huh? Don't know what to say in defense? I can see why, because there is nothing to say.

No, of course I do not own a 5D3. Why would I?

However, I have tried it, and my conclusion is the same as most other's (except the hardcore fanboys). The 5D3 is a good camera, just like the 5D2, but with no sensor improvement. It pales in comparison to the main competitions latest offering (the D800).
why not take your black and gold pom poms and head on over to nikon rumours instead of trolling about here with canon users and our inferior camera who are clearly incapable of producing the wonders that can come from the D800  ::)
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Ricku on June 20, 2012, 12:58:19 AM
why not take your black and gold pom poms and head on over to nikon rumours instead of trolling about here with canon users and our inferior camera who are clearly incapable of producing the wonders that can come from the D800
Thank you for strengthening my distaste in narrow minded fanboys. You do see everything in black and white, don't you?

Everyone who doesn't love Canon's latest camera must be a Nikon troll, right?  ::)
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: briansquibb on June 20, 2012, 01:15:00 AM
why not take your black and gold pom poms and head on over to nikon rumours instead of trolling about here with canon users and our inferior camera who are clearly incapable of producing the wonders that can come from the D800
Thank you for strengthening my distaste in narrow minded fanboys. You do see everything in black and white, don't you?

Everyone who doesn't love Canon's latest camera must be a Nikon troll, right?  ::)

I appreciate balanced and logical discussion but to make the comment

Quote

Kinda hard to have hope after the 5D3 sensor,


does rather make it sound like there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor ie a fact

If instead you had said something along the lines of

"The 5DIII sensor appears to have fallen behind the D800 sensor" then that would have been a valid opinion

Personally I dont care what camera anyone has - I have switched before and I will again if there is a valid reason.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: wickidwombat on June 20, 2012, 01:18:07 AM
why not take your black and gold pom poms and head on over to nikon rumours instead of trolling about here with canon users and our inferior camera who are clearly incapable of producing the wonders that can come from the D800
Thank you for strengthening my distaste in narrow minded fanboys. You do see everything in black and white, don't you?

Everyone who doesn't love Canon's latest camera must be a Nikon troll, right?  ::)

while hardly a fan boy i sent my first 5Dmk3 back because it was not functioning correctly my new one is great for my needs

the main arguements you use to deem the 5Dmk3 sensor as rubbish are the same tired ones used by people that pour over dxo reports and actually dont shoot with the camera

the whole D800 has a higher DXO DR score is getting really tired

If the D800 suits you so much why not go get one and go shoot badgers exiting their hole into a rising sun and bask in the 14 stops of DR.

People get all worked up like its the end of the world because Nikon might have made a better camera
really who cares if it is better. And if it is better the difference is pretty marginal in reallity. Just go get one and be happy you are better than canon wielding plebs

But turning every single thread into a Troll fest of Noink has uber DR canon is rubbish is far beyond tiresome
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: maxxevv on June 20, 2012, 01:23:26 AM
Thank you for strengthening my distaste in narrow minded fanboys. You do see everything in black and white, don't you?
Everyone who doesn't love Canon's latest camera must be a Nikon troll, right?  ::)

Not everyone. But its just the way you word things that turn people off.

Its the same as the old story of people bashing the 5DII's AF based on not more than 20 shots on the camera. And people praising to the high heavens the D300s and D700's 51 pt AF being the be-all and end-all based on numerical specifications.

If you have spent sufficient time ( and that I mean many months and at least 10,000 deliberate and planned shots) with these cameras, much of these can be debunked. I have spent plenty of time on my 5DII and my friend's D300s to say that these stories were all off the mark.  The 5DII has a very capable AF, if you know the limitations of the lenses you're using and also the frame-rate as I shoot mostly sport with it. The D300s though it has 51 pts in theory, you can't really use all of them except for 'not so fast moving' objects in really good light.  Else you'll have to dumb down the number of useable points to achieve the predictability and speed of response of what's built-in as default on the 7D for comparison. In fact, in really poor light, the 5DII was a lot more responsive and predictable as compared to the D300s with full 51pts enabled.

Likewise your tone on 5DIII and D800 comparison. Have you spent similar amounts of time and shooting experience with both cameras to have explored all the strengths and flaws of both cameras to compare ? If not, you're pretty much trolling off others heresy from the web. SHOUTING on forums doesn't make you heard ... it just turns people off like in any normal conversation.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Rocky on June 20, 2012, 01:42:39 AM
If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the G1-X. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the G1-X, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the G1-X. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the G1-X or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Neeneko on June 20, 2012, 02:03:59 AM
If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the GX-1. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the GX-1, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the GX-1. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the Gx-1 or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.

Probably is just a rumor, or at minimal is part rumor, but everything in it sounds plausible from a marketing perspective if your goal is to introduce a camera designed to do what everyone else is doing (including yourself) but with your own brand on it.   Marketing is filled with misguided attempts to compete in new spaces by throwing in an undifferentiated but branded entry... it is more about having a horse in the race then trying to actually win.. which isn't a good idea, but Canon has such a market dominance right now they probably are not too worried... and that can be bad.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: moreorless on June 20, 2012, 03:15:43 AM
If this rumor is true, It will be a disaster. It will have slow AF as the GX-1. It will have worst picture quality than the Rebel. It will be bigger than the GX-1, due to the lens is outside of the body. It will be more expensive than the GX-1. This camera is aiming at consumer. They will be better off either buying the Gx-1 or the Rebel. I just hope that this is really a rumor.

There have been rumours of Canon on sensor Phase AF so I wouldnt be supprized if we see it on the mirrorless.

The G1X was following on from a line of cameras that have always had "chucky" bodies with large manual controls and an OVF, I wouldnt say it follows that a mirrorless will go the same direction.

I think we can see with the Nikon 1 that a big brand + mirrorless = sales even if the product is inferior in many peoples eyes and very highly priced, thats why I'd expect an entry level mirrorless first from Canon.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: AvTvM on June 20, 2012, 04:13:07 AM
...
However, I have tried it, and my conclusion is the same as most other's (except the hardcore fanboys). The 5D3 is a good camera, just like the 5D2, but with no sensor improvement. It's sensor pales in comparison to the main competitions latest offering (the D800).

I think your analysis of the 5DIII is rather like saying a D800 is an upgrade of a D700 - totally off mark.
Nope. The D800 is the true successor of the 5D2. Too bad it has a Nikon-badge on it.

Exactly! 
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: AvTvM on June 20, 2012, 04:24:22 AM
Quote
Kinda hard to have hope after the 5D3 sensor,
does rather make it sound like there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor ie a fact
If instead you had said something along the lines of
"The 5DIII sensor appears to have fallen behind the D800 sensor" then that would have been a valid opinion
Nothing "appears to be" ... there is plenty of visual evidence available showing that there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor:
* it HAS seriously less DR than the D800's sensor in DR from ISO 100 all the way up to ISO3200.
* it HAS seriously less resolution than the D800 at all ISO settings.  :P
* it IS only a minor update on the 3+ year old 5D2 sensor.
Facts, not fiction, whether Canon fanboys like it or not. 

It is not a fact yet, but well founded speculation, that the upcoming Canon mirrorless will be nothing more than a G1X with a lens mount. Like the G1X it will likely deliver better IQ than P&S but I do not expect it to beat the best mFT mirrorless entires ... eg. Oly OM-D. Performance, AF, responsiveness and UI will  "consumer-crappy" - as on the G1X.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: AvTvM on June 20, 2012, 06:35:37 AM
The G1X sensor is the best in its class, so I don't know what you're worried about.
it is easy to be "best in class" if class size equals 1, right?

The G1X sensor size is a totally unnecessary oddity. Other alternatives would have been far preferable - and even more so on a coming mirrorless:

A) Either a sensor fully within the mFT specs ... a Canon mirrorless with mFT-sensor and mFT-mount in front to utilize any mFT lens on the market would be really cool. Then we could see, whether Canon can build better small-sensored mirrorless system cameras than Olympus an dPanasonic!

B) Or - if it has to be "proprietary Canon" rather than "open-standard mFT", then a 3:2 APS-C sensor. If Sony can fit an APS-C sensor into a NEX-sized body, Canon outta be able to stick an APS-C sensor inton the more bulky G1X body. AS a matter of fact, I would have liked to see the new EOS 650D sensor with Hybrid-AF in the G1X and in Canon's mirrorless - as long as they are not able and willing to build a truly "class-leading" Hi-End FF mirrorless.

But no ... its gotta be Canon-proprietary, odd and very likely inferior to competitive products.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: psolberg on June 20, 2012, 06:41:41 AM
It is not a fact yet, but well founded speculation, that the upcoming Canon mirrorless will be nothing more than a G1X with a lens mount. Like the G1X it will likely deliver better IQ than P&S but I do not expect it to beat the best mFT mirrorless entires ... eg. Oly OM-D. Performance, AF, responsiveness and UI will  "consumer-crappy" - as on the G1X.

The G1X sensor is the best in its class, so I don't know what you're worried about.

Oh, except that Canon will keep using the same sensor (or minor variations thereof) for the next 3 to 5 years...

G1X sensor is small. 1.9X crop factor. that's quite a bit smaller than APS-C but slightly larger than m4/3 (crop factor 2x). That's the worry. I would have rather see a sony NEX competitor with an APS-C. If canon opts G1X sensor size, sony will pretty much become the system to go to if you want the ultimate quality in a mirrorless body. That assumes off course that Nikon doesn't put out an APSC based system since their CX system is aimed more at the point and shoot market than at any person that cares for image quality.

Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: maxxevv on June 20, 2012, 07:38:58 AM

So we'll have to wait and see if Canon bring out a competitor to the NEX-7 because this first camera is not going to be it.

Agreed.

Mass market is where the money is, and making money more often than not has been Canon's priority. So, its highly plausible that they will want to target something that they can push numbers. Quickly. And as odd as it sounds, a high-spec MIL camera is by general consideration to be 'niche' ..

As much as its a dream for me that there's an EF-mount FF MIL camera, that's highly unlikely to happen for a while. Because the market hasn't been saturated to the point that such a segregation niche is required at this point in time. Well, at least that's what I think Canon is considering. 

But who knows, they may very well spring a surprise on us ??  :o
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: briansquibb on June 20, 2012, 08:22:54 AM
Quote
Kinda hard to have hope after the 5D3 sensor,
does rather make it sound like there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor ie a fact
If instead you had said something along the lines of
"The 5DIII sensor appears to have fallen behind the D800 sensor" then that would have been a valid opinion
Nothing "appears to be" ... there is plenty of visual evidence available showing that there IS a problem with the 5D3 sensor:
* it HAS seriously less DR than the D800's sensor in DR from ISO 100 all the way up to ISO3200.
* it HAS seriously less resolution than the D800 at all ISO settings.  :P
* it IS only a minor update on the 3+ year old 5D2 sensor.
Facts, not fiction, whether Canon fanboys like it or not. 


There is nothing wrong with the 5DIII sensor - it does what it promises to do.

You may think the D800 sensor is better - however that does not alter the fact that the 5DIII does its job as promised on the spec sheet.

In my opinion you are intentionally trolling the forum

Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Neeneko on June 20, 2012, 08:28:33 AM
If the one being introduced by Canon is just the consumer end then not having APS-C is perfectly fine as neither do any of the other entry level mirrorless cameras.

This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Rocky on June 20, 2012, 12:26:09 PM
If the one being introduced by Canon is just the consumer end then not having APS-C is perfectly fine as neither do any of the other entry level mirrorless cameras.

This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.
Agree. The differentiation between "consumer", and "prosumer" level should be feature, not sensor size. Plus developing TWO seperate system based on sensor size is EXPENSIVE. Canon should start mirrorless with APS-C sensor with "basic" features for consumer and more features and weather sealing for prosumers.  NEX 7 exists because people wants better IQ than the M4/3. Sony also made NEX 5N for "consumer".
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: c.d.embrey on June 20, 2012, 01:25:55 PM
One advantage Canon has over most others is their amazing EF and EF-S lens selection. 

This amazing lens selection is the reason I've switched my FFFilm cameras for Canon to Nikon. And when I replace my DSLRs at the end of the year, I doubt it will be with new Canon DSLRs.

I'm waiting to see the Canon Mirrorless, before I decide what mirrorless system to buy into. The Olympus E-M5 has great IQ and a selection of lenses that get better day. Schneider has announce that they will make their ultra high quality lenses in M43 mount. The main problem with the E-M5 is the Fugly Retro Design -- hope Canon can do better.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: fifowarehouse on June 20, 2012, 04:19:52 PM

For mirroless, I was hoping for bigger sensor like APS-C or FF.  Be able to shoot under low light like 5D III is AWESOME.
 
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Rocky on June 20, 2012, 04:55:39 PM

For mirroless, I was hoping for bigger sensor like APS-C or FF.  Be able to shoot under low light like 5D III is AWESOME.
One of the advantage of "mirrorless" is that it allow at least one if two step of slower shutter speed due to the lack of mirror movement. If canon put a small sensor in their "mirrorless" and force user to go into lower ISO in low light. That will take this advantage away.  What is Canon's marketing/Engineering thinking???
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: moreorless on June 20, 2012, 05:31:06 PM
This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

My guess is the Canon mirrorless will be around the xxxxD price point at the very least and I do think the brand is a massive factor in that.

Really I think most of the key innovations for mirrorless right now are out there already, whats really needed is a system that can combine the size of m43, the image quality of the NEX and the AF of the Nikon. We know Canon can provide a sensor not far off the NEX and rumours do tend to suggest there looking at on sensor phase AF plus lens space saving with a very short backfrocus distance.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: gmrza on June 20, 2012, 06:38:58 PM
This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

My guess is the Canon mirrorless will be around the xxxxD price point at the very least and I do think the brand is a massive factor in that.

Really I think most of the key innovations for mirrorless right now are out there already, whats really needed is a system that can combine the size of m43, the image quality of the NEX and the AF of the Nikon. We know Canon can provide a sensor not far off the NEX and rumours do tend to suggest there looking at on sensor phase AF plus lens space saving with a very short backfrocus distance.

I have a suspicion that larger sensors have proved a challenge because of the fact that when you make the flange to focal plane distance smaller, the light arriving at the sensor is coming from an increasingly oblique angle.  Leica has solved this challenge with offset/angled micro-lenses, a technique which it has patented.  That means that other manufacturers need to come up with another idea, or license the Leica patent - which I'm sure will cost lots of $$$.  The general approach to deal with this problem to date has been to make the sensor smaller.

I hope Canon manages to solve this challenge.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Rocky on June 21, 2012, 03:08:21 AM
This is exactly why I think Canon should bring out a FF, APS-H, or at least APS-C.  This is (at least in part) the mistake Nikon made... when entering a tangental market, you generally do not want to go in with 'hey, our offering is about as good as established player's midrange offerings.  You generally want to introduce something that will counter the existing inertia, something people will pay attention to.  As it stands (at least according to the rumor mill) it sounds like the primary differentiation for Canon's mirrorless is that it is made by Canon.

Granted branding is important, but I would wager the people who tend to really care about the brand are the ones going for the higher end (xxxxD and above) lines, not the lower ones.  Hitting them first would build some reputation in the new domain.

My guess is the Canon mirrorless will be around the xxxxD price point at the very least and I do think the brand is a massive factor in that.

Really I think most of the key innovations for mirrorless right now are out there already, whats really needed is a system that can combine the size of m43, the image quality of the NEX and the AF of the Nikon. We know Canon can provide a sensor not far off the NEX and rumours do tend to suggest there looking at on sensor phase AF plus lens space saving with a very short backfrocus distance.

I have a suspicion that larger sensors have proved a challenge because of the fact that when you make the flange to focal plane distance smaller, the light arriving at the sensor is coming from an increasingly oblique angle.  Leica has solved this challenge with offset/angled micro-lenses, a technique which it has patented.  That means that other manufacturers need to come up with another idea, or license the Leica patent - which I'm sure will cost lots of $$$.  The general approach to deal with this problem to date has been to make the sensor smaller.

I hope Canon manages to solve this challenge.
Let us look at the three APS-C mirrorless, Sam sung NX and Sony  Nex 7 and NEX5N.  all have lens flange at about 25 to 26 mm. APS-C has diagonal of 22.2mm. That is a ratio of 0.89. let us look at Canon 5D with lens flange of 44mm. FF diagonal is 43.3 mm. that is ratio of 0.98. In other word APS-C mirrorless already has a easier time than the 5D for the light ray to be more perpendicular than the 5D. Therefore there is no reason why Canon cannot do a mirrorless with the lens flange about 25mm.  Canon does not need to do anything special to the sensor. If the T4i already has phase detector built in on the sensor. that seems to b a longical choice to be used in canon mirrorless.  M9 has a lens flabge of 27.8mm. the sensor diagonal to flange has a ration of  1.55!! That is why M9 needed the offset microlenses
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: SiliconVoid on June 21, 2012, 04:31:54 AM
I will offer a prediction from the perspective of what Canon 'should' do:
Even if you take into consideration how popular/saturated this product category is, and the success other manufacturers have had, if Canon comes up with some new f'd up lens mount this endeavor will fail.

Oh sure, there will be those fans who will buy one because they love Canon, and they can show off their ~Canon~ mirrorless body to all their friends who already have one of another brand - but for others who already own a few $K worth of 'normal' lenses (like myself) there is no benefit or incentive to buy into another proprietary mounting system. One we all know ahead of time will never see the selection of lenses Canon already has in the EF/EF-S mount.

The best thing Canon could do in this arena (something no other manufacturer has done) is to make the body fully compatible with their existing lenses - period.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Rocky on June 21, 2012, 04:40:43 AM
I will offer a prediction from the perspective of what Canon 'should' do:
Even if you take into consideration how popular/saturated this product category is, and the success other manufacturers have had, if Canon comes up with some new f'd up lens mount this endeavor will fail.

Oh sure, there will be those fans who will buy one because they love Canon, and they can show off their ~Canon~ mirrorless body to all their friends who already have one of another brand - but for others who already own a few $K worth of 'normal' lenses (like myself) there is no benefit or incentive to buy into another proprietary mounting system. One we all know ahead of time will never see the selection of lenses Canon already has in the EF/EF-S mount.

The best thing Canon could do in this arena (something no other manufacturer has done) is to make the body fully compatible with their existing lenses - period.
That is exactly what Pentax has done with the K-01. It is a DSLR without the mirror.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: traveller on June 21, 2012, 05:40:23 AM
I will offer a prediction from the perspective of what Canon 'should' do:
Even if you take into consideration how popular/saturated this product category is, and the success other manufacturers have had, if Canon comes up with some new f'd up lens mount this endeavor will fail.

Oh sure, there will be those fans who will buy one because they love Canon, and they can show off their ~Canon~ mirrorless body to all their friends who already have one of another brand - but for others who already own a few $K worth of 'normal' lenses (like myself) there is no benefit or incentive to buy into another proprietary mounting system. One we all know ahead of time will never see the selection of lenses Canon already has in the EF/EF-S mount.

The best thing Canon could do in this arena (something no other manufacturer has done) is to make the body fully compatible with their existing lenses - period.
That is exactly what Pentax has done with the K-01. It is a DSLR without the mirror.

And most reviewers agree that the K-01 is a pointless camera that is not much smaller than a DSLR but has all the disadvantages of mirrorless cameras.  There has been plenty written in this thread and others about flange back distances and the effect they have on body size and lens requirements, so I will not repeat it here.  The point is that it makes no sense for Canon to use the EF mount for their mirrorless camera. 

This is why Canon has no advantage over any of the other manufacturers going into this new market (unlike the momentum the EF mount gave them during the digital revolution).  The new mirrorless camera must therefore be strong in its own right and there must be a good selection of lenses at launch, along with a clear roadmap that they can stick to. 

So far, none of the other systems have got this quite right.  Micro 4/3rds has the advantage of the best lens selection, but Panasonic lost momentum with sensor development and both they and Olympus lost imagination with their bodies.  Samsung have a good plan, but a poor sensor and their system lacks stand out features.  Sony have launched some great bodies, but the lenses have been lacking.  The Nikon 1 system built up sales quickly, but is risking losing momentum if there are not more lenses and more enthusiast specified cameras soon. 

These weaknesses are rapidly being addressed by most of the mirrorless manufacturers and Canon need to act soon and decisively if they are to secure enough market share to make their system viable.  To succeed in what is now a very crowded market, Canon either need to do something special, or to get everything right (in no particular order: EVF, AF, handling/ergonomics/responsiveness, size, lenses, price).  I don't think that relying upon their brand name will be enough, considering how late their entry into the market will now be. 

I am increasingly concerned that the mirrorless market is becoming saturated and confused with all these new systems and I think that a number of them will not survive long term.  Right now, I wouldn't bet my money on Nikon 1, Samsung NX, or anything that Pentax is currently offering; micro 4/3rds, Sony NEX look like the winning systems.  Canon has an uphill battle to win market share, their system better be outstanding. 
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: moreorless on June 21, 2012, 06:03:21 AM
You look at just how strong sales of the Nikon 1 system was dispite all its limations and I think its pretty clear Canon are going to sell alot of whatever they release provided its in anyway competitive. The main negative of the Nikon system seems to be that they look to have deliberately hamstrung its potential to protect DSLR sales with the smaller sensor that doesnt save any space.

Getting everything in one body doesnt seem all that difficult to me personally, we know the ASPCish sensor is there are performs well(vs the Sony its spilting hairs for the target market IMHO) and we also know that on sensor phase AF exists albeit largely untested. The main unknown is I'd say lens support, how good and how small can they get, there was that patent for an 18-55mm kit lens with a 10mm backfocus distance that seems to suggest canon maybe looking to try something new here.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: AvTvM on June 21, 2012, 07:28:06 AM
The best thing Canon could do in this arena (something no other manufacturer has done) is to make the body fully compatible with their existing lenses - period.
That is exactly what Pentax has done with the K-01. It is a DSLR without the mirror.
[/quote]

exactly.

Question is, what is preferable: a mirrorless that is
a) bulky like a DSLR in order to continue using existing - big! - lenses
b) compact body plus new, compact lenses plus full compatibility with existing existing lenses via adapter

Clear and overwhelming preference in the market is type b)

I would love to see one or all of the following mirrorless systems from Canon:

1.) 5D 3 in a smaller body aka "the Leica M9 killer
The very best imaginable FF-sensored mirrorless. Size between Minolta CLE and Leica M9, excellent FF sensor with fast Hybrid-AF (with FPPD-AF as in EOS 650D), incredibly good state of the art EVF, fast, responsive, fully weather-sealed, fully pro grade body, radio wireless controller built in instead of popo-up flash. Think of a
5D 3 in a much smaller form factor without mirror box and prism. Price of course similar to 5D 3.
Lens mount is really easy: Canon EM ... an electrified Leica M-mount, backwards compatible with all the great and ultra-compact manual focus M-mount lenses. Plus a small selection of new, digitally optimized Canon M lenses: 2 ultra compact highest optical grade zooms .. 24-60mmf/4, 50-135mm/4 plus 24/2.0, 35/1.8, 40/2.8 pancake, 50/1.4, 85/1.8 as ultra-compact fixed focals, all ultra-extra nano-coated and all sorts of ED, UHDand aspherical glass in them for stunning optical quality. Plus a "EF-to-M" adapter with full Canon lens protocol and AF, IS functionality  ... basically a small EF+EM-extension tube - but call it "mirrorless pancake adapter", price it at 199,-  and it will sell like hotcakes. :-)

2. 7D performance in a very small package - aka "the NEX-9 killer"
Similarly well featured, but ASP-C sensor. Body size like Sony NEX. Same mount and lenses as the Leica killer. Same pancake adapter. On this one you can not only use EF- but of course also EF-S lenses with full functionality.

3. - aka "the killer mFT "
yes that's right. Forget about another proprietary Canon mount. Just build a compact mFT body with clearly the best sensor, image quality and AF, speed, performance and EVF on the market plus a few killer Canon mFT-lenses, that quality-minded Oly and Pana users will also happily purchase. 


Unfortunately I expect Canon to take the follwing alternative:

4. lame sub-mFT mirrorless ... aka "the Canon crappy-consumer mirrorless"
Sub-mFT sensor-size (G1X) consumer-level body with features and capabilities at best at EOS xxxxD level at twice the price. Along with some crappy cheap and dark consumer kit lenses.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: moreorless on June 21, 2012, 07:53:28 AM
The problem with releasing a more high end system is I'd say that such users are also much less willing to compromise, look at the moaning Fuji have had to deal with for the focusing on the X1/X100 for example.

Such a system needs to hit the ground running and to achieve that releasing lower end bodies first seems like the best way forward to me,
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: traveller on June 21, 2012, 10:24:14 AM
The problem with releasing a more high end system is I'd say that such users are also much less willing to compromise, look at the moaning Fuji have had to deal with for the focusing on the X1/X100 for example.

Such a system needs to hit the ground running and to achieve that releasing lower end bodies first seems like the best way forward to me,

I think that people are complaining because the af is below-par for mirrorless cameras and these models are at the top end of their price ranges.  Don't forget that for all the fancy viewfinder technology on these Fuji cameras, there is no rangefinder.  Manual focusing can only be achieved by using the EVF/LCD and neither camera has focus peaking.   You are therefore stuck with using the accurate but slow 10x magnification feature, or using zone focusing (i.e. educated guesswork). 
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Neeneko on June 21, 2012, 10:42:02 AM
I think that people are complaining because the af is below-par for mirrorless cameras and these models are at the top end of their price ranges.  Don't forget that for all the fancy viewfinder technology on these Fuji cameras, there is no rangefinder.  Manual focusing can only be achieved by using the EVF/LCD and neither camera has focus peaking.   You are therefore stuck with using the accurate but slow 10x magnification feature, or using zone focusing (i.e. educated guesswork).

You know... Canon could potentially make a splash if they marketed a mirrorless entry to segments that don't care about AF in the first place.  If mirrorless has this weakness, pump up the strengths these people do care about and watch them fly off the shelves.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: dtameling on June 21, 2012, 01:01:43 PM
The problem with releasing a more high end system is I'd say that such users are also much less willing to compromise, look at the moaning Fuji have had to deal with for the focusing on the X1/X100 for example.

Such a system needs to hit the ground running and to achieve that releasing lower end bodies first seems like the best way forward to me,

I think that people are complaining because the af is below-par for mirrorless cameras and these models are at the top end of their price ranges.  Don't forget that for all the fancy viewfinder technology on these Fuji cameras, there is no rangefinder.  Manual focusing can only be achieved by using the EVF/LCD and neither camera has focus peaking.   You are therefore stuck with using the accurate but slow 10x magnification feature, or using zone focusing (i.e. educated guesswork).

The NEX-7 has focus peaking. I doubt I'll buy a camera again which doesn't have this feature...it more than makes up for the short comings of an EVF and makes my NEX the camera I reach for for video over my 7D almost every time now.

Who cares how many AF points there are and how fast it is when I can see which parts of the entire frame are in or out of focus, AND instant real time DOF preview...that's an amazing plus for me...and it's on all the time. I don't have to change modes, switch AF points, and worry about those things while shooting...very intuitive. Manually focusing is slower, but if you're careful about your shots you don't miss any more than with AF.

That said, I've used it plenty with autofocus too (including for sports) and while it's not lightning fast, it's better than most people give it credit for and has yet to leave me wanting for something faster. Most of the people who are poo-pooing the AF likely haven't used it...certainly not in a real world situation.
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: SiliconVoid on June 22, 2012, 08:58:46 PM
Other manufacturers have already shown that a super-zoom for a mirrorless body isn't all that small at all..
There is no reason Canon has to make the body any larger than anyone else just use the same EF mount.
As for small lenses we can snap on the new 40mm (and what I am sure will be a few more to come) or any of the other small primes.
When the time comes for a bigger zoom, I would prefer to use any of the L lenses I have now (at their full AF/Metering functionality) than wait for some new hybrid mount super zoom that is going to extend out like a telescope anyway....
Title: Re: Canon's Mirrorless Entry
Post by: Danielle on June 22, 2012, 10:58:43 PM
Well I thought the new Olympus om-d em5 was actually pretty interesting. If canon comes out with one which rivals it, with a much bigger sensor as the oly is a tiny four thirds, it could be a big win. Wether I'd be interested in one or not is a completely different matter though.