canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on June 28, 2012, 06:28:22 PM

Title: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on June 28, 2012, 06:28:22 PM
The prosumer market up next?
Now that Canon has addressed the “professional” space with the 5D Mark III, 1D X & 1D C (Yes, I know some want the big megapixel camera), it could be time to turn our attention to the “prosumer” space. We keep hearing bits of information about what’s planned for the segment in the coming months.

The 70D
The latest I have heard, and spoken about before, is that we’ll see the 70D move up the line. It’ll be specced close to the current 7D, however with a new higher megapixel APS-C sensor.

The 7D X
The rumor that won’t go away is that the APS-H sensor will return to the Canon lineup and fit between the 70D and 5D Mark III. Is it really possible? Maybe. I don’t think Canon needs more APS-C cameras beyond the Rebel, a 70D and possibly a mirrorless entry.

cr

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: RLPhoto on June 28, 2012, 06:30:31 PM
This points to the 7DII being APS-H. 8)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Etienne on June 28, 2012, 06:34:17 PM
APSH 7DII sounds good to me
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on June 28, 2012, 06:43:39 PM
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 28, 2012, 06:47:56 PM
There will be a rush on egg face washes if the 7DII tuns out to be a 1.3  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on June 28, 2012, 06:49:37 PM
I don’t think Canon needs more APS-C cameras beyond the Rebel, a 70D and possibly a mirrorless entry

oooh I bet you are glad for having turned karma off now i can hear all the virtual smites falling from the wrath of the crop crowd :P

oh yeah i almost forgot

APS-H, APS-H, APS-H!!!!

and yeah calling it a 7DX gets around the naming issues with the sensor size change too... Nice
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on June 28, 2012, 06:53:23 PM
There will be a rush on egg face washes if the 7DII tuns out to be a 1.3  8) 8) 8)

I'll happily wipe it off and purchase a 7DII, it that turns out to be the case. Hey, I said they'd never put 1-series AF in the 5DIII, and if I wasn't getting a 1D X I'd already have a 5DIII.  Wrong or right, there's no losing here...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on June 28, 2012, 06:57:52 PM
I don’t think Canon needs more APS-C cameras beyond the Rebel, a 70D and possibly a mirrorless entry.

+1000.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 28, 2012, 07:00:48 PM
There will be a rush on egg face washes if the 7DII tuns out to be a 1.3  8) 8) 8)

I'll happily wipe it off and purchase a 7DII, it that turns out to be the case. Hey, I said they'd never put 1-series AF in the 5DIII, and if I wasn't getting a 1D X I'd already have a 5DIII.  Wrong or right, there's no losing here...

I would have to stop and think carefully about my upgrade path. The dilema would be 1DX or 7DX as an upgrade for the 7D, but if a high end, high mps came out I might go for that as a 1DS3 replacement.

Time to sit on hands and wait to see how it pans out.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on June 28, 2012, 07:07:33 PM
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P

Careful. That kind of candor can get you deleted around here.

Entertaining, but not gonna happen. Congrats to CR guy though. Great way to boost readership and stir up interest during the summer, while we wait for the real announcements.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Stone on June 28, 2012, 07:07:40 PM
I keep saying APS-H is just too good to shelve.  It doesn't give up very much to the 5DIII sensor as it is.  I wouldn't hesitate to add a 1.3 7D to my stable.  :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on June 28, 2012, 07:10:06 PM
while my 5Dmk3 preorder experience was not the best if its APS-H and body like the 5Dmk3 i'll pre-order 1 the nanosecond its formally announced
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 28, 2012, 07:11:01 PM
I keep saying APS-H is just too good to shelve.  It doesn't give up very much to the 5DIII sensor as it is.  I wouldn't hesitate to add a 1.3 7D to my stable.  :)

Could this be the 120mps monster they showed a couple of years ago - that would wipe the smirk of the D800 fanboys  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Razor2012 on June 28, 2012, 07:13:07 PM
I keep saying APS-H is just too good to shelve.  It doesn't give up very much to the 5DIII sensor as it is.  I wouldn't hesitate to add a 1.3 7D to my stable.  :)

Could this be the 120mps monster they showed a couple of years ago - that would wipe the smirk of the D800 fanboys  8) 8) 8)

There wouldn't be any left, they would have all jumped ship.  ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: distant.star on June 28, 2012, 07:13:18 PM
.

Oh NO!!!!!!

The APS-H virus has gotten to Craig!

Brian, how did you manage this???
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: aznable on June 28, 2012, 07:18:05 PM
I keep saying APS-H is just too good to shelve.  It doesn't give up very much to the 5DIII sensor as it is.  I wouldn't hesitate to add a 1.3 7D to my stable.  :)

Could this be the 120mps monster they showed a couple of years ago - that would wipe the smirk of the D800 fanboys  8) 8) 8)

120mpix,40 EV, 2m iso usable and sub $1500 price of course … of course the 9.5 fps of 2 years ago is unacceptable....we need 16 fps as minimum :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on June 28, 2012, 07:21:47 PM
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P

Careful. That kind of candor can get you deleted around here.

Entertaining, but not gonna happen. Congrats to CR guy though. Great way to boost readership and stir up interest during the summer, while we wait for the real announcements.

probably too early but ....

how do you like your egg? :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Rockets95 on June 28, 2012, 07:32:34 PM
I know I am showing my ignorance, but I'll ask anyway. APS-H (1.3) - Would it support EF-S? I would assume not! I only own one (10-22mm).
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: aznable on June 28, 2012, 07:38:45 PM
I know I am showing my ignorance, but I'll ask anyway. APS-H (1.3) - Would it support EF-S? I would assume not! I only own one (10-22mm).

hummm some sigma lenses works but with an very high vignetting/blur on the edges of frame; you can sell your 10-22 an buy something else anyway
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on June 28, 2012, 07:39:12 PM
I think it would be possible to design it by paying attention to the mirror assebly clearances to support EF-S lenses however you will get vignetting in the corners
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on June 28, 2012, 09:33:08 PM
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P

Careful. That kind of candor can get you deleted around here.

Entertaining, but not gonna happen. Congrats to CR guy though. Great way to boost readership and stir up interest during the summer, while we wait for the real announcements.

probably too early but ....

how do you like your egg? :P

Whites only, infused with silver halide crystals and dried onto a glass plate please. Hold the Vegemite.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on June 28, 2012, 09:39:31 PM
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P

Careful. That kind of candor can get you deleted around here.

Entertaining, but not gonna happen. Congrats to CR guy though. Great way to boost readership and stir up interest during the summer, while we wait for the real announcements.

probably too early but ....

how do you like your egg? :P

Whites only, infused with silver halide crystals and dried onto a glass plate please. Hold the Vegemite.

yeah i'm not a fan of vegemite either it looks and smells like axle grease...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: RLPhoto on June 28, 2012, 10:09:42 PM
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P

There's going to be alot of crow eating if the 7D is APS-H.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: gmrza on June 28, 2012, 10:10:17 PM


yeah i'm not a fan of vegemite either it looks and smells like axle grease...

You don't drive on the Westgate freeway enough.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: gmrza on June 28, 2012, 10:12:28 PM
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P

There's going to be alot of crow eating if the 7D is APS-H.

I just have a nagging feeling that with firmware v2 coming for the 7D that a successor to the 7D is a while away.  Canon wants to try to give the 7D legs for a while longer is what the new firmware release looks like to me.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: jueming23 on June 28, 2012, 10:12:40 PM
no matter aps-c or aps-h,i just wanna know when could i  get a NEW camera.september?don't be later,please
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on June 28, 2012, 10:20:48 PM
well, its still only CR1 and seems to have appeared again only because its a rumor that won't go away... But I still like the concept of 7DX, leaving 70D to rule the 1.6x world. whether or not Canon likes it is quite another matter!

Alas, the 7D firmware update signals to me that it may still be a year before we see it
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 28, 2012, 10:23:17 PM
I know I am showing my ignorance, but I'll ask anyway. APS-H (1.3) - Would it support EF-S? I would assume not! I only own one (10-22mm).

It can work from about 14~15mm onwards supposedly. (Someone tried with a 1DMkIII some time ago, maybe you can try a search on it ..)

But if such a camera does come about, i would be in Canon's best interest to have a crop-compatibility mode that toggles between 1.6x and 1.3x crop. This would be a great way to make everyone happy ... and ensure that it becomes a great selling camera !   ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on June 28, 2012, 10:25:21 PM
I know I am showing my ignorance, but I'll ask anyway. APS-H (1.3) - Would it support EF-S? I would assume not! I only own one (10-22mm).

It can work from about 14~15mm onwards supposedly. (Someone tried with a 1DMkIII some time ago, maybe you can try a search on it ..)

But if such a camera does come about, i would be in Canon's best interest to have a crop-compatibility mode that toggles between 1.6x and 1.3x crop. This would be a great way to make everyone happy ... and ensure that it becomes a great selling camera !   ;D
and increase FPS in crop mode would be a real winner say 8FPS in APS-H and 10 FPS in APS-C mode
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on June 28, 2012, 10:39:52 PM
APS-H would be fine under some conditions:

The mount supports EF-s lenses (it's possible a less-than-full-frame mirror could fit here).
The software supports shooting in 1.6-crop mode for both EF-s lenses and EF lenses.
The pixel density is the same or higher than the 70D (the 70D can't have a reach advantage).
The viewfinder has some markings or overlay or something for 1.6-crop.
The camera remains under $2k.

By the way:  (1.6/1.25)^2 * 22MP = 36MP.   ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1] APS-H
Post by: jpk on June 28, 2012, 10:56:24 PM
APS-H is a dead end to me. Only FF or APS-C are valid formats as far as I'm concerned. Why would I upgrade from my 7D to an APS-H body when the FF bodies, used, are a very viable upgrade path. There are many for sale with low mileage and a very nice price. APS-H is a tween format that will suffer from those that want to go FF, can't afford new but maybe can buy used. I think Canon should reserve the APS-C format for all their consumer grade bodies with perhaps a semi pro body at the high end of the line while having a low end prosumer FF body at the base of their pro line. Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on June 28, 2012, 11:06:22 PM
The level of crazy here may be reaching an all-time high.

Let's take it a step further. Instead of a some stripped-down crappy full-frame "entry level" camera, why not an APS-H entry-level camera instead? Sensor would be cheaper than full frame so Canon could undercut Nikon. Could be about the size of the 60D with similar build quality. Less processing power needed than full frame. Better frame rate, etc.

And, since we're going crazy here: designed to use APS-C lenses. (Why should physics get in our way?)

Now, even I could be interested in a body that turns my 15-85 EFS lens into a 20-110mm equivalent.  Of course, I would still want a 7DII, but I'd consider something that makes my lenses wider at the short end worth considering. Since I've already got the Tokina 11-16, it would be sweet to use it as a 14 mm with no vignetting.

Maybe it's really full frame that needs to go the way of the dinosaurs.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on June 28, 2012, 11:16:32 PM
I'm genuinely interested to find out how many APS-H critics actually owned or have regularly used a 1D body that has the sensor  ::)

ultra wide angle problem?
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=997698 (http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=997698)

13*1.3 = 16.9

takes 77mm filters and works on current existing APS-H bodies

by all accounts its a pretty kick arse lens too
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: jpk on June 28, 2012, 11:39:19 PM
APS-H. Why? I really see no point in it anymore. It served a purpose when FF was wildly expensive and APS-C wasn't up to the IQ. It had an added advantage of faster frame rates and a higher useable ISO, great for low light level sports shooting. Now, with improvements in IQ in other sensor formats, the reason no longer exists for the format to hang around. It really is a no mans land for formats.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: bdunbar79 on June 28, 2012, 11:41:29 PM
I'd say if you do like it, get a used 1D Mark IV, either on amazon or ebay, because I'm thinking a lot of people will sell when their 1D X's arrive.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 28, 2012, 11:48:36 PM
APS-H. Why? I really see no point in it anymore. It served a purpose when FF was wildly expensive and APS-C wasn't up to the IQ. It had an added advantage of faster frame rates and a higher useable ISO, great for low light level sports shooting. Now, with improvements in IQ in other sensor formats, the reason no longer exists for the format to hang around. It really is a no mans land for formats.

From Canon's point of view it could mean that their lens R&D only has to worry about EF lens if APS-C development is not at the high end - and we get more high quality, budget lens like the shorty forty instead
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 29, 2012, 01:03:24 AM
APS-H. Why? I really see no point in it anymore. It served a purpose when FF was wildly expensive and APS-C wasn't up to the IQ. It had an added advantage of faster frame rates and a higher useable ISO, great for low light level sports shooting. Now, with improvements in IQ in other sensor formats, the reason no longer exists for the format to hang around. It really is a no mans land for formats.

From Canon's point of view it could mean that their lens R&D only has to worry about EF lens if APS-C development is not at the high end - and we get more high quality, budget lens like the shorty forty instead

Just to add, it would serve as a bridge between EF and EF-S lenses and as Brian suggests, allow them to concentrate their efforts on EF lenses without alienating existing EF-S lens owners. A high quality camera that allows the full utilization of both formats ( that is provided it has EF-S crop compatibility mode). 

It would also be attractive to EF glass owners who want a higher-speed camera without paying mortgage for one. Something that has say ~8-9fps, minimum current 7D typish AF module (the 1dMkIV AF would be really awesome though..) ... Under US$2500/-.  And in a 7D or 5DMkII body format.

It would be a really attractive camera to a lot of people. And as Canon has always like to do, explore hidden niches of the market with a high potential which no competitor can touch for sometime.

But as with almost all ideas here, nobody knows for sure what are Canon's considerations in the overall scheme of things.  ???

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Stone on June 29, 2012, 01:19:14 AM
APS-H. Why? I really see no point in it anymore. It served a purpose when FF was wildly expensive and APS-C wasn't up to the IQ. It had an added advantage of faster frame rates and a higher useable ISO, great for low light level sports shooting. Now, with improvements in IQ in other sensor formats, the reason no longer exists for the format to hang around. It really is a no mans land for formats.

I have to respectfully disagree with you.  From my experience, APS-H IQ is far better than APS-C the latitude available in the raw files was night and day when I shot both the 1DIV and 7D.  APS-C is getting better every generation, but APS-H is still the closest you can get to FF IQ without going FF.  If you can live without the extra reach and aren't strictly posting your shots to the web, the older tech of APS-H still beats APS-C and comes very close to FF IQ.  IMO, Canon would be crazy to shelve such good tech, but stranger things have happened in the past....
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: nicku on June 29, 2012, 01:35:51 AM
loool

I said before looong before his rumor..... a APS-H 7D2 will be something unique on the market without any direct rival from the competition ( Nikon, Sony, Pentax). The perfect combination between High ISO/extra reach.

A perfect backup body for professionals wildlife and sports photographers (1DX users) , and a perfect tool for semipro wildlife/sports photographers.

The downside of this move will be no entry level FF camera from Canon.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: nicku on June 29, 2012, 01:55:13 AM
What kills APS-H for me is that there are no wide angle lenses for it that aren't curved surface front elements. (Wide angle would require either the 8-15 fish eye or something like the rumored 14-24.)

The 16-35 becomes a 21-45 (for example).

For APS-C, there are lenses like the 10-20.

The APS-H sensor/cameras are designed especially for wildlife/sports. A very small number of wildlife/sports photographers want/need a ultra wide lens on APS-H.

Who knows maybe we will see a ultra wide EF affordable lens with the 7D2 announcement.

 To be honest how many of us will need a wider lens than 16-35/17-40 on a sports/wildlife designed camera???

If the rumor is true 7D2 will be a market killer and no need for a entry lvl FF body.

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on June 29, 2012, 03:20:16 AM
I keep saying APS-H is just too good to shelve.  It doesn't give up very much to the 5DIII sensor as it is.  I wouldn't hesitate to add a 1.3 7D to my stable.  :)

Could this be the 120mps monster they showed a couple of years ago - that would wipe the smirk of the D800 fanboys  8) 8) 8)

Are there any lenses for the EF mount that are sharp enough to resolve 120MP?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: pwp on June 29, 2012, 03:53:33 AM
APS-H is a dead end to me. Only FF or APS-C are valid formats as far as I'm concerned.
APS-H. Why? I really see no point in it anymore. It served a purpose when FF was wildly expensive and APS-C wasn't up to the IQ. It had an added advantage of faster frame rates and a higher useable ISO, great for low light level sports shooting. Now, with improvements in IQ in other sensor formats, the reason no longer exists for the format to hang around. It really is a no mans land for formats.

I'd ask both of you if you have ever owned an APS-H body? Dead End or No Man's Land? Try working with them.

I've had four starting with the original 1D. And over 1 million APS-H frames. Probably my favourite cameras ever are the 1D MkIIn & the 1D MkIV. Alongside these I've always had FF & APS-C as well. The extra reach with minimal IQ compromise is brilliant. I'll shoot a glossy DPS, full page or billboards with the 1DMkIV with total confidence. If I need full wide there is always the FF body. Photographers who use and value APS-H will miss it badly. Some are buying extra 1D MkIV bodies.

PW

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 04:09:36 AM
APS-H is a dead end to me. Only FF or APS-C are valid formats as far as I'm concerned.
APS-H. Why? I really see no point in it anymore. It served a purpose when FF was wildly expensive and APS-C wasn't up to the IQ. It had an added advantage of faster frame rates and a higher useable ISO, great for low light level sports shooting. Now, with improvements in IQ in other sensor formats, the reason no longer exists for the format to hang around. It really is a no mans land for formats.

I'd ask both of you if you have ever owned an APS-H body? Dead End or No Man's Land? Try working with them.

I've had four starting with the original 1D. And over 1 million APS-H frames. Probably my favourite cameras ever are the 1D MkIIn & the 1D MkIV. Alongside these I've always had FF & APS-C as well. The extra reach with minimal IQ compromise is brilliant. I'll shoot a glossy DPS, full page or billboards with the 1DMkIV with total confidence. If I need full wide there is always the FF body. Photographers who use and value APS-H will miss it badly. Some are buying extra 1D MkIV bodies.

PW

+1

I bought the 1D4 as a replacement for a 7D. A couple of weeks use and I wouldn't go back to the 7D now. The 1D4 and 1DS3 account for about 90% of my shots

My 1DS2 and 7D split the rest (they are second used as second bodies so I have the right lens mounted)

Whilst I really like the 1D4 images, they are stunning in comparison to the 7D, I just wish they had that little extra the 1DS3 brings at low ISO.

The 5DIII I wouldn't consider a contender for a 7D upgrade

Perhaps the 1DX will do that, IQ plus fps - the ultimate 7D upgrade?

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: noncho on June 29, 2012, 04:23:10 AM
Well... I like the idea for APS-H in body without grip, I don't like big and heavy 1D series.
But I think it will be limited or pricey, in other case who would buy 1D X if there is 7D II with the same AF system and good APS-H sensor for 2k $.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 04:27:09 AM
Well... I like the idea for APS-H in body without grip, I don't like big and heavy 1D series.
But I think it will be limited or pricey, in other case who would buy 1D X if there is 7D II with the same AF system and good APS-H sensor for 2k $.

Howabout a 24mps APS-H, 10fps 5DIII sized camera for $4k?

The 70D would be the $2k variant
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Stuart on June 29, 2012, 04:43:20 AM
We kinda hope the 70D would have a new sensor - that 18M one is getting worn out now it's in so many current bodies.
If it does and the specs converg towards the 7D then that leaves less space for a 7Dmk2.
So my hope is for a 6D which is the low cost FF prosumer answer.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: noncho on June 29, 2012, 04:58:33 AM
Well... I like the idea for APS-H in body without grip, I don't like big and heavy 1D series.
But I think it will be limited or pricey, in other case who would buy 1D X if there is 7D II with the same AF system and good APS-H sensor for 2k $.

Howabout a 24mps APS-H, 10fps 5DIII sized camera for $4k?

The 70D would be the $2k variant

4k $ - No, Thanks I'm amateur and this is pricey for me.
If I liked 1D series I would rather buy some second hand 1d for less.

And if 70D is 2k $ I would stay with my 60D for a while.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 05:20:39 AM

It's not like a 7D successor is going to get the autofocus capability of the 1DX and it is the autofocus ability of a camera that makes or breaks it with respect to sports and to a lesser extent wildlife.



A straight lift od the 1D4 AF would be big improvement on the existing 7D AF - but (maybe) not as good as the 1DX AF


Quote
Who knows maybe we will see a ultra wide EF affordable lens with the 7D2 announcement.

You mean like the already rumored 14-24? As I said above, that has a curved front element and is not suitable for use with filters.

I believe Lee/Cokins will work OK? (but not on the 8-15)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: nicku on June 29, 2012, 05:31:45 AM

[/quote]



Doesn't Canon want all of those people buying the 1DX instead?


[/quote]


[/quote]

Don't forget the price tag of 7D more than half comperring with 1DX . Don't mention the IQ of 1Dx, much better than any APS-H sensor Canon my put in 7D2

Well... I like the idea for APS-H in body without grip, I don't like big and heavy 1D series.
But I think it will be limited or pricey, in other case who would buy 1D X if there is 7D II with the same AF system and good APS-H sensor for 2k $.

Howabout a 24mps APS-H, 10fps 5DIII sized camera for $4k?

The 70D would be the $2k variant

I believe the 7D2 will be 22mp with 45 AF points from 1D4. and the price tag around $2500
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 29, 2012, 05:35:29 AM

It's not like a 7D successor is going to get the autofocus capability of the 1DX and it is the autofocus ability of a camera that makes or breaks it with respect to sports and to a lesser extent wildlife.



A straight lift od the 1D4 AF would be big improvement on the existing 7D AF - but (maybe) not as good as the 1DX AF


Quote
Who knows maybe we will see a ultra wide EF affordable lens with the 7D2 announcement.

You mean like the already rumored 14-24? As I said above, that has a curved front element and is not suitable for use with filters.

I believe Lee/Cokins will work OK? (but not on the 8-15)

Agree on the 1DmkIV AF part. It would be at almost no additional cost to R&D development.

As for the Lee/Cokins, they only work with the X-Pro series. I used them for the Sigma 12-24, with a custom made adapter for my 5DmkII.  You need a filter circle of about 127mm to clear the 12mm on a FF.  Since the 8-15 has similar FOV, it should be similar too.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 05:42:17 AM
As for the Lee/Cokins, they only work with the X-Pro series. I used them for the Sigma 12-24, with a custom made adapter for my 5DmkII.  You need a filter circle of about 127mm to clear the 12mm on a FF.  Since the 8-15 has similar FOV, it should be similar too.

The 8-15 has no way to mount the filters. Also a 8mm I suspect light leakage woud be a problem. On a tripod the tripod legs are a problem @ 8mm
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 29, 2012, 07:19:32 AM
Looks like you guys haven't played around wide angles enough ...

For the Sigma 8-16, this is what you need as an adapter to use square filters:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/14101-REG/Cokin_CP499_P_Series_Universal_Adapter.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/14101-REG/Cokin_CP499_P_Series_Universal_Adapter.html)

(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/14101.jpg)

For larger lenses like the Nikon 14-24mm, there is this :

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/693472-REG/LEE_Filters_KIT_SW150_SW150_Filter_Holder_Kit.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/693472-REG/LEE_Filters_KIT_SW150_SW150_Filter_Holder_Kit.html)

(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/largeimages/693472.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 07:21:09 AM
I believe Lee/Cokins will work OK? (but not on the 8-15)

Cokin filters require a screw in ring to mount the filter holder and do not work with lenses that have a curved surface the same as screw in circular polarisers don't work.

Lee may work.

PL is the one filter I dont use except for the screw on/drop in types. Filter holders come in all shapes and sizes.

I was referring to the filters not the holders - X pro cokins or  100x150 Lees

The 8-15 is so domed that the flat filter isn't big enough to stop reversed vignetting (ie more light from the side)

It is my experience that the PL on uwa dont work properly anyway (from ff with 17-40)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 29, 2012, 07:46:22 AM
Thats why you need something like the LEE filter kit that has side covers.

My Sigma 12-24 needed a custom solution for the light leakage. And basically sorted out, it has no light leakage.
Mine's with a friend on vacation now, so can't really snap a shot of it to illustrate what I mean. 

But .. you can get away with it with a little gaffer tape at the sides of the filter clips if you use the generic Cokin adapters.

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 08:09:27 AM
Thats why you need something like the LEE filter kit that has side covers.

My Sigma 12-24 needed a custom solution for the light leakage. And basically sorted out, it has no light leakage.
Mine's with a friend on vacation now, so can't really snap a shot of it to illustrate what I mean. 

But .. you can get away with it with a little gaffer tape at the sides of the filter clips if you use the generic Cokin adapters.

The 8-15 would be blinkered by the mount

Even the shallow hood gets into the picture
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 29, 2012, 08:25:56 AM
No it probably will not.

The 8-16 and 12-24 have almost identical FOV's. I can use the full range of my 12-24 on my 5DmkII, I don't see why you can't for the 8-16.

AND as I pointed out earlier, you just have to use the X-pro filters and compatible kits as only those are wide enough for the 12-24mm.   Anything smaller won't cut it. It needs at least a 127mm diameter filter. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 08:46:11 AM
Here you are then

First shows 8-15 and the height of the dome and how close the top ot the hood is in height . The filter would be about the same height

Second shows the image at 8mm, clearly show a lot of the inside of the hood - that is where the light would come from. Put a mount there and the visual image would be blinkered

I am guessing a 200mm square filter would be needed - perhaps off a MF

I have no need of a filter so haven't persued it any further


Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Eimajm on June 29, 2012, 08:47:32 AM
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera? Its unlikely  enthusiasts are going about printing bigger than A3. Stop with the megapixels and put the R&D into better noise and DR not trying to cram more photosites on when its not needed.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: ICE on June 29, 2012, 08:48:42 AM
Stone writes  APS-H is far better than APS-C . . .
That maybe, but the FF is far better than the APS-H.

And said before but . . .
Why should Canon produce a APS-H sensor?
The R&D department needs af larger budget and will there be sold enough APS-H cameras?
And the APS-H camera will canibalize from 1DX, which is not that expensive any more.
And the APS-H camera in the "old days" was made for getting more fps than the FF camera could achieve. Now you have 14 fps, the finest of ISO etc. So why bother about the APS-H.
And the IQ and DR of the FF and the APS-C talks for not making a APS-H sensor.
So sorry guys.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: ICE on June 29, 2012, 08:54:33 AM
Quote
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera? Its unlikely  enthusiasts are going about printing bigger than A3. Stop with the megapixels and put the R&D into better noise and DR not trying to cram more photosites on when its not needed.

Ever so right.  :) 18MP is enoug for prosumers. Better ISO, IQ and DR is far more important.  8
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 09:44:22 AM
Quote
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera? Its unlikely  enthusiasts are going about printing bigger than A3. Stop with the megapixels and put the R&D into better noise and DR not trying to cram more photosites on when its not needed.

Ever so right.  :) 18MP is enoug for prosumers. Better ISO, IQ and DR is far more important.  8

Except that Sony and Nikon already offer more megapixels for the prosumer in equivalent bodies.

Heck, the Nikon D3200 has 24MP and is on a par with the 5D Mark II in terms of IQ.

So there's Canon's challenge: deliver a crop camera with IQ equal to that of the 5D Mark II.
Any reviews of the D3200 yet?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on June 29, 2012, 09:45:55 AM
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera?

Useful for cropping when I'm focal-length or magnification limited.

If more pixels weren't useful for this, teleconverters would also be useless, and they are not.  Even our old optics can do well with a 2x TC on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor, thus indicating that sensor could go to 72MP and still provide benefit even to an old zoom lens (100-400L).

100-400L + 2x on T2i:
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on June 29, 2012, 09:51:58 AM
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<strong>The prosumer market up next?<br />


</strong>Now that Canon has addressed the “professional” space with the 5D Mark III, 1D X & 1D C (Yes, I know some want the big megapixel camera), it could be time to turn our attention to the “prosumer” space. We keep hearing bits of information about what’s planned for the segment in the coming months.</p>
<p><strong>The 70D</strong><br />


The latest I have heard, and spoken about before, is that we’ll see the 70D move up the line. It’ll be specced close to the current 7D, however with a new higher megapixel APS-C sensor.</p>
<p><strong>The 7D X</strong><br />


The rumor that won’t go away is that the APS-H sensor will return to the Canon lineup and fit between the 70D and 5D Mark III. Is it really possible? Maybe. I don’t think Canon needs more APS-C cameras beyond the Rebel, a 70D and possibly a mirrorless entry.</p>
<p><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>


I may have to smite you for that line about the APS-C 7D... Oh, wait, we can't smite each other! Now, I must attempt to resort to logic, or at least emotion and rhetoric.  ;D :'( :o 8)

On a serious note, I REALLY want the 7D mk II to be APS-C. If it bloats to APS-H, I will be enraged, though my wrath would be mitigated if they bumped the MP up to around 24ish, to stave off the effects of the lost distance...

Stone writes  APS-H is far better than APS-C . . .
That maybe, but the FF is far better than the APS-H.

And said before but . . .
Why should Canon produce a APS-H sensor?
The R&D department needs af larger budget and will there be sold enough APS-H cameras?
And the APS-H camera will canibalize from 1DX, which is not that expensive any more.
And the APS-H camera in the "old days" was made for getting more fps than the FF camera could achieve. Now you have 14 fps, the finest of ISO etc. So why bother about the APS-H.
And the IQ and DR of the FF and the APS-C talks for not making a APS-H sensor.
So sorry guys.

Exactamundo. Now, let us be rid once and for all of the mad thoughts of bloating the 7D sensor.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 09:54:46 AM
Stone writes  APS-H is far better than APS-C . . .
That maybe, but the FF is far better than the APS-H.


The 1D4 is better than the 5DII so perhaps far better is an overstatement?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Dylan777 on June 29, 2012, 10:10:30 AM
APS-H Sensor for 7D X???....wow this must be a dream  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on June 29, 2012, 10:20:49 AM
First shows 8-15 and the height of the dome and how close the top ot the hood is in height . The filter would be about the same height

Second shows the image at 8mm, clearly show a lot of the inside of the hood - that is where the light would come from. Put a mount there and the visual image would be blinkered

I am guessing a 200mm square filter would be needed

The answer was already provided...

...needed a custom solution for the light leakage...

So, a barrel-mounted or Plamp type holder for a custom fabricated convex glass filter.  Should only set you back a few thousand $/£/€...  Oh, and while your at it, have someone grind down that hood on the 8-15mm fisheye...

 ::) :P :-X
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 10:33:13 AM

And said before but . . .
Why should Canon produce a APS-H sensor?
The R&D department needs af larger budget and will there be sold enough APS-H cameras?
And the APS-H camera will canibalize from 1DX, which is not that expensive any more.
And the APS-H camera in the "old days" was made for getting more fps than the FF camera could achieve. Now you have 14 fps, the finest of ISO etc. So why bother about the APS-H.
And the IQ and DR of the FF and the APS-C talks for not making a APS-H sensor.
So sorry guys.

We are looking at lifting the internals of the 1D4 and putting them in 5DIII body

16 mps, 10fps, good high iso, good IQ, 1.3 reach, good AF, f/8 AF, metering on AF point etc. This would make a good upgrade for the 7D - I know, I did the 7D to 1D4 upgrade. We know the APS-H is proven at higher mps so upgrades there can be anticipated

APS-C does not match APS-H in anyway and will probably end up in Csc, EVILs etc at the lower end. This trend has already been started by other manufacturers eg NX20. That means that APS-H will become the new entry level sensor.

Look forward to it - APS-H as entry level is mind blowing.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: RLPhoto on June 29, 2012, 10:34:33 AM

And said before but . . .
Why should Canon produce a APS-H sensor?
The R&D department needs af larger budget and will there be sold enough APS-H cameras?
And the APS-H camera will canibalize from 1DX, which is not that expensive any more.
And the APS-H camera in the "old days" was made for getting more fps than the FF camera could achieve. Now you have 14 fps, the finest of ISO etc. So why bother about the APS-H.
And the IQ and DR of the FF and the APS-C talks for not making a APS-H sensor.
So sorry guys.

We are looking at lifting the internals of the 1D4 and putting them in 5DIII body

16 mps, 10fps, good high iso, good IQ, 1.3 reach, good AF, f/8 AF, metering on AF point etc. This would make a good upgrade for the 7D - I know, I did the 7D to 1D4 upgrade. We know the APS-H is proven at higher mps so upgrades there can be anticipated

APS-C does not match APS-H in anyway and will probably end up in Csc, EVILs etc at the lower end. This trend has already been started by other manufacturers eg NX20. That means that APS-H will become the new entry level sensor.

Look forward to it - APS-H as entry level is mind blowing.

FF>>>APS-H>>>APS-C  8)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 29, 2012, 11:03:42 AM
Here you are then

First shows 8-15 and the height of the dome and how close the top ot the hood is in height . The filter would be about the same height

Second shows the image at 8mm, clearly show a lot of the inside of the hood - that is where the light would come from. Put a mount there and the visual image would be blinkered

I am guessing a 200mm square filter would be needed - perhaps off a MF

I have no need of a filter so haven't persued it any further

Good grief ... in the context of APS-C and APS-H ...  I really thought you were talking about the Sigma 8-16mm  !  :o

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/shop/8-16mm-f45-56-dc-hsm-sigma (http://www.sigmaphoto.com/shop/8-16mm-f45-56-dc-hsm-sigma)

Which really is the basis of what I was talking about on 'equivalent FOV' .... 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: BXL on June 29, 2012, 11:42:21 AM
The only reason I could see Canon getting serious about a successor to the 7D is if Nikon bring out a D400 that beats whatever the 70D has to offer in a way that requires a new camera from Canon.
Well... Nikon's counterpart of the 70D would be the rumored D7100.

Quote
If the rumor is true 7D2 will be a market killer and no need for a entry lvl FF body.
It would cannibalize the sales of the 1D X, thus I don't believe that this rumor comes true.

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 01:07:06 PM
...
And the APS-H camera in the "old days" was made for getting more fps than the FF camera could achieve. Now you have 14 fps, the finest of ISO etc. So why bother about the APS-H.
...

NO!

APS-H was made because Canon could not produce a full frame sensor cost effectively at the time the 1D series cameras were being designed and delivered.

APS-H was designed and made by Kodak first. The Kodak sensor was then bought by Canon for the first 'Canon' APS-H camerassuch as the D6000. Canon then designed their own and put it in the 1D in 2001. The rest of the camera was based on the IV film camera - so it got the 45 point AF system

- 8 fps continuous shooting
- Continuous shooting burst up to a maximum of 21 shots

Kodak also designed the first APS-C 1.6 crop sensor for Canon (such as the D2000)

Perhaps we can now stop propegating the myths about why Canon 'designed' APS-H for maximum profit - it just bought them off the shelf like Nikon do with Sony sensors.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: nicku on June 29, 2012, 01:13:36 PM
Stone writes  APS-H is far better than APS-C . . .
That maybe, but the FF is far better than the APS-H.

And said before but . . .
Why should Canon produce a APS-H sensor?
The R&D department needs af larger budget and will there be sold enough APS-H cameras?
And the APS-H camera will canibalize from 1DX, which is not that expensive any more.
And the APS-H camera in the "old days" was made for getting more fps than the FF camera could achieve. Now you have 14 fps, the finest of ISO etc. So why bother about the APS-H.
And the IQ and DR of the FF and the APS-C talks for not making a APS-H sensor.
So sorry guys.

Why should Canon produce a APS-H sensor?
Because  will be a unique camera on the market without a direct competitor and because the IQ and extra reach (1.3 crop)

The R&D department needs af larger budget and will there be sold enough APS-H cameras?

The technology and knowhow to produce APS-H allready exists, Considering the actual 7D sales definitely worth investing.

 the APS-H camera will canibalize from 1DX, which is not that expensive any more.

The IQ of the 7D2 (if the rumor is true) wil definitely not canibalize the 1Dx because the IQ. the APS-H sensor will have a lower IQ, lower fps, AF etc...

 the APS-H camera in the "old days" was made for getting more fps than the FF camera could achieve. Now you have 14 fps, the finest of ISO etc. So why bother about the APS-H.

They aiming to the budget semipro wildlife/sports photographers and to 1Dx users (as a Backup camera).




Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on June 29, 2012, 03:01:41 PM
PROSUMER is just a cynical marketing ploy to sell slightly upgraded Rebels for more money. By calling these cameras prosumer they make the buyers feel special.

Nikon doesn't sell prosumer cameras, just consumer and pro. The Nikon D300S DX (APS-C)  has the same focusing and metering as the FX (Full Frame) D3s. While neither the POS 60D or the EOS 7D have pro level focusing or metering. WTF is wrong with Canon ???


Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Rockets95 on June 29, 2012, 04:00:59 PM
I know I am showing my ignorance, but I'll ask anyway. APS-H (1.3) - Would it support EF-S? I would assume not! I only own one (10-22mm).

It can work from about 14~15mm onwards supposedly. (Someone tried with a 1DMkIII some time ago, maybe you can try a search on it ..)

But if such a camera does come about, i would be in Canon's best interest to have a crop-compatibility mode that toggles between 1.6x and 1.3x crop. This would be a great way to make everyone happy ... and ensure that it becomes a great selling camera !   ;D

Isn't that what Nikon does?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on June 29, 2012, 04:55:17 PM
APS-H was designed and made by Kodak first. The Kodak sensor was then bought by Canon for the first 'Canon' APS-H cameras such as the D6000. Canon then designed their own and put it in the 1D in 2001. The rest of the camera was based on the IV film camera - so it got the 45 point AF system

- 8 fps continuous shooting
- Continuous shooting burst up to a maximum of 21 shots

Kodak also designed the first APS-C 1.6 crop sensor for Canon (such as the D2000)

Perhaps we can now stop propegating the myths about why Canon 'designed' APS-H for maximum profit - it just bought them off the shelf like Nikon do with Sony sensors.

dude nice history.  so Kodak is out of the picture now entirely since 2001, and Canon fully owns and produces their own sensors?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 29, 2012, 08:17:20 PM
APS-H was designed and made by Kodak first. The Kodak sensor was then bought by Canon for the first 'Canon' APS-H cameras such as the D6000. Canon then designed their own and put it in the 1D in 2001. The rest of the camera was based on the IV film camera - so it got the 45 point AF system

- 8 fps continuous shooting
- Continuous shooting burst up to a maximum of 21 shots

Kodak also designed the first APS-C 1.6 crop sensor for Canon (such as the D2000)

Perhaps we can now stop propegating the myths about why Canon 'designed' APS-H for maximum profit - it just bought them off the shelf like Nikon do with Sony sensors.

dude nice history.  so Kodak is out of the picture now entirely since 2001, and Canon fully owns and produces their own sensors?

Yes

It is also worth noting that the Sony and Nikon APS-C are 1.5 crop so are larger than the Canon sensors
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on June 29, 2012, 10:12:33 PM
PROSUMER is just a cynical marketing ploy to sell slightly upgraded Rebels for more money. By calling these cameras prosumer they make the buyers feel special.

Nikon doesn't sell prosumer cameras, just consumer and pro. The Nikon D300S DX (APS-C)  has the same focusing and metering as the FX (Full Frame) D3s. While neither the POS 60D or the EOS 7D have pro level focusing or metering. WTF is wrong with Canon ???

Canon has a much larger (and growing) dSLR market share, compared to Nikon. So...WTF is wrong with Canon???  Nothing.  Rather, WTF is wrong with Nikon?!?

Just giving you the shareholder perspective, which for a publicly-held company is the most important consideration.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 29, 2012, 10:22:00 PM
PROSUMER is just a cynical marketing ploy to sell slightly upgraded Rebels for more money. By calling these cameras prosumer they make the buyers feel special.

Nikon doesn't sell prosumer cameras, just consumer and pro. The Nikon D300S DX (APS-C)  has the same focusing and metering as the FX (Full Frame) D3s. While neither the POS 60D or the EOS 7D have pro level focusing or metering. WTF is wrong with Canon ???

You read these specs from Nikon too literally.

Have you ever actually compared these Nikon cameras side by side for their so called 'pro grade' AF and metering??  Go do that with the same glass side by side ... You will be "amazed" by the differences... 

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Gcon on June 29, 2012, 10:50:46 PM
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.

APS-H is D.E.A.D. It was only there for faster frame rates compared to FF. It was a compromise. Canon solved this with the 1DX. The whole point of a crop-sensor lens in a semi-pro body like 7D is just that - the crop factor! Otherwise you'd just get the 5DIII. My left nut to say that APS-H will never ever see the light of day ever again in a new body - it makes absolutely zero sense.

I was initially thinking that 60D and 7D would merge. I've changed my mind. The price gap would be too great going from Rebel/650D to 7D. That middle ground needs to be filled to stave off competition from the impressive Nikon D7000. Canon won't give up that fight.

There will be a 70D and 7DII. Both will be 24MP. There will be enough feature differences to justify the price diff - weather sealing, frame rate (dual digic vs single), AF points, magnesium body.

The Canon no-frills full frame camera - this one is hard to predict! They need to be competitive with Nikon yet not Canibalise 5DIII sales the way the 5DII cannibalised 1Ds sales several years ago. I definitely think is coming though - the 5DII is dated and won't work with new accessories. It needs a direct replacement at that price point. Will it be a megapixel monster? I doubt it but we shall see.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: maxxevv on June 29, 2012, 11:52:30 PM
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.



What if it could and was 1.3X crop as well ??
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on June 30, 2012, 12:14:22 AM
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.



What if it could and was 1.3X crop as well ??

or even the APS-C update, the 70D, will of course take the EF-S lens

To ease the update path into FF a cheap 1.3 crop option will be provided complete with a series of cheaper lens such as the 40 f/2.8.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on June 30, 2012, 01:33:39 AM
You read these specs from Nikon too literally.

Have you ever actually compared these Nikon cameras side by side for their so called 'pro grade' AF and metering??  Go do that with the same glass side by side ... You will be "amazed" by the differences...

Yes I have. I know fellow pros who use Nikon DSLRs, and I've played with them. I now own a Nikon F100 FFFilm (Full-Frame-Film) camera, and I prefer the metering and focus to my Canon cameras. I've used a 5D3, and it's a great camera, but I think that I've already bought my last Canon DSLR. I'll be replacing my DSLRs at the end of the year. What is announced at Photokina will help me make my decision, stick with Canon or go with Nikon or maybe Sony. Or perhaps buying Mu43, and renting MFD when I need the higher pixel count. Decisions, decisions ... :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on June 30, 2012, 01:47:11 AM

Just giving you the shareholder perspective, which for a publicly-held company is the most important consideration.

Let me re-word it. Prosumer is just a cynical marketing ploy to enrich Canon shareholders. This cynical ploy isn't used by Nikon, another publicly traded company. ;) Maybe Nikon shareholders are already rich enough ;)  ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Eimajm on June 30, 2012, 05:43:21 AM
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera?

Useful for cropping when I'm focal-length or magnification limited.

If more pixels weren't useful for this, teleconverters would also be useless, and they are not.  Even our old optics can do well with a 2x TC on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor, thus indicating that sensor could go to 72MP and still provide benefit even to an old zoom lens (100-400L).

100-400L + 2x on T2i:
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg)

That's like saying I'm shooting birds with a wide angle and need the extra pixels for cropping. Not really the right tools for the job.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: KarstenReis on June 30, 2012, 08:14:28 AM
The whole FF, APS-H, APS-C formats seems to be quite a polarizing topic.  As someone who has only shot with APS-C cameras (450D &7D) and only been able to compare IQ from each format, it seems like there are advantages to each.  FF for studio and landscapes, APS-C for the extra "reach" and APS-H is a compromise between the two that gives some additional reach for sports and wildlife while still delivering very good high ISO IQ (almost as good as the 5D Mark III).  I understand that it was a solution for Canon when FF sensors were too expensive to produce and NOT so that they could deliver faster frame rates, as some people seem to think on here.  I'd like to put in my thought sometimes but it seems like everyone gets their panties in a wad and can't keep even the most basic level of objectivity when it comes to discussing a possible return of APS-H sensors.  Instantly people flame anyone who even mentions that APS-H might actually be good. Gasp!
With that said, unless Canon can improve exponentially on the sensor technology of APS-C, APS-H delivers a lot of advantages with minimal investment in R&D.  I would definitely welcome a new 7D replacement with an APS-H sensor, whatever it's called.  There is definitely a market for Canon to have a "prosumer" body with all the bells and whistles it currently has.  The most common complaint I've heard about the 7D is IQ at both low and high ISO.  What could solve this problem is a move to APS-H! It would deliver better IQ while still providing some of the reach that APS-C delivers.  Yes it is a compromise but I'd see it as a very good one.  A move to FF for the 7D, as some people have wanted, would require the purchase of additional glass that is way out of the budget of most serious amateurs (myself included).  I have to 400 5.6.  A jump up to 500 would cost an additional ~5k for a used Mk I or ~9 for a MkII.  Unless someone wants to give me that money or I win the lottery, I don't see a 500 in my future any time soon.
Wow, that got long quickly.  I just think people need to tone down the rhetoric a little and try to come in with a little more of an open mind. Have a good weekend.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on June 30, 2012, 09:16:05 AM
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera?

Useful for cropping when I'm focal-length or magnification limited.

If more pixels weren't useful for this, teleconverters would also be useless, and they are not.  Even our old optics can do well with a 2x TC on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor, thus indicating that sensor could go to 72MP and still provide benefit even to an old zoom lens (100-400L).

100-400L + 2x on T2i:
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg)

That's like saying I'm shooting birds with a wide angle and need the extra pixels for cropping. Not really the right tools for the job.

I routinely need a zoom lens for shooting at long focal lengths because I'm shooting aircraft and they move quickly.  They move so quickly that handholding is required.  How many handholdable fast autofocus zoom lenses does Canon make longer than 400mm?  It's common for me to crop to 800-1200mm equivalent focal length, and those extra pixels are a big help.

Now, if Canon wants to make a nice, affordable, handholdable 100-1200 f/4-f/5.6, I'm all for it but I don't think that will happen any time in the foreseeable future as we don't even have materials that could meet those specs.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: TTMartin on June 30, 2012, 09:40:19 AM
I'm still seeing Canon's best move is to make the 70D their full frame entry level camera.

Full frame doesn't make a camera a Pro camera, and it's not the sensor that determines the numbering with Canon it's features and build. The 1D, 1D Mk II, 1D Mk III, 1D Mk IV, and 7D are all proof of this.

I'm guessing it would be possible for Canon to build an APS-H 7D Mk II with a modified mirror box, to allow the use of EF-S lenses (with reduced image are like Nikon DX lenses on their FX cameras). Either that or a 7D Mk II with a true APS-H spec sensor which would make it a 16X9 and it also could be designed to accommodate EF-S lenses as the true APS-C and APS-H spec actually have the same sensor height, so they could have the same mirror height, thus accommodating EF-S lenses. The only thing that doesn't make sense with this is that the 7D is more of a sports oriented camera, and a 16X9 sensor would be more in line with video oriented camera. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on June 30, 2012, 10:01:59 AM
The latest I have heard, and spoken about before, is that we’ll see the 70D move up the line. It’ll be specced close to the current 7D, however with a new higher megapixel APS-C sensor.

It seems to me that this could be the cause of the new 7D firmware.  If the 70D comes out before a new 7D does, and it's spec'd higher than the 7D is without the new firmware, that would be embarrassing for Canon.  So they upgraded the 7D firmware to keep the 70D below it in some ways (raw buffer, probably) so they can keep the 7D on the market longer.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Razor2012 on June 30, 2012, 10:54:12 AM

Just giving you the shareholder perspective, which for a publicly-held company is the most important consideration.

Let me re-word it. Prosumer is just a cynical marketing ploy to enrich Canon shareholders. This cynical ploy isn't used by Nikon, another publicly traded company. ;) Maybe Nikon shareholders are already rich enough ;)  ;)

Whatever kind of ploy it is, it must be working...just look at who's got the biggest market share.   ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: BXL on June 30, 2012, 01:43:35 PM
The latest I have heard, and spoken about before, is that we’ll see the 70D move up the line. It’ll be specced close to the current 7D, however with a new higher megapixel APS-C sensor.

It seems to me that this could be the cause of the new 7D firmware.  If the 70D comes out before a new 7D does, and it's spec'd higher than the 7D is without the new firmware, that would be embarrassing for Canon.  So they upgraded the 7D firmware to keep the 70D below it in some ways (raw buffer, probably) so they can keep the 7D on the market longer.
IMO the 70D will be cheaper than the 7D (v2). Even if the 70D gets the 19-point AF of the 7D and a better 2X MP Sensor, there are still a few differences to differentiate those two cameras:

1. Speed: The 70D is rumored to have a frame rate of 6 fps, the 7D has 8 fps -> Advantage 7D
2. Buffer: The 70D will most likely keep the max buffer of  ~16 RAW files (58 JPEGs), the 7D maximum RAW buffer is extended to 25 RAW files (130 JPEGs) -> Advantage 7D
3. Memory Cards: SD versus CF -> IMO Advantage 7D, however, some people prefer cheaper and slower SD-Cards.
4. Viewfinder: 70D will most likely keep the viewfinder of the 60D. Thus 96% versus 100% (7D) -> Advantage 7D
5. Body: 70D will most likely keep the polycarbonate resin with glass fibre body on aluminum chassis, the 7D has a magnesium alloy body -> Advantage? Depends on personal preference.

IMO the score is 0:4 in favor of the 7D...

The regular price of the 7D is $1.699 and its currently sold for $1.549. The regular price of the 60D is $1.399 and it's sold for $1.299. IMO the 70D will be most likely a bit more expensive than the 60D without costing as much as the 7D... maybe around $1.499?

Don't forget that the 650D/T4i moved up the line as well, got the AF and the fps of the 60D. However, the price increase was only (at least in Germany) 50,- Euro (about $63).
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: canonrumorstony on July 01, 2012, 02:08:05 AM
The only reason
It would cannibalize the sales of the 1D X, thus I don't believe that this rumor comes true.

It most certainly would not because it would be nowhere near the price of the 1DX.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on July 01, 2012, 07:06:05 PM
the APS-H sensor is an advantage canon has to be able to combat the oposition sensor advantage
I am certain a 22 MP APS-H sensor will deliver better IQ accross the board than the sony 24MP sensor
sure the shadow areas are still going suffer canonitis but lets be realistic its probably 1% of camera users are probably even aware of this being an issue with canon sensors vs nikon

a 22MP APS-H will allow for a 14MP APS-C crop mode

so lets assume they use a single Digic 5+ and the 22MP APS-H delivers 6 FPS as per the 5Dmk3
however in APS-C mode that would equate to about 9.5 FPS for processing the same amount of data
maybe with the grip this might be able to be bumped up to 10 FPS (not sure)
crop mode being a selection you can make regardless of EF or EF-S lens not just lens specific so people can get the FPS boost with big whites, and obviously 14MP files in crop mode would give you a much deeper burst buffer for extended periods of action too

add in the gaples microlenses and the high iso improvements use the 5Dmk3 body, bolt the 1Dmk4 AF system in as is dont put the 61pt system in since the f8 AF of this system will guarantee its a winner no R&D here its good to go.

try keep the price closer to $2000 say $2200 would be smart to try and be competative (but realistically with canons pricing it could be $2500 or even $3000 depending what they are smoking when they decide on the price)

I dont think there would be a sports / wildlife shooter that would pass up something like this
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on July 02, 2012, 01:21:58 AM
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera?

Useful for cropping when I'm focal-length or magnification limited.

If more pixels weren't useful for this, teleconverters would also be useless, and they are not.  Even our old optics can do well with a 2x TC on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor, thus indicating that sensor could go to 72MP and still provide benefit even to an old zoom lens (100-400L).

100-400L + 2x on T2i:
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg)

That's like saying I'm shooting birds with a wide angle and need the extra pixels for cropping. Not really the right tools for the job.

There are wildlife situations that meet the objective above, namely FOV limited because you cannot get any closer, or buy longer glass,  in which case a higher pixel density crop sensor will outperform a larger sensor of the same generation, cropped in post to obtain the same FOV. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: nicku on July 02, 2012, 01:22:40 AM
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.

APS-H is D.E.A.D. It was only there for faster frame rates compared to FF. It was a compromise. Canon solved this with the 1DX. The whole point of a crop-sensor lens in a semi-pro body like 7D is just that - the crop factor! Otherwise you'd just get the 5DIII. My left nut to say that APS-H will never ever see the light of day ever again in a new body - it makes absolutely zero sense.



You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The APS-H sensor have no direct competitor
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on July 02, 2012, 01:46:52 AM
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.

APS-H is D.E.A.D. It was only there for faster frame rates compared to FF. It was a compromise. Canon solved this with the 1DX. The whole point of a crop-sensor lens in a semi-pro body like 7D is just that - the crop factor! Otherwise you'd just get the 5DIII. My left nut to say that APS-H will never ever see the light of day ever again in a new body - it makes absolutely zero sense.



You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The APS-H sensor have no direct competitor

yes. Canon's wildcard, so to speak.  1.3 could be dead, but if it is, it won't be because of the reasons stated.  It will be because the cost versus the compromise between reach and IQ is not in Canon's best interest. 

Also -- the point of a "crop sensor lens" is not (by itself) the crop factor,  it is the cost - APS-C lenses are cheaper to produce.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on July 02, 2012, 01:55:52 AM
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.



What if it could and was 1.3X crop as well ??

oh boy a 10-22 on a APS-H  body would be cool --  but I doubt that Canon would produce a 1.3x body that could accept today's EF-S lenses.  Clever engineering aside, such a body would utilize more of the image circle than these lenses were designed for, so the optical performance would likely be lackluster.  more vignetting, edges not so sharp...  :(
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on July 02, 2012, 01:57:04 AM
APS-H is D.E.A.D.

You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The marketing perspective is that  APS-H cannot command the same price as FF.
For example, which of these two cameras would you rather buy:

So, would you pay $3500 for the 5DIII-SP?

If you feel that the 1.3x version should cost less, you know the answer why Canon will never make it  8).
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on July 02, 2012, 02:13:10 AM
APS-H is D.E.A.D.

You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The marketing perspective is that  APS-H cannot command the same price as FF.
For example, which of these two cameras would you rather buy:
  • 5DIII: $3500
  • 5DIII-SP (SP=sports), with 16mp 1.3x sensor and 8fps: again, $3500

So, would you pay $3500 for the 5DIII-SP?

If you feel that the 1.3x version should cost less, you know the answer why Canon will never make it  8).

I would guess, that if it came in at 5DIII price (and why not - the 1D4 is not much more than the 5DIII) then there would be 2 distinct models, sport and portrait. Rather similar to the 5DII/7D paring which earnt Canon a pile of cash
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on July 02, 2012, 02:19:36 AM
APS-H is D.E.A.D.

You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The marketing perspective is that  APS-H cannot command the same price as FF.
For example, which of these two cameras would you rather buy:
  • 5DIII: $3500
  • 5DIII-SP (SP=sports), with 16mp 1.3x sensor and 8fps: again, $3500

So, would you pay $3500 for the 5DIII-SP?

If you feel that the 1.3x version should cost less, you know the answer why Canon will never make it  8).
Yes, if it had the 1Dmk4 AF including f8 capability, it would flat out wipe the floor with any APS-C in IQ terms
i'm assuming you are basing the 8FPS on an extrapolation of the DIGIC 5+ processing power to deliver 6FPS for the 22MP FF 5Dmk3. while the new AF system is nice and all this camera would benefit significantly more by keeping the robust AF of the 1D4 and giving people the f8 functionality back.

however I like my idea better of a 22MP APS-H sensor with 14MP crop mode delivering 6FPS and 10FPS respectively
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: MYB on July 02, 2012, 04:16:40 AM
Hi,
I think Canon needs a compact APS-H ( 5D body ) whatever it calls 7DII or something else. Bigger sensor gives better IQ and still have a bit reach for outdoor and if Canon keeps the f/8 AF advantage for using teleconverter, it satisfies a lot people.
Yes we can't use EF-S lenses on APS-H ( and comes out an ultra wide angle problem ) but it's Canons problem not mine. I can buy a Sigma DC or Tamron Di II. These lenses are causes only a bit vignette at the corners. But it's not bad at all. And if you don't want it you can crop the photo ( to 1.5, 1.6 ) when you will use it.
For example, if Canon makes a 22 MP APS-H and i have a Sigma 10-20mm DC. When i crop it to 1.5 still i have a 15mm 16MP photo ( x1.6 ~ 14MP ). I think 16MP is enough for most of people. Maybe Canon makes a crop mode.
Of course i'm not a professional and these are my opinions.

(I am not good at English. If i said something wrong, apologies).
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on July 02, 2012, 07:30:50 AM
There's no way the 7D replacement will not accept APS-C lenses. So no sensor bloat - that's just silly.

APS-H is D.E.A.D. It was only there for faster frame rates compared to FF. It was a compromise. Canon solved this with the 1DX. The whole point of a crop-sensor lens in a semi-pro body like 7D is just that - the crop factor! Otherwise you'd just get the 5DIII. My left nut to say that APS-H will never ever see the light of day ever again in a new body - it makes absolutely zero sense.





You forget one very important aspect of the whole picture: The marketing perspective

The APS-H sensor have no direct competitor

Do you ever recall seeing the 1D cameras advertising mentioning that it was APS-H or that it was a 1.3 crop and not a 1.6 or 1.0 crop?

Yes  it has been in most of the brochures
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on July 02, 2012, 07:59:28 PM
there are a couple of amusing outcomes

1.  If there is no APS-H body announced, I observe that the 1.3x fans will be a mite disappointed but largely accepting of the decision, while they figure out Canon's strategy re:  reach versus IQ and how it applies to them.  Meanwhile,  the "APS-H is dead" crowd will do the snoopy dance and say I told you so

2.  If there is an APS-H body announced, the 1.3x fans will do the snoopy dance and say I told you so, but the "APS-H is dead" crowd will have to seek therapy
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on July 02, 2012, 08:04:25 PM
there are a couple of amusing outcomes

1.  If there is no APS-H body announced, I observe that the 1.3x fans will be a mite disappointed but largely accepting of the decision, while they figure out Canon's strategy re:  reach versus IQ and how it applies to them.  Meanwhile,  the "APS-H is dead" crowd will do the snoopy dance and say I told you so

2.  If there is an APS-H body announced, the 1.3x fans will do the snoopy dance and say I told you so, but the "APS-H is dead" crowd will have to seek therapy

ROFL Nice summary, for me personally I would also just get a 1Dmk4 and live with the bulky body :P
unfortunately they are to cumbersome to do the snoopy dance with though
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
Post by: Eimajm on July 04, 2012, 03:42:14 PM
More megapixels for the 70D.... why do you need more megapixels on a prosumer camera?

Useful for cropping when I'm focal-length or magnification limited.

If more pixels weren't useful for this, teleconverters would also be useless, and they are not.  Even our old optics can do well with a 2x TC on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor, thus indicating that sensor could go to 72MP and still provide benefit even to an old zoom lens (100-400L).

100-400L + 2x on T2i:
http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg (http://photos.imageevent.com/sipphoto/samplepictures/T2i__3574%20edited.jpg)

That's like saying I'm shooting birds with a wide angle and need the extra pixels for cropping. Not really the right tools for the job.

I routinely need a zoom lens for shooting at long focal lengths because I'm shooting aircraft and they move quickly.  They move so quickly that handholding is required.  How many handholdable fast autofocus zoom lenses does Canon make longer than 400mm?  It's common for me to crop to 800-1200mm equivalent focal length, and those extra pixels are a big help.

Now, if Canon wants to make a nice, affordable, handholdable 100-1200 f/4-f/5.6, I'm all for it but I don't think that will happen any time in the foreseeable future as we don't even have materials that could meet those specs.

Well you are shooting at the same field of  view of pros I follow who shoot FF with 600s they crop minor for composition. Perhaps you need to improve your technique rather than 'need' more pixels. Shooting planes miles in the sky and cropping to way over 50% of the image is never going to give quality no matter how many pixels you have.