canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: mathino on July 01, 2012, 04:26:50 PM

Title: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: mathino on July 01, 2012, 04:26:50 PM
Hi all,

I'm currently 450D owner and I think that after 4 years it's time to upgrade. I'm mainly shooting portraits / street / gigs / DJs / low light / strobist.

My current gear ready for FF:
I already have 3 primes: EF 28 f/1.8 USM, EF 40 f/2.8 STM and 85 /f1.8 USM. Flash: 430EX II and triggers Cactus V4 and Pixel Kings for TTL. I also have Vivitar 285HV.

My friends can borrow me EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM, EF 70-200 f/4 L USM and EF 24-70 f/2.8 L USM - so zoom is not a problem when needed.

My options:
1.) buy 5D classic - I've read a lot of posts here and there - it has a really good reputation in terms of color and image quality even nowdays. AF is old but 5D Mk II has the same so no difference - when I need I just attach 430EX II for AF assist. Really important question is: how it is at ISO 1600 and 3200 ? I'm using my 450D at 1600 and do some post to correct noise with good results. I'm fine with 12 Mpx. Also used price is around 600 Euro.

2.) buy 5D Mk II - I'm sure it's a great camera. I've shot with it on one Canon event and was pleased even with photos at ISO 3200 and ocasionally at 6400 (always depends on actual situation). I know what this cam is capable of in terms of both stills and video. AFMA is a great feature becasue I'm a prime shooter. AF same as 5D as I mentioned before. There is also a possibility to hook it with Magic Lantern. As I've said before I'm fine with 12 Mpx.

3.) buy 5D and rent 5D Mk II when needed - until 5D Mk III price drops to affordable level...or some lower specd FF body will be announced.

My preferences and question for you:
I really want to upgrade straight to 5D Mk III, but the price is ridicolous (at least now). It has all I need/want from camera. I also want to keep the new cam for at least another 4 years (so I think that buying 5D Mk II is not so wise decision - reason is obvious = price). So what I'm really looking for now is your suggestion for the best temporary setup. What do you think ?

Thanks in advance  :)
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: bdunbar79 on July 01, 2012, 04:43:41 PM
5D Mark II is a great choice over the 5D for ISO performance.  Whether you need it or not, the 21 mp's will help you over the 5D.  Since the 5D was released in 2005/early 2006, you'd have to be careful of shutter count because it's not as durable as the 1D or 1Ds lines.  Actually, the 1Ds Mark II has higher IQ than the 5D and better ISO performance than the 5D, especially over 1600. 

Doubting the 5D Mark III price is going to drop soon, I'd probably go with a new 5D Mark II, if I were you.  Or get a refurbished one.  It's a great camera and it'll last you 4 years.  That's just what I would do.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Marsu42 on July 01, 2012, 06:42:54 PM
3.) buy 5D and rent 5D Mk II when needed - until 5D Mk III price drops to affordable level...or some lower specd FF body will be announced.

Starting from the current price, the 5d3 might not reach "affordable" in the foreseeable future, but rather "somewhat sane". Since it basically has the same sensor as the 5d2, if you don't need the upgraded servo af I don't see any killer feature that makes the 5d3 necessary. But there are endless threads on how to judge the individual updated features. My advice: Looking at your lens gear, the 5d3 is clearly overkill.

Depending on how critical your shooting is, I and many people whose advice I took would say that you need to own a camera body to get used to it. You can rent/borrow an expensive lens for special occasions if you want to (like the 70-200ii), but you need to know the exact camera body inside out.

I also want to keep the new cam for at least another 4 years (so I think that buying 5D Mk II is not so wise decision - reason is obvious = price). So what I'm really looking for now is your suggestion for the best temporary setup. What do you think ?

All setups are temporary, but I have to say that the span of 4 years seems rather long for bridging at least if you shoot a lot.

And I have to disagree with buying the 5d2 being unwise: It's as cheap as it'll get because its at the end of the product cycle, it runs magic lantern, it's still current tech e.g. working with the new radio flashes and it even has features for your primes that the 5d3 *doesn't* have: an exchangeable focusing screen that shows the real depth of field! And in 4 years you can upgrade straight to the 5d4 :-)
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: ddashti on July 01, 2012, 07:08:54 PM
Definitely go for the 5D Mark II in this case. The high ISO performance is pretty good, which you need.
But I'd say the 5D Mark III is even better (when/if you decide to get it, and if you save up for it).
In your case, however, go for the Mark II.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: mitchell3417 on July 01, 2012, 07:42:57 PM
I don't think the 5Dc goes above 1600 iso. 3200 is expandable and looks pretty questionable.

mark ii sounds like it fits your bill.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: japhoto on July 01, 2012, 07:44:53 PM
I'd choose the 1Ds MkII, even over the 5D MkII, but it all boils down to what you shoot. In fact I did choose the 1Ds MkII, but I rarely go over ISO400, so the worse ISO performance isn't a problem for me.

That said, if you would be satisfied with the 5Dc, the 1Ds MkII is better than it in pretty much all areas.

The issue with going 1-series is that you don't want to go back to "prosumer" cameras anymore...
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: bdunbar79 on July 01, 2012, 08:07:06 PM
I'd choose the 1Ds MkII, even over the 5D MkII, but it all boils down to what you shoot. In fact I did choose the 1Ds MkII, but I rarely go over ISO400, so the worse ISO performance isn't a problem for me.

That said, if you would be satisfied with the 5Dc, the 1Ds MkII is better than it in pretty much all areas.

The issue with going 1-series is that you don't want to go back to "prosumer" cameras anymore...

The problem is, the 1Ds Mark II is going to run about $1500 on ebay give or take.  He can get a refurbished 5D Mark II for $1800ish.  The IQ of the 1Ds Mark II is not better than the 5D Mark II.  I agree it is close in IQ up to ISO 400, but beyond that, the 5D Mark II is better.  Same with 1Ds III vs. 5D Mark II.  The 1Ds III is much better ISO 50-200, but beyond, it's not better, perhaps just as good but not better.

That aside, if you get a 1Ds Mark II, you'll be fine.  But you can get a newer camera.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: japhoto on July 01, 2012, 08:11:37 PM
I'd choose the 1Ds MkII, even over the 5D MkII, but it all boils down to what you shoot. In fact I did choose the 1Ds MkII, but I rarely go over ISO400, so the worse ISO performance isn't a problem for me.

That said, if you would be satisfied with the 5Dc, the 1Ds MkII is better than it in pretty much all areas.

The issue with going 1-series is that you don't want to go back to "prosumer" cameras anymore...

The problem is, the 1Ds Mark II is going to run about $1500 on ebay give or take.  He can get a refurbished 5D Mark II for $1800ish.  The IQ of the 1Ds Mark II is not better than the 5D Mark II.  I agree it is close in IQ up to ISO 400, but beyond that, the 5D Mark II is better.  Same with 1Ds III vs. 5D Mark II.  The 1Ds III is much better ISO 50-200, but beyond, it's not better, perhaps just as good but not better.

That aside, if you get a 1Ds Mark II, you'll be fine.  But you can get a newer camera.

True and the reason I went this route is the build quality, weather sealing and especially the AF system compared to the 5D MkII. So if those things are important, it makes the 1Ds MkII a good choice.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: bdunbar79 on July 01, 2012, 09:19:44 PM
It has to be a good choice.  I remember in early 2005 that was retailing for $8000 some places!
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: well_dunno on July 01, 2012, 09:24:49 PM
+1 for the 5D mk II with the same arguments that have been presented earlier in the thread. Perhaps second hand options if the current retail price is beyond reach?

Cheers!

Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: paulc on July 01, 2012, 11:11:10 PM
1600 on my 5D looks like 800 on my 400D.  I seem to recall the 400 and 450 were pretty much dead even on ISO performance.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Erizo on July 02, 2012, 04:09:19 AM
I'd suggest to choose between the 5D II and the 1Ds II, they should be at a similar price point used.

5D II has a better performance at high ISO (I guess ~ 1 Stop)
1Ds II has better auto-focus

I've considered the 1Ds II because the fact that only the center AF point is reliable on the 5D II was quite annoying after a while. If you don't need live view, I don't see much speaking against the 1Ds II.

Then there is the 1Ds III which can be had slightly used around 2500 €... but then you move even closer to 5D III price levels.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: The Bad Duck on July 02, 2012, 04:17:17 AM
From your own sugestions I would say go for 5D mkII. Everything has been said about IQ but I want to make a few points about other features that I did not really want when I upgraded from 5D Classic, but that I now would not want to live without. (I can not compare to 1-series because I have never used any 1-series camera).

- Sensor cleaning - if you switch lenses... this is a great help.
- Better LCD - yes, it makes a difference. Now I have a much better help at actually see the image. On 5D mkI and the 30D I was using before the LCD was merely giving a hint of the image, now it´s much more acurate.
- Micro adjustment for your lenses - Just great, although I only had to change the setting for one or two of my lenses. My 50 /1.4 went from rather ok on my 30D to very good on the 5d mkII, probably because of this.
- Live view - helpful sometimes. 1/200 images or so.
- Controll TTL-flashes from camera (with masterflash or flashtrigger) - Great when shooting in changing ambient light or changing light - subject distance.

There might be more small upgrades that I fail to remember right now, but my point is that the 5D mkII has more to offer compared to 5D classic appart from higher IQ @ high iso and higher resolution. It is really a kickass camera, and as you say, with a flash mounted for AF support (only in one shot AF) it often hits the spot even on dancefloors.

Good luck!
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: mathino on July 02, 2012, 04:19:28 AM
Thank you for all your responses  :)

After reading all I see your point. I think I'll be happy with 5D Mk II. I'm shooting mainly stuff that my current AF can handle so I think 5D Mk II AF will do well (it is/was my main concern). I've seen tons of pics made with 5D Mk II at 3200+ ISO with great results (with NR for sure) - I'd be really happy with that. And having warranty is also great if something fails. Problem is that new 5D Mk II goes here for 1919 Euro - so I need to wait a little longer. I want to buy it at specific store because they have service in Vienna - every other store has one service center which doesn't have good reputation (they "managed" to scratch mirror and sensor).

Thanks for advises  ;)
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Marsu42 on July 02, 2012, 04:39:34 AM
I've seen tons of pics made with 5D Mk II at 3200+ ISO with great results (with NR for sure) - I'd be really happy with that. And having warranty is also great if something fails.

It's funny how reading reviews and seeing established pros or well-off people buy the 5d3 will engineer you into thinking only the latest and greatest is able to take good pictures, isn't it :-p ?

Half a year ago the 5d2 (except for the af) was famed in Canon-land and had the best non-1d Canon sensor on the planet ... and in the tutorial books and videos I see many pros using the 5d2 for excellent results instead of the chunkier 1d, so you and I should be ok, too :-)

Quote from: mathino link=topic=7741.msg141634#msg141634
Problem is that new 5D Mk II goes here for 1919 Euro - so I need to wait a little longer. I want to buy it at specific store because they have service in Vienna - every other store has one service center which doesn't have good reputation (they "managed" to scratch mirror and sensor).

Fyi: In Germany, even good photo stores have it a little below €1800. It's good to buy your gear at a local store, because they record your purchases and will treat you accordingly in the future. Having said that, for every real defect, they'll send it to Canon anyway - so if you have a Canon service center around the corner like me in Berlin, you can carry a broken camera or lens there right away and save time.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: mathino on July 02, 2012, 05:15:06 AM
Quote
Fyi: In Germany, even good photo stores have it a little below €1800. It's good to buy your gear at a local store, because they record your purchases and will treat you accordingly in the future. Having said that, for every real defect, they'll send it to Canon anyway - so if you have a Canon service center around the corner like me in Berlin, you can carry a broken camera or lens there right away and save time.

I live in Slovakia so nearest good service is in Vienna (as far as I know). Only one shop here has direct service there. Other shops/purchases has one service "center" - but I haven't heard anything good about it - they have monopol on Canon stuff here. I'll check also some German shops.

Do you know how it is with EU/international warranty period ?
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Marsu42 on July 02, 2012, 06:01:05 AM
Do you know how it is with EU/international warranty period ?

Canon doesn't seem to give any extended warranty like e.g. Tamron, so basically you're getting the eu-wide standard warranty specified in 1999/44/EG (I'm not a lawyer, just looked it up again): during the first 6 month they have to prove a warranty case it's your fault, the time up to 2 years it's the other way around. Some shops offer a warranty extension, if that's what you want.

Since the warranty is by the shop that sold you the gear, you have to ask if you can directly give a warranty case to any Canon service (the answer will most likely be yes, because as I wrote that's where they'll send it to anyway). More and more people in the European Union are shopping in other EU countries if the price is lower, just to be sure to ask the dealer about warranty arrangements. Or just buy it on Amazon, bankrupting yo friendly ol' local shop around the corner :-p

http://www.amazon.de/Canon-Mark-SLR-Digitalkamera-Megapixel-Geh%C3%A4use/dp/B001G7PBIC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341223128&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.de/Canon-Mark-SLR-Digitalkamera-Megapixel-Geh%C3%A4use/dp/B001G7PBIC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341223128&sr=8-1)
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: RLPhoto on July 02, 2012, 12:15:03 PM
Hi all,

I'm currently 450D owner and I think that after 4 years it's time to upgrade. I'm mainly shooting portraits / street / gigs / DJs / low light / strobist.

My current gear ready for FF:
I already have 3 primes: EF 28 f/1.8 USM, EF 40 f/2.8 STM and 85 /f1.8 USM. Flash: 430EX II and triggers Cactus V4 and Pixel Kings for TTL. I also have Vivitar 285HV.

My friends can borrow me EF 70-200 f/2.8 L IS USM, EF 70-200 f/4 L USM and EF 24-70 f/2.8 L USM - so zoom is not a problem when needed.

My options:
1.) buy 5D classic - I've read a lot of posts here and there - it has a really good reputation in terms of color and image quality even nowdays. AF is old but 5D Mk II has the same so no difference - when I need I just attach 430EX II for AF assist. Really important question is: how it is at ISO 1600 and 3200 ? I'm using my 450D at 1600 and do some post to correct noise with good results. I'm fine with 12 Mpx. Also used price is around 600 Euro.

2.) buy 5D Mk II - I'm sure it's a great camera. I've shot with it on one Canon event and was pleased even with photos at ISO 3200 and ocasionally at 6400 (always depends on actual situation). I know what this cam is capable of in terms of both stills and video. AFMA is a great feature becasue I'm a prime shooter. AF same as 5D as I mentioned before. There is also a possibility to hook it with Magic Lantern. As I've said before I'm fine with 12 Mpx.

3.) buy 5D and rent 5D Mk II when needed - until 5D Mk III price drops to affordable level...or some lower specd FF body will be announced.

My preferences and question for you:
I really want to upgrade straight to 5D Mk III, but the price is ridicolous (at least now). It has all I need/want from camera. I also want to keep the new cam for at least another 4 years (so I think that buying 5D Mk II is not so wise decision - reason is obvious = price). So what I'm really looking for now is your suggestion for the best temporary setup. What do you think ?

Thanks in advance  :)

As someone who use's the 5Dc alot, I can say its IQ is still better than any APS-C camera canon makes. You will see a huge difference jumping to FF from crop.

Its ISO performance is still good, I've used all of its ISO settings with good results. Its H level or 3200 ISO is a bit limiting but still better than my 7D.

You can find them around 700$ on the used market, but try to get a body that was a back-up unit and make sure the mirror fix has been completed.

You can use it until you have the dough for the mk3, then sell the 5Dc for almost what you payed for it. You could buy two 5Dc's for the price of one MK2 if your shooting all primes. (which I also do)

Even better, you can buy the EG-S screen to see DOF thinner that 2.8. An advantage that the MK3 doesnt even have.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: RLPhoto on July 02, 2012, 01:12:48 PM
You could buy two 5Dc's for the price of one MK2 if your shooting all primes. (which I also do)
If you use Canon's tilt-shift primes, you need Live View.  Shooting non-Canon primes can be done with the viewfinder if you have an adapter with an AF chip, but this shooting benefits from Live View, too.  I am under the impression the 5Dc does not have Live View.

This advise was for the OP who has all primes and would benefit greatly of using two primes on two bodies. If your needs are different, you could start a thread if you'd like.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: RLPhoto on July 02, 2012, 03:05:13 PM
This advise was for the OP who has all primes and would benefit greatly of using two primes on two bodies. If your needs are different, you could start a thread if you'd like.
If the OP shoots portraits using Live View, as I and others sometimes do, he may use Live View.  therefore my post has relevance to the OP's intended use of the camera.  The 5D does not offer this functionality.  If you want to be defensive, perhaps you can start a separate thread on that.

Of course, because shooting with $1000+ Tilt-shift primes in live-view for street photography is the hot-thing right now.  ::)
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: bdunbar79 on July 02, 2012, 03:23:36 PM
This advise was for the OP who has all primes and would benefit greatly of using two primes on two bodies. If your needs are different, you could start a thread if you'd like.
If the OP shoots portraits using Live View, as I and others sometimes do, he may use Live View.  therefore my post has relevance to the OP's intended use of the camera.  The 5D does not offer this functionality.  If you want to be defensive, perhaps you can start a separate thread on that.

Or you could read his original post.  Streets, portraits, concerts, low-light.  How is a tilt-shift lens at max ap f/3.5 going to be better than a 24 f/1.4?  The 24 f/1.4L is cheaper and suits his needs more.  A TS lens is for landscape photography and architectural shots, a specialty lens.  For his wide variety of shots, the 24mm is hands down way better than the TS lens.  So, we ARE going off what the OP needs.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: RLPhoto on July 02, 2012, 03:30:36 PM
This advise was for the OP who has all primes and would benefit greatly of using two primes on two bodies. If your needs are different, you could start a thread if you'd like.
If the OP shoots portraits using Live View, as I and others sometimes do, he may use Live View.  therefore my post has relevance to the OP's intended use of the camera.  The 5D does not offer this functionality.  If you want to be defensive, perhaps you can start a separate thread on that.

Or you could read his original post.  Streets, portraits, concerts, low-light.  How is a tilt-shift lens at max ap f/3.5 going to be better than a 24 f/1.4?  The 24 f/1.4L is cheaper and suits his needs more.  A TS lens is for landscape photography and architectural shots, a specialty lens.  For his wide variety of shots, the 24mm is hands down way better than the TS lens.  So, we ARE going off what the OP needs.

*Facepalm
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: mathino on July 02, 2012, 04:16:26 PM
Hey ! Chill out  :D

I'm mainly using viewfinder but sometimes (I do landscapes now and then, manual focus) I'm using Live View - so this is really good feature for me. Replacable focusing screens are good - I hope my manual Pentacon 135 f/2.8 (15 aperture blades) will arrive soon  :)

In my case - TS lenses are not something I would buy - maybe rent, but I doubt it. I would rather upgrade my current 28 f/1.8 USM to 24 f/1.4 L USM.

...so, I will definitely rent 5D Mk II for weekend and try everything out. My friend has wedding at the beginning of september - so maybe this will be a good event to check it (I wont be official photog).
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Marsu42 on July 02, 2012, 05:00:33 PM
I'm using Live View - so this is really good feature for me.

Then you'll love Magic Lantern's live view options on the 5d2 (focus peaking, zebras, other exposure guides, s/w mode, multiple display profiles, ...)!
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: crasher8 on July 02, 2012, 05:06:29 PM
You can get a 5Dmk 2 for 1400 on CLP
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: mathino on July 02, 2012, 05:54:55 PM
You can get a 5Dmk 2 for 1400 on CLP

Thanks for info, Ill check if there is any option for Europe (I live in Slovakia).  :)

EDIT: No such great deals here. We even dont have a refurb store. It is really starting to piss me off. In U.S. 5D Mk III goes for 3500 USD (= 2780 Eur) body only - here ? 3100 Eur (= 3900 USD). 5D Mk II in U.S. - 2200 USD (= 1750 Eur), here 1919 Eur (= 2415 USD). No deals, no rabate programs...just stupid moneybacks (ofc not for camera bodies).
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: wickidwombat on July 02, 2012, 08:33:51 PM
I've seen tons of pics made with 5D Mk II at 3200+ ISO with great results (with NR for sure) - I'd be really happy with that. And having warranty is also great if something fails.

It's funny how reading reviews and seeing established pros or well-off people buy the 5d3 will engineer you into thinking only the latest and greatest is able to take good pictures, isn't it :-p ?

Half a year ago the 5d2 (except for the af) was famed in Canon-land and had the best non-1d Canon sensor on the planet ... and in the tutorial books and videos I see many pros using the 5d2 for excellent results instead of the chunkier 1d, so you and I should be ok, too :-)

Quote from: mathino link=topic=7741.msg141634#msg141634
Problem is that new 5D Mk II goes here for 1919 Euro - so I need to wait a little longer. I want to buy it at specific store because they have service in Vienna - every other store has one service center which doesn't have good reputation (they "managed" to scratch mirror and sensor).

Fyi: In Germany, even good photo stores have it a little below €1800. It's good to buy your gear at a local store, because they record your purchases and will treat you accordingly in the future. Having said that, for every real defect, they'll send it to Canon anyway - so if you have a Canon service center around the corner like me in Berlin, you can carry a broken camera or lens there right away and save time.
the 5D2 still produces great images thats why i never sold mine they provide a very solid side by side option with the mk3 the biggest pain in the arse is the image review is different bewteen the 2 it gets frustrating i hope a firmware fix to enable image review zooming using the top right buttons instead of the wheel comes soon for the mk3
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Mistah.vega on July 02, 2012, 11:49:44 PM
You may want to check out the 7D, I am a 5DMK2 owner. I just picked up the the 7D and I like it a lot, I find myself using it more than the 5DMK2.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: mathino on July 03, 2012, 03:42:07 AM
You may want to check out the 7D, I am a 5DMK2 owner. I just picked up the the 7D and I like it a lot, I find myself using it more than the 5DMK2.

I had 7D for weekend (borrowed from my friend). It's a great cam, great AF, FPS is a nice bonus - and ofc the new firmware v2. But I want to go FF because of ISO and I want my 28 f/1.8  to be 28  ;)
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: n0iZe on July 04, 2012, 03:26:26 PM
I'd choose the 1Ds MkII, even over the 5D MkII, but it all boils down to what you shoot. In fact I did choose the 1Ds MkII, but I rarely go over ISO400, so the worse ISO performance isn't a problem for me.

That said, if you would be satisfied with the 5Dc, the 1Ds MkII is better than it in pretty much all areas.

The issue with going 1-series is that you don't want to go back to "prosumer" cameras anymore...

I don't find the ISO performance of the 1Ds Mark II as troubling as you say there.

I have also upgraded from a 450D to a 1Ds Mark II. At first I wanted it as a temporary camera, to get used to shooting full frame, weight etc. However, now it has a place in my heart and I know that I won't be able to kick it out of there. When compared, the 1Ds Mark II does of course kick the 450D's ass - that's the way it should be, right?

However, there are some points you have to live with if you go for the 1Ds Mark II:
- ISO, AF, MODE (all on the left of the top side) are pretty hard to setup - you'll need two hands
- Screen: it's pretty crappy. You need the feeling for the exposure (or stick with what the 1Ds Mark II tells you), because you really do not want to judge shots and their exposure from that small, reflecting display
- All the buttons and combinations: you'll have quite a time to figure out how to zoom in and move the magnifier in the picture. At least it took me some time, maybe it's just my stupidity.

Other than that rest assured it's even though discontinued a top tier camera which is capable of doing excellent shots. Here's my favorite shot (not retouched but sadly JPG only, I'll upload the RAW full size shot if someone's interested) I did with the 1Ds Mark II and the 16-35mm in a church:
(http://th01.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/063/2/a/acrophobia_by_viraly-d4rp7wg.jpg)

If you want the camera to shoot and don't care about fancy menus, fast switching of ISO and screen, this one is for you.
If you can't live without these things, then get yourself a 5D Mark II.

Of course the camera has many pro points, but I won't take the time to list those as well. Either one is able to live with the negative points or one shall get a different camera.

By the way: I bought my 1Ds Mark II used for only $1300 at a local store with 1 year warranty. Battery is still amazing, I rarely have to charge it.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: bdunbar79 on July 04, 2012, 03:38:00 PM
True.  But the IQ of the 5D Mark II is better at all ISO's than the 1Ds II.  The Digic III doesn't compete in this case with the Digic IV either.  I personally would not buy a 1Ds II unless I couldn't afford a new 5D Mark II.  2004 technology vs. 2008 technology is actually a fairly large distance here.  And yes, you will notice on FF 16.7 MP vs. 21 MP.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: n0iZe on July 05, 2012, 06:00:24 AM
True.  But the IQ of the 5D Mark II is better at all ISO's than the 1Ds II.  The Digic III doesn't compete in this case with the Digic IV either.  I personally would not buy a 1Ds II unless I couldn't afford a new 5D Mark II.  2004 technology vs. 2008 technology is actually a fairly large distance here.  And yes, you will notice on FF 16.7 MP vs. 21 MP.

Of course there is a difference. It would be horrible if not!  ;)

However, if someone doesn't have the budget to afford a 5D Mk II or prefers to own the lenses instead of borrowing them from friends. Not all people have friends with nice lenses who are willing to borrow them, so I just wanted to give an option for the other people thinking about going "full in".
Always remember: it's better to own an "out-dated" body with good lenses instead of owning a newer body with only Tamron/Sigma lenses. (I know, some of them are fine. But truth is that most of them are clearly not.)
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Marsu42 on July 05, 2012, 06:17:20 AM
Always remember: it's better to own an "out-dated" body with good lenses instead of owning a newer body with only Tamron/Sigma lenses. (I know, some of them are fine. But truth is that most of them are clearly not.)

I wouldn't subscribe to that view, because you are not getting "most of them", but only specific ones - and many are better than their comparable Canon equivalents. For me, the body-lens combination has to make sense for the specific application. For lower light, I'd personally rather use a 5d2 with a 3rd party lens than some older sensor with an L lens... in fact that's why I'll get a Tamron 24-70vc instead of the $2000+ new Canon version. Lenses might be a more future-proof investment, but not at the expense of the present.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: RLPhoto on July 05, 2012, 08:21:54 AM
Always remember: it's better to own an "out-dated" body with good lenses instead of owning a newer body with only Tamron/Sigma lenses. (I know, some of them are fine. But truth is that most of them are clearly not.)

I wouldn't subscribe to that view, because you are not getting "most of them", but only specific ones - and many are better than their comparable Canon equivalents. For me, the body-lens combination has to make sense for the specific application. For lower light, I'd personally rather use a 5d2 with a 3rd party lens than some older sensor with an L lens... in fact that's why I'll get a Tamron 24-70vc instead of the $2000+ new Canon version. Lenses might be a more future-proof investment, but not at the expense of the present.

Lenses are always more important than body's. They affect the final output of the pictures far more than the body. A 1Dx with a slow sigma will lose out to a 550D with a whole set of L lenses in terms of the final product.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Marsu42 on July 05, 2012, 01:52:40 PM
A 1Dx with a slow sigma will lose out to a 550D with a whole set of L lenses in terms of the final product.

Imho very likely, but not necessarily true. And 1dx vs 550d maybe is a bit drastic, don't you think (I know digitalrev's cheap lens/body comparison)? The real world questions often will concern the choice between 7d/5d2/5d3 and for example lenses like Sigma 50/1.4 and Canon 50/1.2 or Tamron 24-70/2.8 and Canon 24-70/2.8.

And only having the final product in mind is recommendable, but not the whole picture because it's no good if your af missed the shot, there were too few fps to capture the moment or your card broke because you didn't have a dual-card body, and so on...

And in my case: I'm going to get a 5d2+Tamron 24-70vc as a basic wedding setup - do you really think I'd be better off with a 7d+Canon 24-70?
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: n0iZe on July 05, 2012, 01:55:49 PM
Always remember: it's better to own an "out-dated" body with good lenses instead of owning a newer body with only Tamron/Sigma lenses. (I know, some of them are fine. But truth is that most of them are clearly not.)

I wouldn't subscribe to that view, because you are not getting "most of them", but only specific ones - and many are better than their comparable Canon equivalents. For me, the body-lens combination has to make sense for the specific application. For lower light, I'd personally rather use a 5d2 with a 3rd party lens than some older sensor with an L lens... in fact that's why I'll get a Tamron 24-70vc instead of the $2000+ new Canon version. Lenses might be a more future-proof investment, but not at the expense of the present.

I ask you: what is ISO worth if the image quality is bad because of the lens?

Will you be like "Oh right, the picture's not sharp, there's loads of chromatic aberration - but hey, look at that background, there's absolutely no ISO noise visible."


For me I prefer some ISO noise at 100% crops over an unsharp picture with CA.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Marsu42 on July 05, 2012, 02:11:33 PM
I ask you: what is ISO worth if the image quality is bad because of the lens?

There are shades of gray between good and bad, you know - a lens might be sharp in the center, but have problems in the edges, there's no overall way to say if this is good or bad.

First: The Tamron 24-70vc at much less than half the price than the new Canon has at least the same iq as the old Canon lens.

Second: For a wedding, I won't need life-size prints with a pixel-sharp lens @21mp, but I will need higher iso capability that the aps-c sensor simply cannot deliver.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: RLPhoto on July 05, 2012, 02:13:38 PM
A 1Dx with a slow sigma will lose out to a 550D with a whole set of L lenses in terms of the final product.

Imho very likely, but not necessarily true. And 1dx vs 550d maybe is a bit drastic, don't you think (I know digitalrev's cheap lens/body comparison)? The real world questions often will concern the choice between 7d/5d2/5d3 and for example lenses like Sigma 50/1.4 and Canon 50/1.2 or Tamron 24-70/2.8 and Canon 24-70/2.8.

And only having the final product in mind is recommendable, but not the whole picture because it's no good if your af missed the shot, there were too few fps to capture the moment or your card broke because you didn't have a dual-card body, and so on...

And in my case: I'm going to get a 5d2+Tamron 24-70vc as a basic wedding setup - do you really think I'd be better off with a 7d+Canon 24-70?
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: n0iZe on July 05, 2012, 02:19:46 PM
I ask you: what is ISO worth if the image quality is bad because of the lens?

There are shades of gray between good and bad, you know? First: The Tamron 24-70vc at much less than half the price than the new Canon has at least the same iq as the old Canon lens. Second: For a wedding, I won't need life-size prints with a pixel-sharp lens @21mp, but I will need higher iso capability that the aps-c sensor simply cannot deliver.

I'm fully aware of that. And I also know that my verdicts are pretty pithy.

However when referring to cheap Tamron and Sigma lenses, I didn't mean lenses as the 24-70VC. This wasn't one of the low-end lenses that I meant to refer to (e.g. 70-300 by Tamron or 70-300 by Sigma).
I'm sure the 24-70VC will do just fine, for it's not exactly cheap glass.

Who needs life-size prints? Very, very few people do. However, the crying was tremendous when the 1D X with ONLY 18 Megapixels was announced.

Also, I wouldn't count wedding photos into the "mainly stills" topic - there's still pretty much of a movement there, and one shot lost is one shot lost forever. While by doing stills, you can take your time.

In the end I didn't want to say that ISO is unimportant. I just wanted to say that if I had to choose between better lenses or better body, I'd go with the lenses.

Cheers,
n0iZe
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: Marsu42 on July 05, 2012, 02:29:05 PM
facepalm.jpg

:-) I take it since you are at a loss for words, I was correct. And because you deteriorate the discussion to a level I don't want to participate in, I'll stop discussing on this with you.

I'm sure the 24-70VC will do just fine, for it's not exactly cheap glass.

I hope it will - it's about the best gear for a specific job after all.

My point is that the usual lens vs. body discussion is only focused on low-priced products, but it's much harder to decide when comparing products that are all good like the 24-70s or maybe 50 prime lenses.

I had a very hard time deciding between the 70-200/2.8L2+tc and the 70-300L because of this "get only the best glass" religion. Momentarily, I'm very happy with the 70-300L because I just got back from a day out with 60d+70-300L+600rt and nearly cannot feel my arm anymore, I really wouldn't want an even heavier lens with more torque on my wrist no matter what.

Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: RLPhoto on July 05, 2012, 02:31:51 PM
facepalm.jpg

:-) I take it since you are at a loss for words, I was correct. And because you deteriorate the discussion to a level I don't want to participate in, I'll stop discussing on this with you.


Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: bdunbar79 on July 05, 2012, 02:35:23 PM
facepalm.jpg

:-) I take it since you are at a loss for words, I was correct. And because you deteriorate the discussion to a level I don't want to participate in, I'll stop discussing on this with you.

Fantastic.  Not to deteriote conversations with anyone, I enjoy all discussions with everyone on here; this just happened to be particularly funny.
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: preppyak on July 05, 2012, 02:57:27 PM
Looks like someone just discovered memes
Title: Re: FF advise (mainly stills)
Post by: crasher8 on July 05, 2012, 04:46:11 PM
(http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/15386582.jpg)