canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Third Party Manufacturers => Topic started by: TonyY on September 13, 2012, 01:00:24 AM

Title: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: TonyY on September 13, 2012, 01:00:24 AM
http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-d600 (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-d600)

Sensor: 24,3MP CMOS  Total: 24.7 million

Image size

FX 36mm x 24mm :
6,016 x 4,016 (L) 4,512 x 3,008 (M) 3,008 x 2,008 (S)

DX 24mm x 16mm
3,936 x 2,624 (L) 2,944 x 1,968 (M) 1,968 x 1,312 (S)

FX-format photographs taken in movie live view :
6,016 x 3,376 (L) 4,512 x 2,528 (M) 3,008 x 1,688 (S)

DX-format photographs in movie live view :
3,936 x 2,224 (L) 2,944 x 1,664 (M) 1,968 x 1,112 (S)

ISO 100 ~ 6,400. ( 50 - 25600)

Finder: 100% coverage.

AF: 39 points.

Shutter: 1/4,000 ~ 30 sec, bulb. Carbon fiber and Kevlar, tested to 150,000 cycles.

2,016-Segment RGB Meter

Flash Sync: 1/200. Built-in Flash

Frame Rate: 5,5 FPS.

Rear LCD: Exquisite 3.2," 921,000 pixels.

Video

The Nikon D600 can capture Full HD (1080p; 1,920 x 1,080 pixel) video at either 24, 25 or 30 frames per. For 720p (1,280 x 720 pixel) video, a rate of 60 frames per second is possible. Video can either be shot using data from pixels across the entire width of the image sensor in FX mode, or with a 1.5x (DX-format) focal length crop, taking data from the center of the imager, without affecting the video resolution.

Videos are recorded using H.264 / MPEG-4 AVC format compression, maximum clip length is 29 minutes, 59. Even more unusually, it's possible to have the live feed piped to the D600's HDMI port as an uncompressed full HD signal, allowing it to be recorded using an external device and/or routed to an external monitor. If desired, this signal can be mirrored on the camera's own LCD display at the same time; the off-camera feed doesn't have any overlays added, so as not to impact external recording devices.

And the time-lapse photography function can be used to automatically photograph relatively slow moving action
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: robbymack on September 13, 2012, 01:12:21 AM
So 6d if it exists will come in at 2500
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: EYEONE on September 13, 2012, 01:15:40 AM
I'm not really impressed by this camera. Only considering the price. I really thought it would be lower and more of a game changer. If Canon could get the 6D at $1999 it could make some waves.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: cliffwang on September 13, 2012, 01:19:55 AM
- 22MP vs 24MP
- 19 AF vs 39 AF
- 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
- non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync

Based on the spec the price of 6D should be very close to D600.  However, you know recently Canon's price is not good.  Thus, I would guess the price of 6D will be about 2500.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: TonyY on September 13, 2012, 01:33:43 AM
I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Axilrod on September 13, 2012, 01:36:02 AM
- 22MP vs 24MP
- 19 AF vs 39 AF
- 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
- non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync

Based on the spec the price of 6D should be very close to D600.  However, you know recently Canon's price is not good.  Thus, I would guess the price of 6D will be about 2500.

I think that's too close to the 5D3.  5D3's have been selling on eBay (non-gray market) for under $3k for months.  I've seen one close to new listed on CL for $2700 up for the last week, it blows my mind that no one has jumped not hat yet and worries me about ever reselling mine.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: pj1974 on September 13, 2012, 01:36:48 AM
While I'm not planning to buy the D600 (mainly because I'm invested into Canon glass) - I do see this as good competition - that will ulimately benefit us as consumers.

Nikon is Canon's main DSLR rival. The price is 'ok' for a decent full frame (FF) body. If Nikon's (aka Sony's) sensors of late are anything to go by, the image quality will probably be of a very high quality.

It's true that there was a budget FF DSLR announced about 5 years ago (the Sony 850), which received lots of praise at the time for what it offered. Technology has progressed since.  Many users are not as happy with Nikons 39pt AF (compared to the other 51pt AF offerings).

I currently own a Canon 7D, and am very happy with its 19pt AF (responsive, accurate and good spread) - even for when I use it for Birds in Flight (BIF). Of course more (good, fast, accurate cross-type points are often preferred). But the 7D's AF is good. If the rumoured 6D uses a similar AF system, that would be good enough for me for a FF.

Meanwhile, I'm looking down the track to what Canon might be putting in a 7DmkII....   But I expect yes, if the Nikon D600 rrp is $2100, probably a Canon 6D would be a few hundred dollars more..... maybe $2399?

Paul
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: mitch.o on September 13, 2012, 01:39:10 AM
I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.

Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Aglet on September 13, 2012, 01:52:49 AM
That D600 is a very nicely spec'd unit for the price.

http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm)

has enough good features and customization to do virtually anything any non-pro will ever need, and should cover what most pros need too.

I like it.
But with 4 Nik bodies already on hand I can certainly wait to see what Canon's response will be and how each of these new "budget" FF bodies perform on the test charts.

I hope that its sensor performs at least as well as the D800's.
Considering the slightly larger pixels, it could perform even better if it hasn't been compromised by marketing.

Viva la competition!

update edit - found the brochure link too

http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/pdf/d600_20p.pdf (http://chsvimg.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/pdf/d600_20p.pdf)

.. from page 4, upper left paragraph, ".. while keeping noise remarkably low throughout the wide ISO range, and even further reduced at ISO 100."

Recent Nikon bodies already have impressively low noise at 100 ISO.
If this thing is even better, well, then I'm salivating.

there's more on that page about how they deal with noise.

I'm very interested to see how this performs and how Canon will compete with their next FF body.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: TonyY on September 13, 2012, 02:01:10 AM
I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.

Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.

I guess they will be lossing the game then.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: cliffwang on September 13, 2012, 02:22:14 AM
- 22MP vs 24MP
- 19 AF vs 39 AF
- 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
- non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync

Based on the spec the price of 6D should be very close to D600.  However, you know recently Canon's price is not good.  Thus, I would guess the price of 6D will be about 2500.

I think that's too close to the 5D3.  5D3's have been selling on eBay (non-gray market) for under $3k for months.  I've seen one close to new listed on CL for $2700 up for the last week, it blows my mind that no one has jumped not hat yet and worries me about ever reselling mine.

The list price of 5D3 is still 3500.  The list price of 6D is very possible about 2500.  As you mention people could get a 5D3 from authorized dealer for about 2900-3000 nowadays.  That means people could get 6D for about 2000-2200 if they are not lazy to do their homework.  I got my 5D3 for under 3K.  Just recommend slickdeals.net for lazy people to find good deals.  All my camera and lenses deals are from the website and all about 80%- of the list price.  The only thing is you have to wait for deals.  That's not really a good way to buy gears for PROs.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: cliffwang on September 13, 2012, 02:28:48 AM
I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.

Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.

I guess they will be lossing the game then.

That will take many many years.  Canon won't keep their high price for long.  The high pricing strategy won't hurt Canon much for now because it really has high market share.  And high margin can bring Canon more profits.  What Canon needs to do is changing the pricing strategy when it notice losing its customers.  From business point of view, Canon is probably doing great job.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 02:37:17 AM
I have a Sony Nex 5N, the APS-C image quality is as good as my loved 5D MarkII, from all the review I've read, Sony sensor is better than Canon. Canon should lower their price, they thought they were still in 5D and 5D Mark II time that dominating the market.

Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.

I respectfully disagree.  The market also dictates the price.  Canon surely before it releases something will study the market and release their product at a competitive price.  You don't operate a business without looking at the current market.  I think all their bosses know business management and knows this cardinal rule in business.  Well, at least I can say Canon tries hard to keep up with the market.  It's just their sensor technology is the one that's failing them.  In the case of 5D3, do you think if they had offered a lot better sensor then it will more than justify the cost they set at $3500?  Already everything in 5D3 is better than D800 except the sensor.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: weixing on September 13, 2012, 02:37:48 AM
Hi,
- 22MP vs 24MP
- 19 AF vs 39 AF
- 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
- non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync

Based on the spec the price of 6D should be very close to D600.  However, you know recently Canon's price is not good.  Thus, I would guess the price of 6D will be about 2500.
    Nikon D600 only had 9 out of the 39 AF points are cross type, so if the rumor Canon 6D get the 7D AF, 19AF point will be all cross type. IMHO, 10 more cross AF point had more significant advantage over the 2MP and 1FPS disadvantage... so the question is the price.  ::)

   Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 02:50:11 AM
I think it's not only the price.  Upgraders from APS-C will find Nikon offering much easier to take.  Imagine if you're invested in DX (AF-S) glasses.  You can still take D600 and little by little upgrade your lenses.  It's besides the fact that it's offering it at almost the same price of 5D2.  Wow!
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: JohanCruyff on September 13, 2012, 03:16:06 AM
Hi,
- 22MP vs 24MP
- 19 AF vs 39 AF
- 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
- non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync

Based on the spec the price of 6D should be very close to D600.  However, you know recently Canon's price is not good.  Thus, I would guess the price of 6D will be about 2500.
    Nikon D600 only had 9 out of the 39 AF points are cross type, so if the rumor Canon 6D get the 7D AF, 19AF point will be all cross type. IMHO, 10 more cross AF point had more significant advantage over the 2MP and 1FPS disadvantage... so the question is the price.  ::)

   Have a nice day.

How many Canon users (or expert photographers) would give up the (chanche to use the) precious Canon White (or black) Lenses for a few hundred dollars / euros?
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: hyles on September 13, 2012, 03:20:56 AM
I think it's not only the price.  Upgraders from APS-C will find Nikon offering much easier to take.  Imagine if you're invested in DX (AF-S) glasses.  You can still take D600 and little by little upgrade your lenses.  It's besides the fact that it's offering it at almost the same price of 5D2.  Wow!
I can't se why buying FF to use it in crop mode, it is something I have never understood. Sometimes it can be useful cropping an image, but if i had to spend 2200 to buy d600 and using allways in crop mode, i would go for d7000 and some good glass.
Diego
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: aznable on September 13, 2012, 03:34:11 AM
- 22MP vs 24MP
- 19 AF vs 39 AF
- 4.9 FPS vs 5.6 FPS
- non Flash Sync vs Flash Sync

Based on the spec the price of 6D should be very close to D600.  However, you know recently Canon's price is not good.  Thus, I would guess the price of 6D will be about 2500.

the price would have to be 1500usd or so?...2100 usd  ;)
the autofocus system has just 9 cross type sensor :-\
it lacks microfocus adjustment and has usb 2.0 interface (stupid thing)

the 6D is going to cost the same, if not less

Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: torger on September 13, 2012, 03:39:17 AM
A major part of the manufacturing cost is the sensor, large sensors are exponentially more expensive than smaller ones. With today's sensor manufacturing technology a full-frame camera cannot approach the price of an APS-C camera.

I've heard somewhere that 60% of an entry level full-frame camera manufacturing cost is the sensor, and for these even lower cost cameras it's probably more.

Bottom line -- if you want cheap don't go full-frame.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: weixing on September 13, 2012, 03:40:21 AM
Hi,
I think it's not only the price.  Upgraders from APS-C will find Nikon offering much easier to take.  Imagine if you're invested in DX (AF-S) glasses.  You can still take D600 and little by little upgrade your lenses.  It's besides the fact that it's offering it at almost the same price of 5D2.  Wow!
   I just wonder how many people will actually use the crop mode over a long period of time? For example, a user who own a D3200 with quite a number of DX lens decided to upgrade to D600 while he'll slowly upgrade to FX lens... then suddenly realized in DX mode, he only had 10MP on D600 while his old D3200 had 24MP... hmm... I'm not sure about others, but for me, I'll not be very happy during the transition time. If I'm a Nikon user ready to upgrade to a FF DSLR, I'll first upgrade all my len to FX lens before getting a FF DSLR.

  So, for me, a FF DSLR offering a crop mode is not attractive at all, unless when using crop mode, the FF DSLR can achieve a much higher frame rate then that's another story.

  Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Bennymiata on September 13, 2012, 03:42:15 AM
I wonder if it will have the same green-screen display and the focus point problems as the D800?

This new D600 still doesn't sway me enough to trade out of my 5D3.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 03:56:02 AM
Hi,
I think it's not only the price.  Upgraders from APS-C will find Nikon offering much easier to take.  Imagine if you're invested in DX (AF-S) glasses.  You can still take D600 and little by little upgrade your lenses.  It's besides the fact that it's offering it at almost the same price of 5D2.  Wow!
   I just wonder how many people will actually use the crop mode over a long period of time? For example, a user who own a D3200 with quite a number of DX lens decided to upgrade to D600 while he'll slowly upgrade to FX lens... then suddenly realized in DX mode, he only had 10MP on D600 while his old D3200 had 24MP... hmm... I'm not sure about others, but for me, I'll not be very happy during the transition time. If I'm a Nikon user ready to upgrade to a FF DSLR, I'll first upgrade all my len to FX lens before getting a FF DSLR.

  So, for me, a FF DSLR offering a crop mode is not attractive at all, unless when using crop mode, the FF DSLR can achieve a much higher frame rate then that's another story.

  Have a nice day.

Not many of course but still the path remains for APS-C upgraders.  Not everybody takes the path that we are taking (lens first before body).  But at least the choice is still there.  I'm also not saying it's an important feature, but at least Nikon cares for those upgraders.

Also the extra reach albeit reduced IQ for DX mode is important for some (bird and action photogs).  I know, it can be achieved in post-processing but still the reduced post-processing time is a welcome one. 
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Tayvin on September 13, 2012, 04:21:48 AM
Does anyone know who made the sensor for this camera?  I hope it's Sony.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 04:32:09 AM
Does anyone know who made the sensor for this camera?  I hope it's Sony.

I think DPREVIEW reports it's Sony but manufactured to Nikon's requirements.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: marinien on September 13, 2012, 04:39:36 AM
No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Marsu42 on September 13, 2012, 05:00:51 AM
Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.

I'm quite sure you're wrong here - their production costs have nothing to do with it, I doubt they can even figure them out considering the r&d involved that has to be returned, too. The price is simply as high as they can get away with it w/o loosing too much market share, and whey the early adopters got the products they'll lower the price according to demand (that might be official or vendor rebates, too).

But with 4 Nik bodies already on hand I can certainly wait to see what Canon's response will be and how each of these new "budget" FF bodies perform on the test charts.

My 2 cents: $2000+ certainly isn't "budget", for this price I expect a quality product even though of course they won't cannibalize the 5d3.

No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.+

Well, 1/4000s certainly is enough for 99% of my shots. The 5d series only has 1/200, too - doesn't matter much because of hss though. But no afma is rather impertinent on a camera with this price tag, I guess it's cut to prevent people buying 3rd party lenses that often need adjustment.

This new D600 still doesn't sway me enough to trade out of my 5D3.
you are not the brightest bulb around if you even considered that.

The real question is: What would you buy  for the same price - a 6d with a new 24-70 mk2 or a 5d3 with a Tamron 24-70? Yeah, right. But this is just theory because the 5d3 will freefall once enough quantities of the 6d are on the market and it isn't too crippled.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: And-Rew on September 13, 2012, 05:12:19 AM
I find the specs for this camera impressive, and the price - both of which should cause Canon some concerns.

To me, this very much takes the mantle away from the 5D2 - and certainly puts pressure on the 5D3.

Yes, I know the 5D2 is 4 years old etc - but even now it is still the benchmark that is used to judge the current releases by.

The price of this camera is slightly less than where the 5D3 should be - which would then have left it killing the competition dead in the water - but instead, Canon have opted to scare off a lot of potential customers and fans by creating these ridiculous prices for their newer kit. Technology prices are supposed to get cheaper - but not in Canon's case, it is most definitely bucking a very long trend without any supporting evidence except greed!

How will Canon respond? Probably with another own goal!  ???
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Basti187 on September 13, 2012, 06:38:57 AM
so the cheapest d600 i can find for the UK is £1800($2900)  which is £300 less than for the 5dm3, that's not exactly the "cheap entry FF" price tbh, I know it'll drop but I would have considered switching to nikon at a cheaper price!
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: traveller on September 13, 2012, 06:42:53 AM
If Canon wants to respond with a hypothetical "6D", they don't have as much room to manoeuvre as Nikon.  From what I gather, the full frame sensor is certainly a major component of the cost of producing these cameras; so Canon doesn't have a lot of opportunity to undercut the D600, even if they wanted to.  They would certainly struggle to match the D600's specifications, because that would make the "6D" too similar to the 5D MkIII.  I'm afraid that I have to agree with some of the previous posters on this thread: we'll see a situation very similar to the 60D vs. D7000, where Canon simply introduces a lower specified competitior for the same (or more) money...
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Marsu42 on September 13, 2012, 06:46:12 AM
Technology prices are supposed to get cheaper - but not in Canon's case, it is most definitely bucking a very long trend without any supporting evidence except greed!

Economists tell us there's nothing wrong with greed.

But concerning tech advance, if everything would keep getting cheaper a tech company would be selling everything for $100 in some time. Instead they re-invest the money saved from tech advance into better products - and the 5d3 would have been if it'd have had the price of the 5d2 on release.

so the cheapest d600 i can find for the UK is £1800($2900)  which is £300 less than for the 5dm3

All now products have an early adopter's premium on it, the d600 will drop a couple of hundred whatever after a few month and you'll get better prices from competitive dealers once enough d600 are on the shelves.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: pakosouthpark on September 13, 2012, 06:56:37 AM
if canon could surprise us with better specs and same price.. but it won't. let's see what they come up with..
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: dstppy on September 13, 2012, 07:02:25 AM
Okay, so where's that "it's gonna be $1500, canon's gonna poop their pants" guy now?

So, we've got a camera that's $300 more than and basically a 'single step up' from the 4 year old canon.  I'll pass.

Seriously, 6D could simply be what was posted: 7D AF, digic V+ FF and sell for $2500 without issue. 

Boy, I'm glad we were prepared with thread-upon-thread about how this camera was going to put Canon out of business  ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Musouka on September 13, 2012, 07:05:53 AM
I wonder if there are any sales tracking services or stats for interchangeable lens cameras. It would be quite interesting how Canon, and others, are doing with their current lineups.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: CharlieB on September 13, 2012, 07:12:43 AM
A major part of the manufacturing cost is the sensor, large sensors are exponentially more expensive than smaller ones. With today's sensor manufacturing technology a full-frame camera cannot approach the price of an APS-C camera.

Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics.  The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.

The price in the market, even as "suggested" by the manufacturer is always based on feedback from the market - thats you and me.  The lifecycle of a product is not from the ground up, but from the final concept down.  Marketing at a company decides it needs a product with feature set "X" at price point "Y" to compete.  This is all based on marketing research, focus groups, informed decisions, and gut level feelings of the marketing department.  At that point, they go to manufacturing and say "build us this....(whatever)".  There may be some back and forth, especially when new technology will need to be brought in.  The back and forth is more or less to determine the scale of the expected propduct - its product life, the number of units, how they can also use technology in other products... that sort of thing.  At the end of the day - manufacturing's job is to build marketing's product, and do it at the lowest possible price, so that they make the most money.  In a company the size of Canon, manufacturing is a seperate company within a company, with their own bottom line.  They sell to marketing, which in turn has its own bottom line... but... always.... the actual "cost" to make anything, has no effect on its sale price.  The price is always determined by market conditions.  Always.

(the above is the condensed version, proto Readers Digest etc etc)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Marsu42 on September 13, 2012, 07:15:32 AM
if canon could surprise us with better specs and same price.. but it won't. let's see what they come up with..

It's really not about the core specs but about the complete set including firmware features and handling - but only a real review will tell us in a couple of month when the real hardware is here (if ever).
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: weixing on September 13, 2012, 07:39:37 AM
A major part of the manufacturing cost is the sensor, large sensors are exponentially more expensive than smaller ones. With today's sensor manufacturing technology a full-frame camera cannot approach the price of an APS-C camera.

Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics.  The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.

The price in the market, even as "suggested" by the manufacturer is always based on feedback from the market - thats you and me.  The lifecycle of a product is not from the ground up, but from the final concept down.  Marketing at a company decides it needs a product with feature set "X" at price point "Y" to compete.  This is all based on marketing research, focus groups, informed decisions, and gut level feelings of the marketing department.  At that point, they go to manufacturing and say "build us this....(whatever)".  There may be some back and forth, especially when new technology will need to be brought in.  The back and forth is more or less to determine the scale of the expected propduct - its product life, the number of units, how they can also use technology in other products... that sort of thing.  At the end of the day - manufacturing's job is to build marketing's product, and do it at the lowest possible price, so that they make the most money.  In a company the size of Canon, manufacturing is a seperate company within a company, with their own bottom line.  They sell to marketing, which in turn has its own bottom line... but... always.... the actual "cost" to make anything, has no effect on its sale price.  The price is always determined by market conditions.  Always.

(the above is the condensed version, proto Readers Digest etc etc)
   But must at least higher than the manufacturing cost, right?? Unless they just want to get the market share :P

   Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: SwampYankee on September 13, 2012, 07:56:05 AM
I wonder if it will have the same green-screen display and the focus point problems as the D800?

This new D600 still doesn't sway me enough to trade out of my 5D3.
but how about a 7D who's original price point wasn't too far off this?  They have a D800 to match the 5D3
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: lola on September 13, 2012, 07:59:20 AM
Okay, so where's that "it's gonna be $1500, canon's gonna poop their pants" guy now?

So, we've got a camera that's $300 more than and basically a 'single step up' from the 4 year old canon.  I'll pass.

Seriously, 6D could simply be what was posted: 7D AF, digic V+ FF and sell for $2500 without issue. 

Boy, I'm glad we were prepared with thread-upon-thread about how this camera was going to put Canon out of business  ::)

As long as there are people who think a 4 year old 5D Mark II is just as good as a brand new D600, Canon has NOTHING to worry about...
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Britman on September 13, 2012, 08:02:11 AM
You have to also consider that Canon might not even enter this game. They have to compete against the Sony A99 and the D600 and without taking from the 5D3, so they might just decide not to bother.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Marsu42 on September 13, 2012, 08:04:40 AM
Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics.  The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.

+1 ... another factor they'll have in mind is the devaluation of the products and what premium customers will pay to get a product that doesn't drop in price too fast (ff camera bodies) or not at all (L lenses). That's why I'd even consider buying the new 24-70ii - unless it's stolen or I manage to trash it, unlike Tamron I'd expect to be able to sell the Canon lens later on if I find I don't need it anymore.

As long as there are people who think a 4 year old 5D Mark II is just as good as a brand new D600, Canon has NOTHING to worry about...

But they do, actually their worry is that the 5d2 is just too good to make an easy profit with a "real" successor 6d - either it'll be too expensive to people will still get a 5d3 or 5d2 as long as possible, or it'll be too inexpensive cutting profits.

Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: dstppy on September 13, 2012, 08:44:10 AM
As long as there are people who think a 4 year old 5D Mark II is just as good as a brand new D600, Canon has NOTHING to worry about...

But they do, actually their worry is that the 5d2 is just too good to make an easy profit with a "real" successor 6d - either it'll be too expensive to people will still get a 5d3 or 5d2 as long as possible, or it'll be too inexpensive cutting profits.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic . . . implying that those that look at actual images and performance are mindless automatons, unlike people that buy the newest thing with 3 more pixels :)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: jdavidse on September 13, 2012, 08:44:52 AM
Haha!  This is the justification I use every time I buy a new lens  :D

Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics.  The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.

+1 ... another factor they'll have in mind is the devaluation of the products and what premium customers will pay to get a product that doesn't drop in price too fast (ff camera bodies) or not at all (L lenses). That's why I'd even consider buying the new 24-70ii - unless it's stolen or I manage to trash it, unlike Tamron I'd expect to be able to sell the Canon lens later on if I find I don't need it anymore.

As long as there are people who think a 4 year old 5D Mark II is just as good as a brand new D600, Canon has NOTHING to worry about...

But they do, actually their worry is that the 5d2 is just too good to make an easy profit with a "real" successor 6d - either it'll be too expensive to people will still get a 5d3 or 5d2 as long as possible, or it'll be too inexpensive cutting profits.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Marsu42 on September 13, 2012, 08:48:20 AM
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic . . . implying that those that look at actual images and performance are mindless automatons, unlike people that buy the newest thing with 3 more pixels :)

Wups, hard to figure out for me sometimes what people say w/o smilies if opinions are so contradictory as about d800/5d3/...
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 08:51:37 AM
I hope they'll sell 5D2 @ around $1K or $1.3K. :D  I'll take it without thinking.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on September 13, 2012, 09:07:15 AM
But must at least higher than the manufacturing cost, right?? Unless they just want to get the market share :P

On low end equipment, sure. On high end equipment, for which the customer is expected to buy some accessories (batteries, grip, flash, big white lens, etc), Canon can lose money on the camera and cover it from the profits on the accessories.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: shannon76 on September 13, 2012, 09:11:00 AM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 09:13:31 AM
if canon could surprise us with better specs and same price.. but it won't. let's see what they come up with..

It's really not about the core specs but about the complete set including firmware features and handling - but only a real review will tell us in a couple of month when the real hardware is here (if ever).

It will be a surprise if Canon will churn out a sensor better than the one in 5D3 and 1DX for 6D.  I'm expecting 6D's sensor to be below of that D600.  I'm crossing my fingers that they do exceed expectations though.  I really want to upgrade already to FF after I acquire my 17-40L.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 09:17:04 AM
A major part of the manufacturing cost is the sensor, large sensors are exponentially more expensive than smaller ones. With today's sensor manufacturing technology a full-frame camera cannot approach the price of an APS-C camera.

Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics.  The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.

The price in the market, even as "suggested" by the manufacturer is always based on feedback from the market - thats you and me.  The lifecycle of a product is not from the ground up, but from the final concept down.  Marketing at a company decides it needs a product with feature set "X" at price point "Y" to compete.  This is all based on marketing research, focus groups, informed decisions, and gut level feelings of the marketing department.  At that point, they go to manufacturing and say "build us this....(whatever)".  There may be some back and forth, especially when new technology will need to be brought in.  The back and forth is more or less to determine the scale of the expected propduct - its product life, the number of units, how they can also use technology in other products... that sort of thing.  At the end of the day - manufacturing's job is to build marketing's product, and do it at the lowest possible price, so that they make the most money.  In a company the size of Canon, manufacturing is a seperate company within a company, with their own bottom line.  They sell to marketing, which in turn has its own bottom line... but... always.... the actual "cost" to make anything, has no effect on its sale price.  The price is always determined by market conditions.  Always.

(the above is the condensed version, proto Readers Digest etc etc)
   But must at least higher than the manufacturing cost, right?? Unless they just want to get the market share :P
   Have a nice day.
No, actually.  Pricing is based on many things, one of which is the cost of manufacturing.  Consider video game consoles: they always launch at a price point less than the manufacturing cost in order to reap profits from software licensing.

Have a nice day.

It will also depend on how much they want to "protect" their market share.  After all, a customer lost is almost lost forever once he invests on a lens and body.  It's very hard to switch to another system due to the cost.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: willis on September 13, 2012, 09:24:32 AM
Well nothing mind blowing specs on D600 ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 09:28:34 AM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 09:29:54 AM
Well nothing mind blowing specs on D600 ::)

what? it's an eye-opener.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: dstppy on September 13, 2012, 09:41:48 AM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

citation required . . .
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 09:45:43 AM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

citation required . . .

No need.  Sensor is same with 550D unless you dispute it.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 13, 2012, 09:46:45 AM
   But must at least higher than the manufacturing cost, right??

Amazon Kindle Fire - retail price $199, unit production cost $202 and they ship it to you for free.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 13, 2012, 09:53:28 AM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

citation required . . .

No need.  Sensor is same with 550D unless you dispute it.

Yes, the 7D, 60D, T2i/550D, and T3i/600D use the same sensor.  The 650D adds on-sensor phase detect AF.  You're saying the 650D has better IQ than the 550D/600D/7D...and if you're making that claim, you need to back it up, because from the testing that I've seen, there's no meaningful difference in IQ.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 09:57:03 AM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

citation required . . .

No need.  Sensor is same with 550D unless you dispute it.

Yes, the 7D, 60D, T2i/550D, and T3i/600D use the same sensor.  The 650D adds on-sensor phase detect AF.  You're saying the 650D has better IQ than the 550D/600D/7D...and if you're making that claim, you need to back it up, because from the testing that I've seen, there's no meaningful difference in IQ.

That's the exact word... no meaningful difference.  Sorry I've made a mistake of comparing 7D to an almost 50% cheaper new rebel. :)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: unfocused on September 13, 2012, 09:59:20 AM
Okay, so where's that "it's gonna be $1500, canon's gonna poop their pants" guy now?... Boy, I'm glad we were prepared with thread-upon-thread about how this camera was going to put Canon out of business  ::)

They are all busy preparing their "Canon's-charging-$2100-for-a-camera-that-has-two-less-megapixels-and-only-19-autofocus-points-and-doesn't-even-have-a-pop-up-flash-I'm-gonna-sell-my-40D-and-switch-to-Nikon" rants.

I hope they'll sell 5D2 @ around $1K or $1.3K. :D  I'll take it without thinking.

That version will by delivered by Bigfoot riding a Unicorn. 
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: kennephoto on September 13, 2012, 09:59:38 AM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

+1 pretty sure 7d is a way different camera than 650d!

citation required . . .

No need.  Sensor is same with 550D unless you dispute it.

Yes, the 7D, 60D, T2i/550D, and T3i/600D use the same sensor.  The 650D adds on-sensor phase detect AF.  You're saying the 650D has better IQ than the 550D/600D/7D...and if you're making that claim, you need to back it up, because from the testing that I've seen, there's no meaningful difference in IQ.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Fishnose on September 13, 2012, 10:00:40 AM
D600 is not only for people coming up form DX - it's also a great 2nd body for pros.
The sensor is every bit as good as the D3x, and with a small body this is SO useful to stick in the bag as a backup or hang it round you neck with a wide angle when you're running around shooting.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 10:01:51 AM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

+1 pretty sure 7d is a way different camera than 650d!

citation required . . .

No need.  Sensor is same with 550D unless you dispute it.

Yes, the 7D, 60D, T2i/550D, and T3i/600D use the same sensor.  The 650D adds on-sensor phase detect AF.  You're saying the 650D has better IQ than the 550D/600D/7D...and if you're making that claim, you need to back it up, because from the testing that I've seen, there's no meaningful difference in IQ.

he said it all.  right? :)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: preppyak on September 13, 2012, 10:02:10 AM
Amazon Kindle Fire - retail price $199, unit production cost $202 and they ship it to you for free.
Yeah, although I believe one of the unique elements of that that camera manufacturers can't take advantage of is putting ads on your screen. But, lenses are very much like apps, so otherwise it makes sense.

I find it interesting that the D600 released at basically the same price point as the 5dII is at now, retail wise. Makes me wonder if they can really go much lower in terms of retail price than the $2000 mark.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: RLPhoto on September 13, 2012, 10:03:01 AM
Nikon has poked the sleeping beast and it has awaken.

It will soon unleash it's fury.

Nikons reaction will look similar to this.

O_O
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 13, 2012, 10:06:41 AM
Yes, the 7D, 60D, T2i/550D, and T3i/600D use the same sensor.  The 650D adds on-sensor phase detect AF.  You're saying the 650D has better IQ than the 550D/600D/7D...and if you're making that claim, you need to back it up, because from the testing that I've seen, there's no meaningful difference in IQ.

That's the exact word... no meaningful difference.  Sorry I've made a mistake of comparing 7D to an almost 50% cheaper new rebel. :)

No, you said, "Even 650D is better."  Not 'no meaningful difference'...better.  Now that you can't back your claim up with evidence, there's no difference.    ::)

As for the 650D being half the cost of the 7D, with no better IQ, so what?  No one is claiming the 7D delivers better IQ, that's not what it's about.  The 1DsIII launched at over three times the cost of the 5DII, with no meaningful IQ difference.  The 7D offers a whole host of improvements over the 650D in areas that are critically important to some people, and irrelevant to others.  If you're one of those who derives no benefit from the better features of the 7D, stick with your 500D and be happy. 
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: V8Beast on September 13, 2012, 10:12:43 AM
I thought it was going to be $1,500. What gives? Now all the Canon boys have to whine about are DR instead of DR and price ;D
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Rodknee on September 13, 2012, 10:20:13 AM
Looking at the specs and starting price (which could drop in a few months) it could be popular with Videographers
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Meh on September 13, 2012, 10:35:35 AM
Yawn.  It's all about the lenses.   Canon rocks!
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: K-amps on September 13, 2012, 10:49:06 AM
Canon doesn't just set their prices based on the (supposed) superiority of a competitor's product. They set prices based on their own production costs.

I'm quite sure you're wrong here - their production costs have nothing to do with it, I doubt they can even figure them out considering the r&d involved that has to be returned, too. The price is simply as high as they can get away with it w/o loosing too much market share, and whey the early adopters got the products they'll lower the price according to demand (that might be official or vendor rebates, too).

+1 exactly what I would have said.  If costs were based on production only then Canon would:

1) Either have to re-tool their lines
2) Go out of Business

if competitor production costs are 20-30% less...

At the end of the day, Canon will Milk their customers because they have good glass... people are bought into a system. The 5d3 was overpriced for this reason, and they got away with it... but many people are peed off that a similar costing body, costs 500-700 less. Had the 5d3 have similar DR and low ISO noise performance as the D800, it would have been a different story. Sensor cost for FF is higher than APS-C yes, but it is no where near what people are led to believe.... it is no where near the 60% of total cost that some people claim...

The 5d2 also has an FF sensor and sells in the $1700 refurb market... don't tell me 60% of the cost of the 5d3 is the 7 year old technology sensor used in the 5d2.

Nikon can buy sensors form Sony (who make a profit) stick them in their bodies and sell them for less than Canon, if anything, Nikon bodies should cost more... and we have fanboys telling us how high productions costs are... please.

Nikon has done well by properly pricing their bodies... helps us Canon guys in the long run.

Now Nikon... please make a Body that can take EF lens's and you will really do us a favor by making Canon sending their engineers to work on better sensor tech and not waste time on making new $$$ Cine bodies everytime we look around. 

PS: This is my last post as a 1D Mark IV... I will try and be nicer in my first post as a 1D X  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: distant.star on September 13, 2012, 10:50:21 AM
.
I've read some whoppers on this forum, but this is worthy of a "Looniest Ever" award nomination. This is worthy of the advanced economic thinking that created the worldwide banking/financial crisis.

Apparently Henry Ford was right when he said, "Everything is possible." Not "anything," but "everything."

Congratulations on taking us to a new realm.

It must be working. Last Sunday I was walking about, taking pictures as I am wont to do. I came across two little girls on the side of the road with a lemonade stand. They also had available water and candy and a few other sundries; they had learned to diversify. They told me they were trying to "earn enough money to buy french fries." True story.

So, their "manufacturing costs" meant nothing once they had enough cash on hand to head for the Burger King.

You'll have to excuse me now as I'm headed to the bank. I want to apply for a loan so I can start a business making cameras. I want to set up the most best and most expensive manufacturing facility I can imagine -- put a lot of people to work along the way, and then sell the cameras for less than they cost to produce. A sure winning plan, and the bank will surely want to be my partner.

Have a mad hatter day, everyone.


Just a little lesson in manufacturing economics.  The cost of manufacturing has nothing - repeat - nothing to do with the price that any product sells for in the marketplace.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: pakosouthpark on September 13, 2012, 11:08:54 AM
yeah this camera will drop down price for xmas! maybe a 200 dollars drop. hope the uk follows as the price here is just fekin ridiculous!! and canon will do the same if they release it (6D) before december.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: peederj on September 13, 2012, 11:09:29 AM
Looking at the specs and starting price (which could drop in a few months) it could be popular with Videographers

Nah, the DSLR days for video are wrapping up. The GH3 will probably be the last relevant video DSLR. People are moving up to cameras that are designed for cinema use...Sony just put out a full frame VG900 with an E mount that you can use the Metabones adapter to host your EF glass on, and Canon's C100 with the addition of an external recorder is going to get you terrific output with no excessive rigging needs. The Nikons are still stuck in the line-skipping days so having clean HDMI out doesn't help terribly much, and the low light performance isn't so great either for video.

Commenting further above, the 650D sensor actually tests out a little worse than the 600D/60D/7D/550D. Canon would do better working off the 1DX sensor I think rather than the 5D3 sensor...the 1DX has better video resolution due to better in-camera processing. But they will probably build off the 5D3 sensor as it may be cheaper for them to make.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: RC on September 13, 2012, 11:13:44 AM
Lots of interesting comments and points of view.  I love competition, we consumers win.  Now hopefully Canon will offer a successful answer to Nikon.

Personally I'm not concerned about the lowest price or even a "low" price.  Just give us a good solid FF body option with the essential specs that is priced appropriately.    Must have AFMA, 7D/5D form factor/button layout, and good build (and of course it must have the essentials).

I don't like this notion "entry level FF" that is being tossed around on CR.  Entry cameras are lower end Rebels.   There is plenty of room for another xD FF body IMO but with reduced features.   Lots of folks who don't want to (or can't) fork out $3,500 for the 5D3.  And I'm sure lots of folks who would love a second FF body but with less bells and whistles than the 5D3.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 11:14:41 AM
Yes, the 7D, 60D, T2i/550D, and T3i/600D use the same sensor.  The 650D adds on-sensor phase detect AF.  You're saying the 650D has better IQ than the 550D/600D/7D...and if you're making that claim, you need to back it up, because from the testing that I've seen, there's no meaningful difference in IQ.

That's the exact word... no meaningful difference.  Sorry I've made a mistake of comparing 7D to an almost 50% cheaper new rebel. :)

No, you said, "Even 650D is better."  Not 'no meaningful difference'...better.  Now that you can't back your claim up with evidence, there's no difference.    ::)

As for the 650D being half the cost of the 7D, with no better IQ, so what?  No one is claiming the 7D delivers better IQ, that's not what it's about.  The 1DsIII launched at over three times the cost of the 5DII, with no meaningful IQ difference.  The 7D offers a whole host of improvements over the 650D in areas that are critically important to some people, and irrelevant to others.  If you're one of those who derives no benefit from the better features of the 7D, stick with your 500D and be happy.

Here it is:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-t4i/canon-t4iA5.HTM (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-t4i/canon-t4iA5.HTM)

Sorry it took sometime because 650D apparently is a little bit new.  I know the difference isn't that much, but there it is.

Yup.  You're right.   I'm not going the 7D way.  I'm leaning more on landscape photography and portraiture so DR is more important to me.  I'm happy with my 500D but I'm thinking of going for an FF instead of a crop.  What I'm trying to say is that it used to be that 7D speed, AF and weather seal are enough to justify its cost for me but now with the newer 650D it almost isn't the case anymore or shall we say it's already due for replacement.  Sure for sports or bird photographers like you, 7D might still be a better alternative or 2nd body but not for me or everyone else involved in other types of photography.  To add, money is also an object for somebody like me but not to professionals like you so my opinion on this matter.  Anyway, thanks for the advise on being happy with my 500D.  It makes sense.  :)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: marshall on September 13, 2012, 11:31:31 AM
This is genius by Mr. Nikon. Let me explain myself:

This move by Nikon is not about a body, but about the whole ecosystem. When you buy a camera, being a P&S, a mirrorless, a DSLR, etc, what the company is getting is the potential to upsell you with accessories, lenses, better bodies, and in Canon's case, mice and calculators.

The ultimate business goal for Canon (or Nikon) is for you to buy all of that from them. Thus they offer a coherent progression: from P&S to Rebels to higher end crops to FF.  There are two weak links in the chain. The first is the transition from P&S to a low end DSLR as you are not really invested on a system yet. However, even at that level there are elements to steer your purchase to the ecosystem: similar-looking user interfaces, similar design language, brand recognition, etc. The second weak point is the transition from crop to FF. Here you are already in the ecosystem, but for most the transition probably involves buying some new -expensive lenses-.

In the past few years, mirrorless punched a hole in the first transition. Canon (and Nikon) now had to deal with a third option for people ready to move up form a P&S. The main effect of the mirrorless was not really as much as lost revenue due to lesser sales of Rebels, but lost revenue due to the people they failed to get into the ecosystem. Every person who does not buy a Rebel, will not buy flashes, expensive lenses, and probably won't buy your calculators either. Nikon respoded with the Nikon 1 system. Canon responded recently as well, but with an option that seems overpriced at the moment give what brings to the table. In any case, both Canon and Nikon are acting to plug that hole.

Now back to the D600. This camera is aimed squarely at the second transition. This is Nikon telling folks stuck in the Rebel/60D/7D world because of the high cost of entry into Canon FF, "hey fellows, you want s significant increase in IQ for a cost that is reasonable to you (otherwise you would already gotten a 5DIII)?... here have the D600". This is FF for people who is already invested in photography (enough to spend two grand on a body) but for which 3 grand for an MKIII is beyond of what they want to spend. This people almost by definition is bound to buy accessories, lenses, and even perhaps, at some point move up in the ecosystem and get more expensive bodies. Nikon is taking the market that Canon built via very good, inexpensive rebels, and moving them to their ecosystem. Genius.

In my mind there is also a psychological component to the move: Canon has been hitting us with substantial price increases with every new product. Nikon am sure is playing that card: "look, we care about amateurs that were priced out of the upgrade path by Canon. Hence, you should assume we are nicer fellows to deal with". Some may even think Nikon lenses will be cheaper (not the case AFAIK).

My point with this long rant is that the D600 is a game changer, not from a features standpoint but from a business angle. It should not to be evaluated against the 5DIII (or even the 5DII, which for most people updating from more "modern" crops feels stale and outdated... after all Canon trained us to expect a new Rebel every year and a new XXD every two or so. Two grand for a 5y/o piece of electronics that has already been replaced... yeah right). The D600 should be evaluated against the 7D for those upgrading from Rebels or 60D and has no real competition for those upgrading from a 7D. Granted, the 7D is a spectacular camera beyond IQ (amazing AF, great speed, etc.). But for many, those features are nice to have but are secondary to a better IQ. If the D600 delivers on what it promises, Canon will have to respond the same way it responded to the mirrorless sucking -a perhaps significant- portion of the stream of early-stage upgraders because otherwise they will suffer a significant bleeding at the FF transition.

I, personally, will give Canon about a year to release a budget FF because am invested in the system. I don't need an FF that can track a fly flying towards me, a frame rate fast enough to capture a balloon exploding, or weather sealing tight enough I can take the camera diving. I do want better AF than a Rebel/60D (the 7D AF would do), AFMA, 5 FPS would be plenty, and a significant improvement in IQ over what any of those cameras can deliver. Better noise control at higher ISO levels (at least clean images @ 3200... please?) would be greatly appreciated. I will gladly pay two grand for such camera and promise to eventually buy a 24-70 MKII and whatever will replace the 430EXII. If you come up with a ring-based 100-400 (under 2K of course) I may get that as well. If you release this soon I promise I will even buy the calculator.

Deal Canon?
 
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 13, 2012, 11:33:46 AM
I know the difference isn't that much, but there it is.

Thanks for the link.  Clicking on the RAW Comparison subtab, scrolling down, Imaging Resource states, "As you can see, the Canon T4i performs very similar to the T3i, though detail in the red leaf cloth isn't quite as good (something we also saw in camera JPEGs)."  So, you were correct in that there is a slight difference...except the T4i/650D actually seems to be a little worse, not better, compared to the T3i (7D sensor).

What I'm trying to say is that it used to be that 7D speed, AF and weather seal are enough to justify its cost for me but now with the newer 650D it almost isn't the case anymore or shall we say it's already due for replacement.  Sure for sports or bird photographers like you, 7D might still be a better alternative or 2nd body but not for me or everyone else involved in other types of photography.  To add, money is also an object for somebody like me but not to professionals like you so my opinion on this matter.  Anyway, thanks for the advise on being happy with my 500D.  It makes sense. 

Well, the 7D is over three years old now.  But still, the IQ is equivalent to the 650D, the AF is substantially better, and the build is way better. 

One key thing for me, and a big part of the reason I upgraded from a T1i/500D to a 7D in the first place, is AF Microadjustment.  I shoot with fast primes, and the lack of AFMA can be a real problem in that case.  You either need to get lucky, be willing to buy and return multiple copies of a lens, or be willing to send lens(es) and body into Canon for adjustment.  Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA.  Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA.  If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: kennephoto on September 13, 2012, 11:46:49 AM
Does a cameras age really matter? Sure the 7d is 3-4 years old but I got cameras that are 10-20 times older that still take a good picture. But for me a canon 7d and a canon 5d2 is an awesome combo and I'm gonna trade up to those! And now theres a new iPhone to be preordered tomorrow!!!
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: DianeK on September 13, 2012, 11:52:32 AM
Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA.  Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA.  If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.

I don't think the D600 has AFMA which is what will keep me from buying it. And if Canon does not put that feature in it's rumored 6D, then I won't be buying it either.
Diane
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: DianeK on September 13, 2012, 11:54:45 AM
I, personally, will give Canon about a year to release a budget FF because am invested in the system. I don't need an FF that can track a fly flying towards me, a frame rate fast enough to capture a balloon exploding, or weather sealing tight enough I can take the camera diving. I do want better AF than a Rebel/60D (the 7D AF would do), AFMA, 5 FPS would be plenty, and a significant improvement in IQ over what any of those cameras can deliver. Better noise control at higher ISO levels (at least clean images @ 3200... please?) would be greatly appreciated. I will gladly pay two grand for such camera and promise to eventually buy a 24-70 MKII and whatever will replace the 430EXII.
Deal Canon?

Ditto!
Diane
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: marshall on September 13, 2012, 11:58:03 AM
Canon cannot remove AFMA from a FF body. Most people going to FF are well aware of the importance of AFMA and probably owns some primes for which they had to use (or wish they had!) AFMA.

When my 50D went to camera heave I immediately ordered a 60D. Didn't bother to read the reviews/specifications/etc... just assumed it would be as good if not better than my 50D. I probably spent two ours going over the manual trying to find where AFMA was... of course there was no AFMA (incidentally, looking on the internet for *how to set AFMA in the 60D* was how I discovered this site).

Lack of AFMA made my 50/1.4 into a manual focus lens only (or live view if your subject had the patience). I returned the camera and got a T3i instead (the 7D was too expensive at the time). With the difference I bought a EF-S 60 macro, lovely little lens.

I miss my 50D and been awaiting eagerly for a 70D with AFMA. Not sure it will happen. However, now that I have the FF bug for my studio stuff am considering the D600... If I just hadn't fall in love with the MP-E 65...

 
 
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: rosw on September 13, 2012, 11:58:37 AM
Hi

with D600 out (without Vari-Angle Clear View LCD, Sony A99 (limited turning LCD)
what are the odd / chances that the new Canon budget FF camera will have a turning LCD ??

any comments are welcome ...
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: dswatson83 on September 13, 2012, 12:00:23 PM
I, personally, will give Canon about a year to release a budget FF because am invested in the system. I don't need an FF that can track a fly flying towards me, a frame rate fast enough to capture a balloon exploding, or weather sealing tight enough I can take the camera diving. I do want better AF than a Rebel/60D (the 7D AF would do), AFMA, 5 FPS would be plenty, and a significant improvement in IQ over what any of those cameras can deliver. Better noise control at higher ISO levels (at least clean images @ 3200... please?) would be greatly appreciated. I will gladly pay two grand for such camera and promise to eventually buy a 24-70 MKII and whatever will replace the 430EXII.
Deal Canon?
Right on. I also want 2 SD slots rather than 1 which should be a given.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 13, 2012, 12:06:54 PM
Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA.  Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA.  If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.
I don't think the D600 has AFMA which is what will keep me from buying it.
Diane

I think you don't think so because you read DPR too much.   ::)  If that's the only thing stopping you...you should go ahead and order your D600.  It does have AFMA, just read the specs as listed by Nikon (http://www.nikonusa.com/Nikon-Products/Product/Digital-SLR-Cameras/25488/D600.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-TechSpecs). 
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: simonxu11 on September 13, 2012, 12:08:17 PM
Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA.  Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA.  If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.

I don't think the D600 has AFMA which is what will keep me from buying it. And if Canon does not put that feature in it's rumored 6D, then I won't be buying it either.
Diane
It does have AFMF or "Fine tuning" is called by Nikon

"Nikon Multi-CAM 4800 autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection, fine-tuning"
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: bbasiaga on September 13, 2012, 12:21:09 PM
Its funny the features that everyone considers 'necessary' or a body is 'DOA'.  There would have to be 1,000 versions of each model to make everyone happy.  :)  Or everyone would have to buy a 1Dx/Nikon Equivalent. 

A little lesson on how screwed up econonomics are:  someone said 'electronics are supposed to get cheaper...'  well, they do - but that doesn't mean the price has to go down.  Inflation is generally calculated on how much it costs to get what you paid for yester-year, in today's dollars.  Only, you can't get a new 1DII anymore, so they compare it to the next thing - say the 1DX.  Its more?  Yes, but it offers more features.  So they determine the relative value, and guess what, its only really 2% more, or in some cases its less.  Buy a car in 1990?  A nice Lexus for $20k?  That same one costs $40k now?  But wait...look at all those safety systems, bells, whistles, buzzers, and knick knaks the '90 model didn't have.  Lo and behold, the new one is actually the same price - from an inflationary/technological stanpoint.  That is how the calculation works.  Its how stuff is 50% more expensive now, but inflation has been 'very low' for a 'long time'.  Its also why food isn't included in inflationary costs.  Your potato today has no technological advantage over the one from 20yrs ago, but its still twice as expensive.  What would the world's governments have to do about that if that was part of inflation?

So companies think that way.  They don't want to provide better prices, they want to provide better value for the price.  And that can occur at a higher price point as long as the 'value' allows it to.  That is exactly what happened with the 5DIII.  It has a LOT more features than the II.  And therefore a lot more Value.  So it is 'fairly priced' in the eye of the seller.  Its up to us to validate the value calculation buy either buying or not buying the stuff.

-Brian
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: DianeK on September 13, 2012, 12:21:36 PM

It does have AFMF or "Fine tuning" is called by Nikon

"Nikon Multi-CAM 4800 autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection, fine-tuning"
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm)

I stand corrected, and gladly...this camera has now become more desirable to me as I am not that invested in Canon glass that I couldn't switch.
Diane
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: DianeK on September 13, 2012, 12:26:40 PM
I think you don't think so because you read DPR too much.   ::) 
Busted  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: hyles on September 13, 2012, 12:31:02 PM
I think it is nearly impossible to compare price of 5DIII and d800. beside the cost of producing the camera, there are many othere causes we don't even know about to bring up cost.
Least but not last, d800 has a newly developed sensor, with AF and meccanical part allready used in d3, d700, d3x, d4, . 5DIII is a completly new camera, with a new sensor, new AF, new body. This may be one of the reason of a higher price for the camera.
Diego
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: marinien on September 13, 2012, 12:45:52 PM
I think you don't think so because you read DPR too much.   ::) 
Busted  ;)

Thanks neuro! I was the first in this thread who talked about no AFMA with the D600  :-[
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: theqspeaks on September 13, 2012, 12:46:59 PM
I, personally, will give Canon about a year to release a budget FF because am invested in the system. I don't need an FF that can track a fly flying towards me, a frame rate fast enough to capture a balloon exploding, or weather sealing tight enough I can take the camera diving. I do want better AF than a Rebel/60D (the 7D AF would do), AFMA, 5 FPS would be plenty, and a significant improvement in IQ over what any of those cameras can deliver. Better noise control at higher ISO levels (at least clean images @ 3200... please?) would be greatly appreciated. I will gladly pay two grand for such camera and promise to eventually buy a 24-70 MKII and whatever will replace the 430EXII.
Deal Canon?

Ditto!
Diane

Ditto ditto!
Q
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Musouka on September 13, 2012, 12:48:00 PM
While it's talking about the iPhone 5, I think it somehow applies to Canon as well.

Quote
If you think the iPhone 5 is boring, I've got bad news for you. The iPhone 6 will be, too. And the iPhone 7, and every iPhone after that. Minor aesthetic variations on the same well-loved theme. They'll also, in all likelihood, be fantastic.

The only thing that will change the iPhone's design is a dramatic decline in iPhone market share, but that doesn't seem in the offing. Not any time soon, anyway. It takes years to slow down a juggernaut.

So get comfortable with your boring iPhone and your boring iPad and your boring MacBook Air. They're that way because they have to be. Because we want them to be. Because it's the only way that makes sense.

The Worst Thing About the iPhone 5 Is Also the Most Brilliant (http://gizmodo.com/5942977/the-worst-thing-about-the-iphone-5-is-also-the-most-brilliant)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: simonxu11 on September 13, 2012, 12:50:05 PM
I think it is nearly impossible to compare price of 5DIII and d800. beside the cost of producing the camera, there are many othere causes we don't even know about to bring up cost.
Least but not last, d800 has a newly developed sensor, with AF and meccanical part allready used in d3, d700, d3x, d4, . 5DIII is a completly new camera, with a new sensor, new AF, new body. This may be one of the reason of a higher price for the camera.
Diego
d800 has a new sensor, new body, updated af and metering used in d4, shutter life @20,0000
5d3 has a new sensor(maybe updated), new body, new af from 1dx, metering from 1100d, shutter life @15,0000
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: FunkyCamera on September 13, 2012, 12:52:45 PM
Half plastic, overpriced, usual Nikon poor image quality, very inaccurate autofocus... don't know why they even bothered. Pointless gimmick camera. Bit I guess they'll just bribe dxo to give it 10x the score it deserves again.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Zlatko on September 13, 2012, 12:59:47 PM
At the end of the day, Canon will Milk their customers because they have good glass... people are bought into a system. The 5d3 was overpriced for this reason, and they got away with it... but many people are peed off that a similar costing body, costs 500-700 less. Had the 5d3 have similar DR and low ISO noise performance as the D800, it would have been a different story.
You're quite mistaken. The 5D3 is a nearly perfect blend of pro camera (1DX, 1DsIII, 1DIV) and small camera (5D2, 7D) in performance, features and size.  There are a number of ways in which the 5D3 is perfectly suited to my work and the D800 isn't (quiet shutter mode, variable file sizes, high ISO performance, autofocus performance, radio-controlled flash system, etc.).  The D800 doesn't meet my needs as well.  I've heard the same sentiments from other pros — they felt that Canon had really listened to their needs with the 5D3 and Nikon really hadn't with the D800.  (Of course, a landscape photographer has different needs and may be happier with the D800).

Rather than "getting away with it [higher pricing]" or "milking" their customers, Canon have delivered exactly what some photographers need at the 5D3's price level.  This idea of deviously "milking" customers with "overpriced" gear is unfounded in an age when customers have very good alternatives and can switch brands without a big financial loss.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: K-amps on September 13, 2012, 01:16:11 PM
At the end of the day, Canon will Milk their customers because they have good glass... people are bought into a system. The 5d3 was overpriced for this reason, and they got away with it... but many people are peed off that a similar costing body, costs 500-700 less. Had the 5d3 have similar DR and low ISO noise performance as the D800, it would have been a different story.
You're quite mistaken. The 5D3 is a nearly perfect blend of pro camera (1DX, 1DsIII, 1DIV) and small camera (5D2, 7D) in performance, features and size.  There are a number of ways in which the 5D3 is perfectly suited to my work and the D800 isn't (quiet shutter mode, variable file sizes, high ISO performance, autofocus performance, radio-controlled flash system, etc.).  The D800 doesn't meet my needs as well.  I've heard the same sentiments from other pros — they felt that Canon had really listened to their needs with the 5D3 and Nikon really hadn't with the D800.  (Of course, a landscape photographer has different needs and may be happier with the D800).

Rather than "getting away with it [higher pricing]" or "milking" their customers, Canon have delivered exactly what some photographers need at the 5D3's price level.  This idea of deviously "milking" customers with "overpriced" gear is unfounded in an age when customers have very good alternatives and can switch brands without a big financial loss.

Looks like you are carrying a peeve from our disagreement on the 24-70 thread.  ;)

No one said that the 5D3 was not a good blend/ all round camera, I own one myself. But I still think they Milked me and you.   :P

Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: vlim on September 13, 2012, 01:18:02 PM
D600 = 1975€ in paris

We can already pre order it
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: EYEONE on September 13, 2012, 01:24:41 PM
At the end of the day, Canon will Milk their customers because they have good glass... people are bought into a system. The 5d3 was overpriced for this reason, and they got away with it... but many people are peed off that a similar costing body, costs 500-700 less. Had the 5d3 have similar DR and low ISO noise performance as the D800, it would have been a different story.
You're quite mistaken. The 5D3 is a nearly perfect blend of pro camera (1DX, 1DsIII, 1DIV) and small camera (5D2, 7D) in performance, features and size.  There are a number of ways in which the 5D3 is perfectly suited to my work and the D800 isn't (quiet shutter mode, variable file sizes, high ISO performance, autofocus performance, radio-controlled flash system, etc.).  The D800 doesn't meet my needs as well.  I've heard the same sentiments from other pros — they felt that Canon had really listened to their needs with the 5D3 and Nikon really hadn't with the D800.  (Of course, a landscape photographer has different needs and may be happier with the D800).

Rather than "getting away with it [higher pricing]" or "milking" their customers, Canon have delivered exactly what some photographers need at the 5D3's price level.  This idea of deviously "milking" customers with "overpriced" gear is unfounded in an age when customers have very good alternatives and can switch brands without a big financial loss.

Looks like you are carrying a peeve from our disagreement on the 24-70 thread.  ;)

No one said that the 5D3 was not a good blend/ all round camera, I own one myself. But I still think they Milked me and you.   :P

It's true. The 5D3 is amazing and priced too high. We should probably be more upset about it than we are.

I would have expected Nikon to to better than $2100. I think Canon could actually undercut Nikon here. Basically release a 5D2 with an expanded 7D AF system for $1,999, alone that would be enough.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: ashmadux on September 13, 2012, 01:27:13 PM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 13, 2012, 01:34:23 PM
Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.

The T2i and 7D use the same CMOS image sensor...but you're claiming the T2i has substantially better IQ?  That's like buying two bottles of Guinness Extra Stout from different liquor stores and claiming one tastes much better...I suppose it's possible - but if so, it's clearly subjective and most likely due to having smoked something first...
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: EYEONE on September 13, 2012, 01:35:22 PM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.

They have the exact same sensor. It's not really possible for them to have different IQ
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Helevitia on September 13, 2012, 01:37:44 PM
At the end of the day, Canon will Milk their customers because they have good glass... people are bought into a system. The 5d3 was overpriced for this reason, and they got away with it... but many people are peed off that a similar costing body, costs 500-700 less. Had the 5d3 have similar DR and low ISO noise performance as the D800, it would have been a different story.
You're quite mistaken. The 5D3 is a nearly perfect blend of pro camera (1DX, 1DsIII, 1DIV) and small camera (5D2, 7D) in performance, features and size.  There are a number of ways in which the 5D3 is perfectly suited to my work and the D800 isn't (quiet shutter mode, variable file sizes, high ISO performance, autofocus performance, radio-controlled flash system, etc.).  The D800 doesn't meet my needs as well.  I've heard the same sentiments from other pros — they felt that Canon had really listened to their needs with the 5D3 and Nikon really hadn't with the D800.  (Of course, a landscape photographer has different needs and may be happier with the D800).

Rather than "getting away with it [higher pricing]" or "milking" their customers, Canon have delivered exactly what some photographers need at the 5D3's price level.  This idea of deviously "milking" customers with "overpriced" gear is unfounded in an age when customers have very good alternatives and can switch brands without a big financial loss.

Looks like you are carrying a peeve from our disagreement on the 24-70 thread.  ;)

No one said that the 5D3 was not a good blend/ all round camera, I own one myself. But I still think they Milked me and you.   :P

It's true. The 5D3 is amazing and priced too high. We should probably be more upset about it than we are.

I would have expected Nikon to to better than $2100. I think Canon could actually undercut Nikon here. Basically release a 5D2 with an expanded 7D AF system for $1,999, alone that would be enough.

I would buy that if the sensor and ISO noise were on par with the MK2 or better.  I love my 7D minus the ISO noise.    Basically I want the D600 with a Canon label on it.  The 1/4000 is kind of a bummer, but not a deal breaker.  I would also like to see usb 3.  So my perfect Canon Camera would be FF sensor,   6-7fps, built-in flash, 1/8000, usb 3, better ISO noise than the 7D, great AF system.  If Canon can do that, I will be a first day buyer. 

The current rumored specs have me concerned.  I really want a built-in flash.  I bought the 7D in May, assuming Canon would come out with an entry level FF DSLR by the end of the year.  I planned on selling my 7D and upgrading to the new camera, so I hope I made the right decision.  I guess we will know more next week?  On the bright side(for me), I got my 7D for $1250, so I think I could get most of my money back.  The only lens I have is the 70-200 IS USM II.  If Canon doesn't come out with a competitor to the D600, I might consider selling all equipment and switching.  I'll wait for reviews before making that choice. 
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: EYEONE on September 13, 2012, 02:05:14 PM


I would buy that if the sensor and ISO noise were on par with the MK2 or better.  I love my 7D minus the ISO noise.    Basically I want the D600 with a Canon label on it.  The 1/4000 is kind of a bummer, but not a deal breaker.  I would also like to see usb 3.  So my perfect Canon Camera would be FF sensor,   6-7fps, built-in flash, 1/8000, usb 3, better ISO noise than the 7D, great AF system.  If Canon can do that, I will be a first day buyer. 

The current rumored specs have me concerned.  I really want a built-in flash.  I bought the 7D in May, assuming Canon would come out with an entry level FF DSLR by the end of the year.  I planned on selling my 7D and upgrading to the new camera, so I hope I made the right decision.  I guess we will know more next week?  On the bright side(for me), I got my 7D for $1250, so I think I could get most of my money back.  The only lens I have is the 70-200 IS USM II.  If Canon doesn't come out with a competitor to the D600, I might consider selling all equipment and switching.  I'll wait for reviews before making that choice.

I think the 6D has to have a pop up flash. It won't, but it should. The only use a pop up flash is to me is for controlling other external flashes. To me that's a huge deal.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 13, 2012, 02:07:59 PM
I think the 6D has to have a pop up flash. It won't, but it should. The only use a pop up flash is to me is for controlling other external flashes. To me that's a huge deal.

I'd rather it have the ability to directly control the 600EX-RT (and future -RT Speedlites) via radio with no pop-up flash.  But it won't have that, either.   ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: bvukich on September 13, 2012, 02:16:18 PM
The only lens I have is the 70-200 IS USM II.  If Canon doesn't come out with a competitor to the D600, I might consider selling all equipment and switching.  I'll wait for reviews before making that choice.

If your only point of reference is the 70-200/2.8IS II, you'll probably be pretty disappointed with most of Nikons lenses.  If that is the better platform for you, then by all means switch; you might be wise to rent first though, just to be safe.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: EYEONE on September 13, 2012, 02:16:56 PM
I think the 6D has to have a pop up flash. It won't, but it should. The only use a pop up flash is to me is for controlling other external flashes. To me that's a huge deal.

I'd rather it have the ability to directly control the 600EX-RT (and future -RT Speedlites) via radio with no pop-up flash.  But it won't have that, either.   ::)

Well, sure. Since we're dreaming I'll take that ability too  :P
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: preppyak on September 13, 2012, 02:17:40 PM
I'd rather it have the ability to directly control the 600EX-RT (and future -RT Speedlites) via radio with no pop-up flash.  But it won't have that, either.   ::)
Yeah, to me the pop-up flash is a waste of space atop the camera, I'd rather it be something embedded in the camera that allows control.

So my perfect Canon Camera would be FF sensor,   6-7fps, built-in flash, 1/8000, usb 3, better ISO noise than the 7D, great AF system.  If Canon can do that, I will be a first day buyer. 
Well, it definitely won't be 6-7fps, but you'll get the better ISO noise and AF system no doubt. USB3 would be nice, and I don't really care about the 1/4000 or 1/8000 distinction, neither is a critical setting for any action I shoot. I'm pretty happy with 1/1000th in most cases, to get to 1/8000th I'd need a really bright day
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: unfocused on September 13, 2012, 02:21:03 PM
I think the 6D has to have a pop up flash. It won't, but it should. The only use a pop up flash is to me is for controlling other external flashes. To me that's a huge deal.

I'd rather it have the ability to directly control the 600EX-RT (and future -RT Speedlites) via radio with no pop-up flash.  But it won't have that, either.   ::)

I'm afraid that with the sudden yanking of the 580EXII and Canon's unwillingness to make a receiver that would allow backward compatibility with the 580 series, we may have seen the last of the infrared triggers through popup flashes. I expect that to be dropped from the 7DII and all future models.

Not happy about it. I'm usually pretty forgiving of Canon, but their approach on the 600EX-RT was just not very professional when it could have so easily been addressed with an RT-Receiver. Purposely making their previously flagship model flash incompatible when such an easy fix is available is just irresponsible in my book. I'm just waiting for a Chinese company to come out with one. Serves Canon right on this.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Musouka on September 13, 2012, 02:23:29 PM
Even Nikon is using USB2 for the D600 so I doubt Canon would use USB3 for the 6D (Sony is also using USB2 for the A99).

At least they should make the (dual) SD slot(s) SDXC and UHS compatible + stereo mic for video recording. You will get less control in video but hopefully ML would solve that. Let us hope they won't go back to line-skipping in video, though. This way they can have something to counter the uncompressed video via HDMI feature in the D600.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: cliffwang on September 13, 2012, 02:24:48 PM
Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.

The T2i and 7D use the same CMOS image sensor...but you're claiming the T2i has substantially better IQ?  That's like buying two bottles of Guinness Extra Stout from different liquor stores and claiming one tastes much better...I suppose it's possible - but if so, it's clearly subjective and most likely due to having smoked something first...
I used to have both T2i and 7D.  I also feel the IQ on T2i is better than 7D when the AF is accurate.  Most time 7D has really grate/accurate AF, but T2i doesn't.
Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit.  Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: RLPhoto on September 13, 2012, 02:33:39 PM
Wow, $2,100 and Nikon doesn't even give you a full metal body?  I hope Canon isn't so cheap with the magnesium alloy.  You can get the 7D for $1200 and the body is a tank.  Hopefully the 6D will be the same. :-\

7D, built like a tank, but rebel-like IQ.  Even 650D is better.  :(

Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.

7D > T2i in everything.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: preppyak on September 13, 2012, 02:35:40 PM
Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit.  Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.
That's not really gonna improve IQ, as it doesn't affect the sensor or how the image is written. Maybe if you shoot all .jpg it could help a little with how it processes it, but for RAW files, Id be stunned if there is a difference. It was more an improvement on burst rate and some video features.

Having used the T2i, T3i, and 60D, the IQ is the same in all of them if I was shooting the same scene. Haven't used the 7D, but I can't see why it would differ
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Zlatko on September 13, 2012, 02:46:21 PM
Looks like you are carrying a peeve from our disagreement on the 24-70 thread.  ;)

No one said that the 5D3 was not a good blend/ all round camera, I own one myself. But I still think they Milked me and you.   :P
I'm not carrying a peeve.  I do think we have a philosophical disagreement on both of these products.

It is clear that camera manufacturers (not just Canon) introduce products at elevated prices to take advantage of early adopters.  This is true in many areas of commerce.  The subsequent decline in price is a form of variable pricing, which increases profit by attracting buyers at different price levels at different times.  Those who have an immediate need are willing to pay more.  Those who don't have an immediate need are willing to wait and save some money.  But there is nothing wrong with this.  No doubt, the 5D3 has some extra introductory "load" in the pricing.  It will eventually fall in price like most cameras do.

However, other than that introductory bump in price, I don't think we have any basis to say the 5D3 is overpriced for what it offers.  It's not a fungible substitute for the D800, so why should it be the same price?  It is likely that if Canon had to target the 5D3 for a lower selling price, then it would have been a lesser camera in some details, and then people would have complained that it should have been better.  I can't prove that, but I think it stands to reason.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 13, 2012, 02:50:04 PM
Having used the T2i, T3i, and 60D, the IQ is the same in all of them if I was shooting the same scene. Haven't used the 7D, but I can't see why it would differ

See, the thing is, I bought one of those bottles of Guinness on sale, and it was a buck cheaper than the other one that I paid full price.  The cheaper one tastes better.  It does.  Trust me.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: cptobvious on September 13, 2012, 02:54:24 PM
$2100 is low enough to pressure Canon to release the 6D more quickly, but not enough to drop the price on the 5D2.  I'm on the fence right now without a camera, looking for the best FF I can get for under $1500.  The pipe dream of a $1500 D600 is gone, so I'm hoping (but not expecting) that a discontinued/refurbished 5D2 or D700 will pop up around that price by Black Friday/Christmastime.  However, the D700 sold out so quickly at $2000 that I think it'll be a long wait.  I may just have to return to the old 5D.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: RLPhoto on September 13, 2012, 03:25:18 PM
$2100 is low enough to pressure Canon to release the 6D more quickly, but not enough to drop the price on the 5D2.  I'm on the fence right now without a camera, looking for the best FF I can get for under $1500.  The pipe dream of a $1500 D600 is gone, so I'm hoping (but not expecting) that a discontinued/refurbished 5D2 or D700 will pop up around that price by Black Friday/Christmastime.  However, the D700 sold out so quickly at $2000 that I think it'll be a long wait.  I may just have to return to the old 5D.

You can get FF digital cameras for 700$.  ::)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: preppyak on September 13, 2012, 03:32:20 PM
See, the thing is, I bought one of those bottles of Guinness on sale, and it was a buck cheaper than the other one that I paid full price.  The cheaper one tastes better.  It does.  Trust me.
haha...but the one I paid for price for has a swing top, so its cooler!
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: meli on September 13, 2012, 03:33:45 PM
Half plastic, overpriced, usual Nikon poor image quality, very inaccurate autofocus... don't know why they even bothered. Pointless gimmick camera. Bit I guess they'll just bribe dxo to give it 10x the score it deserves again.
funny world you're living in mate  :)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: stabmasterasron on September 13, 2012, 03:53:02 PM
Half plastic, overpriced, usual Nikon poor image quality, very inaccurate autofocus... don't know why they even bothered. Pointless gimmick camera. Bit I guess they'll just bribe dxo to give it 10x the score it deserves again.
funny world you're living in mate  :)

Yeah, that is funny.  I miss you guys.  I have not been on this forum in a few months because I sold all my Canon gear and bought a d7000.  But I see it is as caustic as ever on here.  I don't worry about specs and dxoMark scores and all of that stuff any more, I am just have a wonderful time shooting with my miraculous d7000.  I hope the d600 is just as good.  But I won't be buying one any time soon, I am happy with what I have.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: cliffwang on September 13, 2012, 04:23:23 PM
Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit.  Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.
That's not really gonna improve IQ, as it doesn't affect the sensor or how the image is written. Maybe if you shoot all .jpg it could help a little with how it processes it, but for RAW files, Id be stunned if there is a difference. It was more an improvement on burst rate and some video features.

Having used the T2i, T3i, and 60D, the IQ is the same in all of them if I was shooting the same scene. Haven't used the 7D, but I can't see why it would differ
I think firmware might help IQ.  If you are taking picture on the same place, light, and same setting, yes I believe the IQ from T2i, T3i, 60D, and 7D will be no different.  However, the newer firmware might be a little smarter for its lighting optimizer.  Another probability is like neur mentioned, tastes.  I really cannot tell.  Technically their IQ should be same, but I just feel they are slight different.  Anyway, 7D was my favorite camera before I got 5D3.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: daniel_charms on September 13, 2012, 04:46:30 PM

Yeah, that is funny.  I miss you guys.  I have not been on this forum in a few months because I sold all my Canon gear and bought a d7000.  But I see it is as caustic as ever on here.  I don't worry about specs and dxoMark scores and all of that stuff any more, I am just have a wonderful time shooting with my miraculous d7000.  I hope the d600 is just as good.  But I won't be buying one any time soon, I am happy with what I have.

The real joke here is that I checked Nikonrumors earlier today and the people here seem positively ecstatic about the d600 compared to that crowd. :o
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: stabmasterasron on September 13, 2012, 04:59:50 PM

Yeah, that is funny.  I miss you guys.  I have not been on this forum in a few months because I sold all my Canon gear and bought a d7000.  But I see it is as caustic as ever on here.  I don't worry about specs and dxoMark scores and all of that stuff any more, I am just have a wonderful time shooting with my miraculous d7000.  I hope the d600 is just as good.  But I won't be buying one any time soon, I am happy with what I have.

The real joke here is that I checked Nikonrumors earlier today and the people here seem positively ecstatic about the d600 compared to that crowd. :o

Yes, it's a lot like when the 5dmkiii dropped.  The rest of the photographic would was pretty excited.  I checked in here and there were multiple forum threads about how much it sucked and how Canon dropped the ball.  I guess you can't make everyone happy.  You could offer the 1Dx for $5 and someone would complain about how big it is (thats what she said). :P
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: brianleighty on September 13, 2012, 05:44:34 PM
$2100 is low enough to pressure Canon to release the 6D more quickly, but not enough to drop the price on the 5D2.  I'm on the fence right now without a camera, looking for the best FF I can get for under $1500.  The pipe dream of a $1500 D600 is gone, so I'm hoping (but not expecting) that a discontinued/refurbished 5D2 or D700 will pop up around that price by Black Friday/Christmastime.  However, the D700 sold out so quickly at $2000 that I think it'll be a long wait.  I may just have to return to the old 5D.
If you're willing to get a kit and sell the 24-105 for around $800 then you can have something pretty close to that. I got a 5D mark ii for $2400 with the 24-105. I said was going to sell the lens to my wife and then I just ended up keeping it :)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: brianleighty on September 13, 2012, 05:47:37 PM
I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: distant.star on September 13, 2012, 06:07:03 PM

.
I don't smoke anything, never have, but I have seen the same better IQ from my T2i compared to a 7D. The low ISO noise on a 7D is unacceptable to me.

Sure, it's subjective. Sure, it's anecdotal. But ash is not alone in his experience with Canon products. And none of my experience has been influenced by chemistry.



Nope, im shooting fashion week with a 'rebel' t2i- this rebel iq whoops 7d booty. Disclaimer- using the t2i because of image quality, and 7d is being retired, ready for trade in. Noisy POS.

The T2i and 7D use the same CMOS image sensor...but you're claiming the T2i has substantially better IQ?  That's like buying two bottles of Guinness Extra Stout from different liquor stores and claiming one tastes much better...I suppose it's possible - but if so, it's clearly subjective and most likely due to having smoked something first...
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 13, 2012, 07:26:37 PM
I know the difference isn't that much, but there it is.

Thanks for the link.  Clicking on the RAW Comparison subtab, scrolling down, Imaging Resource states, "As you can see, the Canon T4i performs very similar to the T3i, though detail in the red leaf cloth isn't quite as good (something we also saw in camera JPEGs)."  So, you were correct in that there is a slight difference...except the T4i/650D actually seems to be a little worse, not better, compared to the T3i (7D sensor).

What I'm trying to say is that it used to be that 7D speed, AF and weather seal are enough to justify its cost for me but now with the newer 650D it almost isn't the case anymore or shall we say it's already due for replacement.  Sure for sports or bird photographers like you, 7D might still be a better alternative or 2nd body but not for me or everyone else involved in other types of photography.  To add, money is also an object for somebody like me but not to professionals like you so my opinion on this matter.  Anyway, thanks for the advise on being happy with my 500D.  It makes sense. 

Well, the 7D is over three years old now.  But still, the IQ is equivalent to the 650D, the AF is substantially better, and the build is way better. 

One key thing for me, and a big part of the reason I upgraded from a T1i/500D to a 7D in the first place, is AF Microadjustment.  I shoot with fast primes, and the lack of AFMA can be a real problem in that case.  You either need to get lucky, be willing to buy and return multiple copies of a lens, or be willing to send lens(es) and body into Canon for adjustment.  Personally, I'll never buy a camera that lacks AFMA.  Now, I'm not going to buy one, but the D600 does have AFMA.  If Canon omit that from an entry-level FF body (as the omitted it from the 60D, despite having it in the 50D), that will be a serious error, IMO.

Reds are a little bit worse in 650D because of the on-chip noise reduction (digic 5) applied by newer versions of Canon.   But 650D improved in their DR department even if it is still a little bit below Nikon.  Anyway, it's true, AFMA is also one of reasons I want to go to FF  aside from the fact that you can get a far better IQ with FF.  I am also looking at Canon's entry level FF body.  As of now, I have problems shooting with the 28mm F1.8 wide open (I know with the 28, it's not recommended.  You need at least F2.2 to get sharper results).  But I can get sharper pictures using the live-view with manual focus.  I am fortunate with my 50mm and 100mm that they are very sharp copies.  If Canon omits it with 6D, you're getting the feeling that they are not taking care of their advance enthusiasts.  I might opt for 5D2 or 5D3 then which is of course a pain.  One too old (it might be very hard to get a new one) and one over-spec'd for me (though it's a good thing) but pricey.  :)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Aglet on September 14, 2012, 12:55:15 AM
.. I have seen the same better IQ from my T2i compared to a 7D. The low ISO noise on a 7D is unacceptable to me.

60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.
7D's sensor is similar to, but different from the other cameras. It utilizes a dual data readout for more fps.

You have to ETTR on the 7D to get the best out of it, a bit counterproductive for a "fast" camera.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: aznable on September 14, 2012, 02:24:13 AM
I used to have both T2i and 7D.  I also feel the IQ on T2i is better than 7D when the AF is accurate.  Most time 7D has really grate/accurate AF, but T2i doesn't.
Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit.  Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.

you are right, the raw output from 550D/t2i looks a little sharper than the one of 7d, subtle difference anyway
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 14, 2012, 02:30:36 AM
I used to have both T2i and 7D.  I also feel the IQ on T2i is better than 7D when the AF is accurate.  Most time 7D has really grate/accurate AF, but T2i doesn't.
Don't forget one thing, 7D has new firmware and that might improve the IQ bit.  Unfortunately, I have not chance to test the new firmware out.

you are right, the raw output from 550D/t2i looks a little sharper than the one of 7d, subtle difference anyway

Maybe there's a problem with how the Dual Digic 4 process the raw file.  Somehow, it gets more complicated when you use a dual chip.  Even ML can't get through it that they can't offer support on 7D.

http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/7D_support (http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/7D_support)

Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: moreorless on September 14, 2012, 02:31:30 AM
I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.

I think you could well be right and that the D600 and the 6D end up actually going after very different markets. The D600 to me looks much more a response to the 5D3 than it does an entry level model while Canon obviously have no need to come up with another camera in that area.

Could turn out to be smart business by Canon I'd say since I think price comes a much larger issue for entry level models. At that level giving up dial card slots, some FPS and AF performance on the D600 to save £500ish on a 6D would probabley be a popular choice.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 14, 2012, 02:39:14 AM
I've noticed several people mention the 6D having 2 card slots. I think this is DEFINITELY a feature that will be missing. It's an easy way to differentiate between it and the Mark iii plus if it's really trying to get the entry level ff market then most people upgrading will only be used to one slot while those that are using it for a 2nd body will realize that's the cost of saving some money or if it's really important to them then they'll go get a 5d mark iii.

I think you could well be right and that the D600 and the 6D end up actually going after very different markets. The D600 to me looks much more a response to the 5D3 than it does an entry level model while Canon obviously have no need to come up with another camera in that area.

If 6D can be offered @ around $1.5K - 1.8K with slightly better than 7D AF, I think it will be one of the most successful SLR of Canon.  It's like a cheaper 5D3.  I don't mind with the extra SD slot.  I hope Canon realize that with this, they can have more users using FF and more sales with their L and EF lenses.

Could turn out to be smart business by Canon I'd say since I think price comes a much larger issue for entry level models. At that level giving up dial card slots, some FPS and AF performance on the D600 to save £500ish on a 6D would probabley be a popular choice.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Bruce Photography on September 14, 2012, 03:10:44 AM
No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"?  I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800 which is very good.  I've used 12 to 13 MP cameras (5D) and then I've used the 5DII and the 5DIII.  I can tell you the difference is huge.  I can also say that the sensor on the D800 is amazing.  Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range.  Canon needs to step up their game and not just their prices.  The over $10,000 price of the super tels is way out of line.  Just my opinion as a 500mm F4 IS lens user that I bought over two years ago for about $6,000.  The new ones are sharper and somewhat lighter but not to justify the over $10,000 price.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Bruce Photography on September 14, 2012, 03:26:26 AM
No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"?  I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800 which is very good.  I've used 12 to 13 MP cameras (5D) and then I've used the 5DII and the 5DIII.  I can tell you the difference is huge.  I can also say that the sensor on the D800 is amazing.  Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range.  Canon needs to step up their game and not just their prices.  The over $10,000 price of the super tels is way out of line.  Just my opinion as a 500mm F4 IS lens user that I bought over two years ago for about $6,000.  The new ones are sharper and somewhat lighter but not to justify the over $10,000 price.

I just checked the spec sheet on the Nikon USA website: Autofocus Fine Tune Yes .
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: cliffwang on September 14, 2012, 03:35:13 AM
No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"?  I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800 which is very good.  I've used 12 to 13 MP cameras (5D) and then I've used the 5DII and the 5DIII.  I can tell you the difference is huge.  I can also say that the sensor on the D800 is amazing.  Both in terms of resolution and dynamic range.  Canon needs to step up their game and not just their prices.  The over $10,000 price of the super tels is way out of line.  Just my opinion as a 500mm F4 IS lens user that I bought over two years ago for about $6,000.  The new ones are sharper and somewhat lighter but not to justify the over $10,000 price.

I just checked the spec sheet on the Nikon USA website: Autofocus Fine Tune Yes .
Looks you are right.  Someone got the confirm from Nikon that D600 has Fine Tune +/-20.

http://photocamel.com/forum/nikon-forum/168715-nikon-d600-does-have-auto-focus-fine-tuning.html (http://photocamel.com/forum/nikon-forum/168715-nikon-d600-does-have-auto-focus-fine-tuning.html)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Marsu42 on September 14, 2012, 04:11:33 AM
60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.

The banding problem seems to vary strongly across different 7d samples, don't know why. For 7d banding, look here: http://a2bart.com/tech/allcamdknz.htm (http://a2bart.com/tech/allcamdknz.htm) (also look at 5d3 vs d800 ... but of course this is shown by raising shadows excessively).
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 14, 2012, 04:22:39 AM
60D also has more pleasant low ISO noise characteristic than the 7D; much less banding.

The banding problem seems to vary strongly across different 7d samples, don't know why. For 7d banding, look here: http://a2bart.com/tech/allcamdknz.htm (http://a2bart.com/tech/allcamdknz.htm) (also look at 5d3 vs d800 ... but of course this is shown by raising shadows excessively).

It seems this is becoming a 7D gripe thread.  :)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Marsu42 on September 14, 2012, 04:42:14 AM
It seems this is becoming a 7D gripe thread.  :)

... not my intention, but you're correct it's off-topic - I just wanted to provide the test link and state that not every 7d has that unbelievable catastrophic banding (wupps :-)). No, really, with proper exposure the differences across the 18mp sensors should be unnoticeable, they all have very high noise levels w/ iso800+ when raising shadows and not using ettr.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"?  I'm assuming the D600 will have the same feature as the D800

Cutting afma from a $2000+ camera body surely is only something Canon would consider?! Well, obviously I'm still extremely annoyed they disabled it in the 60d firmware (the compiler macro to disable it is "#define DISABLE_AFMA_PROTECT_7D_HAHAHA_IN_YOUR_FACE_USERS 1").

Canon: Now would be a good time to release a 60d firmware 2.0 with afma re-enabled, will you?
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: aznable on September 14, 2012, 04:44:36 AM
No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"? 

dpreview.com stated that MAFA was a missing feature
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: nicku on September 14, 2012, 04:45:48 AM
I use canon SLR's Film and Digital for more than 10 years.... BUT in the last one an half years Nikon is wiping the floor with Canon in terms of semipro and pro cameras... In terms of resolution, IQ, features, diversity AND MOST IMPORTANT PRICE. I know Canon L series is over Nikon top lens in terms of quality and diversity.

After 10 years  of using Canon gear and  last 2 years for professional photography i really considering switching to Nikon if Canon will not respond ( and i don't mean especially to Nikon D600 ) to Nikon. By this i mean by introducing a affordable entry lvl FF, a significant drop in price regarding 5D3 and an entry lvl sports/wildlife crop sensor ( called 7DMk2) with improved IQ.

Regarding the new Nikon D600..... two words: WELL DONE Nikon , no comment.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 14, 2012, 05:29:45 AM
No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"? 

dpreview.com stated that MAFA was a missing feature

DPREVIEW got it wrong.

http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d600-limitations?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nikon-d600-limitations (http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d600-limitations?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nikon-d600-limitations)
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm)

Autofocus
Nikon Multi-CAM 4800 autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection, fine-tuning, 39 focus points (including 9 cross-type sensors; the center 33 points are available at apertures slower than f/5.6 and faster than f/8, while the center 7 points are available at f/8), and AF-assist illuminator (range approx. 0.5 to 3 m/1 ft 8 in. to 9 ft 10 in.)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: nicku on September 14, 2012, 06:01:15 AM
No AF micro adjust. Max flash sync 1/200s. Max shutter speed 1/4000s.
For the price, I would get the D700 instead. Better everything (for me) except (arguably) the sensor.

Where did you get the "No AF Micro Adjust"? 

dpreview.com stated that MAFA was a missing feature

DPREVIEW got it wrong.

http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d600-limitations?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nikon-d600-limitations (http://mansurovs.com/nikon-d600-limitations?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=nikon-d600-limitations)
http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d600/spec.htm)

Autofocus
Nikon Multi-CAM 4800 autofocus sensor module with TTL phase detection, fine-tuning, 39 focus points (including 9 cross-type sensors; the center 33 points are available at apertures slower than f/5.6 and faster than f/8, while the center 7 points are available at f/8), and AF-assist illuminator (range approx. 0.5 to 3 m/1 ft 8 in. to 9 ft 10 in.)

Another big +
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 14, 2012, 06:02:20 AM
and focusing @F/8...  :D
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Musouka on September 14, 2012, 06:39:19 AM
and focusing @F/8...  :D

Well, you can always use Kenko  ;D

Bird Photography Equipment – Teleconverters for 7D and 5D MIII (http://10000birds.com/bird-photography-equipment-teleconverters-for-7d-and-5d-miii.htm)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: CharlieB on September 14, 2012, 07:16:28 AM
[quote author=nicku link=topic=9355.msg168571#msg168571 date=1347612348I know Canon L series is over Nikon top lens in terms of quality and diversity.

After 10 years  of using Canon gear and  last 2 years for professional photography i really considering switching to Nikon if Canon will not respond.....by introducing a affordable entry lvl FF, a significant drop in price regarding 5D3 and an entry lvl sports/wildlife crop sensor ( called 7DMk2) with improved IQ
[/quote]

Two years of making your living with cameras, Canon cameras, and you will sell them all, reinvest in another type of equipment because they wont respond in the ways you stated? 

After two years, I certainly hope any investment you have in Canon equipment has long since paid for itself many times over... I'm trying to rationale the business decision on this....
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: Marsu42 on September 14, 2012, 07:22:06 AM
39 focus points (including 9 cross-type sensors; the center 33 points are available at apertures slower than f/5.6 and faster than f/8, while the center 7 points are available at f/8), and AF-assist illuminator (range approx. 0.5 to 3 m/1 ft 8 in. to 9 ft 10 in.)

... +1 for the af assist light on the d600 Canon cut from the 5d3 so you need a $500+ 600rt flash to do that. All in all absolutely impressive I regret to say as a Canon shooter, but since Magic Lantern or other 3rd party firmware doesn't run on Nikon I still wouldn't want to switch.
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: verysimplejason on September 14, 2012, 08:09:58 AM
and focusing @F/8...  :D

Well, you can always use Kenko  ;D

Bird Photography Equipment – Teleconverters for 7D and 5D MIII (http://10000birds.com/bird-photography-equipment-teleconverters-for-7d-and-5d-miii.htm)

LOL!  :P
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: AmbientLight on September 14, 2012, 08:25:41 AM
[
I know Canon L series is over Nikon top lens in terms of quality and diversity.

After 10 years  of using Canon gear and  last 2 years for professional photography i really considering switching to Nikon if Canon will not respond.....by introducing a affordable entry lvl FF, a significant drop in price regarding 5D3 and an entry lvl sports/wildlife crop sensor ( called 7DMk2) with improved IQ
]

Two years of making your living with cameras, Canon cameras, and you will sell them all, reinvest in another type of equipment because they wont respond in the ways you stated? 

After two years, I certainly hope any investment you have in Canon equipment has long since paid for itself many times over... I'm trying to rationale the business decision on this....

+1

Like anyone with a 5D or 1D X or 1Ds or whatever full-frame body you shoot with will want to switch to Nikon, because they bring out a new entry level full-frame body. This is only significant for Nikon shooters wanting to switch to a cheaper full-frame body. If you have Canon lenses, there is no point in changing systems just for that. If you are invested in the likes of Nikon D800 or D3/D4, there is also not a big impact by a new entry-level camera. Perhaps you might consider it as a backup camera, but so what?
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: meli on September 15, 2012, 06:26:00 AM

Like anyone with a 5D or 1D X or 1Ds or whatever full-frame body you shoot with will want to switch to Nikon, because they bring out a new entry level full-frame body. This is only significant for Nikon shooters wanting to switch to a cheaper full-frame body. If you have Canon lenses, there is no point in changing systems just for that. If you are invested in the likes of Nikon D800 or D3/D4, there is also not a big impact by a new entry-level camera. Perhaps you might consider it as a backup camera, but so what?
I doubt its just for nikon shooters, its a really well round package with a few really sweet adds(dual sd, spotlinked meter, flash, F8 etc) that its bound to interest everyone in the market for FF. Obviously not the guy with 5k+ on canon lenses but definitely Aps-c and 1st and/or 2nd gen FF users who cant afford or dont want to spend 3k+ on a new camera

Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: funkboy on September 15, 2012, 08:30:23 AM
An interesting unintended side-effect of bundling even mid-range DSLRs with crappy kit lenses (in the interest of keeping price down) is that there's no system "lock-in" for the folks that bought the bundles.  A 60D user with only the 18-55 lens is a lot more likely to just sell the whole thing & move to another brand than someone with a Rebel that loves her lens(es) & wants a better camera, even if she only owns one optic...
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: simonxu11 on September 16, 2012, 08:30:08 AM
D600 ISO performance test against D700, pretty good to me.
http://fotospekter.si/primerjava-med-nikonom-d700-in-d600-pri-razlicnih-iso-vrednostih/ (http://fotospekter.si/primerjava-med-nikonom-d700-in-d600-pri-razlicnih-iso-vrednostih/)
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: K-amps on September 17, 2012, 05:12:24 PM
I think we can see how Canon will respond - with a very forgetful camera.

+1

And your Sir are now an Honorary CR Prophet !
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: JohanCruyff on February 09, 2013, 06:24:02 AM
Did anybody predict that Nikon would beat Canon in everything including dust?
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: sandymandy on February 09, 2013, 07:13:07 AM
Nikon sales still went down -19% :P
Title: Re: Nikon D600 announced - $2100, let's see how Canon response!!!
Post by: wsmith96 on February 09, 2013, 08:19:52 AM
The part I think is neat is that the video could be shot using either dx or fx format.  That type of functionality would be great if canon could use its software to control the sensor size to either be FF or aps-c on an actual FF sensor.  That would allow beginners a smooth transition to a FF camera while allowing them usage of any existing lens that they have.  I'm sure there would have to be trade offs such as 24mp FF or when using apsc mode it would be 12 or 15 mp.  Even better would be for the camera software to recognize the lens and switch automatically so that there aren't any mistakes when photographing. 

This could open up a ton of demand.  Further thinking, this would allow canon to reduce the number of sensors that they have to make.  People love to hack. Could you imagine if canon put these sensors in the rebel line but locked them down to apsc size?  You would develop huge community of people that would learn how to jail break their camera just like an iPhone to get the FF capability. It wouldn't matter to canon because the cost of the sensor has already been taken in account with the initial sale of the camera, but the camera would still be limited by the af/IQ of the rebels. Prosumers and pros would still buy the higher end cameras and canon would be in a better position to sell glass which is where it makes most of its money anyway.  People like to tinker with things like that, just look at majic lantern. If you jail break your camera, you would still need to buy ef lenses to use the sensor size.....