canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Canon General => Topic started by: CowGummy on September 17, 2012, 09:11:27 PM

Title: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: CowGummy on September 17, 2012, 09:11:27 PM
This post is not intended to start a war on this forum, but I just wanted to voice my support for Canon at this point in time. Reading through recent forum posts on here, I get the impression that most people have gotten really fed up with the company and their products... I for one can't quite understand why? Call me a fanboy (whatever, I've also shot Nikon dslr, and going back a few years...ahem decades... Minoltas and Pentax 35mm slrs), but the sheer choice right now is brilliant if you ask me. Last year I was in the position of wanting to upgrade to Full Frame, and at the time there was literally only one (I will stand corrected on this - please do let me know) body in the canon lineup that I could consider for FF: The 5DII, which is what I bought. I've been very, very happy with my purchase, but alas, if Iwas making the jump right now, like a lot of people seem to be, I would have the choice of 4 bodies: 1DX, 6D, 5DII or 5DIII - seems to me like a great time to be entering the canon fullframe arena!?

I'm interested to hear why people are becoming more and more unhappy with canon products? If it's the price, in my opinion this doesn't really count... I know I'm gonna take some flack for this, but you get what you pay for and if you can;t afford it, either save your money or look elsewhere. I would like to drive a BMW M5, but I can't afford it. Instead I drive a humble VW golf. Doesn't stop me lusting after the M5, but I wouldn't start complaining to BMW about the price, and demand it drops down to VW pricing. It's simply out of my reach at this point. Tough totty.

As far as I can see it's a great time to be doing photography and canon is still the first port of call for me. My 5DII still takes awesome shots and I intend to keep it for another 5 years, much like my 400D before that.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: dr croubie on September 17, 2012, 09:59:17 PM
I'm upset, not because of the 6D, but what it could have been.
Face it, the 6D is just an incremental 'upgrade' (and I use the term loosely) to the 5D mk2. Will it take pictures as well as the 5D mk2? Damn straight it will. Is it a fine camera? Well, it's as good as the 5D mk2.

But the 5D mk2 is 4 years old. It was groundbreaking 4 years ago, because there was nothing else like it. Now there's a lot like it, including itself.
The 6D isn't an 'upgrade', it's exactly the same camera with a few fancy 'rebel' features. It may as well be the 5D mk2n, or the 18-55 IS II.

10 years ago, Canon was groundbreaking, the 1Ds was the first FF DSLR that didn't break the bank (much).
Then 4 years ago, they were groundbreaking again, 5Dmk2 was the first FF that 'normal' people could afford, plus it had full HD video. The market went nuts, and justifiably so.
Canon were streets ahead of the competition, with good reason. Their R&D was good, they whipped the pants off anything from the yelow camp.

Then they turned into this:
(http://sleevage.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/fatboyslim_youvecome.jpg)


4 years later, and what do we get? The same as the 5D mk2, give or take 5% better or worse in some areas.

The 5D mk3 was the upgrade for the 5D mk2, surely. It was the first time since the EOS 3 that top-of-the-line AF came in a non-1-series body. It has good IQ, good low-light. But it wasn't 'groundbreaking' in its price (and in terms of the competition, the D800 is a lot more 'groundbreaking' than the 5D3). The FF-for-the-masses was still the 5D mk2, Canon acknowledged that by keeping the 5D2 in the line-up.

The 6D does nothing. It replaces the 5D mk2. It does nothing to 'upgrade'. And then they have the balls to charge the same or higher than the 5D mk2. And they have even more balls to charge us just a smidge under the D600, for about half-as-much camera.

Nikon are catching up. Maybe in terms of sales, definitely in terms of tech. More power to them.
i'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say, i can't switch camps. Too many lenses, workflow, whatever. I can't afford a 5D3. If i could afford a 6D, i'd rather get a 5D mk2 and a good lens to boot.

The 6D is not a 'bad' camera. But it's 4 years too late, and $500 too much. We expected more.

Is there anything 'wrong' with the 5D mk3? Hell no, it's a great camera. But for that price, it's not 'the best' anymore. Weigh up Pros and Cons of 5D mk3 and D800, and you end up about even. You don't get the same as when you weigh up 5D mk2 vs D700, that was very tipped in Canon's favour.

Is there anything wrong with the EOS M? No, it looks very good. But again, it's just so very "mirrorless? me too!". OK, it's much better than some tiny-sensored things (i'm looking at you, J1). But it's just a Canon-brand NEX. Nothing has that 'excitement', nothing is 'groundbreaking'. FF NEX might be out next year, i'd get excited at that. Digital XPan might get announced tomorrow, i'll get excited at that. Leica just announced an M with Liveview. That may be 'incremental' from the M9, but when you realise that it's the first FF Mirrorless on which you can mount almost *any* FF lens ever made, that's exciting (it's unaffordable, but it's still exciting).


Does that make it our fault, for expecting Canon to continue to be 'groundbreaking', to be 'exciting'?
Yes, i'll wear that.
I expected more.
I will never expect anything 'exceptional' from Canon again.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: matt2491 on September 17, 2012, 10:18:51 PM
Well said.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Kahuna on September 17, 2012, 10:33:40 PM
I am upset too.  Ferrari releases the 458 Italia in 2011 with a whopping 0-60 mph in 3.0 seconds.  Now in 2013 they'll be releasing the F12.  It only does the 0-60 in 3.1 seconds. 

I'm going with the Lambo Aventador.....
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: tnargs on September 17, 2012, 10:34:18 PM
I'm upset, not because of the 6D, but what it could have been.....I expected more. I will never expect anything 'exceptional' from Canon again.

Ah, unrealistic expectation resulting in upset.

For me, it is a very pleasant surprise. A more affordable FF Canon. Just what is needed.

It should be a very nice camera. Can't wait to see a full review.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: dr croubie on September 17, 2012, 10:42:25 PM
For me, it is a very pleasant surprise. A more affordable FF Canon. Just what is needed.

Is it more affordable than a 5D mk2?
If not, is it that much better than a 5D mk2 to justify the extra cost?

You may love the GPS and the Wifi, and for you that's saved $500 in accessories or whatever, so that could justify the cost.
To me, they're worth $0 because I wouldn't use them. They're practically the only difference to a 5D2 (within 5% margin of upgrade/downgrade), so that extra price for practically the same camera is what hurts.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Mark1 on September 17, 2012, 10:56:29 PM
I've got no issues with where Canon are headed right now and I like the 6D. People want ground breaking upgrades? Go mirrorless - that's where the true innovation is going to come from. Sensor technology for DSLRs is pretty much peaked now and YOU WILL NOT SEE MASSIVE UPGRADES IN IQ FROM NEW BODIES. Incremental improvements here and there maybe yes but the 5D2 was and always will be the ground breaker - it will never be surpassed in terms of what it bought to photographers in one huge dose. Get over it!

Nikon's DSLRs are great on paper but how will they perform in the real world? How tactile are they? How good is the glass? How much is the glass? How many AF points do you really need?

I reckon Canon are secretly miffed with all these newbies with too much money who bleat about bad AF and want more predictive and complicated systems in their cameras. Go buy an EOS1n with it's 5 AF points and run some films through it and learn how to focus properly. It's easy, you just need to understand the principle of depth of field.

I fear that the biggest issue is not the equipment that Canon are producing here but the new generation of photogrpahers who don't understand the basic principles of taking a picture.

 
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: unfocused on September 17, 2012, 11:10:23 PM
Cowgummy, you are being too reasonable.

Don't you know that the main purpose of this forum is to complain because Canon doesn't build each camera individually to the custom specifications of its customers for $1,000 maximum.

Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: buddhaboy on September 17, 2012, 11:12:22 PM
Let me start by saying I love my canon camera.  For me the frustration is not in the speed of upgrades, it's the out of whack practice of lower end cameras getting features first.

I think the 6D is what was needed, a more affordable entry level FF. What I'm pi$$ed that it comes with built in features (wifi control via smart phone & built in GPS) that are thing that I get to pay +$400 for on my Mrk III, or that are not available.  These were features that I (and many others) wanted 4 years ago, and I kind of expected to be standard at this point in time on DSLRs.  Now it appears I could have saved a lot of money going with this lower end camera to get all the features I wanted (FF, Improved focus, improved ISO, Camera and Movie Mode, Around 20mp, Built in GPS, WiFi control via smart phone).

As I recall, when the 7D came out, it ended up having a few features that the 5D Mrk II did not (but eventually did get).  This is almost the same thing, but these features can't be added in firmware, they have to be purchased for a premium. It's like design and marketing aren't thinking when they come up with features for the users. More like how can we get the most money out of our users wallets?  When it's time for me to get a new camera body in a few years, if Canon is still pulling the same stupid maneuvers, I'll be jump ship.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: pdirestajr on September 17, 2012, 11:20:36 PM
Cameras come and go.

My 24mm f/1.4II, 135mm f/2, 70-200.... now those are some sexy things.

I'll run my bodies into the ground while I spend my loot on glass.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Random Orbits on September 17, 2012, 11:31:22 PM
Just remember that the 5D II won't be around much longer, so that comparison will be largely moot.  At that point, you can get the 7D, 6D, 5D III or go with another brand.  7D is listed for 1500 even now, so how much lower could Canon price it at release?  I'm sure that Canon expects the price to drop as time goes on, and that 2100 will be highest it plans to charge for it.  How fast will it drop?  That will depend on how well it does at 2100.  I'm sure Canon was thrilled that Nikon priced the D600 at 2100 (if it is cheaper to produce than the Nikon, then Canon will have the flexibility to go after maximum profits or market share).  However, with more plastic and a smaller size than the 5D II, the 6D is poised to go below the 5D II price of 1900 because it is cheaper to produce.  After a few years, FF photography will be more affordable than it is now, and that is a win for the consumer.  Value-driven consumers will not the majority of the early adopters; they will buy later when the price drops or when sizable rebates arrive.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: jjsanc2 on September 17, 2012, 11:55:57 PM
I love Canon as well and have to believe there is a reason why they chose to introduce a new AF system and sensor, rather than repurpose the 5DII sensor and 7D AF.  Perhaps greatly improved DR?  Perhaps simplified but excellent AF?  Heck, with focusing at -3EV, this might be a low-light focusing monster with awesome high ISO capability.  We don't know yet, but before bashing let's see what it can do.  For a lot of people this will be exactly the camera that bridges them from crop to FF.

Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: robbymack on September 18, 2012, 12:13:37 AM
Timely post. I love the fanboys on either side. They Keep the forum entertaining. Personally I am very happy with canon. I think there is more than "mega pickles" and dr. I fact I hate the ergonomics and weight of Nikon pro bodies. If you need the latest sensor tech from Sony go with one of their dslr's. They at least have in body IS.  if you go to nikon let me know how you like their 70-200 or 24-70, oh you want a 24-105, 50 1.2, 85 1.2, or really anything longer than 300 sorry no real options. A camera is more than the body. Sure canon r&d got hit by a Sony juggernaut. I suspect in a few years time all dslr's will use Sony senors simply because they can access an economy of scale canon cannot.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Meh on September 18, 2012, 12:44:29 AM
I reckon Canon are secretly miffed with all these newbies with too much money who bleat about bad AF and want more predictive and complicated systems in their cameras. Go buy an EOS1n with it's 5 AF points and run some films through it and learn how to focus properly. It's easy, you just need to understand the principle of depth of field.

Whoomp, there it is!  It never takes long... you guessed it... it's the "go learn how to use your gear and be a better photographer like me" post.  Love it.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Axilrod on September 18, 2012, 12:51:14 AM
I agree with you completely on the price complaints, and have used a similar car analogy trying to explain it.  This Louis CK video is pretty relevant to what you're saying, in summary "everything is amazing and no one is happy."  Everythings Amazing & Nobodys Happy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk#)
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Mark1 on September 18, 2012, 01:57:24 AM
I reckon Canon are secretly miffed with all these newbies with too much money who bleat about bad AF and want more predictive and complicated systems in their cameras. Go buy an EOS1n with it's 5 AF points and run some films through it and learn how to focus properly. It's easy, you just need to understand the principle of depth of field.

Whoomp, there it is!  It never takes long... you guessed it... it's the "go learn how to use your gear and be a better photographer like me" post.  Love it.

I didn't say "like me" but I did mean like most people who don't rely on Canon to take their pictures for them. I think a lot of photographers are handing the creativity over to Canon and relying on them to make up for their shortcomings, like not being able focus in the same manner in which professionals have been doing for the last 50 years.

More af points means more fiddling with the controls and hoping the processor works out what you want it to focus on. That's all I'm saying.

The one thing I will say however is that I think it is very cheeky of Canon not to put the GPS in the 5D3.   

Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: thelebaron on September 18, 2012, 01:59:55 AM
I think that integrated gps, wifi and touch are pretty innovative for a dslr, especially a pro level(whether you think it is or not, its at the xD level). It sounds like its the 5d3's sensor just with the 5d2 level features with some evolutionary upgrades. Wifi, gps both sound like nice additions in the same vein as the electronic level, handy to have. Touchscreen hmm meh to me.
I dont understand people wanting this to be cheaper regardless of those features, why would a company place it at the level of another one of its products, namely the 7d? If you mark that down, the 60d price point is threatened and so on and so on. They dont want their products to compete with each other, and it opens up the very likely possibility of successors for those as well. I did expect the af to be at to be all cross types like the t4i's so that part confuses me.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: jfretless on September 18, 2012, 02:16:21 AM
I think that integrated gps, wifi and touch are pretty innovative for a dslr, especially a pro level(whether you think it is or not, its at the xD level). It sounds like its the 5d3's sensor just with the 5d2 level features with some evolutionary upgrades. Wifi, gps both sound like nice additions in the same vein as the electronic level, handy to have. Touchscreen hmm meh to me.
I dont understand people wanting this to be cheaper regardless of those features, why would a company place it at the level of another one of its products, namely the 7d? If you mark that down, the 60d price point is threatened and so on and so on. They dont want their products to compete with each other, and it opens up the very likely possibility of successors for those as well. I did expect the af to be at to be all cross types like the t4i's so that part confuses me.

No touchscreen on the 6D.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: nicku on September 18, 2012, 02:29:45 AM
I'm upset, not because of the 6D, but what it could have been.
Face it, the 6D is just an incremental 'upgrade' (and I use the term loosely) to the 5D mk2. Will it take pictures as well as the 5D mk2? Damn straight it will. Is it a fine camera? Well, it's as good as the 5D mk2.

But the 5D mk2 is 4 years old. It was groundbreaking 4 years ago, because there was nothing else like it. Now there's a lot like it, including itself.
The 6D isn't an 'upgrade', it's exactly the same camera with a few fancy 'rebel' features. It may as well be the 5D mk2n, or the 18-55 IS II.

10 years ago, Canon was groundbreaking, the 1Ds was the first FF DSLR that didn't break the bank (much).
Then 4 years ago, they were groundbreaking again, 5Dmk2 was the first FF that 'normal' people could afford, plus it had full HD video. The market went nuts, and justifiably so.
Canon were streets ahead of the competition, with good reason. Their R&D was good, they whipped the pants off anything from the yelow camp.

Then they turned into this:
(http://sleevage.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/fatboyslim_youvecome.jpg)


4 years later, and what do we get? The same as the 5D mk2, give or take 5% better or worse in some areas.

The 5D mk3 was the upgrade for the 5D mk2, surely. It was the first time since the EOS 3 that top-of-the-line AF came in a non-1-series body. It has good IQ, good low-light. But it wasn't 'groundbreaking' in its price (and in terms of the competition, the D800 is a lot more 'groundbreaking' than the 5D3). The FF-for-the-masses was still the 5D mk2, Canon acknowledged that by keeping the 5D2 in the line-up.

The 6D does nothing. It replaces the 5D mk2. It does nothing to 'upgrade'. And then they have the balls to charge the same or higher than the 5D mk2. And they have even more balls to charge us just a smidge under the D600, for about half-as-much camera.

Nikon are catching up. Maybe in terms of sales, definitely in terms of tech. More power to them.
i'm sure I speak for a lot of people when I say, i can't switch camps. Too many lenses, workflow, whatever. I can't afford a 5D3. If i could afford a 6D, i'd rather get a 5D mk2 and a good lens to boot.

The 6D is not a 'bad' camera. But it's 4 years too late, and $500 too much. We expected more.

Is there anything 'wrong' with the 5D mk3? Hell no, it's a great camera. But for that price, it's not 'the best' anymore. Weigh up Pros and Cons of 5D mk3 and D800, and you end up about even. You don't get the same as when you weigh up 5D mk2 vs D700, that was very tipped in Canon's favour.

Is there anything wrong with the EOS M? No, it looks very good. But again, it's just so very "mirrorless? me too!". OK, it's much better than some tiny-sensored things (i'm looking at you, J1). But it's just a Canon-brand NEX. Nothing has that 'excitement', nothing is 'groundbreaking'. FF NEX might be out next year, i'd get excited at that. Digital XPan might get announced tomorrow, i'll get excited at that. Leica just announced an M with Liveview. That may be 'incremental' from the M9, but when you realise that it's the first FF Mirrorless on which you can mount almost *any* FF lens ever made, that's exciting (it's unaffordable, but it's still exciting).


Does that make it our fault, for expecting Canon to continue to be 'groundbreaking', to be 'exciting'?
Yes, i'll wear that.
I expected more.
I will never expect anything 'exceptional' from Canon again.


You read my thoughts... :o
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on September 18, 2012, 02:42:56 AM
my take..I can be mad at a canon product but not canon as a whole.  I like my mk3.  And my 7d served me well.  And my 24-70 and 70-200 truly rock.  Would love to get my hands on the v2 of the 70-200.  So I'm not mad at canon as a whole.  But, I do not like the 6d, at least on paper.  I guess we'll have to see the quality of the new sensor.   Maybe it will surprise us?  If it can hold its own at higher ISO's than the mk2 (maybe even close to the mk3, would love that but is highly doubtful of it too).  If it can, great, but what of the AF?  Is it back to center point recompose?  If that's the case, yeah I can make it work but do i want to do that?  I'd accept it if I were to snag a 5d2, but not on something brand new.  Bottom line, will I buy it.  Pretty sure the answer is no.  As it stands, I'm saving towards a second mk3 or a used 1dmk4,.  Has canon lost me as a customer, no, but as a buyer of this particular product, most likely yes.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: nicku on September 18, 2012, 02:57:09 AM
let's compare the 7D with the 60D...

launch price: 7D $1699 ; 60D $1099. The price difference between the cameras is $600.

the specs difference is huge; many of us know them, but let me remind them:

7D features over 60D

- better body construction ( all magnesium alloy)
- new and much better AF
- improved shutter life
- Faster shutter speed
- CF card slot
- much better weather sealing
- 100% frame coverage
- bigger pentaprism
- Dual Digic 4 processors
- better LCD ( top and back of the camera)
- in camera AFMA
- camera joystick

 and many others.....

Judging by this comparison i came to one conclusion : 

If they wanted to produce a better camera than the current 6D specs they could have done without affecting the profit very much.

The new 6D in my opinion was designed by Canon as a milch cow. I believe this plan will backfire  due to the greed of high revenue /unit sold.

Nikon has a different marketing strategy... lower revenue/unit sold , but high number of sales.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: larams67 on September 18, 2012, 03:36:50 AM
Except in the BMW analogy people do not buy thousands of dollars worth of equipment that will only fit that BMW.

They are not tied to the car in the same way as specific camera users are. Be it Nikon, Canon or whoever.

So in a sense we are tied to our choice of camera makers and are having to rely on them to stay up with technology and give us the best they can and also at fair prices.

A lot of people right now on Canons side aren't feeling like that is happening. It doesn't appear to me like Canon is working nearly as hard as Nikon is to satisfy it's users and attract new ones.

The fact of the matter is. For me it's not Canons superior products that are keeping me with them. It's purely the economics of losing a few thousand dollars selling my old gear and having to buy all new lenses and flash systems for Nikon. Personally I think Canon knows this is a common mentality and they play off it.

Simply put they are milking us.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: EchoLocation on September 18, 2012, 04:03:31 AM
This car analogy is not a good one OP. Cars are completely different.
First of all, we aren't comparing a BMW  to VW, we are comparing Honda to Toyota, or BMW to Mercedes.... of course it would be unfair to compare prices of a BMW(Canon 1D/5D series) to a VW(7D/Rebel)
Two cameras at the same price point are being compared, the 6D and the D600, or 5DIII and D800. The 6D's specs just don't look any better to me than the 5DII's. In fact, i'd probably rather have a 5DII than a 6D. The only problem is, is that the 5DII has been out for 4 years, and I have never really wanted it. I want a FF camera with better, more expansive AF. If I had wanted the 5DII I would of bought it over a year ago new when it was selling for 2000 or less, or refurbished from Canon's CLP. So, to me, Canon isn't offering as good or as exciting of products as Nikon is at this point..... add to this a $2300 new 24-70(the lens I want the most) and i'm overall unhappy with my choices in Canon. I'm buying a D600 and 24-70 2.8 for around 3800 dollars, instead of a 5DIII(I wouldn't consider the 6D) and 24-70 II for $5200.
While Canon is a great company I'm not sure that
Second, cameras are part of an overall system. When you choose to buy Canon or Nikon bodies or glass you are stating your loyalty to these companies by investing in an overall system of lenses and bodies. This is nothing like choosing to buy a car.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Marsu42 on September 18, 2012, 04:17:30 AM
Reading through recent forum posts on here, I get the impression that most people have gotten really fed up with the company and their products...

Because Canon a) shamelessly exploits brand loyalties (misplaced as they may be, but I've been shooting Canon for two decades) and b) deliberately cripple "lesser" cameras to make users upgrade (60d vs 50d: no afma = 7d upgrade; 6d vs 5d2: no true center cross sensor @f2.8 = 5d3 upgrade).

let's compare the 7D with the 60D...
launch price: 7D $1699 ; 60D $1099. The price difference between the cameras is $600.
the specs difference is huge; many of us know them, but let me remind them:
7D features over 60D

But when the 60d was released, the 7d hadn't dropped in price as much as the 5d3 now - and paying $1100->$1700 is different than $2100->$2800, no matter the absolute difference. I think Canon expects the 6d to drop in price very fast, that's why they set a high start point.

Btw: we'll have to see about the real world af and sensor performance of the 6d, because the 60d (also?) has better iq than the 7d due to less banding and it also added some gimmicks (60d: swivel screen, 6d: wifi/gps). The most important thing about the 6d is that it most likely will run Magic Lantern :-)
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: tomscott on September 18, 2012, 04:23:26 AM
I will judge when we have an actual idea about how this camera works, as no one has picked it up and used it yet to review it. Until then you can argue the specs until your blue in the face.

Although a few people might be eating their words. This product isnt for me but doesn't mean its not for anyone else. A lot of people on here fancy themselves as pros but I wonder how many actually are.

You wont be able to compare the 5DMKII to the 6D because by the time it comes out it will have been discontinued. Anyone who makes money from photography doesn't buy used, as its a risk. Any down time means money lost, so the only cameras you can compare it to in Canons line up are the 5DMKIII and the 1DX.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: nicku on September 18, 2012, 04:51:05 AM


Although a few people might be eating their words. This product isnt for me but doesn't mean its not for anyone else. A lot of people on here fancy themselves as pros but I wonder how many actually are.

You wont be able to compare the 5DMKII to the 6D because by the time it comes out it will have been discontinued. Anyone who makes money from photography doesn't buy used, as its a risk. Any down time means money lost, so the only cameras you can compare it to in Canons line up are the 5DMKIII and the 1DX.

+1
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: AvTvM on September 18, 2012, 04:52:06 AM
Sentiment against Canon from many of its customers comes from the fact, that Canon has been massively losing ground over the last 4 years against Nikon, Sony.
5 years ago Canon CMOS sensors ruled supreme. They got complacent, now the situation is reversed. Canon is not able to come up with fully competitive cameras - especially in the "enthusiast" user segment and especially for (stills) photographers.  Too much attention seems to be going into video crap all over. Canon should make the C-line camcorders for the video crowd, and should stop bending over backwards to those cheapo-video freaks who want to use DSLRs for video ... the single most unsuited imaging gear for that purpose. These days, a proper HD full frame HD camcorder can be had for 3k ... so no need any longer to abuse DSLRs for HD video stuff.

On top of that comes Canons arrogance, its incredibly infuriating "market differentiation" by crippling not only hardware, but even firmware functions, that do not cost a thing. Combined with ludicrous price hikes all the time. 6D would have been ok as a base level "FF rebel" ...  at 1 grand ... but 2 grand ... how ridiculous, when 2.800 USD will get you a Nikon D800.

Canon will pay the price very soon. They will lose market leadership for interchangeable lens cameras in 2013. Deservedly so! They really need a wake-up call. And kick out their geriatric croporate brass.

I will contribute to that wake up call. Once I "upgrade" from my current 7D to FF and need to sell my EF-S glass anyway 10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro I will also sell my EF glass 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.0, 70-200/2.8 II and take my money elsewhere, if all Canon has to offer is overpriced and underspecced cr*p.   
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Cannon Man on September 18, 2012, 04:58:58 AM
This post is not intended to start a war on this forum, but I just wanted to voice my support for Canon at this point in time. Reading through recent forum posts on here, I get the impression that most people have gotten really fed up with the company and their products... I for one can't quite understand why? Call me a fanboy (whatever, I've also shot Nikon dslr, and going back a few years...ahem decades... Minoltas and Pentax 35mm slrs), but the sheer choice right now is brilliant if you ask me. Last year I was in the position of wanting to upgrade to Full Frame, and at the time there was literally only one (I will stand corrected on this - please do let me know) body in the canon lineup that I could consider for FF: The 5DII, which is what I bought. I've been very, very happy with my purchase, but alas, if Iwas making the jump right now, like a lot of people seem to be, I would have the choice of 4 bodies: 1DX, 6D, 5DII or 5DIII - seems to me like a great time to be entering the canon fullframe arena!?

I'm interested to hear why people are becoming more and more unhappy with canon products? If it's the price, in my opinion this doesn't really count... I know I'm gonna take some flack for this, but you get what you pay for and if you can;t afford it, either save your money or look elsewhere. I would like to drive a BMW M5, but I can't afford it. Instead I drive a humble VW golf. Doesn't stop me lusting after the M5, but I wouldn't start complaining to BMW about the price, and demand it drops down to VW pricing. It's simply out of my reach at this point. Tough totty.

As far as I can see it's a great time to be doing photography and canon is still the first port of call for me. My 5DII still takes awesome shots and I intend to keep it for another 5 years, much like my 400D before that.

Finally someone posted something decent! You read my thoughts. No matter how positive the thread starts it always turns to hating canon. Most of the time the prices tick people off.
I don't usually read past the second page because it is just canon hate on a canon forum.

I'm just happy there is a great selection of lenses and camera bodies out there that let me do exactly what i need to do.

Please switch to nikon already if you don't like any cameras that canon makes or stop complaining.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: hyles on September 18, 2012, 05:00:33 AM
I think IQ of 6D will turn to be at least as good as 5DIII.
I don't think d600 is better, it is different, but i do think that what is missing to 6D is the fact that canon fans cannot say "Canon is better". It seems to me that it is not really importat what the camera can do, but it is more importat that it can do it better than any nikon. So it is allway canon vs nikon, " I have canon, so canon must be better" otherway i'll be uppset.
Diego
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: nicku on September 18, 2012, 05:20:33 AM
I think IQ of 6D will turn to be at least as good as 5DIII.
I don't think d600 is better, it is different, but i do think that what is missing to 6D is the fact that canon fans cannot say "Canon is better". It seems to me that it is not really importat what the camera can do, but it is more importat that it can do it better than any nikon. So it is allway canon vs nikon, " I have canon, so canon must be better" otherway i'll be uppset.
Diego

Canon 6D misses some very ''minor'' things compared with other Canon FF cameras but most important with the direct competitor D600, things like:

- AF
- body construction
- fps
- MP
- dual card slots....
and others.
I believe those features are making 50% of the camera. The other half is the IQ and high ISO performance. The available pictures so far are saying that the ''others'' are better even in that segment.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: aj1575 on September 18, 2012, 05:47:52 AM
I will contribute to that wake up call. Once I "upgrade" from my current 7D to FF and need to sell my EF-S glass anyway 10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro I will also sell my EF glass 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.0, 70-200/2.8 II and take my money elsewhere, if all Canon has to offer is overpriced and underspecced cr*p.
Then good luck and enjoy the grass that is greener on the other side...

The 6D at 2100$, it's still a lot of money, but it is the same as a similiar speced D600. (D600 has more AF-Points, and bigger zone metering, built in flash, dual card slot, while the 6D has WiFi and GPS). But you can be sure, that that price will drop, like the one of the 5D III is starting to do. Early adopters pay extra. As long as there are people around who think they need the newest eqiupment the moment it is announced, so long companies will be able to charge them extra. The 6D will go as low as 1600$ within 2 years, which is a fair price for such a camera.

And no, Canon has not really a problem with their sensors, at least not among people who take pictures, instead of reading dxomark, and comparing the numbers as if they were Horsepower and 1/4mile times.
Shoot at ISO 100 and the D800 will give you the possibility to take details out of underexposed parts because of its high dynamic range, but shoot in low light, and the 5D III will give pictures with much less noise. You decide what you prefer, and what your needs are.

True, Canon lost its advantage it had over Nikon in the sensor department. And Sony makes great sensors (not cameras, so far). But the real looser in this game won't be Canon, it will be Nikon. Sony uses Nikon to help them finance their chip production and development, because alone Sony would be nowhere near Canon volume. But if Sony market share grows, they will not need Nikon any longer...
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: nicku on September 18, 2012, 06:12:35 AM
I will contribute to that wake up call. Once I "upgrade" from my current 7D to FF and need to sell my EF-S glass anyway 10-22, 17-55, 60 Macro I will also sell my EF glass 40/2.8, 50/1.4, 100/2.0, 70-200/2.8 II and take my money elsewhere, if all Canon has to offer is overpriced and underspecced cr*p.
Then good luck and enjoy the grass that is greener on the other side...

The 6D at 2100$, it's still a lot of money, but it is the same as a similiar speced D600. (D600 has more AF-Points, and bigger zone metering, built in flash, dual card slot, while the 6D has WiFi and GPS). But you can be sure, that that price will drop, like the one of the 5D III is starting to do. Early adopters pay extra. As long as there are people around who think they need the newest eqiupment the moment it is announced, so long companies will be able to charge them extra. The 6D will go as low as 1600$ within 2 years, which is a fair price for such a camera.

And no, Canon has not really a problem with their sensors, at least not among people who take pictures, instead of reading dxomark, and comparing the numbers as if they were Horsepower and 1/4mile times.
Shoot at ISO 100 and the D800 will give you the possibility to take details out of underexposed parts because of its high dynamic range, but shoot in low light, and the 5D III will give pictures with much less noise. You decide what you prefer, and what your needs are.

True, Canon lost its advantage it had over Nikon in the sensor department. And Sony makes great sensors (not cameras, so far). But the real looser in this game won't be Canon, it will be Nikon. Sony uses Nikon to help them finance their chip production and development, because alone Sony would be nowhere near Canon volume. But if Sony market share grows, they will not need Nikon any longer...

Little off topic:

Even if Sony will achieve the same build quality, speed, processors as Nikon they will not drop them. The reason is very simple : they must produce sensors for their own cameras... right... So... why not selling a couple thousands/ tens of thousands  more sensors. all companies are interested in profit not market share or loyalty to their costumers.

Who knows what the collaboration agreement between Sony and Nikon says... maybe Nikon will help Sony with technology to produce very good cameras in exchange of world leading FF sensors....
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: JohanCruyff on September 18, 2012, 06:14:53 AM
So, to me, Canon isn't offering as good or as exciting of products as Nikon is at this point..... add to this a $2300 new 24-70(the lens I want the most) and i'm overall unhappy with my choices in Canon. I'm buying a D600 and 24-70 2.8 for around 3800 dollars, instead of a 5DIII(I wouldn't consider the 6D) and 24-70 II for $5200.

Your comparison does not convince me.
5200$ is (a lot) more than 3800$, but I expect that Canon's 24-70 outperforms Nikon's one (and I think that, in many aspects, Canon's 5D3 is better than Nikon's D600).

Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: FunPhotons on September 18, 2012, 07:48:10 AM
What dr croubie said so well in the first reply.

I work for similar kind of company (specialized hardware with custom firmware) in a similar position (old company, established leader). While I'm stuck with Canon because I can't stand Nikon ergonomics and design, I see that they've so well established themselves that they're not really trying anymore. Changes will continue to be incremental, innovation will be low, and they'll be late on releases. What they won't be is sloppy, the released products will perform as expected. This is what happens to these old, established companies. They - really the people working for them - want a nice comfortable job with no surprises, so they'll delay a release instead of releasing something that isn't wrapped up. Basically they don't want any nasty surprises.

Photokina was a non event.

PS. You can spot companies in this position by how much they massage specs on the product line. Because they can't get their act together enough to really innovate, they'll play pricing games, and artfully leave features out of devices in the product line. A young, innovative company will just churn out new, innovative stuff. See a pattern here?
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: RuneL on September 18, 2012, 08:24:08 AM
Oh no. Car analogies...

VW is the rebel of cars and the BMW is the 1D X?

No, just no. A 320D is a piece of S____ compared to say a Golf R: The BMW is slower, less grippy, less fun, not much more practical, worse interior, worse gearbox. The Golf R is a piece of S____ compared to the Renault Mégane RS 265 CUP, the Renualt is a race car, properly set up for track, awesome feeling with the road, awesome sounds, you feel connected to the drive, not disconnected as in the VW Golf R that's a lot more expensive too. And so on.

Car analogies fail, maybe compare the lineup from BMW or something, I don't know, but the other one just doesn't work.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Cannon Man on September 18, 2012, 08:39:13 AM
Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: JohanCruyff on September 18, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont.

+1

If we all were Nikonians, every single day we would wake up and cry "Oh, no! Another night passed, and no (sharp) Nikkor 70-200 F/4 VR has been announced!" and then protest on all the forums on the web.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: UrbanImages on September 18, 2012, 09:29:35 AM
As far as the 6D is concerned, people need to realize that it is not targeted towards the professionals/serious amateurs, but rather those who are looking to break into FF. I for one wouldn't buy it, but I knew and expected this prior to official announcement. I also wouldn't buy a 1Dx, doesn't fit into my needs. For what I shoot, my 5D's (both I and II) and my 7D fit my needs. I will eventually move up to 5D III by the end of the year. I do believe that there is a place for the 6D, it's a direct competitor to the D600 and is targeted as such. I believe that Canon has overstuffed their DSLR's with things such as video, GPS and the like. I learned to shoot on film, I started with a Rebel nearly 20 yrs. ago. I shoot my digitals as I did that camera. Canon surely has a sizable edge in glass. That is the biggest complaint I have found with Nikon shooters, their glass isn't even in the ballpark to Canon. One guy I know has a complete Sigma lineup for glass because he hates Nikon glass. In the end ability, creativity and knowledge of equipment make the photographer. The bodies and glass are just tools to that end. Canon must know what the market demand is, I doubt they would release a camera, putting all that money into R&D and production if they just wanted to throw a camera out there for the sake of it. Only time will tell, when the prototypes and reviews come out, judge then.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Viggo on September 18, 2012, 09:31:22 AM
Let me start by saying I love my canon camera.  For me the frustration is not in the speed of upgrades, it's the out of whack practice of lower end cameras getting features first.

I think the 6D is what was needed, a more affordable entry level FF. What I'm pi$$ed that it comes with built in features (wifi control via smart phone & built in GPS) that are thing that I get to pay +$400 for on my Mrk III, or that are not available.  These were features that I (and many others) wanted 4 years ago, and I kind of expected to be standard at this point in time on DSLRs.  Now it appears I could have saved a lot of money going with this lower end camera to get all the features I wanted (FF, Improved focus, improved ISO, Camera and Movie Mode, Around 20mp, Built in GPS, WiFi control via smart phone).

As I recall, when the 7D came out, it ended up having a few features that the 5D Mrk II did not (but eventually did get).  This is almost the same thing, but these features can't be added in firmware, they have to be purchased for a premium. It's like design and marketing aren't thinking when they come up with features for the users. More like how can we get the most money out of our users wallets?  When it's time for me to get a new camera body in a few years, if Canon is still pulling the same stupid maneuvers, I'll be jump ship.

I'm with you on that one, I was seriously upset when the 7d got the spot-af when the 1d4 didn't get it. And also now that an entrylevel gets interchangeable focusing screens and 5d3 not. Along. With the things you mentioned. I think that the 1d X should have everything all other cameras in the next two year has.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: dstppy on September 18, 2012, 09:40:08 AM
Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)

You can post things like this until you're blue in the face . . . but in the end, you just have to wait out the latest surge.  They tried to rile everyone up at the 5DmkIII launch but no one really bit (except over price).  Once the D600 started getting rumors, they went for another round and we really fell for it.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: AmbientLight on September 18, 2012, 10:04:03 AM
It might be good for someone to start a Canon-hate site, so that in this forum we can get back to discussing photography and away from all those silly troll posts.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: HarryWintergreen on September 18, 2012, 10:06:45 AM
maybe because we are spoilt  ;)
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: robbinzo on September 18, 2012, 10:13:16 AM
I'm an amateur photographer. I have no pretensions about my ability. I am still happy shooting with my 550D. The IQ is fine for my purposes but the AF isn't great.
I'm thinking about upgrading to FF but I will not upgrade to something that has only a slightly better AF system for £1300 more than my current camera. We'll see how good the 6D's AF system is but it doesn't look great.
I don't hate Canon but I feel this "entry level" FF 6D offering is a very poor effort.
I do wonder why Canon don't release a stills only FF camera. It wouldn't directly compete with the 5D mark III because it would not have video function and all the bells and whistles.
Now that would be innovative - build a stills camera.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: AmbientLight on September 18, 2012, 10:19:42 AM
The wish for stills cameras has been posted here quite often, but I don't think that Canon can be persuaded to go back on a feature, which has been such a match-winner for them. Just look at all those 5D Mark II sales, when Nikon had nothing to compete with it. Canon are quite aware now that a good sensor plus a mediocre autofocus system are a match-winning combination. Manual focus is not such a problem. You can still create stunning photos using manual focus. If you want brilliant autofocus capabilities Canon have that as well, but for a different budget. Just think of the 5D Mark III or the 1D X.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Meh on September 18, 2012, 10:20:38 AM
It might be good for someone to start a Canon-hate site, so that in this forum we can get back to discussing photography and away from all those silly troll posts.

Some people want to discuss these things.  If you don't, then it doesn't concern you so don't read or respond in these threads.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: stephan on September 18, 2012, 10:24:39 AM
The 6D launch is kinda like the 60D launch - many whined over the new plastic case and loss of AFMA (the latter I agree on).
If the Image quality of the 6D - especially on High ISO - is comparable to the 5DIII, and Video quality is like the 5DIII in terms of DR,Moiré/Aliasing and Details, it can become the big brother to my 60D as soon as the price drops in about 6 months. I want to go FF, but the 5DIII is way out of my price range, and the Moiré in Video of the 5DII is just too bad for that kind of money. GPS and Wifi are a nice add in for the cost.
The missing headphone jack can hopefully be compensated for by ML using the AV out - just like on the 60D. 


If it delivers on Image/Video-quality and high ISO performance, I am excited about it. That's what the original 5D was about - great sensor in a (relatively) cheap body. This is the successor to the 5D II I have basically been waiting for since 2010.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: K-amps on September 18, 2012, 10:25:16 AM
Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)

The analogy is a bit lacking... the situation is different:

It is about expectation management. Many people switched from Nikon to Canon when the 5D2 was released; they came over to Canon because of a great body/Sensor (Canon already had nice glass); they came because of innovation and someone being revolutionary and taking everyone for a ride with their success.

Once people tasted this success, their expectations of Canon told them that Canon would come up with better products at cheaper prices giving them more great value propositions. Canon may not have exclusively promised this, but they sure as heck implied it with their attitude and behaviour.

What happening now? Canon is getting fat and Lazy, the R&D has slowed, their value proposition is faltering whicle Nikon is not only catching up, but actually giving Canon a hard time in sensors. Canon might be holding up... but many of it's customers feel the humiliation of not being the leader, but the double humiliation of Canon overcharging them too. They are feeling the pinch on both ends... This is why people are pissed off among other reasons... This is how a company can foster or kill loyalty.

Not only are Canon customers feeling Nikon is offering better products, but that Canon is also kicking them in the rear with the pricing.

This is short term; Quarterly based earnings mentality that wil take Canon down in the mid-to long term unless they reverse course.

Even now they can slavage some of it by Pricing the 6D at about $1600-1700 and accepting the fact that they overpriced the 5D3... 2 wrongs, don't make a right. Time to do the right thing... The 6D could be another runaway success with non-pros if it is priced properly.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: robbinzo on September 18, 2012, 10:52:59 AM
"If you want brilliant autofocus capabilities Canon have that as well, but for a different budget. Just think of the 5D Mark III or the 1D X."

I don't want to spend £2650 for a brilliant autofocus system. But for £1800 the 6D should be better. It should at least be on a par with the 7D (which I can get for £800 less than the 6D).
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on September 18, 2012, 10:59:12 AM
The wish for stills cameras has been posted here quite often, but I don't think that Canon can be persuaded to go back on a feature, which has been such a match-winner for them. Just look at all those 5D Mark II sales, when Nikon had nothing to compete with it. Canon are quite aware now that a good sensor plus a mediocre autofocus system are a match-winning combination. Manual focus is not such a problem. You can still create stunning photos using manual focus. If you want brilliant autofocus capabilities Canon have that as well, but for a different budget. Just think of the 5D Mark III or the 1D X.

I really don't get the defense of this camera.  which from reading this reply, its pretty much just pretend this is 2008 and then your awesome!  The d600 is the competition to the 6d...and the mk3 is competing with the d800 --at least those 2 cameras are in the same ballpark with specs, with the differentiation equaling out (d800 has the MP DR advantage, canon has the low light and buffer fps advantage).  Only other thing different is the price, and its kind of a d%%k move on nikons part to undercut and sell at a loss (we don't like it when new photogs come along and steal our clients cause they undercut our rates...)..

SO stop comparing the d600 to the mk3 (mk3 wins that battle all over the place anyhow)..  The battle is now d600 vs 6d ----and the appropriate car analogy would be more like toyota corolla vs honda civic (not VW to BMW - thats more like comparing a dslr to a MF with digital back).

Without anger, you can't line up the specs and say they are even - but the price is even.  Do we know the inside stories?  Nikon is kind of obviously making a big move to outplay canon, but at what cost?  Maybe this is in the realm of nikon making moves that aide them in the short term but hurt them long term?  Canon isn't going anywhere and with the recent round of releases they now have 2-3 years to regain their footing --- maybe that will be enough time for canon to find a workaround to produce an exmor like sensor that doesn't infringe on sony patents?  Or, maybe sony pulls the plug on nikon?  Or, maybe the time period of the exchange ends and sony will then sell chips to canon?  One thing is clear ---sony is in this to make money --- not because they have some love affair with nikon, nikon just made a deal with them that benefited sony - which is why I believe that nikon is MSRP'ing their latest releases at a loss that brings more people to their system and once there the hope is they will stay!

But ---- as the wind changes direction, how many that sell their canon gear will be selling their nikon gear in 2-3 years?  Really, the only sensible option is to pick a camp and stay with it, or, don't lock yourself into one system - build a gear bag with both systems.   

Either way --defending this 6d with its current competition is a kin to putting your head in the sand and pretending it's 2008.  Sure, the 6d beats the d700 on many levels just as the 5d2 did, but when stacked against 2012/13 competition - its really hard to make a valid defense. 
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: AmbientLight on September 18, 2012, 11:13:17 AM
Defense of the 6D is not even my point.

Canon observed a market niche identified with the 5D Mark II and now they try to sell into this niche again with a newer model. This may be frustrating for many, but it should not be surprising. I definitely won't buy this camera, but there may be those, who want to do this.

As for all the agitation about specs comparison, that leads to nothing.

There is an old saying in sales that features don't sell. This applies as long as there is no tangible benefit like you can do things with one camera, which you can't with another and then you must have this one. In this mid-market entry-level full-frame segment I don't expect there will be any measurement of success except for sales totals, but we will have to wait a while for the dust to settle down on this one.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on September 18, 2012, 01:23:43 PM
Defense of the 6D is not even my point.

Canon observed a market niche identified with the 5D Mark II and now they try to sell into this niche again with a newer model. This may be frustrating for many, but it should not be surprising. I definitely won't buy this camera, but there may be those, who want to do this.

As for all the agitation about specs comparison, that leads to nothing.

There is an old saying in sales that features don't sell. This applies as long as there is no tangible benefit like you can do things with one camera, which you can't with another and then you must have this one. In this mid-market entry-level full-frame segment I don't expect there will be any measurement of success except for sales totals, but we will have to wait a while for the dust to settle down on this one.

thats the thing with the 6d though ...its seems to be jack of a few trades and master of none.  Above and beyond anger at this, there is confusion ---this camera almost hits the mid-entry FF,  but not quite, while alos touching on the pro market, but not quite.  So, you have the non-educated I don't know the difference between FF and crop sensor, i just want something with nice presets that i can shoot my kids with (at $2K, this is most likely out of their reach, they will mostly likely buy a rebel).  The educated enthusiasts who have been using canon gear and made compromises (bought EF-S glass because the cost of EF glass is high and EF glass doesn't work as amazingly well on crop), they probably won't opt for this because at $2k the cost of transition is too big, especially when the feature set is possibly a step down from what you were on (60d and 7d users).  Then there are emerging pro's, and semi-pros that know a bit more than the other 2 categories.  These are people looking to go from crop to FF, or, to pick up a good FF as a backup/secondary body.  I am in this category and like I said in other threads ---unless this new sensor can perform some magic or the AF is better than advertised ---all this 6d does is make me ponder buying a second 5d3 or a used 1d4.

So tell me, just which of these groups is the 6d targeted towards? 

IMO - it should have been a full plastic body, a true rebel FF at $1500 (yes, call it the 70d!) - or - stepped up to have a reasonable AF system like the 7d's (If the 6d had a decent AF system I doubt there'd be that much anger about it.  Add in a 21 point AF with a bunch of cross points and that evens the scales quite a bit).

They could have done both --- plastic FF with old af --- call it a rebel at $1500...then have a midway FF in the 2k-2.5k area with metal body and more robust AF (hell, give it the mk3 sensor then dumb down the servo mode and limit the fps - i would buy that at 2.5k).  That may be overkill, but think about it ---people do draw these lines in the sand of what they will spend.  It's generall at the even marks of $1000, 2000, 3000.

most are saying they would consider the 6d if it were under 2k.  Most say they want the mk3 bad but won't do it above 3k.  Lines in the sand.  Now think of who these people drawing these lines are --- most wedding photographers have no issues buying a mk3 -- that leaves pro studio, landscape, and wildlife togs, then enthusiasts and hobbyists.  The pro segments won't buy the mk3 because it offers no real upgrade in IQ over value for what they do (most of them at least) - which is reasonable.  Hobbyists and enthusiasts are left then, and they are the hardest segment to market to because they don't have measurable ways to justify the purchase.  If you are making money with photography, the equations are simple, does your income justify the purchase?  And can that purchase potentially earn you more than you made before?  Not as easy for the latter 2 groups.  And oddly, those are generallythe 2 groups that consistently want less for more, and the ones most likely to jump ship because they don't use or see the value in things like CPS (which is still much nicer than nikons support).  It seems to me like the 6d is a failed attempt to cater to the latter 2 groups, who will be more swayed by what the camera's look like on paper.  For the former groups ---i see lots of people in the pro/semipro/emerging pro category who were waiting on the 6d instead buying a refurb 1dsiii, used 1d4's, used/new/refurb 5d2's, and yes, 5d3's. 
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: AmbientLight on September 18, 2012, 01:55:14 PM
With your last sentence you have actually delivered an argumentation for why the new 6D may be designed as it is: Canon wouldn't like existing bodies to severely drop in price/lose value, so as not to offend existing professional customers. For people knowledgeable enough and interested in professional gear they can either go for older professional models or for a 5D Mark III or 1D X (if funds  permit). The 6D appears to target those wanting to upgrade to ff keeping their EF lenses without being overwhelmed by a more complex AF system.

The additional new features are provided to make the product appear somewhat innovative, although in essence it is not. It appears designed to fill a niche without using up too many development resources, which for a vendor is an important consideration. It is far more effective for Canon to concentrate development resources on other, more important product development. An entry-level full-frame camera certainly does not qualify for that, a new 1-series or something similar certainly would qualify.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Axilrod on September 18, 2012, 03:10:49 PM
This car analogy is not a good one OP. Cars are completely different.

I'm pretty sure he was referring to people complaining about pricing, you took it the wrong way.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Axilrod on September 18, 2012, 03:11:26 PM
Oh no. Car analogies...

VW is the rebel of cars and the BMW is the 1D X?

No, just no. A 320D is a piece of S___ compared to say a Golf R: The BMW is slower, less grippy, less fun, not much more practical, worse interior, worse gearbox. The Golf R is a piece of S___ compared to the Renault Mégane RS 265 CUP, the Renualt is a race car, properly set up for track, awesome feeling with the road, awesome sounds, you feel connected to the drive, not disconnected as in the VW Golf R that's a lot more expensive too. And so on.

Car analogies fail, maybe compare the lineup from BMW or something, I don't know, but the other one just doesn't work.

He was talking about people complaining about pricing, not specs or qualities of the camera. 
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Axilrod on September 18, 2012, 03:18:21 PM
I will agree that Canon's recent products seem to be a bit lacking in areas.  C100 and 5D3 don't have 1080p60, but Sony's $600 A57 does.  5D3 doesn't have uncompressed HDMI, but the Panasonic GH3 does as does the D600.  The 6D seems to follow this trend of being a few features short of everyone being happy with them. 

Some people seem to have the expectation that every single product they release should be "groundbreaking," but I just don't think that's always possible.  People expected the same "wow factor" from the 5D3 as the 5D2, but prior to the 5DII no one (in the video world anyways) had seen crazy shallow DOF on a camera that cheap.  So to go from these tiny camcorder sensors to a FF sensor that's literally 10x-15x bigger is a tremendous jump in quality/low-light capability/DOF.  For Canon to have gotten the same reaction from the 5D3 it would needed to have like an 8K sensor and shoot 1000fps@1080p.  The 5D2 was just a very hard act to follow. 

Honestly if they had just put uncompressed HDMI on the 5D3 I would be completely happy, but I've been seriously considering a D800 recently, the footage from it on an external recorder looks incredible. 
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: CowGummy on September 18, 2012, 07:44:50 PM
Hi all!

Op here, I posted the opening statement last night whilst once again suffering from insomnia. I've just spent the last 45 minutes reading each and every reply here (sorry, not a very fast reader) and am really grateful for peoples thoughts on this.
I get that some of you don't like the car analogy. Fair enough - might not work for everyone and that's ay okay imho. Axilrod got it right mind you, I was referring to pricing, not specs -because that would be mental. Whoever was comparing the BMW 320D to the Golf R - I do take your point, but I also think your argument is flawed. You're comparing one of the lowest spec 3 series diesels to the top of the line Golf. If you took top models from both you'd be more likely looking at Golf R vs. M3. I know where my money would be... Although I digress heavily at this point...

There seems to be a fair bit of chatter about Canon being innovative and pushing the envelope in the last few years until let's say, uh, 12 months ago. Do we think Nikon shooters have been muttering stuff like we are for the last decade only to come up top Me_Me_Me now? Maybe. I've always been a firm believer in 'what goes up, must come down'. And I truly feel the tables will turn again, and again, and again...

Someone else said I was being too reasonable. Quite possibly - my wife often says the same. The bottom line for me is that right now, the Canon line-up (in my own humble opinion) is looking so much better than it did 12 months ago when I bought my 5DII, and back then these forums were overall extremely positive. Maybe it's the loss of Karma that's turned things slightly. Although I will admit I hated the whole Karma thing... And now, 12 months on, we have a lot more being offered and far less people are happy. What gives? Someone else mentioned photographers/consumers expectations and I do think this is a really valid point. We're so used to expecting the next best (sorry, better) thing every 6-12 months these days. Look at smartphones, tablets etc... Maybe it's a sign of me growing old (or up? I'm 32 by the way, have been shooting for 15 years), but these things are moving so fast now, it's just weird how quickly people turn on what was 'awesome' not too long ago.

Anyways, I genuinely respect ALL of your views and am now going to have a fag (that's a cigarette to those who are unfamiliar with brit terminology) and check out todays studio session, shot with my brilliant Canon camera, about 350 photos to go through - love it. Have a great night all and can't wait to see if this develops any further.

Cheers,
Steve

PS: Can't remember the exact quote of that video link, but the sentiment of 'everything is perfect, and no-one is happy might have to be new signature for my work email. Genius - thanks!
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: cliffwang on September 18, 2012, 08:46:26 PM
This post is not intended to start a war on this forum, but I just wanted to voice my support for Canon at this point in time. Reading through recent forum posts on here, I get the impression that most people have gotten really fed up with the company and their products... I for one can't quite understand why? Call me a fanboy (whatever, I've also shot Nikon dslr, and going back a few years...ahem decades... Minoltas and Pentax 35mm slrs), but the sheer choice right now is brilliant if you ask me. Last year I was in the position of wanting to upgrade to Full Frame, and at the time there was literally only one (I will stand corrected on this - please do let me know) body in the canon lineup that I could consider for FF: The 5DII, which is what I bought. I've been very, very happy with my purchase, but alas, if Iwas making the jump right now, like a lot of people seem to be, I would have the choice of 4 bodies: 1DX, 6D, 5DII or 5DIII - seems to me like a great time to be entering the canon fullframe arena!?

I'm interested to hear why people are becoming more and more unhappy with canon products? If it's the price, in my opinion this doesn't really count... I know I'm gonna take some flack for this, but you get what you pay for and if you can;t afford it, either save your money or look elsewhere. I would like to drive a BMW M5, but I can't afford it. Instead I drive a humble VW golf. Doesn't stop me lusting after the M5, but I wouldn't start complaining to BMW about the price, and demand it drops down to VW pricing. It's simply out of my reach at this point. Tough totty.

As far as I can see it's a great time to be doing photography and canon is still the first port of call for me. My 5DII still takes awesome shots and I intend to keep it for another 5 years, much like my 400D before that.

Finally someone posted something decent! You read my thoughts. No matter how positive the thread starts it always turns to hating canon. Most of the time the prices tick people off.
I don't usually read past the second page because it is just canon hate on a canon forum.

I'm just happy there is a great selection of lenses and camera bodies out there that let me do exactly what i need to do.

Please switch to nikon already if you don't like any cameras that canon makes or stop complaining.

Everyone has the right to complain whatever that want to complain.  Have you really tried to understand why many Canon users hate Canon now?  By the way, you have no right to ask people stop complaining.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: krjc on September 18, 2012, 08:59:39 PM
Quote from a person commenting on the original post.

"Everyone has the right to complain whatever that want to complain.  Have you really tried to understand why many Canon users hate Canon now?  By the way, you have no right to ask people stop complaining."

I would contend that you have no right to ask the original poster to not ask people to stop complaining!
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: Ricku on September 18, 2012, 09:58:10 PM
It might be good for someone to start a Canon-hate site, so that in this forum we can get back to discussing photography and away from all those silly troll posts.

Some people want to discuss these things.  If you don't, then it doesn't concern you so don't read or respond in these threads.
But his emotional investment into his camera brand, wont allow him to ignore the discussion.

If someone criticizes Canon's shortcomings, he and the other fanboys will be there with swords drawn! (http://www.deviloid.net/jscripts3.3.9/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/img/smiley-happy2.gif)
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: cliffwang on September 19, 2012, 01:37:00 AM
Quote from a person commenting on the original post.

"Everyone has the right to complain whatever that want to complain.  Have you really tried to understand why many Canon users hate Canon now?  By the way, you have no right to ask people stop complaining."

I would contend that you have no right to ask the original poster to not ask people to stop complaining!

I could complain whatever I want.  Why do some fanboys think CR is only for them?  If people say something bad for Canon, they will just against those people with no sense.  Grow up.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: dizeaz on September 19, 2012, 03:32:42 AM
People who are not happy with Canon's or Nikon's offerings can get their customized cameras from Leica  ;)
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: K-amps on September 19, 2012, 10:05:56 AM
People who are not happy with Canon's or Nikon's offerings can get their customized cameras from Leica  ;)

They probably don't live mortgage free with kids education paid up, so maybe they should just suck up and live with whatever corporations dish out without providing needed feedback, right? 
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: molnarcs on September 19, 2012, 12:50:06 PM
Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)

Yes, lots of hand wringing and cussing on Nikonrumors, same as here.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: cliffwang on September 19, 2012, 01:45:04 PM
Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)

Yes, lots of hand wringing and cussing on Nikonrumors, same as here.

I don't know that.  However, I would think Nikon users should have a lot of complain for their high ISO and FPS on D800.
If you like the Canon/Nikon, you should expect they make better products for you.  If they cannot, you should be disappointed.  Actually that's weird for me if people take whatever Canon/Nikon provide to you without any complain.
Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: K-amps on September 19, 2012, 04:35:07 PM
Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)

Yes, lots of hand wringing and cussing on Nikonrumors, same as here.

I don't know that.  However, I would think Nikon users should have a lot of complain for their high ISO and FPS on D800.
If you like the Canon/Nikon, you should expect they make better products for you.  If they cannot, you should be disappointed.  Actually that's weird for me if people take whatever Canon/Nikon provide to you without any complain.

+1:

About 30 years ago when I was doing my MBA, The Macro Economics professor asked us, Define "Development"... we gave a bunch of rubbish answers and then he said,

"Questioning the status Quo"..

If people don't question/ complain... things don't progress as well....

Title: Re: Loving Canon right now.
Post by: RuneL on September 19, 2012, 10:08:25 PM
Does anyone know if the folks at nikon rumors hate nikon so much as people hate canon here?
For what i've seen and heard they dont. We should grow up.

Who here has thought about talking to their mothers about all the hate you have about canon? I'm sure she could help somehow. (ps. I'm not trying to troll anyone, just saying)

Yes, lots of hand wringing and cussing on Nikonrumors, same as here.

I don't know that.  However, I would think Nikon users should have a lot of complain for their high ISO and FPS on D800.
If you like the Canon/Nikon, you should expect they make better products for you.  If they cannot, you should be disappointed.  Actually that's weird for me if people take whatever Canon/Nikon provide to you without any complain.

+1:

About 30 years ago when I was doing my MBA, The Macro Economics professor asked us, Define "Development"... we gave a bunch of rubbish answers and then he said,

"Questioning the status Quo"..

If people don't question/ complain... things don't progress as well....

Yes, well, the only way to question/complain is with your wallet.