canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon-F1 on September 25, 2012, 06:50:57 PM

Title: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 25, 2012, 06:50:57 PM
with all the complains about canons 6D autofocus why is no website, that cares about canon in one way or the other, writing an open letter to canon... demanding a statement?

i mean.... dpreview wrote it´s a rather dissapointing camera and i have yet to read a preview that is not puzzled by the low-tech AF.

if we complain here in a forum .. canon cares a sh*t.

but if a popular and frequented website writes something and is not afraid to tell the truth... maybe canon will take notice and feel obligated to react?

or maybe it´s to late here and im just bored and tired.....
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 25, 2012, 06:57:28 PM
or maybe it´s to late here and im just bored and tired.....

Bingo.  :P
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 25, 2012, 07:00:05 PM
or maybe it´s to late here and im just bored and tired.....

Bingo.  :P

well yeah we know you like to complain in dark corners, quietly about the 6D.. but that will for sure change nothing. ;)


Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Gothmoth on September 25, 2012, 07:28:41 PM
to be honest, i like to see a website raise uncomfortable questions.

but today it´s all nice "blahblah".

when a website is lucky enough to get an interview, it looks like they do everthing to keep the manager comfortable.

the result is an interview that is nothing more then boring PR.
cheap advertising for the companys.

when have you read an interview with a canon manager where the interviewer asked question you would ask?
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 25, 2012, 07:29:21 PM
Lol.  Since I use a 1D X and love it, I honestly couldn't care less if the 6D is a rebadged 20D or a 5DIII for hundreds less...
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 25, 2012, 07:33:20 PM
Lol.  Since I use a 1D X and love it, I honestly couldn't care less if the 6D is a rebadged 20D or a 5DIII for hundreds less...


nevertheless


Quote from: neuroanatomist
And a happy 0th birthday to the ugly, red-headed stepchild of the FF family, aka the 6D

Only one cross-type sensor, and that one not even a dual cross.

Now that the 60D's 9 cross-type AF with center f/2.8 dual cross has trickled down to the T4i/650D, IMO the Rebel line has a better AF system than the 6D.

Weak. Very weak.
.....

Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: RuneL on September 25, 2012, 07:37:38 PM
To put it bluntly.

Who really gives a S____. There are more pressing issues in this world you should be penning angry and frustrated letters about. So I can't really do anything than shrug and laugh this off as utter bloody madness.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 25, 2012, 07:44:03 PM
To put it bluntly.

Who really gives a S___.


i guess those complaining here in this forum?

Quote
There are more pressing issues in this world you should be penning angry and frustrated letters about. So I can't really do anything than shrug and laugh this off as utter bloody madness.

all im saying is, it will sure make more sense then complaining in this forum.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 25, 2012, 07:52:11 PM
Lol.  Since I use a 1D X and love it, I honestly couldn't care less if the 6D is a rebadged 20D or a 5DIII for hundreds less...


nevertheless


Quote from: neuroanatomist
And a happy 0th birthday to the ugly, red-headed stepchild of the FF family, aka the 6D

Only one cross-type sensor, and that one not even a dual cross.

Now that the 60D's 9 cross-type AF with center f/2.8 dual cross has trickled down to the T4i/650D, IMO the Rebel line has a better AF system than the 6D.

Weak. Very weak.
.....


Touché, Sir.  :)
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Zlatko on September 25, 2012, 07:58:20 PM
with all the complains about canons 6D autofocus why is no website, that cares about canon in one way or the other, writing an open letter to canon... demanding a statement?

i mean.... dpreview wrote it´s a rather dissapointing camera and i have yet to read a preview that is not puzzled by the low-tech AF.

if we complain here in a forum .. canon cares a sh*t.

but if a popular and frequented website writes something and is not afraid to tell the truth... maybe canon will take notice and feel obligated to react?

or maybe it´s to late here and im just bored and tired.....
The 6D is supposed to excel at low-light autofocus.  If you don't need that, then it probably wasn't built for you but rather for users who need that.  If you have different needs for AF, Canon offers the 5D3 and 1DX.  If none of those meet your needs, there are Nikon and Sony and others.  Why complain that Canon isn't making the exact camera you want at the price you want at the time that you want it?  No manufacturer can satisfy everyone.  If Canon builds the exact camera that you want, then other potential buyers can rightfully "demand a statement" as to why Canon didn't build the camera that they wanted at the price that they wanted at the time that they wanted it.  There would be no end to such statements.  Besides, who has tested the 6D's AF and found it lacking?  People are complaining before they can even try the camera.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: RuneL on September 25, 2012, 07:59:31 PM
Demanding a statement about what, exactly? That Sony right now produces some bloody good sensors and have some patents that Canon are having a hard time working around? That Nikon right now are better in some areas?
That Canon cameras are so bad right now that you can't make any money compared to Nikon shooters? That Canons pricing is wrong compared to Nikons?

We are all free to choose any manufacturer we want.

I'm not a Canon fan or anything, but this is just insane. People are doing awesome things with old consumer cameras.

If you are saying people should cram their complaining, yeah, then I agree completely.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: dr croubie on September 25, 2012, 08:10:45 PM
Well, if you know anyone at Luminous Landscape, they could possibly help you out, they've just done an Open Letter to Sigma (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_dp1_merrill.shtml) (down the bottom) about the lack of RAW-support for their Foveon sensors (and apparently their own software is horrid).
I'm not sure how much coverage they give to Canon stuff though, there's a few reviews of older equipment, but nothing recent (seeing as Canon doesn't exactly have a 'Landscape' camera, it's all events and sports lately), LL does mostly MF bodies and the occasional Street.

Of course, even if they do write open letter, there's also the point that whether it acutally amounts to anything is another thing entirely...
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: bdunbar79 on September 25, 2012, 08:12:35 PM
I honestly think the 6D will be a very good FF camera.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: pz-photography on September 25, 2012, 08:29:34 PM
I tried the AF of the 6D last tuesday @ photokina in cologne as one of the very first people. I'm sick of all the complaning about the AF system. The only thing that is not as good as my 5D III is the spread of AF points, they are more in the center of the frame than the ones in the D600, too. But in terms of speed? Seriously, I didn't find any difference in focussing speed with the center AF point compared to my 5D. It was accurate and really fast! there is not that much light at the canon booth and they had not the fastest lens on it (24-105 4.0) and even in that conditions it was totally accurate and fast while focussing pretty dark and structureless targets, also with the other AF points. I think we can believe canon that it can focus in half as much light as the 5D III. I tried the AF for 20 minutes and was pretty impressed. It's a completely diffrent system then the 5D II or 60D, so it doesn't matter if its 1 cross/dualcross/wtfcrosspoint or 10 or 100. It works absolutely fine! So STOP COMPLANING until you had the camera in your hands, took it into dark environment and experienced something completely diffrent!
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 25, 2012, 09:23:54 PM
It was accurate and really fast! there is not that much light at the canon booth and they had not the fastest lens on it (24-105 4.0) and even in that conditions it was totally accurate...  It's a completely diffrent system then the 5D II or 60D, so it doesn't matter if its 1 cross/dualcross/wtfcrosspoint or 10 or 100. It works absolutely fine! So STOP COMPLANING until you had the camera in your hands, took it into dark environment and experienced something completely diffrent!

What looks spot on when reviewing on the LCD is often OOF when reviewing on a monitor during post.  'Totally accurate' with the deep DoF of an f/4 lens is not the same as totally accurate with the razor-thin DoF of an f/1.2 lens and a close subject.  How was the AI Servo tracking performance?

I'm not complaining, just suggesting that the jury is still out, and 20 minutes with a camera at a trade show does is not sufficient for a thorough test.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: 7enderbender on September 25, 2012, 09:36:07 PM
Indeed, Canon will not care about some letter from a bunch of camera gear geeks like all of us here or elsewhere. Vote with you feet. I personally doubt that the 6D will sell very well. But I'm sure Canon has done their market research and have their reasons to believe that it is a good model for them to release as it is. Maybe it's just there to drive the sales of other models. I really don't know. There is not enough detail in their financial statements to fully figure it out - or at least I couldn't the last time I looked at their data  -yes, I'm really geekish enough to actually do such a thing; I do, however, draw the line at specialized industry market research reports that you can buy for big chunks of money...

Canon (and very few others) has a fascinating business model in a very difficult environment that has dramatically changed over the last decade and a half. They have done many many things right and at the right time. The fact that they still exist is somewhat of a miracle and attests to the fact that their marketing folks are as savvy as their developers at least.

By the way: the next industry changing wave of disruptive innovation is well underway. And it may be more difficult for Canon and Nikon then the digital revolution. With the capabilities of iPhones and such the market for P&S cameras and even entry level DSLRs may shrink. That's a problem because for these companies that's where the money is - not counting Canon's "professional" (non-camera related) business line or Nikon's medical devices, etc.

So instead of whining and complaining about this, that and the other we should be glad that we still have options. I could see a future where professional grade cameras might be very expensive items for a small market segment. Think Leica's business model. This kind of stuff has happened in other sectors. I'm thinking of professional audio equipment for instance. While a lot of things have become digital and dirt cheap - and surprisingly good, other high grade pieces of gear have become very very expensive for those who need it or think they need it. Or try finding a real watch maker these days. Mechanical watches have become a pure luxury item and the handful of people who can service them charge an arm and a leg.

If we are moving into a direction where large(r) format SLRs or beyond become considered obsolete by the vast majority of users you are going to end up paying dearly to the few specialized manufactures who still make this for you.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: verysimplejason on September 25, 2012, 09:44:43 PM
I feel there's no need for an open letter.  Sales performance alone will be enough for Canon to finally listen.  So I love the more negative comments Canon receives, the more a lot of people will buy Nikon.  When that happens, maybe Canon will finally listen.  Besides, I think Canon marketing people are always listening to all those whinings from Canon users.  It's one of their responsibilities after all.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: andy on September 25, 2012, 10:37:17 PM
This is my first post here at Canon Rumours.  Don't laugh... yesterday I ordered a 6D with the 24-105L lens.  I am promised delivery in December.  I currently have a T1i and four canon lens (two L's and soon three).  Over the past three years I have taken quite a few photos and gradually become more interested in and able to produce better photographs.  I have read quite extensively which has helped my photos quality progress and I have been looking at getting a better camera for months.  I like the Canon system and would rather not have to learn a second one.  Not being a pro, and not wanting to be, I am looking for a camera that will allow me to be more creative and get the shots I envision.  I want to explore nature videos and night and landscape photography, although most of my current photos are of people.  I decided on the 6D since I expect it will be at least as good as the 5d mark ii and since it is new it should serve me well for a number of years.  Some of the features that convinced me to go for this camera were the built in lens correction using downloadable lens profiles (I have a 24mm 1.4II that really needs a better camera), the focal adjustment, the wifi, the full frame sensor (I like that it has a bigger pixel than the 5d mark iii even if fewer).  None of the lack of features that people have been complaining about on the site seemed like deal-breakers to me.  Since I am still collecting lens and trying many different types of photography I am not set on buying the "ultimate" camera at this time.  By not buying the 5D mark iii I am able to buy a camera and another lens.  For me, the 6D suits me more than the other offerings out there at this time and I am so excited.  I can't wait for December.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: bdunbar79 on September 25, 2012, 10:41:35 PM
This is my first post here at Canon Rumours.  Don't laugh... yesterday I ordered a 6D with the 24-105L lens.  I am promised delivery in December.  I currently have a T1i and four canon lens (two L's and soon three).  Over the past three years I have taken quite a few photos and gradually become more interested in and able to produce better photographs.  I have read quite extensively which has helped my photos quality progress and I have been looking at getting a better camera for months.  I like the Canon system and would rather not have to learn a second one.  Not being a pro, and not wanting to be, I am looking for a camera that will allow me to be more creative and get the shots I envision.  I want to explore nature videos and night and landscape photography, although most of my current photos are of people.  I decided on the 6D since I expect it will be at least as good as the 5d mark ii and since it is new it should serve me well for a number of years.  Some of the features that convinced me to go for this camera were the built in lens correction using downloadable lens profiles (I have a 24mm 1.4II that really needs a better camera), the focal adjustment, the wifi, the full frame sensor (I like that it has a bigger pixel than the 5d mark iii even if fewer).  None of the lack of features that people have been complaining about on the site seemed like deal-breakers to me.  Since I am still collecting lens and trying many different types of photography I am not set on buying the "ultimate" camera at this time.  By not buying the 5D mark iii I am able to buy a camera and another lens.  For me, the 6D suits me more than the other offerings out there at this time and I am so excited.  I can't wait for December.

Congratulations on your purchase!  The 6D will certainly offer at least as much or more in regards to IQ as the 5D Mark II and if anything, possibly better AF performance in low light.  Enjoy it and I hope you don't have to wait too long to get it!
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: distant.star on September 25, 2012, 10:44:07 PM

.
"Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations."
-George Orwell

I have seen no journalism in the photography equipment field. The nearest we have to journalism is Roger at Lens Rentals, and that's a sad situation for consumers.

to be honest, i like to see a website raise uncomfortable questions.

but today it´s all nice "blahblah".

when a website is lucky enough to get an interview, it looks like they do everthing to keep the manager comfortable.

the result is an interview that is nothing more then boring PR.
cheap advertising for the companys.

when have you read an interview with a canon manager where the interviewer asked question you would ask?
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on September 25, 2012, 11:53:51 PM
with all the complains about canons 6D autofocus why is no website, that cares about canon in one way or the other, writing an open letter to canon... demanding a statement?

i mean.... dpreview wrote it´s a rather dissapointing camera and i have yet to read a preview that is not puzzled by the low-tech AF.

if we complain here in a forum .. canon cares a sh*t.

but if a popular and frequented website writes something and is not afraid to tell the truth... maybe canon will take notice and feel obligated to react?

or maybe it´s to late here and im just bored and tired.....
The 6D is supposed to excel at low-light autofocus.  If you don't need that, then it probably wasn't built for you but rather for users who need that.  If you have different needs for AF, Canon offers the 5D3 and 1DX.  If none of those meet your needs, there are Nikon and Sony and others.  Why complain that Canon isn't making the exact camera you want at the price you want at the time that you want it?  No manufacturer can satisfy everyone.  If Canon builds the exact camera that you want, then other potential buyers can rightfully "demand a statement" as to why Canon didn't build the camera that they wanted at the price that they wanted at the time that they wanted it.  There would be no end to such statements.  Besides, who has tested the 6D's AF and found it lacking?  People are complaining before they can even try the camera.




You can't be serious?!
"Excel at Low Light performance"?
You actually believe that marketing bull***t?
Have you read what else Canon has to say about the 6D on their website?
They actually say stuff like, "with continuous shooting up to 4.5fps, you are ready to capture fast action".
That line was actually taken from their description:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_6d (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_6d)
Unless "fast action" is a Seniors' Walk-a-Thon, the 6D is not ready to capture jack.


My point is the talk about "excelling at Low Light performance" is most likely equally fabricated marketing hype.


And as far as the guy complaining about it, he is well within his right to do so if he is to plunck down his money for one. It always amazes me how people run to Canon's (or any other major company's) rescue when others complain about their subpar efforts. The guy has every right to complain about the 6D because in this day and age, it is a crap effort from a company that should know better. And as long as people just sit their and say nothing, Canon will continue to put out subpar equipment at overflated prices backed overhyped marketing. Every Canon camera put out this year was good but could have been a hell of a lot better for what they are charging. But the 6D is just plain crap. Period.





Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: RC on September 25, 2012, 11:55:22 PM
Indeed, Canon will not care about some letter from a bunch of camera gear geeks like all of us here or elsewhere. Vote with you feet. I personally doubt that the 6D will sell very well. But I'm sure Canon has done their market research and have their reasons to believe that it is a good model for them to release as it is....
I don't give Canon's marketing as much credit as you do.   I believe the 6D wouldn't even exist if the D600 didn't exist.  My belief is Canon released what they could to salvage/maintain market share from the D600.  I just don't see that this 6D was designed and spec'd with Canon's customers in mind. 
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Peter Hill on September 25, 2012, 11:56:37 PM
Last month I published an Open Letter to Canon Australia at http://www.redbubble.com/people/peterh111/journal/9263512-an-open-letter-to-canon-australia (http://www.redbubble.com/people/peterh111/journal/9263512-an-open-letter-to-canon-australia) and put a link on their FB page. It wasn't about the 6D (you get what you pay for). It was about the fact that their website does not disclose any RRPs, that their arguments for not honouring Canon USA warranties (or Japan or UK or anywhere but Oz) were specious, that they won't sell much through their on-line store if they don't stock it with anything, and that it sucked big time that they did not offer any rebates, unlike Canon USA. Whilst I garnered much support and I felt much better for getting my gripe off my chest, it was a futile exercise.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: EOBeav on September 26, 2012, 12:30:21 AM
I honestly think the 6D will be a very good FF camera.
A very good xD FF camera, or a very good xxxD FF camera? To me, it just looks like they've Rebelized the xD line.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Zlatko on September 26, 2012, 12:42:01 AM
with all the complains about canons 6D autofocus why is no website, that cares about canon in one way or the other, writing an open letter to canon... demanding a statement?

i mean.... dpreview wrote it´s a rather dissapointing camera and i have yet to read a preview that is not puzzled by the low-tech AF.

if we complain here in a forum .. canon cares a sh*t.

but if a popular and frequented website writes something and is not afraid to tell the truth... maybe canon will take notice and feel obligated to react?

or maybe it´s to late here and im just bored and tired.....
The 6D is supposed to excel at low-light autofocus.  If you don't need that, then it probably wasn't built for you but rather for users who need that.  If you have different needs for AF, Canon offers the 5D3 and 1DX.  If none of those meet your needs, there are Nikon and Sony and others.  Why complain that Canon isn't making the exact camera you want at the price you want at the time that you want it?  No manufacturer can satisfy everyone.  If Canon builds the exact camera that you want, then other potential buyers can rightfully "demand a statement" as to why Canon didn't build the camera that they wanted at the price that they wanted at the time that they wanted it.  There would be no end to such statements.  Besides, who has tested the 6D's AF and found it lacking?  People are complaining before they can even try the camera.
You can't be serious?!
"Excel at Low Light performance"?
You actually believe that marketing bull***t?
Have you read what else Canon has to say about the 6D on their website?
They actually say stuff like, "with continuous shooting up to 4.5fps, you are ready to capture fast action".
That line was actually taken from their description:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_6d (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_6d)
Unless "fast action" is a Seniors' Walk-a-Thon, the 6D is not ready to capture jack.

My point is the talk about "excelling at Low Light performance" is most likely equally fabricated marketing hype.

And as far as the guy complaining about it, he is well within his right to do so if he is to plunck down his money for one. It always amazes me how people run to Canon's (or any other major company's) rescue when others complain about their subpar efforts. The guy has every right to complain about the 6D because in this day and age, it is a crap effort from a company that should know better. And as long as people just sit their and say nothing, Canon will continue to put out subpar equipment at overflated prices backed overhyped marketing. Every Canon camera put out this year was good but could have been a hell of a lot better for what they are charging. But the 6D is just plain crap. Period.
Wow ... what an ultra-cynical point of view!  You haven't even tried the camera and you're calling it "crap" and worse.  Canon has released an ultra-low-light autofocus spec for the 6D and there is no reason to disbelieve it.  Why would you disbelieve it -- other than having an ultra-cynical point of view?

And why don't you wait to try it before slamming the camera and the company that makes it?  Oh yes, ... that would require just an ounce of fairness, which you can't seem to muster.

Of course, the 6D isn't going to please everybody.  No camera can.  If multi-cross-type autofocus is someone's priority, Canon offers it!  You just have to pay for it.  They're not obligated to put every feature they make in every camera they make.

Why do people feel entitled to the exact camera that they personally envision at the price that they want to pay?  The fact that a camera does not meet your personal photographic needs at this moment does not mean it is "sub-par".  Can you just imagine that it might be very well designed to meet someone else's photographic priorities, perhaps someone with a different photographic style or different subject matter?  And if another company offers you the camera you need, then by all means buy it!
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Tayvin on September 26, 2012, 01:01:41 AM
I think your time would be better spent building your own "Perfect Camera".  I'm not trying to be rude, but do you read the comments on these types of sites?  Half the people blogging are angry at everything and I don't think it has anything to do with Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc...  The perfect camera body is not going to fix your life.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: M.ST on September 26, 2012, 01:28:16 AM
I don´t understand why Canon put no CF card slot or a CF and a SD card slot in it.

That´s why a lot of 7D, 5D Mark II and 50D users are not willing to switch to the 6D.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Hillsilly on September 26, 2012, 01:52:52 AM
It was about the fact that their website does not disclose any RRPs...

Getting a little off topic, but its good to see a lot of authorised reps (such as Camerapro in Brisbane) list the 6D at $2199.  The do say the price might change, but I think it bodes well.  When you consider that price includes $200 GST, the underlying price is even cheaper than the US.  Overall, local Canon pricing for camera bodies hasn't been shocking me as much as it used to.

Back on topic, I can't believe how much anger the 6D has generated.  Peoples, its just a camera.  It will probably work very well, even if it is uninspiring to many.  There's plenty of other alternative cameras out there.  You don't have to pin your hopes and aspirations on this one.  If its not perfectly suited to your needs, don't buy it.  The best way of getting your message across to Canon is for them to see all of their 6Ds gathering dust on the shelf while the D600 sells like hotcakes.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: verysimplejason on September 26, 2012, 02:40:09 AM
I don´t understand why Canon put no CF card slot or a CF and a SD card slot in it.

That´s why a lot of 7D, 5D Mark II and 50D users are not willing to switch to the 6D.

6D is for rebel users who wants to go FF.  7D, 5D2 and 50D can go for 5D3, the upcoming 7D2 and the 70D.  The choice is there though I admit not in the price range that we want.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: aj1575 on September 26, 2012, 02:52:21 AM
with all the complains about canons 6D autofocus why is no website, that cares about canon in one way or the other, writing an open letter to canon... demanding a statement?

i mean.... dpreview wrote it´s a rather dissapointing camera and i have yet to read a preview that is not puzzled by the low-tech AF.

if we complain here in a forum .. canon cares a sh*t.

but if a popular and frequented website writes something and is not afraid to tell the truth... maybe canon will take notice and feel obligated to react?

or maybe it´s to late here and im just bored and tired.....

Move on, buy a Nikon D600, and enjoy the greener grass on the other side....


...and then you will meet a guy who is focusing with its -3EV center AF-Point where the Nikon is completly blind. You can't have it all. I moslty use my center point only, since it is the best I've got, and it is the best way get in-Focus shoots with my old heavily used EOS 350D.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: pasghik on September 26, 2012, 03:48:47 AM
Back on topic, I can't believe how much anger the 6D has generated.  Peoples, its just a camera.  It will probably work very well, even if it is uninspiring to many.  There's plenty of other alternative cameras out there.  You don't have to pin your hopes and aspirations on this one.  If its not perfectly suited to your needs, don't buy it.  The best way of getting your message across to Canon is for them to see all of their 6Ds gathering dust on the shelf while the D600 sells like hotcakes.

You see, people are invested in glass. Personally I want to switch to Nikon, even though it will cost me around €1500. Canon users had pretty clear needs. Canon instead of fullfilling them, just f*cks around.
They give with one hand, but take with other. Or they give with both hands but want us to sell our kidney to get it.

G-serie:
Needed: 10-12 MP, fast lens with moderate zoom, swivel screen.
Thy did 15mp with heavy noise at iso100, they did 7x zoom lens f/2,8-....
Canon has made all combinations except the right one. In he year 2012 they finally come to where they started - G3.

5Dmk2 needed a better AF. Instead of simply putting 5 X-points (center & 1/3 rule) they made 2 cameras.
One with same one-center-point AF - €500 more expensive, another with super-pro AF - €1700 more  expensive. WTF?

Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Hillsilly on September 26, 2012, 04:26:32 AM
I agree.  And I'm not reallly advocating a switch.  I just think that if the 6D is a sales disaster then Canon will have to give some serious thought to where they went wrong.  Although, realistically, I suspect it will be a sales success and the Canon execs will probably sit around slapping each other on their backs saying how awesome they (and the 6D) are.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: pasghik on September 26, 2012, 05:02:55 AM
I agree.  And I'm not reallly advocating a switch.  I just think that if the 6D is a sales disaster then Canon will have to give some serious thought to where they went wrong.  Although, realistically, I suspect it will be a sales success and the Canon execs will probably sit around slapping each other on their backs saying how awesome they (and the 6D) are.

Economically it will be good. That is the problem. Canon suck out money, that is the only thing they care.

Originally I wanted to get 60D after 350D. But compared to 50D they removed AF MA (very important thing to me), removed joystick, removed big wheel. So I basically had to get 7D which was €500 more expensive and almost same price as 5Dmk2 at that time. I got 5Dmk2. Now I am politely asked to go another €1500 higher to get 5Dmk3, because Canon is not willing to upgrade AF on €2000 FF cameras.

F*ck your customers is good business strategy, but not for a long time.
"I am so out of here."
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Hillsilly on September 26, 2012, 05:46:44 AM
I've got an older 1Ds Mkii and was hoping that a 6D might be the next thing for me.  I'll like the smaller size and the video capabilities.  Higher ISOs, WiFi and GPS will also be fun to play with.  But there are a few things that aren't quite as good.  Just wish the decision was a bit easier. 
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 26, 2012, 07:03:47 AM
Originally I wanted to get 60D after 350D. But compared to 50D they removed AF MA (very important thing to me), removed joystick, removed big wheel. So I basically had to get 7D which was €500 more expensive and almost same price as 5Dmk2 at that time. I got 5Dmk2. Now I am politely asked to go another €1500 higher to get 5Dmk3, because Canon is not willing to upgrade AF on €2000 FF cameras.

yep that´s my problem with canon at the moment too.

looking at the 6D and the price tag of 2099 euro... i don´t see why they could not include an AF similiar to the 7D´s.

the 6D is not so expensive to manufacture (it´s just a FF 60D) and none of it´s features justify the price.
it´s because canon thinks they can charge that money.

and if they made that decision (crippling the AF)  because they want to protect 5D MK3 sales.... why not giving the 5D MK3 the GPS and WIFI features?

that makes no real sense to me...  ???
maybe canon thinks the 5D MK3 customers are more likely to buy the overpriced canon grips?

anyway... the 5D MK3 offers enough to differentiate it from the 6D.. even when the 6D has an AF similiar to the 7D. 

or at least all AF points should be cross sensors.. is it that hard?
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: aj1575 on September 26, 2012, 07:37:08 AM
...Although, realistically, I suspect it will be a sales success and the Canon execs will probably sit around slapping each other on their backs saying how awesome they (and the 6D) are.
If it becomes a sales success, then Canon did mostly right with the 6D. There will always be some people who had wished for another camera, or think that more should be included for the same price. But that is just the way it is.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: thebowtie on September 26, 2012, 07:39:08 AM

We are all free to choose any manufacturer we want.
...
If you are saying people should cram their complaining, yeah, then I agree completely.
+1  :)
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 26, 2012, 07:40:43 AM

We are all free to choose any manufacturer we want.
...
If you are saying people should cram their complaining, yeah, then I agree completely.
+1  :)

as if it is that easy..   ::)  for guys with just a kit lens that is maybe the case.

but not for people who build a lens collection worth 5 figures.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: aj1575 on September 26, 2012, 07:56:10 AM
...
looking at the 6D and the price tag of 2099 euro... i don´t see why they could not include an AF similiar to the 7D´s.

the 6D is not so expensive to manufacture (it´s just a FF 60D) and none of it´s features justify the price.
it´s because canon thinks they can charge that money.

and if they made that decision (crippling the AF)  because they want to protect 5D MK3 sales.... why not giving the 5D MK3 the GPS and WIFI features?

that makes no real sense to me...  ???
maybe canon thinks the 5D MK3 customers are more likely to buy the overpriced canon grips?
...
or at least all AF points should be cross sensors.. is it that hard?
I know from other consumer products (I'm a mechanical engineer, desining stuff) how difficult it is to find a balance between features an price. So I would be very carefull to question Canons logic in the way they put features into a camera.

I'm sure you can't tell us how much the 7D AF costs, and how much the one in the 6D is, or what is the price for the GPS and WiFi integration. I know, your reaction will be, this is not expensive, there are SD-Cards with WiFi and every smartphone has GPS and so on. But there is a price tag on every feature that is included in a consumer product. The marketing sets a target price, and tells the engineering department in what features it must differ from the cameras above and below in the range.
Is the 6D therefore a rip-off at 2099$? No, because you got a camera that has features included that are worth 2099$
(Well actually they are worth much less, since the price of the camera includes much more than the cost of the pieces it is made of; R+D, manufacturing, logisitcs, marketing, profit (for Canon and the reseller) and so on).

What you can do, is complaining, that you would like to have other features, but then you also need to tell which of the existing ones you like to drop.

For the 6D this means for example, that if you like to have all cross type AF-Sensors, then you probably need to live without the -3EV in the middle, and have all -1EV. You weight up, what you do prefer.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 26, 2012, 08:02:03 AM
I know from other consumer products (I'm a mechanical engineer, desining stuff)

that´s nice. i am too.. was working for thyssen a few years. now im self employed.


Quote
Is the 6D therefore a rip-off at 2099$? No, because you got a camera that has features included that are worth 2099$

well i guess you can´t tell me what the manufacturing cost of the 6D is either?
so your guess is as good as mine.  :)

my guess is based on the fact that the 60D sells for 950 euro (the 7D for 1200 euro) and i don´t see any feature that is worth 1150 euro more. 

the FF sensor?  ::)

and yes.. i say GPS and WIFI will not make manufacturing much more expensive.

canon is simply maximising profit.. that´s ok for canon to try... but don´t try to sell me the 6D as a bargain.

it´s like dpreview wrote:

Quote
Canon appears almost to have gone the other way, removing as much as it thinks it can get away with at the price. The result is the kind of conservative, slightly unimaginative design that's become the company's hallmark.


Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Northstar on September 26, 2012, 08:23:31 AM
Many of these executives at canon are like execs at most other large corporations, they're good at corporate politics and doing things that help them move up the corporate ladder.  This doesnt make them great at making business decisions, just great at saying the right things to the right people.  After many years they finally get to a level in the company where they have the final say and/or significant influence on the business strategy, and features/pricing of a product like this new 6d or the ridiculously priced 24-70ii....and they end up making average business decisions which lead to "ok" products.

Steve Jobs constant focus on the product at Apple should be the most important class they teach at business school.  Make things that customers will fall in love with....profits will follow.   Not many people will fall in love with a canon 6d...IMO.

Edit...there was a "big miss" this year, but it actually came from Nikon.  They came with a 36mp "slower" camera that isn't as good of an "all around" camera as the 5d3...and targeted towards a narrower group of photogs.  But what if Nikon had done what canon did by simply upgrading their very popular d700?   They would've had a d800 out at $3,000, 22mp, 8fps, AND the much better sensor everyone keeps talking about....that would've forced canon to adjust their pricing a bit on the 5d3.




Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: marekjoz on September 26, 2012, 08:36:47 AM
So this is the letter, we could send :)

"We, the community of canonrumors.com, we wish to thank you for the effort you make for the world of imaging products. However, observing your marketing decisions in the area of the DSLR products line - it's specifications and pricing - we believe, that our own experience, expectations and loyalty were often omitted. The best example is the EOS 6D - so long expected by many of us and dissapointing by even more. To help you achieve even better results as  from the technical as well from marketing and business points of view, we think, that our help will be more than good welcomed by your DSLR's department. Therefore we strongly advice you to send to each of us on this forum, having, let's say 830 comments and more, samples of the newest DSLRs, mirrorlesses and lenses for testing purposes (we could also use it for casual business purposes as nothing makes the better promotion as the fact, that it can earn for itself). Addresses for delivery we will send to you via PM system on this site, or on regular e-mail basis.
We appreciate your attention, hope you understand our concerns and have strong faith in our perspective cooperation. After having tested the gear you would sent, we promise to write only truth, no matter if you like or not. We hope, that you understand, that this is crucial for really objective results, and only they can lead to achieve better results. Those 20 sets of your best and newest technology might be the best investment in marketing and testing since the world has seen the first EOS on the planet.
Looking forward to here from you soon, we send you best wishes and thank again for understanding."

:D
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Stewbyyy on September 26, 2012, 09:07:12 AM
I have a 6D on pre-order...

It's perfect for me. It will go very well with my 60D. I shoot some sports, gigs and portraits. The 60D has always been perfectly fine for my sports needs so I can keep it for that. The 6D will be perfect for portraits and great for gigs since I only really use the centre AF point anyway.

For me, buying a 5D Mark II would be pointless, as buying CF cards to replace my SD cards would put me around the same price point as the 6D, if not, more. The 5D III, although perfect, is out of reach.
I'm not a professional, I shoot and earn money from it, I shoot for fun, I'm going to college for photography. The 6D is perfect for me, in absolutely every way. Yeah, I would have liked the 7D's AF system, but 9 points doesn't bother me, I wouldn't care if it only had the one point in the centre - that's all I pretty much use.

It's been said that you get what you pay for. You're never going to get exactly what you want, a compromise has to be made someone. If you really want better AF then save your money for a few extra months and get a 5D Mark III. Is it really that hard a concept to understand?

I don't care that it has SD cards over CF cards, in 4 years of using a DSLR I've never had an SD card fail on me. Class 10 SD cards are perfectly fast for practically anything, my 60D's buffer clears quickly and the 6D should be fine.

Canon didn't mess this up, it's an entry level full frame camera.
Treat full frame and APS-C sensors independently of each other.
APS-C:
650D - it'll do pretty much anything you need but it's a simple camera with a few cool features to appeal to consumers.
60D - more robust camera than the 650D, better built, better features, not necessarily aimed at people looking to just take snapshots.
7D - top of the line, professional features, built like a brick.

Full frame:
6D - it'll do pretty much anything you need but it's a simple camera with a few cool features to appeal to consumers.
5D Mark III - more robust camera, better built, better AF, less gimmicky, built for professional use.
1DX - Top of the line, if you want the absolute best then this is what you buy.

I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 26, 2012, 09:22:13 AM
I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

or maybe they think they get a better deal for less money from nikon these days.

 
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: aj1575 on September 26, 2012, 09:28:47 AM
Steve Jobs constant focus on the product at Apple should be the most important class they teach at business school.  Make things that customers will fall in love with....profits will follow.   Not many people will fall in love with a canon 6d...IMO.
I'm glad you mention Steve Jobs. What would a camera look like, if it were made by Apple?

Just look at the iPod. People and reviewers were asking for FM-receivers all the time, Apple never included it. The ability to record on an iPod, like it was possible with many other MP3 players; no, never on an iPod.

Appled trashed Flash on the smartphone; can you remember the outcry of the puplic, and especially the reviewers, what! no flash, they have to do something about it.

Or the iPhone an exchancable batteries. There is still discussion going on about that, like with many other things Apple did.
So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: marekjoz on September 26, 2012, 09:33:06 AM
Steve Jobs constant focus on the product at Apple should be the most important class they teach at business school.  Make things that customers will fall in love with....profits will follow.   Not many people will fall in love with a canon 6d...IMO.
I'm glad you mention Steve Jobs. What would a camera look like, if it were made by Apple?

Just look at the iPod. People and reviewers were asking for FM-receivers all the time, Apple never included it. The ability to record on an iPod, like it was possible with many other MP3 players; no, never on an iPod.

Appled trashed Flash on the smartphone; can you remember the outcry of the puplic, and especially the reviewers, what! no flash, they have to do something about it.

Or the iPhone an exchancable batteries. There is still discussion going on about that, like with many other things Apple did.
So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.

Looking at their perfect target group and previous products, such a camera would have one button only.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: bakedcorn on September 26, 2012, 09:38:19 AM
I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

or maybe they think they get a better deal for less money from nikon these days.

...then go buy Nikon.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on September 26, 2012, 09:51:28 AM
...then go buy Nikon.

well many would.... if they had not thousands of euros invested in canon glass.

and if you use your fanboy brain on your third posting here, you might get it before making a post.  ;)
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: distant.star on September 26, 2012, 09:51:34 AM
I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

And there's the rub. Do you bend over and help them stick it in or do you turn around and slap their face! Is it more than you would like to spend or is it more than it's really worth? And if it's more than it's worth, do you "...take up arms against a sea of troubles..."?

"...a bit more than they would like to spend" is pathetically passive. And "just too cheap" is what a whore says when she gets insulted when you only offer her a quarter.

Most consumers have become like this guy -- they think a seller sets the price and they can either afford it or not. If they have the money, they just hand it over for what they want. The idea that the price may not be worth the value never enters their mind. What -- I don't get what I want because it costs too much???

Best example is the 5D3. I'd own one today if I thought it was worth $3500. It has nothing to do with what I'd "like to spend." I could spend that, even though I don't want to, but it's far more important to me to say to Canon, "I like your product, but I won't pay that much for it." So I don't pay that much for it. [The Adorama ebay sale last weekend revealed that it can be sold for $2750, so when the opportunity comes along again, I'll pay that for what is probably the best overall, mass market, full frame camera available.] Frankly, all the bendovers, who gladly handed over $3500 haven't helped send any message to Canon in the only language they truly comprehend.

Funny thing, as much as I think the 6D is an abortion of a camera, the price does not seem out of line. It's going to put a lot of Spielberg wannabes and center-pointers in hog heaven. And it's going to sell a lot of glass for Canon.

And now, if you'll pardon me, I have pictures to make. Good day one and all, even you pathetically passive consumers.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: aj1575 on September 26, 2012, 09:59:42 AM

well i guess you can´t tell me what the manufacturing cost of the 6D is either?
so your guess is as good as mine.  :)

my guess is based on the fact that the 60D sells for 950 euro (the 7D for 1200 euro) and i don´t see any feature that is worth 1150 euro more. 

the FF sensor?  ::)

and yes.. i say GPS and WIFI will not make manufacturing much more expensive.

canon is simply maximising profit.. that´s ok for canon to try... but don´t try to sell me the 6D as a bargain.

it´s like dpreview wrote:

Quote
Canon appears almost to have gone the other way, removing as much as it thinks it can get away with at the price. The result is the kind of conservative, slightly unimaginative design that's become the company's hallmark.

The price for a 60D is today at 950$ it was 1300$ when it came out http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?pu=697573 (http://pricespy.co.nz/product.php?pu=697573)(NZ$). The 5DII started also over 3000$ like the 5DIII. So the comparison of the brand new 6D to a 2 year old 60D, is flawed. The price of the 6D will come down soon, and by the amount of the drop we will see how successfull it was, and by how much Canon can lower the prices with still making profit.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: aj1575 on September 26, 2012, 10:23:46 AM
Most consumers have become like this guy -- they think a seller sets the price and they can either afford it or not. If they have the money, they just hand it over for what they want. The idea that the price may not be worth the value never enters their mind. What -- I don't get what I want because it costs too much???

Best example is the 5D3. I'd own one today if I thought it was worth $3500. It has nothing to do with what I'd "like to spend." I could spend that, even though I don't want to, but it's far more important to me to say to Canon, "I like your product, but I won't pay that much for it." So I don't pay that much for it. [The Adorama ebay sale last weekend revealed that it can be sold for $2750, so when the opportunity comes along again, I'll pay that for what is probably the best overall, mass market, full frame camera available.] Frankly, all the bendovers, who gladly handed over $3500 haven't helped send any message to Canon in the only language they truly comprehend.

You forget that there is a thing called "supply and demand",  if there is demand for a 3500$ FF DSLR that Canon can supply, then they will do it. They will do the same with a 2099$ DSLR. If the demand drops, they can lower the price, or they need to reduce the supply.
If you are not willing to pay 3500$ for a 5DIII, then you are simply not at the point where supply and demand meets. And just because some people think that 3500$ is not too much for such a camera, doesn't mean that they are wrong.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 26, 2012, 10:33:17 AM
So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.

Yeah, but those people are all just Microsoft-loving whiners with a high tolerance for kludgy platforms.   :o
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: RC on September 26, 2012, 10:47:51 AM
To me this is all very simple:

The 6D seems like a fine camera for FF beginners.  The problem is it should be about $1600, have  a flipscreen, aimed at the video group, and fall in the xxD line, something like a 65D.  Gimmicks like WiFi and GPS can remain (yes they are gimmicks, although useful for many, they are not core camera components).

For us that care more about core components like AF, view finder size, build and ergo, and even card type there is only 1 option which is the the very costly 5D3.  Now that Canon has offered an xD alternative to the 5D3, there is little to no hope that Canon will offer a mid range FF body this cycle. 

I think we can all agree there is a huge gap between the 5D3 and 6D.  If the 6D was a xxD and the 6D was in-line with other xD (single digit) bodies, it would be good for us and good for Canon.  I think there is plenty of room for a another $2500 FF body assuming the 6D is a xxD priced about $1600

For those telling us we are too cheap and unwilling to cough up the bucks for a 5D3, well, even in the year 2012 $3500 is a lot of money for a body and difficult to justify for many.  Some just don't have it, others can't justify it.  Canon will still likely get our money but in the form of glass and accessories so its not about being cheap.

For those telling us to run to Nikon, yes some will and have.  For myself, I'm invested in Canon, I'm staying with Canon for several reasons.

I certainly understand Canon-F1's frustration and desire to send Canon a letter although I don't think it would be effective.  Yes there are bigger issues in the world as one poster mentioned but that is partly why I visit CR to escape much of the BS in the world.   Finally I think it is perfectly appropriate for someone to express their frustration or disappointment in a product spec or announcement as long as it's in moderation and appropriately stated.

Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: daniemare on September 26, 2012, 11:29:56 AM
I am an owner of a 500D and a 450D before that.  I upgraded solely to give my the 450D to my sister as I could get the 500D at a bargain price. Performance difference - almost none

For me, the 6D would be an improvement in ALL departments. FF, ISO, DIGIC, FPS, AFS, OVF, LCD, GPS, WIFI. Bonus is my SD cards are still usable. And I understand its is me that Canon is targeting with the 6D

My point is yes, if you bought a 60D or 7D last year, you might be dissapointed. Even a 5DII owner might be. But I am sure that the 5D owner sees the same upgrades as I do.

It's very much like the iPhone 5.  Coming from a 3GS I think it is an awesome phone, while many of my 4S friends are dissapointed.

If you buy a camera/phone/TV/you name it every year, the incremental upgrades will frustrate you to the point of shear dissapointment
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Zlatko on September 26, 2012, 11:37:18 AM
...then go buy Nikon.
well many would.... if they had not thousands of euros invested in canon glass.
Easy to sell it.  Very easy:  eBay.  You can sell all of your Canon gear within a week.  I've never had a problem selling my used Canon gear and have always gotten a fair price.  The loss on resale is modest, certainly fair for the use I've gotten out of the gear.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Sony on September 26, 2012, 11:45:49 AM
I almost canceled 5DMKiii's pre-order when was reading a lot of complaints on this forum. Fortunately, I didnt and now am very satisfied with it. So, post complaint after it's yours and you are familiar with it. Dont utter after just hearing. LOL,
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: jfretless on September 26, 2012, 11:52:28 AM
I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

And there's the rub. Do you bend over and help them stick it in or do you turn around and slap their face! Is it more than you would like to spend or is it more than it's really worth? And if it's more than it's worth, do you "...take up arms against a sea of troubles..."?

"...a bit more than they would like to spend" is pathetically passive. And "just too cheap" is what a whore says when she gets insulted when you only offer her a quarter.

Most consumers have become like this guy -- they think a seller sets the price and they can either afford it or not. If they have the money, they just hand it over for what they want. The idea that the price may not be worth the value never enters their mind. What -- I don't get what I want because it costs too much???

Best example is the 5D3. I'd own one today if I thought it was worth $3500. It has nothing to do with what I'd "like to spend." I could spend that, even though I don't want to, but it's far more important to me to say to Canon, "I like your product, but I won't pay that much for it." So I don't pay that much for it. [The Adorama ebay sale last weekend revealed that it can be sold for $2750, so when the opportunity comes along again, I'll pay that for what is probably the best overall, mass market, full frame camera available.] Frankly, all the bendovers, who gladly handed over $3500 haven't helped send any message to Canon in the only language they truly comprehend.

Funny thing, as much as I think the 6D is an abortion of a camera, the price does not seem out of line. It's going to put a lot of Spielberg wannabes and center-pointers in hog heaven. And it's going to sell a lot of glass for Canon.

And now, if you'll pardon me, I have pictures to make. Good day one and all, even you pathetically passive consumers.

Wow.  What a tool.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: paul13walnut5 on September 26, 2012, 11:54:45 AM
@neuroanatomist
Quote
Quote from: aj1575 on Today at 09:28:47 AM

    So like here in the forum, there many people complaining about apple products too.


Yeah, but those people are all just Microsoft-loving whiners with a high tolerance for kludgy platforms.

Or those mightily annoyed with Apples policy of abandoning the professional creative market that kept them going through the dark days before iphones & apps.

Apple screwed up FCP, so I think shall I move onto Adobe CS?  Except that I'll need to drop another £1000 on a graphics card that will give me anything like the performance from a PC costing half as much, or less.

Apple have a great OS and handsome machines which are a joy to use.  But when it comes down to brass tacks, if I can't run the app I want at a modern speed (FCP7 made 64bit) and I am getting pumped because of Apple & Adobe's unpleasant petty spat, then I'll make my next PC a windows machine.

Life is too short and my pockets too shallow.   Some Mac zealots really can't see this.  I've used macs professionally since 2001, PowerMacs, iMacs, Powerbooks, Macbook Pros, Mac Pros, since every version of FCP from v2 onwards.  I love macs.  Stable.  Reliable.  Transparent.  OSX when it came in just vindicated that. 

Now apple don't want my business anymore.  Or they want me to use a neutered version of the app that doesn't play nice with the pro tape formats I need.

So I'll moan about Apple thanks.  And I was an Apple person.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Trovador on September 26, 2012, 11:55:48 AM
To me this is all very simple:

The 6D seems like a fine camera for FF beginners.  The problem is it should be about $1600, have  a flipscreen, aimed at the video group, and fall in the xxD line, something like a 65D.  Gimmicks like WiFi and GPS can remain (yes they are gimmicks, although useful for many, they are not core camera components).

For us that care more about core components like AF, view finder size, build and ergo, and even card type there is only 1 option which is the the very costly 5D3.  Now that Canon has offered an xD alternative to the 5D3, there is little to no hope that Canon will offer a mid range FF body this cycle. 

I think we can all agree there is a huge gap between the 5D3 and 6D.  If the 6D was a xxD and the 6D was in-line with other xD (single digit) bodies, it would be good for us and good for Canon.  I think there is plenty of room for a another $2500 FF body assuming the 6D is a xxD priced about $1600

For those telling us we are too cheap and unwilling to cough up the bucks for a 5D3, well, even in the year 2012 $3500 is a lot of money for a body and difficult to justify for many.  Some just don't have it, others can't justify it.  Canon will still likely get our money but in the form of glass and accessories so its not about being cheap.

For those telling us to run to Nikon, yes some will and have.  For myself, I'm invested in Canon, I'm staying with Canon for several reasons.

I certainly understand Canon-F1's frustration and desire to send Canon a letter although I don't think it would be effective.  Yes there are bigger issues in the world as one poster mentioned but that is partly why I visit CR to escape much of the BS in the world.   Finally I think it is perfectly appropriate for someone to express their frustration or disappointment in a product spec or announcement as long as it's in moderation and appropriately stated.

Reasonable, well though posts such as your will not be tolerated in this forum, reported!.  (Completely agree)
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: friedmud on September 26, 2012, 01:09:35 PM
Canon WILL lose customers over this.

Lots of people will just wait for the next iteration.  Many will just get a 6D anyway.  Several will save up for a 5D3.  Some WILL sell all their Canon gear and get a D600.

How many that is remains to be seen.

My D600 rental shows up tomorrow.  If it's good, you'll be able to find all of my Canon gear on Craiist next week.

I know I can't be the only one.

Will it ultimately "hurt" Canon that some are going to leave?  Probably not... and that's definitely not my intention... I just want the best camera I can get for $2k.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 26, 2012, 02:26:28 PM
Canon WILL lose customers over this.

Of course they will.  Nikon DID lose customers who went from the D700 to a 5DIII.  You and I, as individuals, don't matter per se.  What matters is aggregate behavior over time.  The available data for the past 6 years have shown that in aggregate, Nikon has been losing dSLR market share, and Canon has been gaining it.  Maybe that will change, maybe not.  Given that as of the most recently available data (2010), Nikon trailed Canon by close to 15% of market share (45% vs. 30%) Nikon has a long uphill climb.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on September 27, 2012, 08:37:44 PM
with all the complains about canons 6D autofocus why is no website, that cares about canon in one way or the other, writing an open letter to canon... demanding a statement?

i mean.... dpreview wrote it´s a rather dissapointing camera and i have yet to read a preview that is not puzzled by the low-tech AF.

if we complain here in a forum .. canon cares a sh*t.

but if a popular and frequented website writes something and is not afraid to tell the truth... maybe canon will take notice and feel obligated to react?

or maybe it´s to late here and im just bored and tired.....
The 6D is supposed to excel at low-light autofocus.  If you don't need that, then it probably wasn't built for you but rather for users who need that.  If you have different needs for AF, Canon offers the 5D3 and 1DX.  If none of those meet your needs, there are Nikon and Sony and others.  Why complain that Canon isn't making the exact camera you want at the price you want at the time that you want it?  No manufacturer can satisfy everyone.  If Canon builds the exact camera that you want, then other potential buyers can rightfully "demand a statement" as to why Canon didn't build the camera that they wanted at the price that they wanted at the time that they wanted it.  There would be no end to such statements.  Besides, who has tested the 6D's AF and found it lacking?  People are complaining before they can even try the camera.
You can't be serious?!
"Excel at Low Light performance"?
You actually believe that marketing bull***t?
Have you read what else Canon has to say about the 6D on their website?
They actually say stuff like, "with continuous shooting up to 4.5fps, you are ready to capture fast action".
That line was actually taken from their description:
http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_6d (http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/slr_cameras/eos_6d)
Unless "fast action" is a Seniors' Walk-a-Thon, the 6D is not ready to capture jack.

My point is the talk about "excelling at Low Light performance" is most likely equally fabricated marketing hype.

And as far as the guy complaining about it, he is well within his right to do so if he is to plunck down his money for one. It always amazes me how people run to Canon's (or any other major company's) rescue when others complain about their subpar efforts. The guy has every right to complain about the 6D because in this day and age, it is a crap effort from a company that should know better. And as long as people just sit their and say nothing, Canon will continue to put out subpar equipment at overflated prices backed overhyped marketing. Every Canon camera put out this year was good but could have been a hell of a lot better for what they are charging. But the 6D is just plain crap. Period.
Wow ... what an ultra-cynical point of view!  You haven't even tried the camera and you're calling it "crap" and worse.  Canon has released an ultra-low-light autofocus spec for the 6D and there is no reason to disbelieve it.  Why would you disbelieve it -- other than having an ultra-cynical point of view?

And why don't you wait to try it before slamming the camera and the company that makes it?  Oh yes, ... that would require just an ounce of fairness, which you can't seem to muster.

Of course, the 6D isn't going to please everybody.  No camera can.  If multi-cross-type autofocus is someone's priority, Canon offers it!  You just have to pay for it.  They're not obligated to put every feature they make in every camera they make.

Why do people feel entitled to the exact camera that they personally envision at the price that they want to pay?  The fact that a camera does not meet your personal photographic needs at this moment does not mean it is "sub-par".  Can you just imagine that it might be very well designed to meet someone else's photographic priorities, perhaps someone with a different photographic style or different subject matter?  And if another company offers you the camera you need, then by all means buy it!


Talk about cynical, I wasn't slamming the camera, I was slamming the false advertising of it. When a company writes ready for high speed capture when referring to 4.5fps it gives me good reason to believe the rest of what they say about it is equally misleading. Why don't you try not being such a fanboy and having a open mind that Canon screws over it's customers and people like you only make it worse because you defend them despite of it. You're not helping Canon or yourself.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on September 27, 2012, 08:57:44 PM
It was about the fact that their website does not disclose any RRPs...


The best way of getting your message across to Canon is for them to see all of their 6Ds gathering dust on the shelf while the D600 sells like hotcakes.


Exactly. I hope the 6D is a huge flop so as to send a message to Canon to start innovating and stop putting out products for profit. Anyone with even the slightest amount of common sense should be able to see that this camera was just put out to encourage enthusiasts not to buy the D600. Things like GPS and Wireless transfer should have been included in the 5D Mark III at slightly above the price of the 6D. That would have shown real innovation and the damn things would have flown off the shelves faster than Canon could make them. The D800 nor the D600 wouldn't have stood a chance. Instead, we get a overpriced 5D Mark III and a crippled AF 6D.

I'm basically locked into the Canon system because of my lens collection, but when any of my friends just starting out ask what camera they should buy, I will recommend to them Nikon or Sony.

Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: tnargs on September 27, 2012, 09:31:22 PM
DKN, you are diverting discussion from your original claim that Canon's claim the 6D has good low light AF is 'bull'. I can't see why you doubt it.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on September 27, 2012, 09:32:01 PM
I think some people are just too cheap to admit that the camera they want is a bit more than they would like to spend.

And there's the rub. Do you bend over and help them stick it in or do you turn around and slap their face! Is it more than you would like to spend or is it more than it's really worth? And if it's more than it's worth, do you "...take up arms against a sea of troubles..."?

"...a bit more than they would like to spend" is pathetically passive. And "just too cheap" is what a whore says when she gets insulted when you only offer her a quarter.

Most consumers have become like this guy -- they think a seller sets the price and they can either afford it or not. If they have the money, they just hand it over for what they want. The idea that the price may not be worth the value never enters their mind. What -- I don't get what I want because it costs too much???

Best example is the 5D3. I'd own one today if I thought it was worth $3500. It has nothing to do with what I'd "like to spend." I could spend that, even though I don't want to, but it's far more important to me to say to Canon, "I like your product, but I won't pay that much for it." So I don't pay that much for it. [The Adorama ebay sale last weekend revealed that it can be sold for $2750, so when the opportunity comes along again, I'll pay that for what is probably the best overall, mass market, full frame camera available.] Frankly, all the bendovers, who gladly handed over $3500 haven't helped send any message to Canon in the only language they truly comprehend.

Funny thing, as much as I think the 6D is an abortion of a camera, the price does not seem out of line. It's going to put a lot of Spielberg wannabes and center-pointers in hog heaven. And it's going to sell a lot of glass for Canon.

And now, if you'll pardon me, I have pictures to make. Good day one and all, even you pathetically passive consumers.


Very well said. I totally agree with you. I was one the first people in Japan to get my hands on a 5D Mark III. I bought it from a Pro shop and they hugely discounted it for me because I have been a loyal customer for years. Otherwise I would have never considered the purchase. It's a fine camera, just NOT at the price that Canon is arrogantly asking.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on September 27, 2012, 10:00:42 PM
DKN, you are diverting discussion from your original claim that Canon's claim the 6D has good low light AF is 'bull'. I can't see why you doubt it.


I'm not diverting anything. There are many discussions about this camera and I'm just commenting where I feel I have something to say. Maybe I'm right, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm entitled to my opinion.


In reply to you, all I can say is that if you examine the rest of their marketing hype about the 6D, it only seems logical that its low light capabilities are equally exaggerated. Besides no machine ever manufactured performs up to the standards advertised by the company that manufactures it. None! I'm sorry to say, but to believe a Single cross point AF system will have great low light performance is just naive. I own both the 5D Mark III and the 1DX and use them both daily in various lighting conditions. Even with their outstanding AF and multiple cross type AF points, they sometimes struggle to lock focus in low light situations. Realistically, I can't imagine the 6D with it's single point fairing any better. Otherwise I would just sell both of those cameras and buy two 6Ds. Especially since (according to Canon) it's ready for high speed capture with it's 4.5fps continuous burst. Guess my 1DX is just huge overkill. lol
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: hydrapenguin on October 03, 2012, 09:17:52 PM
True that. I was a bit surprised with the announcement of the 6D..... I mean, Canon did have to respond in some way to the D600 but it didn't seem like all that of an impressive camera.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: tnargs on October 04, 2012, 04:01:08 AM
DKN, maybe it's because your high-end Canons have so many AF points that they struggle a bit in very low light.

The larger the elements of the AF system, the less low-light performance.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 04, 2012, 09:20:26 AM
The larger the elements of the AF system, the less low-light performance.

Can you please explain in more detail what you mean?  What elements?  How does size relate to sensitivity?
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on October 04, 2012, 08:08:59 PM
DKN, maybe it's because your high-end Canons have so many AF points that they struggle a bit in very low light.

The larger the elements of the AF system, the less low-light performance.


Actually I have both of my cameras set to only use the cross type AF points. Any camera will struggle when shooting events in dark night clubs etc... It's just a given. My point is that my present cameras represent Canon's best AF ever and even they struggle (as expected) in extremely low light, so it is reasonable to think the 6D will not do any better with a lesser AF. Sorry I'm just extremely skeptical of the low light performance claims of this camera, especially since I live in low light territory for a large majority of my shooting. Experience tells me it's hogwash. But hey I would love to be proven wrong. If so, maybe I'll pick up a couple of 6Ds.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Sitting Elf on October 04, 2012, 09:16:34 PM
The points brought up here in multiple posts are certainly valid, but Canon has other problems as well that have been harped on repeatedly over the last few years.

One of the biggest is that their software engineers STILL think that the overwhelmingly majority of their customers are on Windows. Virtually all of their software is written for Microsoft, and "maybe" ported to Mac OS's as an afterthought, or after thousands of customers DEMAND it.

Canon has to realize that Mac users make up a VERY LARGE percentage of creative arts professionals and amateurs. They just don't get it!  An example is my 6350 large format photo printer... I have to keep one remaining Windows computer in order to take advantage of the cost-analysis function built into the printer.  I am not the only owner of that printer that has BEGGED Canon to port the software to be functional on Mac OS... but no response from them. (The program's purpose is to measure pigment use and paper costs in order to accurately provide cost per print which is extremely important for large format when they can cost upwards of $20.00 to print!)

This is just Canon. Mostly great equipment, but piss-poor development beyond.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on October 04, 2012, 09:37:16 PM
The points brought up here in multiple posts are certainly valid, but Canon has other problems as well that have been harped on repeatedly over the last few years.

One of the biggest is that their software engineers STILL think that the overwhelmingly majority of their customers are on Windows. Virtually all of their software is written for Microsoft, and "maybe" ported to Mac OS's as an afterthought, or after thousands of customers DEMAND it.

Canon has to realize that Mac users make up a VERY LARGE percentage of creative arts professionals and amateurs. They just don't get it!  An example is my 6350 large format photo printer... I have to keep one remaining Windows computer in order to take advantage of the cost-analysis function built into the printer.  I am not the only owner of that printer that has BEGGED Canon to port the software to be functional on Mac OS... but no response from them. (The program's purpose is to measure pigment use and paper costs in order to accurately provide cost per print which is extremely important for large format when they can cost upwards of $20.00 to print!)

This is just Canon. Mostly great equipment, but piss-poor development beyond.


Couldn't agree more.
They just don't seem to care. The GUI of all of their software is just plain hideous! That's why as soon as Adobe or Apple upgrade their apps to support whatever new camera Canon has released, the first thing most professionals do is delete DPP from their computers. Personally I never install it. If RAW is not natively supported, I use Adobe's RAW to DNG converter as a workaround until Camera RAW or Aperture or Lightroom can catch up.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: moreorless on October 05, 2012, 10:47:17 AM
Maybe its just me but I get the feeling that Canon are specifically NOT targeting the "internet camera buff" market, serious amature or semi pro users very focused on IQ AND price.

There recent releases to me seem to be either focused on the larger pro markets(event photographers with the 5D3, sports/jurnos with the 1DX, looks like the 3D maybe a higher end studio cam aswell) or towards the more casual comsumer users.

We may turn our noses up at Wifi and GPS as gimmicks but for a high end family/travel camera they are probabley key sellers to alot of people. Likewise I'm guessing alot of such users arent going to be interested in learnign advanced AF systems, the best center point possible is likely enough.

Why would Canon not be going after the prosumers? my guess would be that theres simpley not much money to be made doing it, they hunger for the latest most expensive tech but generally are not willing to spend massive amounts. You look at Canon's profits and they do seem to be greater than there market share would suggest so my guess is that there making alot more on the 5D3 or the 6D than Nikon are on the D800 or D600.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: bdunbar79 on October 05, 2012, 10:59:44 AM
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thread on this site currently active, and adds to the cesspool that most of the internet already is.  This is embarassing for the site.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: unfocused on October 05, 2012, 11:30:51 AM
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thread on this site currently active, and adds to the cesspool that most of the internet already is.  This is embarassing for the site.

I don't know. There is some pretty stiff competition for stupid around here. Although I am a bit partial to these threads where people know more about Canon's business than Canon.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: bdunbar79 on October 05, 2012, 11:32:01 AM
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thread on this site currently active, and adds to the cesspool that most of the internet already is.  This is embarassing for the site.

I don't know. There is some pretty stiff competition for stupid around here. Although I am a bit partial to these threads where people know more about Canon's business than Canon.

I won't argue with that statement!
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: distant.star on October 05, 2012, 01:37:02 PM
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thread on this site currently active, and adds to the cesspool that most of the internet already is.  This is embarassing for the site.

Geez, did someone steal your lunch money?

I think the premise of this thread is questionable, but overall, it doesn't seem like the "stupidest" here. There have been some interesting points made.

And if you think this can be characterized as anywhere near the "cesspool" of the Internet, I think you haven't seen the nether reaches!

Nothing wrong with a discussion where people can say wrongheaded things, and perhaps be corrected or at least challenged.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: bdunbar79 on October 05, 2012, 02:23:57 PM
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thread on this site currently active, and adds to the cesspool that most of the internet already is.  This is embarassing for the site.

Geez, did someone steal your lunch money?

I think the premise of this thread is questionable, but overall, it doesn't seem like the "stupidest" here. There have been some interesting points made.

And if you think this can be characterized as anywhere near the "cesspool" of the Internet, I think you haven't seen the nether reaches!

Nothing wrong with a discussion where people can say wrongheaded things, and perhaps be corrected or at least challenged.

While I won't disagree with your statement, it just adds to the amazement of current Canon users, who hate Canon, complaining about how bad Canon sucks, but they are current Canon users......and they contribute to this site.  We all have a choice.  You hate Canon, buy something else.  You hate the 6D.  Buy something else.  Period.  Canon doesn't owe any of you anything; you have a choice in the market.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Northstar on October 05, 2012, 02:54:08 PM
The thing that gets some people upset is when you've invested huge sums of money in the glass, and then they "hold back" on the camera.   Can/Nik almost have a duopoly in terms of market share.  I believe these two companies have 90% of the dslr market, so it's not like buying a car, or TV, or new golf clubs.  Once you buy in with the glass, you hope that "your company" makes a tech leap or strives for excellence in some way so that you have a residual long term benefit. 


Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: MARKOE PHOTOE on October 05, 2012, 03:53:26 PM
These are the tools that are available to work with at the moment and these change so quickly as witnessed by the qty of new and/or improved lenses and bodies.  Surely, a true artist does the best they can with the tools that are currently available.

Why waste time crying over what could have been. Get out there, use your creative mind and tools available and make it the best YOU possibly can.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: sanj on October 05, 2012, 04:48:55 PM
I suspect 6D will be a super success.
I will not buy it but I know of lot of people around me who want an inexpensive full frame camera with good IQ.
They are casual photographers who want super quality for a super price without the 'bells and whistles'.
The world has far more 'casual' photographers who want value for money compared to photographers who want everything on their camera.
IMHO.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Gothmoth on October 05, 2012, 06:01:23 PM
I suspect 6D will be a super success.
I will not buy it but I know of lot of people around me who want an inexpensive full frame camera with good IQ.
They are casual photographers who want super quality for a super price without the 'bells and whistles'.
The world has far more 'casual' photographers who want value for money compared to photographers who want everything on their camera.
IMHO.

and from my experience they buy the even cheaper D600 like mad right now.

the problem for canon is they don´t exist in a vaccum.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Gothmoth on October 05, 2012, 06:03:46 PM
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thread on this site currently active, and adds to the cesspool that most of the internet already is.  This is embarassing for the site.

Geez, did someone steal your lunch money?

wonder why he participates in this thread so much then.... instead of taking pictures....  ::)
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: poias on October 05, 2012, 07:35:45 PM
Canon is doing just fine (for now). This internet furor over their inferior sensor will eventually prompt them to innovate, but the reason they look as bad is because the competitive tech from sonikon is simply too good. A life long Canon user, now I use D600... it just destroys my 5D3 in IQ, no question about it. The detail, tone, and color is far superior to 5D3 (in RAW as use jpegs only as preview).
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: bdunbar79 on October 05, 2012, 07:40:12 PM
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thread on this site currently active, and adds to the cesspool that most of the internet already is.  This is embarassing for the site.

Geez, did someone steal your lunch money?

wonder why he participates in this thread so much then.... instead of taking pictures....  ::)

Yeah, haha, I guess the 1200 I take every week with my CANON equipment isn't enough?  There's always something wrong right?   :P
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on October 05, 2012, 08:55:14 PM
This thread is absolutely the stupidest thread on this site currently active, and adds to the cesspool that most of the internet already is.  This is embarassing for the site.


Hmm interesting assumption since not only are you here, but you have commented several times. So what does that say about you? My point is not to insult you (as you have done to others by calling us stupid for being a part of this discussion) but to point out that any discussion and sharing of ideas cannot not be classified as stupid or a cesspool if we have learned something from each other or enjoy sharing our ideas or opinions with one another. Lighten up bro. We are just things off our chests. No harm in that. You don't like or want to be a part of that, don't join or read. No need to be insulting.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: DarkKnightNine on October 05, 2012, 09:06:36 PM
The thing that gets some people upset is when you've invested huge sums of money in the glass, and then they "hold back" on the camera.   Can/Nik almost have a duopoly in terms of market share.  I believe these two companies have 90% of the dslr market, so it's not like buying a car, or TV, or new golf clubs.  Once you buy in with the glass, you hope that "your company" makes a tech leap or strives for excellence in some way so that you have a residual long term benefit.


Exactly my point and the reason why I feel I have the right to complain. I've given Canon literally over $70,000 in glass and various bodies during my 6 years as a professional shooter and it pisses me off that I'm now locked into a system that doesn't deliver the goods. To add insult to injury is the fact that they are more than capable and appear to be doing it on purpose to maximize profits. When people say why don't you just switch or buy something else, I say sure, ask Canon to reimburse my $70,000 and then I'll consider spending it elsewhere and probably get more back for my buck. Otherwise I have every right to complain about a company that doesn't deliver products that maximize the investment I've already made with them.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Northstar on October 06, 2012, 07:54:33 AM
Canon is doing just fine (for now). This internet furor over their inferior sensor will eventually prompt them to innovate, but the reason they look as bad is because the competitive tech from sonikon is simply too good. A life long Canon user, now I use D600... it just destroys my 5D3 in IQ, no question about it. The detail, tone, and color is far superior to 5D3 (in RAW as use jpegs only as preview).

"Destroys" ....let's not be dramatic...."slightly better" is more accurate.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: criza on October 06, 2012, 11:07:51 AM
Indeed, Canon will not care about some letter from a bunch of camera gear geeks like all of us here or elsewhere. Vote with you feet. I personally doubt that the 6D will sell very well. But I'm sure Canon has done their market research and have their reasons to believe that it is a good model for them to release as it is. Maybe it's just there to drive the sales of other models. I really don't know. There is not enough detail in their financial statements to fully figure it out - or at least I couldn't the last time I looked at their data  -yes, I'm really geekish enough to actually do such a thing; I do, however, draw the line at specialized industry market research reports that you can buy for big chunks of money...

Canon (and very few others) has a fascinating business model in a very difficult environment that has dramatically changed over the last decade and a half. They have done many many things right and at the right time. The fact that they still exist is somewhat of a miracle and attests to the fact that their marketing folks are as savvy as their developers at least.

By the way: the next industry changing wave of disruptive innovation is well underway. And it may be more difficult for Canon and Nikon then the digital revolution. With the capabilities of iPhones and such the market for P&S cameras and even entry level DSLRs may shrink. That's a problem because for these companies that's where the money is - not counting Canon's "professional" (non-camera related) business line or Nikon's medical devices, etc.

So instead of whining and complaining about this, that and the other we should be glad that we still have options. I could see a future where professional grade cameras might be very expensive items for a small market segment. Think Leica's business model. This kind of stuff has happened in other sectors. I'm thinking of professional audio equipment for instance. While a lot of things have become digital and dirt cheap - and surprisingly good, other high grade pieces of gear have become very very expensive for those who need it or think they need it. Or try finding a real watch maker these days. Mechanical watches have become a pure luxury item and the handful of people who can service them charge an arm and a leg.

If we are moving into a direction where large(r) format SLRs or beyond become considered obsolete by the vast majority of users you are going to end up paying dearly to the few specialized manufactures who still make this for you.

+1. Best post in this thread. Thank you for your thoughts.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: x-vision on October 06, 2012, 12:52:12 PM
The thing that gets some people upset is when you've invested huge sums of money in the glass, and then they "hold back" on the camera.   

Exactly.

As others have said already, this is not a 'take it or leave it' proposition.

I wish it was, so Canon would have faced the music (big time!) for their recent marketing choices. 
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: x-vision on October 06, 2012, 01:08:51 PM
I suspect 6D will be a super success.
I will not buy it but I know of lot of people around me who want an inexpensive full frame camera with good IQ.
They are casual photographers who want super quality for a super price without the 'bells and whistles'.
The world has far more 'casual' photographers who want value for money compared to photographers who want everything on their camera.
IMHO.

Well, it remains to be seen if the 6D will be perceived as good value for money.

Basic, consumer-level specs ... for $2099 ... is not good value for money in my book.

The thing is, even if the 6D drops to $1500, I'll still have my doubts.
The basic AF system on the 6D is certainly not confidence inspiring.
And what good is a gorgeous FF sensor on a camera that can't focus.
That's my view of things.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: sanj on October 06, 2012, 02:40:41 PM
It, obviously, will focus just fine for semi actions shots. I think. I hope!
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: Canon-F1 on October 10, 2012, 05:31:26 PM
we need more bad press for canon like this:

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/10/did-canons-sensor-quality-regress-in-its-entry-level-dslrs/ (http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/10/did-canons-sensor-quality-regress-in-its-entry-level-dslrs/)

http://fstoppers.com/canon-650d-rates-worse-than-previous-models (http://fstoppers.com/canon-650d-rates-worse-than-previous-models)

maybe they will wake up in japan then....
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: marekjoz on October 10, 2012, 06:09:12 PM
we need more bad press for canon like this:

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/10/did-canons-sensor-quality-regress-in-its-entry-level-dslrs/ (http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/10/did-canons-sensor-quality-regress-in-its-entry-level-dslrs/)

http://fstoppers.com/canon-650d-rates-worse-than-previous-models (http://fstoppers.com/canon-650d-rates-worse-than-previous-models)

maybe they will wake up in japan then....

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/10/did-canons-sensor-quality-regress-in-its-entry-level-dslrs/ (http://www.petapixel.com/2012/10/10/did-canons-sensor-quality-regress-in-its-entry-level-dslrs/) -  According to camera testing service DxOMark..."
http://fstoppers.com/canon-650d-rates-worse-than-previous-models (http://fstoppers.com/canon-650d-rates-worse-than-previous-models) - " A new comparison test conducted by DXO Mark...."

Will we finally read on dxo site?:
"We were interested how 1dx sensor will behave in comparison to those in 1d4 and 1ds3. Unfortunately, the new sensor in canon's top model is worse in every aspect..."

The discussion about the tests conducted by dxo are here everywhere. First canon vs nikon, later canon sensors vs sony sensors and finally canon defenders vs dxo. Neverending story...
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: ajschot on October 11, 2012, 10:16:52 AM
It was accurate and really fast! there is not that much light at the canon booth and they had not the fastest lens on it (24-105 4.0) and even in that conditions it was totally accurate...  It's a completely diffrent system then the 5D II or 60D, so it doesn't matter if its 1 cross/dualcross/wtfcrosspoint or 10 or 100. It works absolutely fine! So STOP COMPLANING until you had the camera in your hands, took it into dark environment and experienced something completely diffrent!

What looks spot on when reviewing on the LCD is often OOF when reviewing on a monitor during post.  'Totally accurate' with the deep DoF of an f/4 lens is not the same as totally accurate with the razor-thin DoF of an f/1.2 lens and a close subject.  How was the AI Servo tracking performance?

I'm not complaining, just suggesting that the jury is still out, and 20 minutes with a camera at a trade show does is not sufficient for a thorough test.

I also played around with the 6d at the photokina, i was really amazed too and ALSO with the 24-70 f/2.8 it was fast and sharp! Sharper and faster AF then on my 7D, i have to say... i loved it! I just want to know if the IQ and noise level is as good as the 5d3 if that is true, i buy the 6D i have a 19AF crosspoints and i sometimes are disapointed in difficult details that it is not that sharp because of the crosstype. Crosstype is not always better....
The only thing that i can say, it was fast, accurate (zoomed in on the LCD, yes not a monitor i know) i really loved it, and the 1/4000... well then use your ISO at 50.... then you would have the same exposure....

The only things i am going to miss is... joystick, CF cards and the depth knob... 
well... miss i think i will use it as a backup body and wildlife.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: EvillEmperor on February 18, 2013, 01:20:03 PM
Haha you guys who were complaining were dumb! The 6D's one AF point is absolutely amazing I heard! Have a little faith in the company, jeez!
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: RLPhoto on February 18, 2013, 02:51:50 PM
Haha you guys who were complaining were dumb! The 6D's one AF point is absolutely amazing I heard! Have a little faith in the company, jeez!

Amazing? No, The 5D3 AF was amazing the moment I used it. The 6D AF felt like a re-gurdgetated 20D AF with a better center point. Which is the entire problem, The center point is excellent.

Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: garyknrd on February 19, 2013, 10:42:10 AM
IF Canon does come out with that camera? It will launch a wildlife photo boom. The new super II lenses are so good they eclipse the current cameras IMO. Except the 7D. But it is not up
to the AF. I will buy one in a heart beat.
Title: Re: mhm... open letter to canon?
Post by: glongstaff on February 21, 2013, 03:48:56 PM
to be honest, i like to see a website raise uncomfortable questions.

but today it´s all nice "blahblah".

when a website is lucky enough to get an interview, it looks like they do everthing to keep the manager comfortable.

the result is an interview that is nothing more then boring PR.
cheap advertising for the companys.

when have you read an interview with a canon manager where the interviewer asked question you would ask?


Just like a lot of crap bands and movie coverage...possibly too frightened of losing their ability to get hands on testing the goods to have write-ups to beat their market companions...(ie the companies controlling access to their products for only those that are willing to kiss ass!)   ;)