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Messages - Stu_bert

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16
EOS Bodies / Re: DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II
« on: February 11, 2015, 01:16:14 PM »
On the topic of Dynamic Range --

If it does turn out that the 5DS has higher dynamic range - then this will be a major blow to the forum-reputation of all the sensor experts in here who have completely committed themselves to the claim the 5DS will not have higher dynamic range via their dozens of long technical essay posts. They will be completely discredited if the results show higher DR.
[snip]

Uh, naw. People are making predictions based on... well, no real technical data. Really, it's little more than marginally-informed guessing, and guessing wrong is no more shameful than guessing right is laudable.

+1

17
EOS Bodies / Re: DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II
« on: February 11, 2015, 01:14:53 PM »
lol, except I would guess that most people would prefer these forums without the soap opera, but maybe i'm in the minority...

Personally, I do find some entertainment value in it :-) ... and even fierce flaming on CR is nowhere near the *standard* conversational tone on tech forums, mailing list and bugtrackers. Photogs have to have some residual connection to reality, while coder nerds and similar can really sink the rock bottom of social soft skills :-\

thanks for the safety tip  ;)

I work with infra techs, and they certainly call it as they see it. But it's not normally aimed at individuals personally. I believe the Dutch are a lot more direct (but the ones I've dealt with are really good), as are perhaps the Germans (same experience for me)...

Not big enough sample size to judge Aussies  :D

18
EOS Bodies / Re: After a 50MP camera what is the next breakthrough?
« on: February 11, 2015, 01:10:34 PM »
I would love to see a fully automated, real time afma that changes immediately with any focus point used.  Couple that with improved AF speed and accuracy, that would be awesome.

sek

Agree. Mine, including the best posted so far are

- AFMA in camera. Real time, would be better.
- Global Shutter
- 8K video so you can extract single frames at good resolution
- SDK
- Better integration with other systems (smartphones & computers)
- Lytro style focusing
- Sensor cleaning which works (how about something which really protects the sensor when I'm changing lenses but disappears when I want to focus.
- Eye focus - cause the brain is still quicker than the finger
- Removable backs / sensors. I want a 5D Classic updated with amazing light capture capabilities, I want 100MP, I want B&W, I want Infra-red.
- Same quality - smaller and lighter please. MF body is fine, but not if it weighs even more than 35mm. Ditto lenses
- Different sensor tech no more bayer, no more moire, no aliasing...
- Even better zooms (faster & lighter, so I dont need to carry 5 lenses with me)
- EVF (as an add-on when I need it), and when it's better than my optical, again with programmable display
- ISO 3 all the way to ISO 100 (we already have the high end stuff)
- Exposure support for > 30 seconds. Bulb isa legacy from film days. Work it out, then take the shot. Then subtract for hot pixels. Rather than me sit there and calculate it, and time it :)
- Depth mode from the film-camera days. Here's 2 points (selected by eye), now work out the sharpest aperture based on the lens i have attached.
- Diffraction warning based on the lens I have attached. Just like exposure blinkies.
- Auto ETTR. If that gets me the best exposure for the sensor then do it automatically for me, without clipping.
- Minimum shake warning based on lens, sensor size and whether you have a tripod attached. Or auto-adjust ISO.
- Lenses sharp at the edges as well as at the centre. A lot of improvement made, but still a lot to cover.

Sure I can do lots of that already, but if the camera does it, then it makes it easier for newbies, leaves the technicalities for the camera makers, and lets photographers concentrate on the pictures....

19
EOS Bodies / Re: After a 50MP camera what is the next breakthrough?
« on: February 11, 2015, 12:49:36 PM »
I want to throw away my nd grads. They suck. So more dynamic range and iso 12.

Bad news Im afraid even at 20 stops of DR their will be situations where people will want to use ND grads, forget how many stops unless something drastically changes your need polarizing filters and to get creamy water extended exposures with filters (up to 20 stops is possible, the Big Stopper is 10 stops). Ive always seen filters as an artistic tool not a hindrance if they were so I doubt the worlds greatest Landscape Photographers would use them. Unless CMOS sensor design changes IRNDs for 2/4K video are also here to stay.


A solid ND filter like the big stopper is different than an ND grad. You could use that fine on a camera with unlimited dynamic range, as it has nothing to do with dynamic range. It has to do with allowing you to expose for longer (much longer) than you normally would...blurring motion.


A camera with 20 stops of DR would pretty much eliminate the need for graduated nd filters. That is a LOT of dynamic range. Remember, every stop DOUBLES the range of the previous. Going from 11 to 12 stops DOUBLES the range of light your camera is simultaneously sensitive to. Going from 12 to 13 stops DOUBLES the range again. Going from 13 to 14 stops DOUBLES it again. Double it six more times, and you finally reach 20 stops.


That is a truly massive amount of dynamic range. About the only thing you couldn't do with that much dynamic range would be imaging the sun setting behind a mountain well enough to pick out sunspots and flares, while simultaneously pulling out full detail in the deepest shadows of that mountain. There are a couple of celestial objects that could probably use that kind of dynamic range as well...say Orion Nebula or Andromeda Galaxy...both of those are extremely high dynamic range objects, with ultra bright cores and ultra faint outer regions.

What I've not married up Jon, and maybe you have, is I use light to focus the viewer in pictures. If there's too much range in the shot, is there not a chance that it impacts the effectiveness of the shot? Some increase in DR, good. Too much ie 20 stops? Not so sure.

20
EOS Bodies / Re: After a 50MP camera what is the next breakthrough?
« on: February 11, 2015, 12:36:33 PM »
Affordable medium format :) A man can dream, can't he ;D?

If the Pentax 645Z proves successful sales wise, I think the line between a digital MF and 35mm DSLRs will continue to blur.

If it weighs the same as mirrorless, then I'm all for that :)

21
EOS Bodies / Re: DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II
« on: February 11, 2015, 12:33:49 PM »
His opinion is not fact, it is opinion, he usually muddies the two and too many here seem to take his word as gospel, it isn't.

Muhahaha, what would be CR without the regular heavyweights going at each other, you could copy/paste a script for a soap opera from it :->



lol, except I would guess that most people would prefer these forums without the soap opera, but maybe i'm in the minority...

22
EOS Bodies / Re: DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II
« on: February 11, 2015, 12:17:50 PM »

JRista gave us a nice long detailed explanation how DR works, said given what we know now, he doesn't see how it could be improved that much.  Then he said "I hope I'm wrong"   Not sure how you could be more scientific and fair minded than that.

Jon is basing his reasoning on what he knows of current sensors and forming a conclusion. He does not profess to know, he's just interpreting information based on facts and science. I also personally find it useful and helpful, so thank you Jon.

No, he gave us his uninformed opinion of sensor tech coming from an informal 'education' about such technical matters garnered from the internet, forums, patents and other such self taught sources.

He has made several mistakes in his theories before and has often faltered in his knowledge when confronted by somebody with more experience in one particular area, he has no formal education on cameras or their tech.

His opinion is not fact, it is opinion, he usually muddies the two and too many here seem to take his word as gospel, it isn't.

Ouch. Seriously? You're going to mince my own words? I'm not saying he is correct. He is informed based on what he has read about how you measure or calculate DR, based on the DR of the 7D II and the information we have on the 5Ds. He's not stating it as fact - the facts are around the current sensor tech.

He, nor I, not PureClassA are attacking Canon nor you personally. Please stop the personal attack. If he's made mistakes before, gosh I'm sure so have many others on here. Let's keep the focus on what this thread is about, which is whether the 5Ds will be 2 stops better. If you disagree with the formula he used or his interpretation of current sensor data, then share it and I will happily admit that your interpretation is also good and useful.

But let's please avoid comments about whether he is human or not. We all are.

23
Photography Technique / Re: Monument Valley
« on: February 11, 2015, 12:08:26 PM »
Everyone shoots from the visitor center, it's not that interesting. Book a sunrise tour who will bring you to Totem Pole (you are not allowed there going on your own) and make some nice sunrise images from there. When you have more time, you also could consider a short trip to Teardrop Arch and a longer overnight camp on top of Hunts Mesa. That brings in more spectacular images from Monument Valley than shooting from the visitor center, although for all these tours you need to book a Navajo guide too.

Good luck and have fun.

Nope, both times I've done monument (once in the snow) I've done the drive around the valley which is free.... 2nd time I did it I was there pre-dawn. Visitors centre doesn't close, but one entrance to the drive round the valley is so take the exit instead...

Could you expand on that please?

From the car-park in the visitors centre there's a track which leads into the valley. I thought it was free, but maybe there was a charge. It's a couple of hours, with stops, it's through a sand track so more suited to 4wd but i've seen regular vehicles down there.

What you cant strictly do walk off track otherwise i think you risk a fine. It was empty when I was there, so I did walk a little bit off track. If you really want to get up close and unique angles, then you need a tour. I looked at the cost of the overnight and couldn't justify this - although I've seen some great shots from the top of Hunt's Mesa.

Storms in July are amazing, and for me, they add to the "run of the mill" shots in the area...

I'd personally leave Arches to when you have time to do Capitol Reef, Canyonlands & Dead Horse and Escalante.

If you're in Page, I'd do the 1/2 day river trip, and I would also consider Alstrom Point (not as difficult as the book suggests), White Pocket (so long as you are fine deflating/inflating tyres) and the Wave (though I did it in Feb so the lottery was easier!)

Sorry, I was being lazy. It is called The Valley Drive and it's in volume 2 of Martres book.

24
Photography Technique / Re: Monument Valley
« on: February 11, 2015, 12:03:19 PM »
Everyone shoots from the visitor center, it's not that interesting. Book a sunrise tour who will bring you to Totem Pole (you are not allowed there going on your own) and make some nice sunrise images from there. When you have more time, you also could consider a short trip to Teardrop Arch and a longer overnight camp on top of Hunts Mesa. That brings in more spectacular images from Monument Valley than shooting from the visitor center, although for all these tours you need to book a Navajo guide too.

Good luck and have fun.

Nope, both times I've done monument (once in the snow) I've done the drive around the valley which is free.... 2nd time I did it I was there pre-dawn. Visitors centre doesn't close, but one entrance to the drive round the valley is so take the exit instead...

Could you expand on that please?

From the car-park in the visitors centre there's a track which leads into the valley. I thought it was free, but maybe there was a charge. It's a couple of hours, with stops, it's through a sand track so more suited to 4wd but i've seen regular vehicles down there.

What you cant strictly do walk off track otherwise i think you risk a fine. It was empty when I was there, so I did walk a little bit off track. If you really want to get up close and unique angles, then you need a tour. I looked at the cost of the overnight and couldn't justify this - although I've seen some great shots from the top of Hunt's Mesa.

Storms in July are amazing, and for me, they add to the "run of the mill" shots in the area...

I'd personally leave Arches to when you have time to do Capitol Reef, Canyonlands & Dead Horse and Escalante.

If you're in Page, I'd do the 1/2 day river trip, and I would also consider Alstrom Point (not as difficult as the book suggests), White Pocket (so long as you are fine deflating/inflating tyres) and the Wave (though I did it in Feb so the lottery was easier!)

25
EOS Bodies / Re: DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II
« on: February 11, 2015, 11:26:03 AM »
If it does turn out that the 5DS has higher dynamic range - then this will be a major blow to the forum-reputation of all the sensor experts in here who have completely committed themselves to the claim the 5DS will not have higher dynamic range via their dozens of long technical essay posts. They will be completely discredited if the results show higher DR.

Nobody here has a magic crystal sphere - the point of debate is if the 5ds can achieve significantly higher dynamic range without a major tech overhaul in sensor/readout design, or if there are some optimization approaches left that Canon didn't use yet. And we're talking about *usable* dr in the raw image file, not theoretical numbers somewhere up the pipeline.



Some folks here are so staunchly committed to claiming that the 5DS will not have more DR they have stated it as a scientific fact and spent a lot of time writing it out in great technical detail. Creating a case against more DR point by point.


That's perfectly ok. If they turn out to be right. What they say sounds very logical, and accurate. Time will tell, but this and other threads are the record.


 8)

JRista gave us a nice long detailed explanation how DR works, said given what we know now, he doesn't see how it could be improved that much.  Then he said "I hope I'm wrong"   Not sure how you could be more scientific and fair minded than that.

+1

Some people are looking for something more in the words, hoping to find a snippet which indicates something better. Jon is basing his reasoning on what he knows of current sensors and forming a conclusion. He does not profess to know, he's just interpreting information based on facts and science. I also personally find it useful and helpful, so thank you Jon.

Doesn't mean I'm not interested in the 5Ds, doesn't mean I wont consider another body from another manufacturer. I'm intrigued by 4K video on the NX500. I'd look at a A7R II if they fix the compression. Nikon is unlikely to appeal, as I'm not after a 2nd set of glass, nor trading my big whites. As to which I will buy (if any)? Well that depends on what the real-world reviews are. I'm not ditching my Canon gear, but like a few I may supplement it, or I may decide the 5Ds offers enough that the additional DR is not sufficient for me to have 2 vendors in my bag. It's about photography - the gear is more the economics.

I just dont see the point of continual venting on these forums. Vent to Canon as suggested. But make it constructive (comments about your Grandma may not get you noticed)...

26
EOS Bodies / Re: DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II
« on: February 11, 2015, 11:14:58 AM »
Latest update (Feb 10th) from NL is stating Other testers as well are also claiming the 5DS/R has the best Dynamic range of any pro current canon camera.

Ok i think this deserves a CR2 by now.

My grandmother has more DR than any current pro canon camera.

-1

And the benefit of such a comment?

27
EOS Bodies / Re: DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II
« on: February 11, 2015, 11:14:21 AM »
...
Maybe the 5DS will buy them some time to develop a newer sensor. That would be fine with me, since if I had to choose I think  somewhere around 35 MP is plenty of resolution even for landscapes.

Buy them some time how? And how much time?

Lead time for a DSLR like the 5Ds is probably 3 to 4 years - maybe 5.

Does Canon have that long to keep Sony and Nikon at bay?

Hard to tell.

But if the 5Ds doesn't deliver (and neither does the 5D4) in terms of DR and low noise then you'll see more and more people leaving Canon for Nikon/Sony.

Canon is running out of time.

Really? Have you looked at the financial results of Nikon?

What they are looking to do is run a Business. Does it frustrate me in terms of some of their feature decisions? It sure does. But the whole camera market is suffering from skrinkage due to smartphone sales and reducing P&S revenue.

If the 5Ds is based on the 7D II sensor, Canon have likely spent their time maximising yeild at FF size which in turn would no doubt improve yeild on their APS-C. But I dont think they've been doing huge amounts on developing this sensor. And the more I see what they're doing, the more they appear motivated by doing just enough to keep market share - in broad terms. I'm not saying this is the best idea, but it does appear what they are doing. Dual Pixel tech took longer to perfect certainly.

I dont dispute that people will move from Canon to Nikon, Sony, Samsung or whoever. It depends on whether more than "normal" move - if the churn rate goes up, then they might notice and react. For me, it is all about the economics for Canon right now. Whether they have a comparable sensor tech waiting, or whether they are looking at different sensor tech, clearly I don't know. I think they are waiting.

Sounding the death knell for Canon is somewhat premature and based on what you think they need to be successful. The smartphone market is hurting the camera makers more, not 2 stops of DR, and some people moving to other brands because 2 stops is sufficient a reason. For many others, it's not.

28
EOS Bodies / Re: DR from 5Ds will be 2 stop better then 7D mk II
« on: February 11, 2015, 10:55:54 AM »
...
However, I don't use Canon for landscapes. I gave up on shooting landscapes, at least the kinds of landscapes I really like, once I realized how bad Canon's read noise is in my 5D III, and having seen little improvement in the 6D, 70D, 7D II. I don't have much time for landscapes...I certainly can't go driving all about the Colorado Rockies all the time to find amazing vistas, and it's even more difficult to find them with good light. On top of that, I'm putting all my resources into astrophotography these days. With astro, you have no option but to dig way deep into your signal data...and once you do, there is simply no denying the fundamental and radical differences in data quality between Canon...and the rest.
...

Pity that Sony do lossy compression with their raw files (which I hear impacts star trails) or else it might be worth trying an A7-something plus adapter.

+1

Talk about crazy lack of understanding of their target market. Bizarre decision.

29
Photography Technique / Re: Monument Valley
« on: February 11, 2015, 08:04:38 AM »
Everyone shoots from the visitor center, it's not that interesting. Book a sunrise tour who will bring you to Totem Pole (you are not allowed there going on your own) and make some nice sunrise images from there. When you have more time, you also could consider a short trip to Teardrop Arch and a longer overnight camp on top of Hunts Mesa. That brings in more spectacular images from Monument Valley than shooting from the visitor center, although for all these tours you need to book a Navajo guide too.

Good luck and have fun.

Nope, both times I've done monument (once in the snow) I've done the drive around the valley which is free.... 2nd time I did it I was there pre-dawn. Visitors centre doesn't close, but one entrance to the drive round the valley is so take the exit instead...

I'd also seriously consider the lower antelope as well as the upper. Upper gets the crowds, and yes they do try to regulate the other tours but you don't get much time to compose and shoot. I've done upper 3 times and lower 3 times and I prefer lower - you go at your pace. Alas they introduced time limits on lower as well, so negotiate longer as you never seem to complete even half in 2 hours. Lower is cheaper than upper.

Personally, if you don't think this will be your only trip to the area I would focus on 1 section and the locations therein  rather than see all the iconic places in a whistle stop tour. I've been lucky to have been there half a dozen times, still not seen all I want to, and I'm a Brit  ;D

30
Photography Technique / Re: The Southwest
« on: February 11, 2015, 07:42:31 AM »
HI,
Preparing for a photography visit to UT/AZ in August this year. Questions:

1) I am told that there is a lot of sand/dust suspended and dropping in the slot canyons. What would you suggest for simple, cheap camera covers to slip on inside the canyons. Obviously I am planning not to change lenses in there.

2) August will be bright sunshine and long days. So to be able to shoot with good soft light I plan to do most during dawn and dusk. But those days are long and I want to make use of the rest of the day as well. I have never used ND filters, would they be useful for landscapes during this time? I have thought of a 3 stop graduated ND which is likely to be useful but am wondering if a solid ND(non graduated) filter be useful as well to get some more drama into the picture rather than bland pictures at noon etc. And if yes, what stop should I be looking at at?

I have the 5D MK III and might rent another one but don't know which one yet. Lenses: 16-35 F4, 24-70 F2.8L II, 70-200 F/2.8L II

Thanks,
Ray

Ray

As mentioned, grads are good for the mornings and evenings when you get significant differential between the sky and the earth. During the day, this differential goes unless you are shooting in locations where your foreground is dark. In slot canyons, grads are not much benefit as they are regular, whereas the rocks are not, and you're probably better off with blended exposures.

I've been there in July and the storms are excellent, but I'm not sure how august fares in that respect. I've done infra red during the day, but you need the right subject (vegetation helps). To be honest, a lot of the places you might want to get to take a few hours hiking or driving to, plus slots canyons are better during the brightness of the day. I tend to adjust my itinerary so I'm doing the vistas during the morning and the evening, and the day I will look for the slots and the like, with fall back options if there's a storm.

Returning to your question about filters - ND if you'll have water which you want to blur and get a 3 stop. For grads, if you only get 1 then get a 2 stop, if you can afford it then a 3 stop as well. I bought the 3 grad set from lee but rarely use the .3 (1 stop). Also they've just released a thinner circ pola, their previous 105mm vignettes on wide angle lenses...

Finally, if you've not got them, get hold of Laurent Martres' books on photographing the southwest. I take them every time, and use them to plan out locations (and then maybe use the internet to supplement). Have a great trip.

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