November 28, 2014, 08:45:37 AM

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Messages - pedro

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466
@GuyF, risc32 thanks for your concern.

The phenomenum appears in RAW.
Sharpening mode setting is the in camera setting 3.
yes, I applied long expsoure NR, after the picture was taken.

There was a firmware update (1.1.3) out by June but as far as I could read, it did not address the black halo phenomenum.

Here's a full exif sample at mRAW (or is it related to mRAW?)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/7956960556/#in/photostream

The black halos aren't "visible" at print size, but they appear as strange clusters...

Hope Canon gets this fixed by the next firmware update.
Anyone out there having the same problems while doing night sky?
 

467
Hi,
Still enthusiastic about my 5D3 but...Did some night sky photography last night and detected in all the frames black shadows around certain star clusters, no matter what ISO setting it was.

Guess I've seen this in early reports about the 5D3 in March or April. So as I bought it exactly for this kind of photography...What can I do? Did I get a lemon? Serial number: 04230012696. bought the cam on August 27 from a retail dealer...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/7956396466/#in/photostream


Thanks for your help. Cheers, Pedro.

Here's the dpr thread about it
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&message=40779387&changemode=1

468
Fiddled a bit more with my 5D3
Here are two samples
51k, some NR
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/7925036148/#in/photostream
102k, NR: Brightness 11, Chroma: 20, darkened a bit
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/7925050234/#in/photostream

B/W at these ISOs works quite well.

All I was looking for. Plenty of camera.

If we get some 25kish 51k some 6 years down, that'd be awesome!  8)

469
Well, A Usable ISO 51,200 for Color Images.

On the 5D3 I can use 51,200 as my limit for high-speed B&W. ISO 25,600 is my limit for Color Images.

You are right. Color looks way to strange. But converted to BW it just looks decent. The tad of noise stands for a 21st century "filmdays" effect  8)

470
A Usable ISO 51,200.

As mentioned in my recent post, I kinda heard or read about the 1Dx being one stop better at high ISOs. How usable are ISO 51k on the 1Dx? My 5D3 looks promising...yes there is some NR needed, but not that much, well exposed to the right. Anyone?

471
To the OP, if we take a look at Sensorgen.info data on quantum efficiency, we see it increases about 7-8% for every additional stop of ISO. If we follow that trend, assuming Canon can keep increasing Q.E. by about 8% per stop of ISO, and if they can maintain the rate of Q.E. improvement of 16% per 4.5-year cycle...then every 4.5 years we should see two more ISO levels. That would put the next generation at a native ISO 102400 on a sensor with about 57% Q.E. for the 5D IV, and if current statistics hold true, a native ISO of 204800 with about 60% Q.E. for the 1D XI.

Now, the real question is how usable that ISO will be. I am not sure a sustained linear increase of 8% per stop is really going to make an ISO 204800 usable. It'll be better than a digital boost ISO, but dynamic range is going to severely suffer and noise will still be horrendous. I would suspect that we won't see usable ISO 204800 until we are in the 80% Q.E. range, which would greatly improve S/N ratios even in the shadows. I don't know if we can really achieve that level of efficiency in a consumer-grade device, though...to date, its always required far more rigorous constraints on manufacturing quality, and usually requires some kind of active/thermoelectric cooling. Sony Exmor technology, combined with a backilluminated sensor and...really for honest usability...ungodly fast lenses...might make it a possibility. Either way...that would put usable ISO 204800 a good 8-10 years away at the earliest, or about two to two and a half product cycles.
@jrista: Thanks for your insightful comment. It seems like I was "intuitively" on track. As said earlier...If ISO 102k within the next 6 to 8 years gets improved in quality according to your post, it will be a big leap for every photographer. Fiddling with my 51 k and 102k these days I'd be even happy with some 25.6kish ISO 51200 about 6 years from now. It would be about a 2/3or one stop improvement, which I would highly appreciate. I guess it depends on one's type of photography. Coming fromTri-X pan film days, gearing towards Robert Frank and Robert Capa style, I feel pretty happy even at nowadays 51k on my 5D3. The 1Dx, as its said to be one stop better due to less MP, seems to be there already. That is plenty of improvent! Cheers and thanks, Pedro.

472
I suspect this situation will be down to what the R&D/ Marketing bods consider to be the most important feature for that time.

At one time, it was all about fps, AF and/ or megapixels. Now it seems to be about IQ, DR and ISO.

Without a doubt, the current 61pt AF seems to have satisfied most people - and most are happy with the 18-22mp range (note i said 'most' not 'all').

DR, IQ and ISO seem to be very much about the capabilities of the sensor combined with the light processing software used with the sensors.

The ability to improve the sensitivity of a sensor seems almost a given, working on how technology seems to improve. So, that would imply that the software needed to maximise the effectiveness of the newer sensor technology will be the guiding factor.

Will we see ISO listed at 408k or even 816k? I think we will - as H1 & H2 settings on the current 1D series model(s), because ultimately - for some strange reason - a whole load of people seem to want the ability to photograph a black cat in a coal cellar without a tripod or flash.

I like to push the ISO envelope as much as the next person (having spent most of my life doing shift work and using a camera at 3am frequently), but even in film days I found I could push a roll of 3200 to 12800 and hand hold at 1/60th second without too much effort. ISO 6400 on the 5D2 produced a much more acceptable image noise/ grain  wise and with the IS on some of the lenses, allowed me to shoot as slow as 1/20th hand held.

So I'm more than happy with what is currently available - but I wouldn't complain if I were offered more  ;)
soulmate.  8) I'm coming from film days as well. Had a Contax 139 Quartz back in 1982 and later on a short flirt with a Zenza Bronica 6x6. ISO 400 on it looked awesome, and yes I dared to push Tri-x pan to let's say ISO 1600 or 3200. I'm a black cat in a dark cellar type of photographer...The kick lies right there...So I am looking forward to much more improved ISOs in today's range by 2018 and the one or maybe even the other additional H1 and H2-stop... ::)

473
Therefore:
b) What will be the standard high ISO level after the 2 next bodycycles of the 1 and 5 series?
Is it likely, that my extended ISO 102.4k will be the ISO 12.800 or 25600 6-8 years from now, then we would talk about extended ISOs on a 5Dwhatever up to H1 204.8 (like 1Dx now) and H2 409.6k
A 1Dwhatever would even break the million mark by then going up as high as ISO 1.638.400!
Whoever will benefit from such a high ISO...  :o



We are approaching the point where the camera records more than the eye can see.

If you follow the link (I can't seem to get the actual imagine to imbed), you'll find a section from a shot I took with my new 5D3 out the living room window in the dark of night, handheld, at 102K.  Nothing terribly interesting (and rather noisy, although as someone who used 2475 Recording film for years, I don't find it objectionable) unless I tell you that the gap between the tree and bush seen on the left side of the photo was not visible to the naked eye.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/34970367@N03/7909554934#

I hope they put more effort put into improvement in noise and IQ than ISO for a while before continuing to ever more sensitive sensors (which I also look forward to...we're almost to night vision; I look forward to full daylight regardless of the available light level).

More realistically, DxOMark shows the 5DIII as about 2 stops better than the 30D. The 5DIII gets an extra 4/3 of a stop because of the larger full frame sensor, so technology has only moved by about 2/3 of a stop.

That doesn't seem right; if that's really what DxOMark shows, then it isn't as credible a tool as it is given credit for.
Good points here. Quality improvement at high ISOs is paramount. If improvement manages to produce 25600ish ISO 102k within 6-8 years, that'd be great.

474
@CharlieB: I used to shoot the Tri-X Pan back in 1982 with my contax 139 Quartz. And it was awesome. Always was in the low light-high ISO camp. That's why I went 5D3 now. And that is plenty of camera for me! Yes, we are spoiled, therefore looking back to the filmdays gets things in relation to real world situations...Good point
I didn't even hold a camera in 1982 let alone own one ... back in 1982 if someone were to ask me "what is an f stop?", I would've thought it is some new bus top :) ... I actually touched a camera for the first time in 1985 and fell in love. But coming to the point of spoiled, yes we are ... I've seen some of the SLR cameras of 70s & 80s they were small but I haven't heard anyone complain about their size ... now people hold a 650D & D3200 DSLRs and complain that they are "tiny", as if these people are the size of Hagrid of Hogwarts.

LOL...Just realized after posting this, that the shutter of my first DSLR finally ceased to work after 18-19 years (!). But by then by 2001, I didn't realize what the cause for it was... ::) So by 2002/03 I went digital buying a Sony DSC-P 30 (?), a 3.2 MP cam. I took about 50.000 pictures before it retired. By 2005 I bought a Sony DSC-F 828. Only to break it within a year while slipping off on ice. About a year later I went back to DSLRs via 30D and so, here we are again, going FF after 30 years...Awesome.

475
@CharlieB: I used to shoot the Tri-X Pan back in 1982 with my contax 139 Quartz. And it was awesome. Always was in the low light-high ISO camp. That's why I went 5D3 now. And that is plenty of camera for me! Yes, we are spoiled, therefore looking back to the filmdays gets things in relation to real world situations...Good point

476
"Despite all our "oh I wish I had that feature" comments, the current technology itself is already awesome ... imagine what an Ansel Adams would have done with the current cameras/lenses ... who knows 6 - 8 years from now there could be some very revolutionary advancements that could very well surprise us."[/quote][/b]
Yes. And as I stated: I am absolutely crazy, about the capacity of this cam. Due to rain over here, I cannot go out to do nightskyphotography. This is the next step at ISO 6400 and 12800.  8)

477
Hi,
Just picked up the 5D3 this week and got some time to fiddle with it last night.
Upgrading from a 30D I am overwhelmed by the results as I went for the high ISOs 6.4k-102.4k!

a) My first impression:
The 5d3 vs the 30D delievers about 4 stops better high ISOs in RAW, which to me  is a huge step!
51.2k without NR still seems to look better than ISO 3200 on a 30D, both exposed to the right.
ISO 12800 is a no brainer now! Even without NR, if well exposed.
Even a 102.4k image is kind of "doable", although with some heavy NR, but I am geared toward Robert Capa and Robert Frank Style photography, so there is no problem with some noise for me. I do everything in DPP and convert b/ws using an old CS2.
The 5D3 is absolutely worth its money from my point of view and a tremendous camera!

Therefore:
b) What will be the standard high ISO level after the 2 next bodycycles of the 1 and 5 series?
Is it likely, that my extended ISO 102.4k will be the ISO 12.800 or 25600 6-8 years from now, then we would talk about extended ISOs on a 5Dwhatever up to H1 204.8 (like 1Dx now) and H2 409.6k
A 1Dwhatever would even break the million mark by then going up as high as ISO 1.638.400!
Whoever will benefit from such a high ISO...  :o
Does all that seem likely according to porbable upcoming sensor tech improvements or is that too much of wishful thinking?

I am not too much into tech. So, what do you think? Any corrections and contrary/more realistic input is highly appreciated.

Anyway, the 5D3 rocks!  8)
Cheers, Pedro

It seems that any new camera body is two stops better than the previous one, but these "improvements" don't apply additively (e.g. 3  generations of camera doesn't bring a 6 stop improvement).

More realistically, DxOMark shows the 5DIII as about 2 stops better than the 30D. The 5DIII gets an extra 4/3 of a stop because of the larger full frame sensor, so technology has only moved by about 2/3 of a stop.

If it were the case that technology has really improved by 1.5 stops or more, the new APS-C bodies would have better image quality than the 5DC.

So to answer your question, I'd say 6 years from now, another 2/3 of a stop improvement in ISO performance. In terms of how much ISO can be turned up, it wouldn't surprise me if you can more or less turn it up as high as you want.
So in terms of real improvement, this would at least give us almost ISO 51k equivelant to today's ISO 25.600. This being the new "native" ISO range, 4 to 6 years frow now, would be very impressive! According this pace an 1Dxish body by then will have a probable extension to insane ISO 408k, or as it was stated abe, have nicely improved ISO 204k. Time surely will tell.

478
If we are going to see a revolution in high iso improvement then we are going to need some new sensor technology, especially if we want to see higher megapixel cameras.

With current tech less is better in the MP battle in regards to high iso. Nikon D3s is still the best out there and only has 10mp. 

Without a breakthrough in sensor tech we probably will only see marginal improvements in high iso noise performance.

One thing I will add is that it's not all about noise at high iso. Resolution is a big part of it. While my 5diii is not much better at noise then my 5dii or 1div, the detail retention is far better. This allows me to have better noise management when I push the iso.
Detail retention is paramount. Good point. BTW My impressions about my first test shots are based on MRAWs. As my PC is kinda old. So I only go for full resolution if needed (e.g. nightsky) Therefore my conclusions might be slightly biased. So we may just hope that within the next two (second seems more likely) Canon deliever new sensor tech. Or at last, an improved design according to the 1Dx sensor.

479
Oh yeah. That's a good argument. So, let's hope for a RAW ISO 51.2k/102.4k equivalent to the 25.6k today, within the next eight years. As the 1Dx due to its 18MP stands about 1 stop above the 5D3 at 22MP. This could seem quite likely to be reached. Either way, I love my 5D3. 8)

480
Hi,
Just picked up the 5D3 this week and got some time to fiddle with it last night.
Upgrading from a 30D I am overwhelmed by the results as I went for the high ISOs 6.4k-102.4k!

a) My first impression:
The 5d3 vs the 30D delievers about 4 stops better high ISOs in RAW, which to me  is a huge step!
51.2k without NR still seems to look better than ISO 3200 on a 30D, both exposed to the right.
ISO 12800 is a no brainer now! Even without NR, if well exposed.
Even a 102.4k image is kind of "doable", although with some heavy NR, but I am geared toward Robert Capa and Robert Frank Style photography, so there is no problem with some noise for me. I do everything in DPP and convert b/ws using an old CS2.
The 5D3 is absolutely worth its money from my point of view and a tremendous camera!

Therefore:
b) What will be the standard high ISO level after the 2 next bodycycles of the 1 and 5 series?
Is it likely, that my extended ISO 102.4k will be the ISO 12.800 or 25600 6-8 years from now, then we would talk about extended ISOs on a 5Dwhatever up to H1 204.8 (like 1Dx now) and H2 409.6k
A 1Dwhatever would even break the million mark by then going up as high as ISO 1.638.400!
Whoever will benefit from such a high ISO...  :o
Does all that seem likely according to porbable upcoming sensor tech improvements or is that too much of wishful thinking?

I am not too much into tech. So, what do you think? Any corrections and contrary/more realistic input is highly appreciated.

Anyway, the 5D3 rocks!  8)
Cheers, Pedro



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