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Messages - dtaylor

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EOS Bodies / Re: Do Sensors sell the Camera?
« on: August 27, 2014, 09:50:18 PM »
How do those touting Exmor advantages demonstrate them?  They underexpose by 4-5 stops then push the shadows back up.  While there are valid reasons to do that, it's an 'advantage' that's totally useless to the vast majority of dSLR buyers.

It's essentially an emergency recovery tool for badly underexposed photos. High quality landscape work...where extended DR is often needed...is simply not produced this way. You bracket and blend/HDR, or use GND filters.

This goes back to the reason for the common advice to ETTR: there are few tonal values in the deep shadows. Sometimes I am surprised and find that I can process a single file where I shot expecting to HDR. But if I have to push shadows more then 2...maybe 2.5 stops...I find that the problem is not Canon sensor noise, but the simple fact that the tonality and detail is sub par vs. a properly produced shot.

EOS Bodies / Re: Do Sensors Make the Camera?
« on: August 27, 2014, 05:37:02 PM »
If the 5D III is not cleaning up as well as your 7D, there is something very wrong with your 5D III, or there's a setting off in your software. I use Lightroom for processing, and with the most recent version, the difference between Canon FF and 7D detail recovery is massive.

I wouldn't necessarily say massive, but concur that a 5D3 recovers better then a 7D.

Yeah, I think it's clear Canon is going to sit tight with their conservative designs. More and more they are becoming like Toyota, competent and comfortable, but living off their peak of 2001-2005.

Can Canon change their ADC arrangement to eliminate deep shadow noise without running afoul of Sony's patent? Can they do so with their current fab situation (whatever that might be)? Are the yields economical at this time given that this is a feature much debated on forums, but only actually used by a small minority?

EOS Bodies / Re: Do Sensors Make the Camera?
« on: August 27, 2014, 05:30:21 PM »
The Nikon image has pitch black shadows. It's the back sides of the bed, the back side of the desk, and the back side of the curtain. It was over a +5 stop lift, according to the guy who made the images.

They all have some pitch black shadows. But overall the Nikon photo is much closer to your sunflower shot that was given more exposure and the 70D shot. If you shove the brightness on your monitor all the way up, those three files all have quite a bit in their shadows before they are pushed. Your darkest sunflower shot? Nothing but some very dark "blocks" around the locations of sunflowers. (Looks interesting actually, like an old Atari game got scaled up.)

I'm not saying Exmor would have the same noise had it received less exposure. But in my experience you do not want to have to push shadows that hard. Tonality and fine detail are nothing like a proper HDR shot because, as you yourself pointed out, there are very few tonal levels in those last few bits. I generally run into this before I run into noise issues on Canon sensors. I contend that if your darkest sunflower shot was made on a D8x0 that it would have very little shadow noise, but also not look anything like the HDR shots you admire.

What all of these threads are missing is a series of controlled underexposure tests with Canon and Exmor pushed back up to see exactly what one gets at each push (+1, +2, +3, +4, +5, +6). I would be interested in going to a park and shooting that series and providing the RAW files for review, but it would have to wait until a weekend when I can borrow my friend's D800. I know he's using it for paid work for the next couple of weekends.

As for my file, have at it: http://1drv.ms/1vmTXXq

Thank you. I'm getting roughly the same results.

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Fun Arias rant on APS-C vs. FF
« on: August 27, 2014, 11:00:40 AM »
As unfocused stated in a different context- you let your keyboard run off before your brain and now you have to keep it up... (paraphrasing)

You can always tell that someone is about to provide a rational and logical proof of their statements when they open with personal insults  ;D

1. I did not drop images into PS and zoom to 100%. As I clearly stated before, I set the image full screen on a 24" monitor to see how it looks. Being higher resolution, the 7D gains an advantage in terms of pixel downsampling,

That depends entirely on the program used to view the samples and the scaling to screen resolution. Some popular viewers will chew up files, Apple's Preview being an infamous one. In print I would agree.

2. My comments about the 7D noise is not an opinion, it is an observation.

To others it is an opinion until you provide examples.

What would be my reason for doing that?

Oh, I believe that when you looked at your screen you saw noisy images. It just doesn't mean what you think it means.

3. Your guess was I don't know how to compare images. Well, as a scientist...blah blah blah...I am fortunate that the expert reviewers that accepted my work for publication didn't share your view!

One has zero to do with the other. That said, I have an honest question: are you this defensive when someone critiques your scientific work?

Now, less cross-examine your rants:

Oh boy here we go!  ;D

4. You still haven't cited any "reproducible" tests or shown any of your own images.

Just head on over to DPReview or Imaging Resource.

You really expect someone to comment on those low-res images without any ISO information?

Those are 50% views of one of the Imaging Resource studio test scenes. I remember which cameras I picked...but now I forget the order...hmmm...guess that was Arias' point  ;D

If you're so convinced, why not post some of your OWN 7D images at ISO 1600 without any de-noising.

And listen to all the whining that I didn't do X or Y or Z right and that must be the reason it looks good but FF SURELY would be better if I had just shot it at the same time???

Nah...just go look at professionally produced and unbiased results. IR's studio scene can vary in lighting, but their Dave Box scene is strictly controlled.

And he is annoying and obnoxious. But he feels like a sweetheart compared to you.

Let's get down to it, shall we? You said the 7D was noisier then the 5Dc and 50D. I said professional tests showed otherwise. You got hurt that I contradicted you. The rest of this is fluff.

So...is no one ever supposed to contradict you online? Point you to evidence that shows something other then your opinion? Is this how you practice science?

I made a subjective comment, stating my observation with my own camera. And you keep trying to prove that I have an 'opinion' against the 7D based on 'what?

Not at all. Just pointing out your opinion is contradicted by hard evidence and is likely due to some other factor.

how you are making a normal, civil discussion into a fight.

First you say that. Then you say...

7. I am surprised human nature sometimes amazes you. It should always amaze you, considering how foreign it should feel...

Who is starting a fight? And who, btw, is blatantly violating forum rules? Did I personally attack you or insult you once? You've done it three times now in this one response.

If you can't handle the possibility of disagreement then maybe you shouldn't offer your opinion  ;)

Post Processing / Re: Noise, shadows, etc.
« on: August 27, 2014, 08:50:56 AM »
I don't actually rate Lr/ACR as highly as I used to in terms of noise handling, and give the nod to Capture One these days.

Keith - have you noticed any resolution/fine detail differences between Capture One and ACR? I only ask because the thing that made me an ACR fan was that I noticed a substantial fine detail gain with my 7D over DPP. (Not sure if that's still the case.)

For some reason I had it in my head that Capture One was expensive, but it's not. I'm going to have to give it a try.

EOS Bodies / Re: Do Sensors Make the Camera?
« on: August 27, 2014, 08:37:37 AM »
The thing your missing is that detail buried in "shadow" isn't the problem. It's detail buried in READ NOISE that's the problem. "Shadows" extend for hundreds to thousands of levels...read noise usually only intrudes a dozen or so levels into the deepest of shadows. It's those very deep shadows that mark the difference between a Canon sensor and an Exmor.

The image you edited is more along the lines of this:

Your Nikon example is also more along those lines. Your sunflower shot with all the color noise is pitch black before being pushed. The bedroom scene, night scene, and sunflower shot without all the color noise are not pitch black. You can see some shadow detail in all of them.

Honest questions...not trying to pick a fight after the last thread...what RAW converter are you using on the sunflowers? What NR settings did you set in the converter itself (not in post)? Are you willing to provide the "pitch black" RAW file for others to try their hand at?

EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 26, 2014, 12:24:55 AM »
Just out of curiosity, how did you determine the density of negatives? How accurate were the measurements?

Densitometers. Depended on the model and calibration.

EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 26, 2014, 12:10:24 AM »
I had one back in the good old days of the B+W darkroom.... I kind of wish I had one now because this has gotten me very curious as to how my various cameras compare... I might have to order one :) (any recommendations?)

http://www.stouffer.net/TransPage.htm - T4110.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought of "stops" as an analog/perception scale and that it did not necessarily match up with a digital scale... perhaps part of the confusion here is that people are talking about two different things yet using the same terminology.

Close. Stops apply in digital photography, but there's no direct translation from sensel SNR (or any of the related engineering formulas) to photographic dynamic range in stops. You have to test the system. There are multiple reasons why but...this thread is already painfully long.

Post Processing / Re: Noise, shadows, etc.
« on: August 25, 2014, 11:59:08 PM »
Instead, I'd like to know what techniques people use to reduce noise, banding, etc. etc. What post processing tricks do you employ in Raw, Lightroom or Photoshop to fix noise issues?

One thing I do is try to minimize noise in ACR before the file is converted for PS. 3rd party plugins have some of their own advantages, but if you can clean it up in RAW it seems to be better in my experience.

So I will tailor the luminance and color NR related sliders to the image while viewing at 100%. If you need to, you can use the adjustment brush to tailor NR in specific areas. Or produce two files from the RAW and blend.

Luminance NR can obviously destroy detail, so you have to be careful, but color NR seems pretty effective and relatively non-destructive.

EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 25, 2014, 11:26:07 PM »
Hmm...really? I guess my time out in the field...literally...yesterday, gathering bracketed shots and doing HDR processing was just all a waste then:

So you can produce an HDR image, you just can't recognize when HDR was used on an image. Check.

Now try your same test with a D800. When you realize the results aren't much better then a 5D3 with NR we can be done with this nonsense.

EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 25, 2014, 11:20:13 PM »
0-16384 (14 bit ADC) is infinity?  ???

Do you need an education in basic mathematics?

What happens when you divide any number by zero?

Division has nothing to do with it. 0 is the first tonal step. 1 is the next. 2 is the...you get the point. Your formula is not a formula for photographic dynamic range.

EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 25, 2014, 11:17:39 PM »
You might want to take a peek at the end of the "Beautiful sunsets" thread...

I'm literally shocked. If someone else had posted that from a D800 he would have insisted it was a single frame.

So we're not actually dealing with complete ignorance about HDR, just an unshakable belief that Exmor sensors can some how do the impossible and deliver similar results from a single exposure. Interesting.

Well, let him blow $3g's on a D810 and find out.

EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 25, 2014, 11:07:17 PM »
No denying that Exmor sensor will do better in this situation, but don't expect miracle from them. If you lift 5 stops of shadow you end up with plenty of noise, color aberration and loss of detail. It will be something similar to your 3 stop recovery and denoise. The other thing that happens is that shadow lifted areas will be distastefully bland with lack of contrast and muted color. So, you will need more processing (selective contrast enhancement, color boosting, color correction etc) in addition to NR in the shadow lifted areas to make it presentable.

1,000x this. You will not get the same fine detail, tonality, or color when pushing shadows hard as you will with HDR/blending/GND. ETTR is not actually about noise, but tonality. So what happens when you ETTL and push 5 stops? Blocked up, dull tonality.

Exmor certainly does not solve this. It makes life easier when you're going to push a couple stops. And it makes substandard images when someone blindly thinks they can push 5 stops all the time.

EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 25, 2014, 10:54:49 PM »
Fine with me, though. I'll pick up a D810 and a 14-24 at some point for my landscapes (it's really tough, buying for both terrestrial and astro photography...you really pick and choose what to buy and when...so God only knows when I'll actually buy the darn thing.)

Please. When you still don't get the shots those guys are getting, Google "HDR Tutorial"  ;)

EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 25, 2014, 10:50:56 PM »
The definition is incomplete and inconsistent.

MIT doesn't think so.

jrista, it's obvious you've never shot a step wedge, and it's also now plainly obvious you have no experience with HDR photography (all techniques since you recognize none of them: HDR software, manual blending, and GND filters).

You need to stop arguing and start learning. I am not going to continue to debate something that I have fully defended and referenced, something which is consistent with observable evidence including evidence you yourself posted. This is becoming worse then debating a moon landing conspiracy theorist  :(

Shoot a step wedge and learn.

Technically speaking, the lowest level in every sensor is black, or ZERO. By EVERY definition of dynamic range, the range from zero to any number is INFINITY.

0-16384 (14 bit ADC) is infinity?  ???

Do you need an education in basic mathematics?

So far, you, and everyone else who offers some description of "Photographic DR", has not defined how you determine the lowest level, from which  you can then define a range from that to the white point.

I pointed you to a book from MIT that defines it, explains how to test it, and explains how to interpret the results. This is no longer open for debate until you actually make an effort to learn and understand.

You can spend hours carefully reducing the noise present in a Canon image,

Hours? It takes you hours to move sliders in ACR? Or in a worst case scenario mask shadows and run a 3rd party NR plugin? Hours?  ???

Enough...you are arguing just to argue. You need to actually learn about dynamic range and high dynamic range photography. That won't happen while you're being stubborn and argumentative on a forum.

Google "HDR tutorial" and learn how to achieve the shots you want.

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