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Messages - Meh

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Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 13, 2013, 08:48:30 AM »
Hmm... in 2008 I bought CS4 Design Premium for around $400 (as a student).  I still use it five years on.

With the new CC subscription, the cost of ownership by now would have been around $1800.  If I had remained a student from 2008 until now it would have cost me $720 (they offer 60% discount for students).  But I was only a student for one year (mid-life crisis), meaning the price from then until now would have been $1584.

I know which model I prefer.

As a side note: to those that had CS4, but now use CS6, are there many improvements between the two versions?  If there's enough incentive, I'll just buy a student copy of CS6 DP while I still can (my wife's now the student)... it's still $400...

Having your wife buy PS at the student price for you, who is not a student, is essentially pirating the software.  If you're willing to pirate the software part way, why not just go all the way and download it from the net for free. 

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 13, 2013, 08:45:00 AM »
I'm not really sure why this matters though. Can't people just use CS6? I bet that most people could do their photoshopping using the old & now free CS2.

If Adobe is not willing to bring offline software like Photoshop CS6 Extended on the market and enables the download for the new camera raw updates then I change to another product.

Why? Why not just use CS6? Is there something superior offered by another company?

Yes, they can keep using CS6 for years to come.  No, there is nothing superior offered by another company.  Despite some people's claims about how Adobe has bungled every release and will be out of business soon, PS is the undisputed champ of photo editing software.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 11, 2013, 05:27:31 PM »
...So far I see subscription as more affordable way to get an expensive software even if it means paying more in the long term.

Except that with the "Creative Cloud" system it is not a more affordable way to get expensive software. The "affordable" model Adobe instituted and followed for at least two decades was the "upgrade" path. Make your initial investment in the software and then, over time, you can receive discounted upgrades and expansions, until ultimately, you have a full suite of software available to you at a substantial savings.

You could not possibly have missed Ladislav's point any more, which was it's a more affordable way to get into the software since there is no one time outlay for the first purchase... the monthly payment plan spreads out your total cost in even predictable amounts at regular intervals which is more manageable even though the total cost over a longer period of time is higher.  Like leasing a car.

I haven't read every single post on this topic, but has anyone considered the tax benefit of the subscription model.  If you make any money at all from photography, I presume you write off expenses.  The monthly payments would be fully deductible each year.

The other thing I've noticed is many people are comparing the sum of monthly payments compared to upgrading at $199 every 24 months.  First of all, the upgrade cycle was not always 24 months it was closer to 18-20 month on average I believe.  Second, correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it only the CS6 upgrade that was $199 and previous upgrade prices were around $300?  Regardless of that, there is no certainty that if Adobe continued to sell boxed upgrades that it would have been $199 in the future, eventually the price would go up.  So it's hard to say what the long term cost of maintaining a current version of PS would cost over the next 10 years.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe Creative Cloud - Adobe Owns you!
« on: May 11, 2013, 02:57:03 AM »
Not really the same thing.  If a website goes down, you've lost access to articles.  Yes, I'd expect them to extend your subscription if it is down for very long, but frankly, even if the site went away, the only thing you've actually lost is the last month's subscription fee, or the last year's fee if you were subscribing on an annual basis.  It's peanuts.

Of course it's the same thing... you're just arbitrarily choosing to place higher importance on one than the other as a differentiating factor.  This whole argument about needing to go back and access working PSD files long into the future is also very arbitrary.  Well, what if I've been paying for my diglloyd, been using some techniques to get some shots, then in the future I want to go back and use the technique again but need to refresh my memory but the web site is shut down or I let my subscription lapse.  Same thing more or less.

Anyway, my point is only that you have a guy who is complaining about Adobe's new model when he uses a very similar (essentially the same) model for selling information... the traditional way people bought information was in a book that they now "owned" and regardless if the publisher went out of business or stop publishing the book the purchaser still had their book and the information in it.  Is that not the argument that's being used against Adobe's CC model.  Meanwhile, the guy complaining in his article has abandoned the traditional model of selling information in favor of a subscription model.

And like many before you in these threads, you're bringing up the "what if Adobe goes out of business"...  yes it could happen but it's not likely and wouldn't be without warning since as a public company there would be many news announcements and we'd be able to see their earnings fall quarter after quarter.  So please enough of the doomsday scenarios. 

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe Creative Cloud - Adobe Owns you!
« on: May 11, 2013, 12:19:33 AM »
It just occurred to me... just like so many have complained about "renting" vs. "owning" software, the diglloyd article also complains about making an investment into software that is only rented and what if Adobe decides down the road to shut down CC... sucks to just rent software, pay month after month, year after year, and then poof no more access.  Well... does anyone here subscribe to diglloyd... he charges fees but his website does not allow any downloads as pdf etc. and you have to be connected to the web to read his articles.  Well what happens after months and years of subscribing he shuts it down and I can't access the information I paid for... well, guess I was just renting it and too bad for me right.  What if his site goes down for a week, does he reimburse all his subscribers for the lost time they paid for... I should hope so if he's going to complain about Adobe for having the same effin rental model he himself uses!

Here's a link to his page with details of his information rental business...


And a quote...  "Yes, this publishing model is unusual. However, it has worked well for thousands of subscribers for eight years and is well-suited to the ongoing additions"

So... his unusual model works well for some users and works well for ongoing additions.  Hmmmm.... just like Creative Cloud.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe Creative Cloud - Adobe Owns you!
« on: May 10, 2013, 11:52:08 PM »
Since it showed up in so many blog posts, news feeds, etc. I finally took a read at the article posted by diglloyd.  Regarding his first item "Stealing your name or trademark" his interpretation of the language in the Terms of Use is way off base.   In no way does it say Adobe has the right to give a registered trademark of yours to someone else or use it for their own purposes.  That would be illegal and Adobe's contract can not supercede the law.

It only says that you may be required to create a unique url which you can imagine would be for your personal web page at Adobe.com to display something.  Let's say I come along and create my unique url and choose "TheRollingStones.adobe.com" or as someone else posted "DisneyStudios.adobe.com".  Adobe needs a clause in their EULA to give them the right to disallow you to use that and subsequently allow the rightful owner of the trademarked name to use it.

Or maybe someone creates their url with profanity in it, or references to illegal images, or hate language, or "AdobeSucks.adobe.com".   They wouldn't want any of those for obvious reasons and need the right to terminate your use of it.

If diglloyd comes along and properly used diglloyd.adobe.com they would not disallow him that as they would have no reason.  But if I come along and register diglloyd.adobe.com he might be thankful they have that clause in there so he can stop my use of it.

It may seem one-sided in Adobe's favor but in reality it just gives them the authority to do the right thing in the case of abuses or improper use by users.

As for the other complaints in the article they too are stretches but not quite so off base.   The issue with the service being down is a legitimate concern except that you are not working in the cloud.  You would only have a problem if their system was down and you needed to download an application that wasn't already installed on your machine.  But that is unlikely and ultimately they have to protect themselves because it's not inconceivable they will have an outage and without that clause (which is a form of an indemnity clause and those are in just about every licence agreement) they'd have thousands of frivolous lawsuits on their hands which would cost millions just defending them.

The entire article is an over reaction just has been most of the ranting and raving about CC.  The complaint that it's more expensive is valid but it's not that much more expensive.  The overall cost difference is on the order of $100-200 dollars per year for people who use just PS and upgrade every other release or less.  Some of the reactions make it sound like this is going to cost thousands of dollars per year and make PS inaccessible to photographers.

The overreactions come down to the simple fact that some people just don't like change and get all baked at the mere thought that they are losing control and bad things might happen no matter how unlikely they may be.  OMG, Adobe might steal my trademark and I just can't risk the possibility of that... seriously man, how do you leave the house... do you know what the likliehood of dying in a car crash is every time you drive?  Much much higher than Adobe stealing your trademark!

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 10, 2013, 10:16:27 AM »
I just love the thread, in this thread, in which people are whining that this is huge increase in cost because they are happily still using CS3, 4, whatever and since they don't upgrade often Adobe is evil by forcing them to upgrade to the CC versions.   Clearly you should just keep using what you're using and/or upgrade to CS6 whenever you need or want to because Adobe has clearly stated they will keep selling CS6 indefinitely.

The entire BS about having no options in the future is complete and utter nonsense.  You can buy PS Elements and open and edit your PSD files.  I've never used Elements but the general view I've read is that it does most of what PS does and if that's true then perhaps the current version already does much more than previous versions of PS... if money is the issue because you can't afford it, because your'e retired, or you don't need all the fancy new features of every PS release, etc. etc. etc. then wouldn't PS Elements be your logical next upgrade anyway?

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 10, 2013, 10:05:31 AM »
Some people just don't want to see it.  But yes... for MOST people it is a doubling of price and ultimately that cost has to be absorbed or passed on to the consumer

MOST people?  What are you basing that on... the handful of people who just can't stop whining in this thread?  Or because you don't like and want to think you are typical, normal, average, and that your views are correct you want to believe MOST people must see it your way?  Perhaps it is YOU that just doesn't want to see that it isn't nearly as bad as you are making it out to be.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 07, 2013, 02:57:32 PM »
And no, you won't have any warning they are going away, unless you are an insider.  They DO go poof in the middle of the night.

Outside of the financial industry, it is very rare that a major corporation suddenly and without warning shuts it doors and leaves all customers out in the cold.

Hah! Do you know how many game companies and other software companies have gone under??
When it comes to that most are too bedraggled and desperate to even care about trying to toss out patches to remove protection (or still hoping that someone will buy them or certain items out inthe future and too afraid of losing out on that chance).

Same for music. Music Giants went under. Anyone who wasn't lucky enough to have updated the license on all their songs before they went under got stuck with tens, hundreds of useless music files (and even those files will go away unless you losslessly burn them and then losslessly re-capture them from disc before your current computer changes too much and the rights go away again). RIAA never bothered to help anyone get what they had bought back either, they were just like cool haha now they all have to buy stuff a second time.

I know of many.  But my point is not many "major corporations" suddenly and without warning shut their doors with no opportunity for customers to take appropriate action.  The comment I was responding to suggested that if Adobe ever went bankrupt users would suddenly lose their image files and have to tell customers that their photos were lost.  Not going to happen.  If Adobe went bankrupt the world would have plenty of notice... they are a public company that reports quarterly, we would see their revenue and profit falling and that would be due to poor sales due to loss of customers likely due to poor products that less and less people want to use, etc. etc.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 07, 2013, 02:52:04 PM »

Onward and upward dudes!  To the cloud!

Yeah how much did you get paid to parrot that silly slogan hah.
Such a silly name too, makes something very old in the world of computing sound new and fresh and exciting (OK maybe not a silly name, but a sneaky one).

LOL nothing, I just happen to think

a) This type of thing is inevitable and if done right (eventually) can be beneficial to everyone including customers.  If Adobe products are no longer superior and pricing is too high then competition will appear and catch up.

b) The $20 per month for PS and $50 for everything is not as bad a deal as everyone is making it out to be.  Yes, it's more money and for those that do not upgrade every release it's quite  abit more.  But there's added value in the new model for some users especially those with a desktop and laptop as they get to install to two machines.

Calling it Creative Cloud is a bit of spin since they are not really cloud applications but there is a cloud component.  And besides, if they really were cloud apps that would be bad.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 06, 2013, 11:25:56 PM »
Rent-Only software sucks!

Yes, renting sucks...except that it doesn't, for the landlord.  When it comes right down to it, that's why this is happening.

And like it or not, software subscription models are an inevitable outcome of the digital age because the systems are now available to make it work and it's a tool against piracy.  All we can hope for, which is no different than at any time, is that healthy competition keeps things in check.  If, as people are screaming, Adobe's pricing is crazy, insane, unreasonable, etc. then we should see some competition eventually.  Bring it on and let's see how good our tools can get.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 06, 2013, 11:18:05 PM »
And no, you won't have any warning they are going away, unless you are an insider.  They DO go poof in the middle of the night.

Outside of the financial industry, it is very rare that a major corporation suddenly and without warning shuts it doors and leaves all customers out in the cold.

Meaning that if you take your photography business seriously, you have to freeze your baseline right here, and can no longer rely on their products beyond where we are at.  So there will be no updates, no new RAW converters.  That is the fast track to the grave for Adobe.  Self fulfilling prophecy.

Although I imagine that most of the younger folks will be seduced by the latest and greatest.  Until they get burned, that is.  But then, I was in the personal computer industry back when the 8080 was the latest and greatest, and Bill Gates was still in knickers.  So I've already been burned, and won't trust any of these companies.

The Cloud - a mainframe (even if it is made up of distributed elements) by any other name is still something outside your control.  Do you really want to go back there?  What's next - punch cards?

Again, the falling sky will get us all.  Good grief.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 06, 2013, 10:44:20 PM »
A couple of thoughts.

1. With the subscription only model, what incentive does that give Adobe to innovate and come up with NEW features and bug fixes? I mean, the main reason people updated was new features. If they have you the short and curlies renting the software, what incentive do they have then to come out with regular and meaningful updates on a regular basis?

That's reasonable concern.  The answer is competition.  If Adobe falls behind in features, performance, etc. competitors will rise up.

Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 06, 2013, 10:40:41 PM »
People please!  You never owned software, what you always bought was a license with only a time limited assurance of support, bug fixes, etc.  Then you upgrade to the next version at semi-regular intervals and so it goes on for eternity.

No, I bought that software and I expect it to function as purchased FOREVER - on my stand-alone machine that has no connectivity to the outside world.

Support, bug fixes, etc. are options I can chose to forgo, or pay for, my choice.

The real problem is that when Adobe goes bankrupt in 5 years and the license servers go off line, every one of their subscribers is SOL.  It's happened before, it will happen again.

Which is why the cloud subscription model is a loser for anyone who cares about what they are using/doing/counting on.  A business person (eg: professional photographer) who uses Adobe is rolling the dice with their livelihood.  Bad move.  You're not a secured creditor, they owe you nothing when they fail, and your customers are not going to be amused when you tell them that all those photos you were going to have for them aren't going to show up.

Onward and upward?  More like downward to the netherworld.

Oh bollocks!

The software that you currently own WILL work forever on your machine.  No one is forcing you to upgrade to CC.

You want choice... that was part of my original point, people are resistant to change, don't like new models, demand choice, demand control over everything.

Adobe goes bankrupt?  It could, but you images are not lost, your RAW files are not lost.  You have to back them all up just like you do now.  No difference there.  Ok, so you Adobe software stops working after a while but even under the current perpetual license versions you'd eventually (and within a relatively short time) have to move to another product to stay current with features etc.   And besides, when companies fail they don't go poof in the middle of the night... you'd have some warning... you're not going to suddenly have to tell your customers their photos have been lost forever in a black hole.


Software & Accessories / Re: Adobe to Stop Making Packaged Software
« on: May 06, 2013, 10:31:37 PM »

Onward and upward dudes!  To the cloud!
Yes. But not at $50 a month! That is a ripoff. Plus it should be configurable. Just like now to pick and choose what one wants.

Under the new subscription model you can pick and choose what you want.  Currently it's $20 per month for individual apps and if you need 3 or more apps you can just pay $49 and get everything else for FREE if you want to use them.  You just have to compare what you are paying now, for upgrades, over time and compare to paying the monthly fee.

There are reports today that Adobe said it was going to reduce the single application price down to $10 per month when CC is released.  If so, if you use 4 or less apps you go for the singles, and once you hit 5 you pay the package price and get everything.

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