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Messages - Meh

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601
Last time looked, DPR's numbers for DR were based on in-camera JPG shots of a step wedge. If that's no longer the case, happy to hear it. If they're still doing that...need I say more?

Actually that´s (imho) closer to reality then the 12-13 Stops from DXO Mark.

8.x EV (9.x with Raw Headroom) seem to be what i can achieve with my 1D MK4.
But i sure come nowhere near the 12 Stops from DXO Mark.

Quote from: DPreview
Our Dynamic Range measurement system involves shooting a calibrated Stouffer Step Wedge (13 stops total range) which is backlit using a daylight balanced lamp (98 CRI). A single shot of this produces a gray scale wedge from the camera's clipped white point down to black (example below). Each step of the scale is equivalent to 1/3 EV (a third of a stop), we select one step as 'middle gray' (defined as 50% luminance) and measure outwards to define the dynamic range. Hence there are 'two sides' to our results, the amount of shadow range (below middle gray) and the amount of highlight range (above middle gray).



Quote
That would explain why every camera was measured to have around 8 stops of DR... no matter what the actual dynamic range recorded by the camera they are all converted to the standard jpg file format with 256 levels per colour channel.

Sonys Sensor is measured with 9.4 EV.

I think the point is more about the fact that DPR is using jpeps for the test rather than the fact they're doing a real world visual test by shooting the step wedge and counting the number of stops above and below middle gray before detail is lost.  My understanding (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) that the jpeg transfer function sacrifices shadow and highlight detail in favor of preserving detail in the middle tones.  Something has to be lost to reduce file size and highlight and shadow detail is the least important.  The earlier clipping of the shadow and highlights reduces the DR that was captured in the RAW file and this is precisely why by shooting RAW we can pull more detail out of the shadows in post than working with the in-camera jpegs.

When I stated that all the DPR results all came in at 8.x stops I was making the point relative to the numbers in Gothmoth's post (I have not looked for the DRP results for all cameras) and my point was that they were all reduced to about the same level lower than the DxoMark tests.  If the Sony sensor was measured 9.4 then perhaps it started with more DR in the RAW file, perhaps the Sony in-camera jpeg applied a less aggressive transfer curve?  I don't know, I'm asking because you seem to know about the details of their testing?

Another question I have is, if DPR is shooting the wedge and visually counting the stops what are they viewing it on (monitor, print) and what is the DR of that viewing medium.  This I have no clue about so perhaps you know more about that.  My understanding though is that modern sensors can record more dynamic range than can be printed and only very high-end expensive monitors can display DR greater than about 10 stops which perhaps DPR was using.

Since you imply you've tested what you can achieve with your 1D4, how did you do your test?  Do you have access to a monitor that can display more than 8-9 stops of DR?

602
Can you point me to where you're getting those numbers from.  I've seen higher numbers quoted but possibly none are the definitive source.

sorry forgot to give the source...  ::)

they are from dpreview.
numbers as mentioned at base iso.

Last time looked, DPR's numbers for DR were based on in-camera JPG shots of a step wedge. If that's no longer the case, happy to hear it. If they're still doing that...need I say more?

That would explain why every camera was measured to have around 8 stops of DR... no matter what the actual dynamic range recorded by the camera they are all converted to the standard jpg file format with 256 levels per colour channel.

603
I must not be thick skinned enough to participate in online forums because I don't like getting smited when I think I'm just politely commenting or responding to other people's posts.  Ouch, it hurts.  LOL

604
Where do people see 16 bit images in the specs??  I see14 bit images in the specification, and 16 readout channels.

The previous model had 8 readout channels and 14 bits, and Nikon D3S has 12 readout channels and 14 bit images.

I'm not sure that the number of readout channels has much to do with the bit level of the image, I thought it was just pulling data from the sensor in parallel streams data can be read faster.

Doesn't the A/D converter determine the bit depth?

http://www.prophotowiki.com/w/index.php/CMOS

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20121138-1/canon-loads-eos-1d-x-with-new-tech-hopes-and-dreams/

wasn't saying that the 1D X shot 16-bit.  I was saying that I would very much like to see it shoot 16-bit.

Ivar had said there was relatively little difference between 12-bit and 14-bit files, and I was strongly disagreeing with that sentiment, as well as paying a shout-out to a personal wish list item, which is the desire for 16-bit RAW files in the future.  hope that clears that one up

Kubelik, I can't speak for Mt. Spokane, but I did read your comment the way you meant it.  The mention of "16-bit" was made in several comments at least one of which I think has been deleted.

605
Hopefully it will be close to the recent Sony sensors that are all over 13 stops.

source?
the diagram at dpreview is 13 stops overall and i did not see that sony exceeded this diagram..

Dxomark.com or Sensorgen.info

606
hopefully the new sensor electronics for the 1DX brings forth improvement in dynamic range, Canon Achille's heel

Nikon D3S = 8.3 EV

Canon EOS 1D Mark IV = 8.7 EV

Canon EOS 5D Mark II = 8.4 EV

Nikon D3 = 8.6 EV

Nikon D300S = 8.4 EV

all at base iso.

so not really a overall achilles heel i would say.
if you mean DR in high iso ... well that looks not so good.

ok sony beats them all but .. sony is still no competition in the pro sector.
i rarely have a professionell customer who buys sony.

Can you point me to where you're getting those numbers from.  I've seen higher numbers quoted but possibly none are the definitive source.

607
A quick check revealed the 1D3 and 1D4 had 8 channel output

Hopefully the new sensor electronics for the 1DX brings forth improvement in dynamic range, Canon Achille's heel

I would expect so.  Technology has advanced... read noise is down even lower than 1D4 according to press release and in general the chip electronics have shrunk making more room for the photosite in each pixel.  Those advances combined with larger pixels should result in more DR.  Hopefully it will be close to the recent Sony sensors that are all over 13 stops.


608
Where do people see 16 bit images in the specs??  I see14 bit images in the specification, and 16 readout channels.

The previous model had 8 readout channels and 14 bits, and Nikon D3S has 12 readout channels and 14 bit images.

I'm not sure that the number of readout channels has much to do with the bit level of the image, I thought it was just pulling data from the sensor in parallel streams data can be read faster.

Doesn't the A/D converter determine the bit depth?

http://www.prophotowiki.com/w/index.php/CMOS

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20121138-1/canon-loads-eos-1d-x-with-new-tech-hopes-and-dreams/

Yes, the press release stated that the 1DX will have a 14-bit ADC and that the new sensor will have 16 channel readout.

Yes, The maximum bit-depth is determined by the ADC.   A 14-bit ADC can encode 2^14 (16,384) discrete levels for the voltage at each pixel.

609
EOS Bodies / Re: EOS-1D X Canon USA Press Release
« on: October 18, 2011, 05:14:02 PM »
From a video standpoint, it's a bit underwhelming.

No 1080 60p is a big one. Hopefully, the next full frame will be a bit more video oriented since the 1D is more for stills people. For video, especially since they made us wait so long and Canon's refresh cycle takes longer than an Ice Age. The 6D or 5D3 or whatever it's called needs to have

1) 1080p 60fps
2) 4:2:2 50 mb codec
3) Hopefully a flip screen

That's not asking for much at all

The reason why the 5D2 was such a huge hit and considered revolutionary was because of the HD video. Without the video, it would have just been another camera. So Canon needs to do something revolutionary again for video. Maybe on Nov 3rd, the video people will finally get what they need

The video capabilities Canon put into the 1DX might be so that it doesn't come too close to whatever they're going to announce on the 3rd.

610
EOS Bodies / Re: EOS-1D X Canon USA Press Release
« on: October 18, 2011, 03:16:21 PM »
Direct quote from Dan Carr's web-site...  are you going to tell him to get a clue???

yep i do exactly that.

of course 1/500s or 1/2000s would be nicer then 1/250s.

but 1/250 or 1/300s that´s just a matter of more flash output, smaller aperture, a ND filter etc. and not a dealbreaker.

Smaller aperture or ND filter reduces the ambient exposure AND the strobe exposure.  If you have enough strobe power at your disposal then that would work fine.

So on one hand you agree that faster max sync speed is better and the other hand you tell me to get a clue when I say that 1/320 is better than 1/250 and that some photographers might be disappointed the max sync speed went down.  Ok.  You win.

611
EOS Bodies / Re: EOS-1D X Canon USA Press Release
« on: October 18, 2011, 02:38:37 PM »
  Another issue is the max sync speed is down to 1/250s which might bother outdoor shooters trying to overpower the sun with strobes... for example Dan Carr talks about his on his web-site.   Overall, as another member stated earlier today, don't forget Canon is in the business to sell cameras and they are building this camera for the possibly the biggest segment of pros... those working in the field (rough and wet conditions) who need fast shutter speed and low light performance.

there is much nonsense in your post but this is the worst....

do you think 1/250 or 1/300 of a second makes a big difference in overpowering the sun?

please get a clue what you are talking about.....

Direct quote from Dan Carr's web-site...  are you going to tell him to get a clue???

"Overcoming the ambient light with your strobe power is a constant battle for location photographers and squeezing every last 1/3 stop of shutter speed is very useful."

When using strobes outdoors to stop action it is important to minimize the ambient light and this is done by reducing shutter speed and/or aperture.  But reducing aperture also means increasing your strobe power to get the proper exposure.  Shutter speed on the other hand does not affect the strobe exposure.

612
EOS Bodies / Re: EOS-1D X Canon USA Press Release
« on: October 18, 2011, 01:57:33 PM »
Bye bye Canon, hello Nikon.

You won't be seeing me here anymore, good luck with new Prosumer 18mp camera kids, and keep an eye on EBay, all my lenses etc will be there soon.

LOL Sorry, you'll just have to learn to frame your shots properly to begin with, instead of relying on cropping a 50MP file. Or yes, you can switch to Nikon and work with 12MP out of spite LOLOL Priceless

I suspect macfly is referring to the rumored 36 MP D800.  If you do a little digging into macfly instead of bashing him (which I admit, I was guilty of in the past), you'll find he's a pro with an impressive portfolio, and often shoots with medium format bodies in addition to dSLRs.  He appears to have a real need for higher resolution for print ads (thus the MF cameras), and was clearly hoping for a higher MP body from Canon, from a professional perspective.

Having said that, for me, 18 MP is just fine...

I`ll second neuro`s comments... check out macfly`s website to know that his work is impressive and he would know the importance of resolution to his own work that I believe he has said before includes billboard ads.  Although brashly stated, macfly has a good point that some photography greatly benefits from higher resolution and I`m sure he stated in a previous post around a month ago that he is often forced to use Hassleblad MF and he dislikes that camera therefore was hoping and praying Canon will release a camera that can match.  Perhaps that was wishful thinking, a 35mm FF sensor may just not be able to come close enough to what a MF sensor can do.

Justin made some good points as well.   Although Canon is trying to state this camera is an all-around best choice, that`s just marketing BS... they may not believe for a second an 18MP FF sensor will work for high-end studio, fashion, landscape.  I think Justin is correct in saying Canon clearly designed this for photojournalists, sports, weddings, etc. where 18MP is enough and fast shutter speeds and low-light performance trumps everything.  Of course, not all sports shooters are going to love this camera... not enough pixels on subject for long-range shots so need to go up 1 in lens choice (e.g. 400mm instead of 300mm).  Another issue is the max sync speed is down to 1/250s which might bother outdoor shooters trying to overpower the sun with strobes... for example Dan Carr talks about his on his web-site.   Overall, as another member stated earlier today, don't forget Canon is in the business to sell cameras and they are building this camera for the possibly the biggest segment of pros... those working in the field (rough and wet conditions) who need fast shutter speed and low light performance.

Before macfly and others that have similar needs, waiting for the 5D3 before defecting to Nikon might pay off.  If they increase the resolution to 30MP,  improve the AF, and just slightly improve build quality (logical improvements to make), it might be a great studio camera... after all 5D2 did destroy 1Ds3 sales so Canon heard the money loud and clear... pros who would otherwise use the 1Ds3 went straight for the 5D2 clearly voting with their dollars that they can live without the rugged build quality of the 1 series.

613
Canon General / Re: Canon EOS 1D X Press Release
« on: October 18, 2011, 12:47:52 AM »
Just for anyone that cares before the official press release is out and about, here's the PDF from the Japanese press release; it's where the AF image, GPS/Wireless images came from. Full specs are at the bottom.

This was taken down along with the press release, so it is official, it came from the Nikkei site.

Thanks.  Love your club photography by the way.  The 1DX should really work for you with the improved low-light performance!

614
Canon General / Re: Canon EOS 1D X Press Release
« on: October 18, 2011, 12:37:03 AM »
The press release DID hit in Japan, but was quickly taken down. That's where the image came from, and the full detailed PDF with all the specs. So it IS official, Canon's just not ready to make it official yet.

Strange

615
Canon General / Re: Canon EOS 1D X Press Release
« on: October 18, 2011, 12:32:06 AM »
Searching for "Canon" on Google News doesn't give any results for a credible news agency picking the story up.

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