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Messages - Lee Jay

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1
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 11:33:24 PM »
The human eye cannot tell the difference above about 24 fps, so a refresh threshold of about 42 ms is enough.
Not quite.  Cinema film shot at 24fps appears fluid to the human eye because it's projected at 48fps with each image shown twice -- as distinct from 48fps like Peter Jackson uses with a full 48 images.  If it was actually run at 24fps, you'd have a splitting headache.  Some projectors run at 72 images per second.

Carry on.

Regardless, your ability to see flicker isn't really related to your ability to track high speed subjects in the presence of lag.
No argument.  The effectiveness of a display is affected by refresh rate, input lag, and change response time.  The last is where an OLED EFV would have no issues.  The first two can cause problems.  The likely issue with any EFV would be input lag, if it's not sufficiently low.  Given that the data has to be encoded, moved, and redisplayed, the electronics would need to be very, very fast.

The sensor too.  The theoretical minimum on lag is the shutter period.  In good light this can be very short, but then the frame rate and thus processing pipeline has to keep up.

In low light, the shutter speed can be a major problem.  When you need 1/15th to get an image for the EVF, your lag is going to be that plus any processing overhead.

2
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 10:19:05 PM »
The human eye cannot tell the difference above about 24 fps, so a refresh threshold of about 42 ms is enough.
Not quite.  Cinema film shot at 24fps appears fluid to the human eye because it's projected at 48fps with each image shown twice -- as distinct from 48fps like Peter Jackson uses with a full 48 images.  If it was actually run at 24fps, you'd have a splitting headache.  Some projectors run at 72 images per second.

Carry on.

Regardless, your ability to see flicker isn't really related to your ability to track high speed subjects in the presence of lag.

3
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 08:32:57 PM »

Zero lag.
Zero power usage.
Infinite dynamic range.
Infinite color gamut.
Automatic match between viewfinder illumination and scene illumination.
A total dynamic range (bright sun to night scenes) equal to the scene, which can be about 10-12 stops more than an EVF can manage.

Not to be picky.... but.....

Zero Lag.... not quite... it's about .5 microseconds for the light to travel through the prism.... but that's about a 30 thousandth the time of the best EVF's... for the stuff I deal with at work, .5 microseconds is freakin' slow! :)

Infinite dynamic range and color gamut? That would require travelling through a vacuum... you loose some of each passing through glass and through atmosphere.. It is certainly far superior, but it is not infinite....

Light can go 500 feet in .5 microseconds.  Did you mean .5 nanoseconds?

4
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 06:34:41 PM »
"closed loop feedback", what ever that means, is irrelevant.

The fact that you don't know what it means also means that you don't understand its relevance.

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The human eye cannot tell the difference above about 24 fps, so a refresh threshold of about 42 ms is enough.

Then tell me why I could not do, with a 25ms lag EVF, what I could do easily with a 0ms OVF.

I know why, but you don't.

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What are the advantages of an optical viewfinder other than a historical attachment to pre-digital cameras?

Zero lag.
Zero power usage.
Infinite dynamic range.
Infinite color gamut.
Automatic match between viewfinder illumination and scene illumination.
A total dynamic range (bright sun to night scenes) equal to the scene, which can be about 10-12 stops more than an EVF can manage.

5
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 06:30:01 PM »
PS: where did we get the information about the absence if the 3x crop mode from the 7D mk III?

We don't know for sure.  All I know for sure is that the feature is not in the same menu location on the 7DII beta cameras that have been shown in video as it is in the 70D.  This leads me to believe that the feature was removed.

As I said, the fact that it's single-shot focusing in that feature means it's useless to me for most applications I had planned for it.

6
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 06:06:42 PM »
At 60 fps the eye can no longer tell the difference, which is ~17 ms refresh. As a practical matter your ability to tell a difference will have a threshold a lot higher than that. In other words modern EFVs are more than adequate. Stop looking at EFVs from 10 years ago, and stop looking at the word "EFV" to form you judgment.

This is all simply untrue, and comes from an ignorance of how closed loop feedback systems work.

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Your "dark adaption" of your eyes allows you to see in the dark?

Yes.  Very dark.  The equivalent of ISO 500,000 1/10th.

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Don't make me laugh. Please. A modern camera sensor on the other hand is quite capable of seeing
in the dark, and certainly a lot better than any human eye.
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Only with long exposures.

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Plus, you are still ignoring the fundamental advantage EFVs have over optical, which is the ability to see at the pixel level what the camera actually is seeing (which is fundamentally important because the CAMERA (bolded because you are ignoring this fundamental fact) is recording the image, not your eye). Optical viewfinders are simply incapable of doing that.

Manual focus magnification is the only advantage of EVFs for stills.

7
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 05:57:36 PM »
If you're serious about video quality do not buy a 70D. The 7D is a much video better camera.

If you're serious about video quality, actually there's just one Canon choice: The 5d3 with pixel binning (= no moire) and Magic Lantern raw video. Who knows when this will arrive on the 7d2, if ever.
... plus the 7D-II has a headphone jack (much like the 5D-III) which is useful for monitoring while you record.

It also has clean 4:2:2 HDMI out with audio embedded.

The clean 4:2:2 HDMI isn't worth much since with Canon DSLRS the image quality damage occurs prior to the compression stage. I got a Ninja for my 5D3, but I could barely tell any difference whatsoever. Using ML RAW though the difference was beyond night and day.

I've seen the difference, and it's minor.  It's better in some ways, but worse in others, especially hot pixels and color artifacts.

8
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 05:48:50 PM »
Like I said, the NX1 is the camera the 7D2 should have been.

If the 7D2 had an EVF only, I wouldn't be interested in it at all, because it would be essentially useless for my primary intended purpose.

Which is what?

Very high speed subjects.

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If an EVF is essentially instant without lag, ...

Then it's in violation of the laws of causality.  I have an EVF with a measured total combined lag of only 25ms (which is very fast as EVFs go) and it's just way, way too slow - a factor of at least 5.

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it is superior to an optical viewfinder since it can correct for exposure (which is impossible in an optical viewfinder).

Which I absolutely don't want it to do.

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If you work in low or high contrast light, you 100% need an EVF.

Interesting, then, how I've done it for all this time without one.  Oh, an EVF is really totally useless to me especially in low light because it will destroy the dark adaptation of my eyes.  I want the viewfinder to be dark when the subject is dark.  And I've shot in extremely, extremely difficult conditions with an OVF.  Try this - crop camera OVF, f/21 optics wide open, total darkness, 4,300mm equivalent focal length, hand-tracking and manually focusing on an object that's moving at orbital velocities and it only 9m long at 400km away.  I did it successfully and was even able to identify the object.  That would be totally and completely impossible with an EVF.

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A lot of the resistance against EVFs is resistance against EVFs from 10 years ago. I have cameras with optical view finders and EVFs, and other than the exposure issue, EVFs blow optical out of the water with features such as peaking, view zooming and zebra functions that allow you to get proper focus and overall exposure. Optical viewfinders are a technology of the past, and cannot compete with modern EVFs designed for the future in terms of overall functionality. They simply cannot, they are obsolete.

EVFs are only really good for video for me.  For stills, the only good thing about them is that they are better than using the LCD.  I turn off all that nonsense information on my EVF cameras so I can focus on the subject anyway.

9
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 05:41:54 PM »
The big selling point for me for the 70D is the 3x digital zoom mode in video.  Hopefully it'll get added to the 7DII either by firmware for by Magic Lantern.  But with the Dual DIGIC 6 chips, that might be a big effort for ML to accomplish.

So, I just tested it, and the 70D is single-shot contrast-detect only focusing in 3x zoom mode, making it essentially useless for what I was going to use it for.  I'd still like to have it for certain things, but this fact makes it 5% as useful as I expected it to be.

10
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 05:32:03 PM »
Like I said, the NX1 is the camera the 7D2 should have been.

If the 7D2 had an EVF only, I wouldn't be interested in it at all, because it would be essentially useless for my primary intended purpose.

11
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 04:32:19 PM »
If you're serious about video quality do not buy a 70D. The 7D is a much video better camera.

If you're serious about video quality, actually there's just one Canon choice: The 5d3 with pixel binning (= no moire) and Magic Lantern raw video. Who knows when this will arrive on the 7d2, if ever.
... plus the 7D-II has a headphone jack (much like the 5D-III) which is useful for monitoring while you record.

It also has clean 4:2:2 HDMI out with audio embedded.

12
EOS Bodies / Re: 70D or 7D MK II
« on: September 20, 2014, 01:47:05 PM »
I can't decide myself.  The 70D also has WiFi which would be nice for remote control over the camera.  Plus, it's several hundred dollars cheaper.  It also has 3x digital zoom mode in video.

I'm upgrading from a 20D.  I love my 20D, but there are extreme situations where I don't get as many in-focus shots as I'd like.  I know the 70D's focusing system is quite far advanced compared to my 20D, but the 7DII's is even more advance, by far.

I'm leaning toward the 7DII for several reasons.  First and foremost, in focus shots in difficult conditions.  Second, I don't think the touch screen and flip screen would help me for video since I'd be adding an LCD loupe like the Hoodman Cinema Pro kit for shooting video anyway.  In fact, the 70D's screen might hurt in those situations.  Finally, the 7DII has genuine f/8 AF points, whereas the 70D does not, and just seems to work "in some situations" for f/8 lens combinations.

The big selling point for me for the 70D is the 3x digital zoom mode in video.  Hopefully it'll get added to the 7DII either by firmware for by Magic Lantern.  But with the Dual DIGIC 6 chips, that might be a big effort for ML to accomplish.

13
EOS Bodies / Re: Official: Canon EOS 7D Mark II
« on: September 20, 2014, 09:24:24 AM »
Oh, I know John Fielder's work, I just don't find landscapes to be interesting, from anyone.  They're worth a 1 second glance and that's it for me.

I don't go hiking anywhere because I'm allergic to all grasses, all flowers and most trees.

14
EOS Bodies / Re: Official: Canon EOS 7D Mark II
« on: September 20, 2014, 04:18:23 AM »
Lee Jay I can't imagine having a cellphone for 7 years!  :o  so curious, what kind is it??

All of them I've ever had, several brands.  I'm only 2 years into my Galaxy S3 at the moment.  Haven't considered upgrading.

I live in Colorado too, the "big landscape state".  I think I've taken about 5 landscapes in my life, and only one of them in Colorado.  That was a big panorama taken with a state of the art camera, a Nikon Coolpix 950!

15
EOS Bodies / Re: Official: Canon EOS 7D Mark II
« on: September 20, 2014, 12:07:19 AM »
I work in a national laboratory with a bunch of engineers like myself.  Few people I know are upgraders.  Most drive older cars, few have DSLRs, most keep computers longer than I do.

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