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Messages - AvTvM

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346
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Off Brand: Nikon Announces the Df
« on: November 05, 2013, 10:16:29 AM »
More faulty logic: you are still assuming that video costs extra,

You got it wrong. I don't care in at all, how much it costs a camera maker to add video capability to a DSLR (it does cost something). ALL I am saying is, that camera makers should CHARGE more for dual purpose gear compared to single purpose gear.

They should sell all cameras in a video-enabled version and a video disabled version. Video disabled version at significantly lower price. Video-enabled version at much higher price, but still much lower than combined cost of a stills and a video camera.  That would be fair. That way, those who clamour for additional usage and functionality in a camera that is NOT required by many (stills photographers) would be made to pay for their part of the ride.

It's like going on a cruise ... passage in cabin with sea view does not cause (significantly) higher cost to the cruise company than passengers in a "inner" cabin.  But the price charged is hugely different. Simply, because users of the outward cabin get extra functionality/pleasure.

347
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Off Brand: Nikon Announces the Df
« on: November 05, 2013, 09:30:00 AM »
Oh, can we also put to bed the "take away video and make the camera cheaper!" arguments for good now. Here's a stills camera aimed at photographers at the expense of videographers, and its 50% more expensive than their more mass-market D600/D610. It's gonna double the street price of the 6D, which is the same size and has video.
No video makes it more niche, which makes it more expensive

Completely wrong. Nikon s decision to launch this Digital Frankenstein for USD/€ 2750,- has nothing to do with video yes/or no. It's the price point for a pseduo-retro, pseudo hipster fashion accessory.

A true test would be for CaNikon  to sell say the 6D and D610 each in a video-enabled" "v"-version and a "p"- pure photography version with absolutely everything equal, including outer design, except video-capture/video out [not firmware hackable]. "p" version being sold at USD/€ 1500  and the "v" version at 2500.  One grand more is still dirt cheap compared to purchase of both a video and a stills camera. THAT way, we would see, whether videographers are just cheapskates piggybacking on stills shooter's DSLRs or whether they are willing to pay at least for a portion of their desired dual-use cameras. 

I KNOW what the market split would be. Less than 10% of those yelling for all sorts of video crap in DSLRs wpould be willing to pay anything for it.

348
The more I see of this camera, the less I like it: I find it very ugly -too big and lumpy and wanting in its deign philosophy.

Even Nikon doesn't seem to be sure about returning to an interface based upon dedicated marked dials, so they provide both. Pure photography? My arse! This is pure marketing gimmickry that has actually complicated the control interface through duplication.

This is a camera that claims to address the issue of over-complication in modern DSLRs, but actually does nothing of the sort, other than removing video. So video over-complicates a modern DSLR, but all the in-camera retouching options, a 39 point AF system with umpteen different tracking modes, banks of custom setting, etc. That's all fine it seems!

If you really want "Pure Photography", you need to make pure design decisions: you must decide what the camera can do and what it cannot. The DF attempts to be simple and yet lose none of the sophisticated features of a modern autofocus digital SLR camera; it fails because our expectations of what this constitutes a modern DSLR, lead to a design that is inherently complicated.

I fully agree with almost everything you say. Except, that "no video" is an absolutely necessary step in getting to a "pure photography camera ... without clutter and disctractions."
Unfortunately, Nikon did not go the rest of the way.

Nikon wanted too much
1. compatibility not only for older AI lenses (like any other "better" Nikon DSLR) but also for those really old dog Non-AI lenses ... instead of leaving these uncoated, unsuited for digital photography clunkers alone! They are strictly for use with film cameras or as deco objects or as collector's items. Or all three. But nothing else.
2. "Retro-UI" befitting a manual focus, aperture auto only classic SLR (FM/FE) and on top of that a modern UI to control a "very bland and uninspired" DSLR. Now there are 7 (!) wheels on that camera, plus numerous buttons and switches.  Not well thought out at all. In the end, that's what makes the Df complicated rather than easy and really "silly" - as dpreview puts it. 

Nikon gave it too little
* instead of buidling it on the D610 chassis, they should have started with D800 chassis, electronics, battery  and most importantly AF-system. Then put the D4 sensor in it, if they really got a huge surplus of those left over. And then retro-style the package in a much more elegant, restrained, pure and straightforward way. 
* retro- design should not have precluded inclusion of WiFi (and possibly NFC - for wireless remote control and GPS) plus master-trigger pop-up flash hidden in that huge viewfinder bump

Then Nikon could have easily sold it at 3k (body only, forget about that 50/1.8). It would have given them a meaningful and potentially attractive addition to their DSLR line-up:
* fast/reportage D4 on top (max fps), not cannibalized by D800 or Df
* Df for medium res/low light stuff, medium speed, WEDDING etc. and "retro-fans"
* D800/E for hi res stuff - landscape/studio stuff 
* D610 for budget restrained hobbyists willing to put up with a marketing cripple

But ... they botched it.  :P

349
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Rumor: Nikon Digital FM2 - Retro look
« on: November 05, 2013, 12:15:32 AM »
I would like to see Canon make a competing model.

no thanks. I would rather like to see Canon make a killer 7D 2 and a Sony A7R-killer. :-)

350
No video: At last, all those who complain about paying for video they never use have an option available. Buy the D800 with video or buy the Df and save yourselves $50. I guess I was wrong and you guys were right. You are are paying more for video capability. Spend that $50 any way you want.

hehehe .. were I live the D800 is currently at € 2000. The new Nikon DOA will be at least € 3000 body only. So no video will cost 1000 € .. oO. That's not the way it's meant to be!  ;D

351
I like the look and the manual controls.
If Canon comes up with something like this I shall surely buy.

and I shall surely puke.

352
Just saw this....... 16 mp ???????

yep. Nikon is re-using the D4 sensor and CPU. 16 MP, Expeed 3. Hi-ISO up to 204800. 
Coupled with D600/610 AF and electornics (4s to 1/4000s shutter speeds).
Wifi as an optional WU-1 wart. ["no clutter. No distractions" said the teaser].
Plus a record number of wheels all over the camera.
And leatherette all the way up to the flash-shoe. [FE style]

ROFLMAO

353
meet the new Nikon Df ... erm the Nikon DOA :-)

Steampunkt design without any functional advantage. Still need both hands to operate it. And best of all: no video, no video! AND expensive as hell. Conclusion? It won't sell. hehehe!

D800 is currently at 2000 Euros - including 20% VAT [Germany] :-)

354
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Rumor: Nikon Digital FM2 - Retro look
« on: November 04, 2013, 04:39:56 PM »
NR reports it will cost 2750$

that price will make a lot of nikon fanboys unhappy.
they hoped it will be cheaper then the D610.

I am just laughing my head off. I fully expected Nikon would price it higher than even the D800. Nikon Df .. or rather: the new Nikon DOA. lol.

Hope this cures Canon of any and all "retro-crap" plans they may have. Go and build my FF mirrorless now! :-)

355
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Rumor: Nikon Digital FM2 - Retro look
« on: November 04, 2013, 01:49:08 PM »
The problem is that if you really really make the perfect camera and you price it nicely, it will be the last camera you're going to sell. Just look at how many Nikonians are still so happy with their D700/D3X/D300s that they don't feel the need to upgrade. Let's be honest, if the 5D2's AF wasn't crap and the 5D3's great, how many people would have upgraded?

It is evident, that there are LOADS of Canon and Nikon users who would LOVE to buy a great, decently priced [= around USD/€ 1500] 7D II and D400. But CaNikon are not willing and/or not able to get one out.

Instead  ... retro stuff. Hate it. Ugly, wheels & knobs all over. Don't want to be a steam engine operator. Had manual-focus stuff way back in the 70ies. Done with it. For good. 

356
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Rumor: Nikon Digital FM2 - Retro look
« on: November 04, 2013, 12:31:10 PM »
It looks awful, like all the "retro" stuff. It will only be successful, if it comes really cheap, way below D610.
All Nikon has to do is hire you to tell them which product would be "successful" ::) incredible, who knew sales and marketing was that simple.

yep, good idea. ;-)
Sometimes it's really simple. Just watch and see how well this Nikon Df will sell if it is priced above D610.  :-)

357
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Rumor: Nikon Digital FM2 - Retro look
« on: November 04, 2013, 11:22:19 AM »


I also would have loved to see a fabulous "all-out" Nikon FF mirrorless camera in response to Sony A7/A7R. 
One affordable version "STILLS ONLY" and one significantly more expensive version with video-capture, to be precise. Not because it is that much more expensive to make. But because I would love all those videogrpahrers to cross-subsidize my stills cameras ... big time! Rather than trying to free-fride on my stills cameras and clutter them with all sorts of video capture crap.


Unfortunately it's probably always going to be the opposite. Consumers want video - and more features in general: pixels, GPS, wifi, etc. Deciding to leave video out involves a mature understanding of one's needs, and it's proper of the enthusiast/pro - thus the higher price.

I want liveview, image stabilizer, Wifi and GPS in my next camera. Because - unlike video capture - I put all of those features to good use in my photography. They help me to get and capture better images and share them with others with less effort. generally, they make my life much easier.

I do NOT want or ever use video-capture. I do not want a retro/pseudo-mechanical, wheel-encrusted camera like the Nikon Df. 

358
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Rumor: Nikon Digital FM2 - Retro look
« on: November 04, 2013, 09:57:46 AM »
IT LOOKS GOOD!
I LIKE IT!
new photos show lots of manual controls on top deck
http://nikonrumors.com/2013/11/04/this-is-the-nikon-df.aspx/#
maybe I'll buy one if it feels good and performs well (low ISO, no FPN, high DR, etc ;) )
edit - link anchor removal


It looks awful, like all the "retro" stuff. It will only be successful, if it comes really cheap, way below D610.   

359
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Rumor: Nikon Digital FM2 - Retro look
« on: November 04, 2013, 09:54:34 AM »
simply no one wants to buy a digital camera without proper video and LV implementation.
I do. Actually the majority of stills photographers do (source: personal observation + common sense). LV is fine and useful to us. Video capture? Unnessecary clutter and distraction. very "un-pure" [in Nikon lingo]. ;-)

I was hoping this DF thing to be a fully mirrorless design camera , but it seems like just another boring retro looking F mount camera.
so I cannot imagine any one actually wants this , Nikon is wasting its very limited R and D money on something no one wants to see from them.
shame on you Nikon, you should try to come up with something similar to the Sony A7 with better video codec and Nikon One type of very fast shooting capability with proper PDAF.

I also would have loved to see a fabulous "all-out" Nikon FF mirrorless camera in response to Sony A7/A7R. 
One affordable version "STILLS ONLY" and one significantly more expensive version with video-capture, to be precise. Not because it is that much more expensive to make. But because I would love all those videogrpahrers to cross-subsidize my stills cameras ... big time! Rather than trying to free-fride on my stills cameras and clutter them with all sorts of video capture crap.

If one camera replaces two dedicated cameras (stills + video), it should by all means cost more than a single-use device. :-)

360
Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Rumor: Nikon Digital FM2 - Retro look
« on: November 04, 2013, 05:34:52 AM »
Here's my take on it: the DF will  be the most successful Nikon FF camera to date.

YES! But only IF ... Nikon sells the DF for USD/€ 999,- ... full-format "digital rebel" DSLR. hehehe, just like in 2003 Canon's APS-C DSLR! It will then be the last Nikon DSLR to sell more than 1.000.000 copies, before mirrorless FF Cameras quickly retire all DSLRs to where they belong ... camera museum.

NO! IF Nikon tries to sell it for more than even the D610. Then they'll be selling a couple 100.000 copies only. And mirrorless FF cameras will still be taking over soon.

hehe, I love it.  No amount of Retro-crap and good-old-analogue-times nostalgia will be able to change this. :-)

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