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Messages - x-vision

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61
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 24, 2014, 07:49:46 PM »

Let me also add, I'm not saying Canon's cameras are terrible. In fact, they're quite capable of getting good results. It's just that Canon no longer seems to care about having the best image quality (at least sub $6k) and being on the cutting edge in terms of features and sensor, and to me it's disappointing, regardless of sales figures, that other companies can offer overall better sensors AND better cameras, at a cheaper price.

If you want to measure "better" by sales figures, go ahead but I'm just talking about my subjective views of "better."

My sentiments exactly!

62
EOS Bodies / Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« on: August 24, 2014, 01:57:00 PM »
Here are the numbers (scroll down to the second table):
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/

Two years old... Srsly where do you people get that fact that they don´t use 180nm or even smaller tech for new sensors? I see no hint of this or opposite....

The 1DX, 5DIII, and 6D are all made on old 500nm CMOS process - whether you like it or not.

The only newer sensor than that is the 70D sensor.
There's no publicly available info on which process it is using.
It's possible that it's made on 180nm process, considering the dual-pixel tech.
This has not been confirmed, though.

On the other hand, even the 70D is using off-sensor A/D conversion - like all other Canon sensors.
This is visible with the naked eye if you look at the 70D main circuit board.
It also explains the typical low DR score on DxO.

When Canon announces a 4K/60fps video sensor (either in a DSLR or in a Cinema camera),
this will be a sure sigh that they have moved to on-sensor ADC and newer manufacturing process.
This is when Canon's DR scores will shoot up to match/exceed the competition.

Until then, Canon will continue lagging behind Sony and Nikon in DR.
Deal with it  8).

63
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 24, 2014, 03:47:30 AM »

It is the ONLY relevant number. The definition of DR is not up for debate.

How hard you can push shadows due to noise (i.e. grain) is LATITUDE.

Look, man, call it anything you want. Here's the deal, though:

FF cameras have less noise than crop cameras. No one argues about that.
With ... ahem ... LATITUDE, it's the exact same thing: you have less noise in the shadows.

But in both cases, it's all about having less noise.

And it's very silly to argue that with some extra noise reduction, things get equalized. No, they don't.
By the same token, you can clean up an image from a crop camera and proclaim that crop is better than FF.
Would anyone take you seriously if you do that?

So, why are you doing it for DR ??

Having more DR (what you call latitude) gives you images with cleaner shadows - just like a FF camera gives you cleaner images overall.
And having cleaner shadows/images is a clear advantage. Why are you downplaying it?
What you are doing is the same as downplaying the noise advantage of FF vs crop.

It seems to me that you just can't accept that Canon, your home team, is not winning in this particular instance.

64
EOS Bodies / Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« on: August 24, 2014, 02:17:41 AM »
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers?

Don and Jrista are right.
For their FF sensors in particular, Canon is still using an old manufacturing process.
See the link that I posted above.

65
EOS Bodies / Re: Update on the EOS 7D Mark II Spec List
« on: August 24, 2014, 02:02:33 AM »
Ha, cheers, Don! I'm feeling thoroughly educated now ;)
Really, though - How'd you find yourself (jrista and whomever else) so informed about the sensor tech and fabrication processes of the different manufacturers? I hear people mention it on these forums all the time but is it as simple as just being in spec sheets somewhere and coming to conclude that the numbers in Panasonic's data are smaller?...
Seriously though, Canon is using old tech for their APS-C and FF sensors. I don't have the numbers in front of me ...

Here are the numbers (scroll down to the second table):
http://www.chipworks.com/en/technical-competitive-analysis/resources/blog/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/

66
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 23, 2014, 04:20:43 PM »
Are there really that many indie movie makers that are shooting in 4K nowadays or is this just all baloney?

4K is the future-proof format. That's why it's important even now, when 4K TVs are still not the norm.

67
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 23, 2014, 04:43:48 AM »
it´s still just guesswork.

... but based on years of experience  8).

No point to argue here, as it's really guesswork on my part.
But you will be disappointed if you expect better IQ than the 70D.
Like I said, trust me on that ;).

68
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 23, 2014, 04:38:09 AM »
In Canon's product hierarchy, FF ... has better image quality than crop.

Amazing how Canon's product hierarchy aligns so well with physics (or maybe the other way around?)...   ;)

Well, physics would have been 'challenged' at the transition period, when a smaller sensor has superior tech vs the larger - but old - sensor.

But Canon is not taking this risk.

69
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 23, 2014, 04:36:38 AM »
obvious?

how can you say that?
you know nothing about the new sensor, do you?

Well, the leaks that appear two weeks before announcement are usually 100% right.
So, these latest specs are the real thing - trust me on that ;).

And then if it looks like a duck, you know it will quack like a duck too.
You will see  - trust me on that ;).

70
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 23, 2014, 04:16:48 AM »
OK, We can expect a 1700$ for this, no more!

And why the hell, they have wait 5 full years to produce just this upgrade?

Yup. But it's clear to me now that Canon just won't make a 1.6x camera that would challenge FF in term of image quality.

A 7DII with new sensor tech would have been too close to the 5DIII and 6D in image quality (or even better?).
I was hoping for just that - but it's obviously not happening.

In Canon's product hierarchy, FF is both more expensive and has better image quality than crop.
And this obviously remains unchanged for now.

71
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 23, 2014, 01:52:06 AM »

70D 13 Total RAW
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/canon-70d/canon-70dA5.HTM

Myths die hard, don't they.

Well, here's what the IR says about dynamic range.
  • While it's tempting to evaluate dynamic range as the maximum number of tonal steps that can be discerned at all, that measure of dynamic range has very little relevance to real-world photography. What we care about as photographers is how much detail we can pull out of the shadows before image noise becomes too objectionable.

You seem to be of the tempted type ;).

But what we care about as photographers is how much detail we can pull out of the shadows.
Not my words, btw.

72
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 23, 2014, 12:31:49 AM »
Does make you wonder though, if these end up being the final specs, why didn't they bang out a 7D replacement right after the 70D was announced? Why did we have to wait (still waiting) for a 2fps bump from the previous model and what seems like the exact same sensor from the 70D?

+1000

Quote
But will it still be awesome in 5 years time??  ???

Nope. In fact, the notion that the 70D is the best that we'll see from Canon
in the next 5 years in terms of 1.6x image quality is quite ... sobering.

I thought that they would do better.

73
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 22, 2014, 11:32:00 PM »
Details about the sensor are lacking.  Great marketing buzz terms but does the sensor have significantly better DR (vs 70D and 5DM3).

The 70D is at 13 stops. There isn't room for "significantly better" DR with a 14-bit ADC.

Except that the 7D has 11 stops of DR, not 13 stops.
The D7100 and the Exmor sensors have 13 stops of DR.

Canon is still stuck at 11, as they use off-sensor A/D conversion (unlike the Exmors).
The hope was that the 7DII would be the first camera with on-sensor ADC - but this seems unlikely at this time.

Well, all we have is a rumor at this time.
Still, the fact that a 20mp sensor is rumored (as on the 70D) doesn't bode well.
Most likely the same sensor will be used. Likely with some tweaks, of course, but nothing of significance.


74
EOS Bodies / Re: Are These The EOS 7D Mark II Specifications?
« on: August 22, 2014, 10:18:25 PM »
It certainly sounds good and yet if it doesn't do more than just give a 70D sensor without AA (and maybe it does do more) and no 4k it seems like it's something they could've produced as is some time ago already.

my first thoughts exactly.

where are the video features that are hyped for years?

does the 20.2 MP 70D sensor replaces the 18MP sensor now for the next 5 years?

+1000

If the 7DII sensor is a tweaked/re-purposed 70D sensor, I'd be very disappointed.

There's no point in a 7DII, IMO, if image quality is only marginally improved vs the 7D - and that's exactly the case with the 70D sensor.
Is this really the best that Canon will have in the next 3-5 years for APS-C image quality ??

Well, I have a 70D already, so I guess I'm all set then.
Bummer.

75
Canon General / Re: A Rundown of EOS 7D Mark II Information
« on: August 17, 2014, 08:23:46 PM »
But Canon hasn't updated their sensors since 1969 and Sonikon sensors get 9,001 more stops of dynamic range and some say if the 7D mkII sensor isn't revolutionary Canon will die!

Or so I read in a forum on the Internet last Thursday  ;)

Well, that's absolutely true.
 8)

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