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Messages - Chuck Alaimo

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256
I just want to bang my head against the wall and scream when I read comments following stories like this. It's as if only Neuro, Chuck and a handful of others actually read the stories.

Photonius had a decent analysis but then pulled a conclusion out of thin air that I'm still scratching my head over.

So, the only way to get a lot of people to buy new cameras is with a substantial innovation in sensor technology.

Was that intended as sarcasm or a joke?



no, just some unfinished thought left standing. I meant if you want to get existing owners to upgrade (and thus create a  new purchase cycle, ( like in the past from 4 to 10 MPs or whatever), you really need some mouthwatering new features, e.g. a new sensor that is a serious jump over all current products, or some other neat feature that's not just a gimmick. Live view was a pretty neat feature when it came.
Of course sensors are very mature at this point, so it's difficult to see how that could improve a lot, but the dual pixels of the sensor in the 70D could be  a precursor to a whole bunch of things.

Ha! Now I understand.

I was confused because your post was so thoughtful and rational and then all of a sudden it seemed like you took a peculiar turn. I certainly agree with the basic premise. Just his week I succumbed to a 5DIII. I hesitate to say an "upgrade" from the 7D, because I still love the 7D and intend to keep using it.

I debated long and hard between a 6D, waiting for the 7DII and pulling out, what for me was, all the stops and going for a 5DIII. Part of my justification was that it is so good I think it will satisfy me for years to come. I think a challenge facing all camera makers, but especially Canon and Nikon, is that their products are now so good that there is little reason for buyers to jump to the next generation.

So, I guess I agree with the premise that it will take some "mouth watering" new features to get many current owners to upgrade. Personally, I'm not sure that for full frame sensors there is much that can be done to entice current owners. I'm amazed at how well the 5DIII sells (check out Amazon's best selling DSLRs). It's incredible to me that a $3,000 camera is selling as well as $500 cameras. I've got to think that many of those buyers are like me – rationalizing it as a camera that will satisfy them for the next 10 years or so.

With APS-C I think there is still sufficient room for improvement to entice current owners to upgrade. If the 7DII makes some significant improvements in the sensor, I'll have a hard time resisting. But, I'll also want 5D quality autofocus and a few other goodies.

Frankly, I think another challenge all manufacturers face is not only that the technology has matured, but the customer base is aging out.  I think it is going to be very hard for Canon and Nikon to attract younger buyers and I think some of the their recent models show they are pretty desperately trying anything they can think of, but don't seem to be having much success.

The best hope for Canon and Nikon (at least temporarily) may be an expanding world economy. If the economies in the currently underdeveloped world improve, they may get a temporary boost, as they have with China. Other than that, I'm guessing all manufacturers will have to learn to live with a market that is growing at a much slower pace than in the past several years.

Canon and Nikon may actually be the best positioned to adapt to the changing market, because until the explosion of digital technology, I'm pretty sure the growth in the film and SLR market was pretty modest.

customer base is aging out.
Yes, that's what I sort of was thinking of also with my point 3 - no newcomers. Older people grew up in an age without digital devices. Snapshots where taken with polariod, or Instamatics, later P&S cameras. A bit more serious users would have had to get an SLR. But the sensor was  exchangeable (film - no upgrade incentive for the body), and once you had a decent body, it could last a long time. AF was a technological breakthrough, leading to be an upgrade cycle.   So, the old-time SLR customer base is certainly one that can be catered to with dSLRs.
However, young people of the P&S variety (what would have been a polaroid/instamatic customer base etc. in the past) are satisfied with their smart phones now. I don't think most of these would ever have been customers of SLRs in the past either. The customer segment that sticks with smart phones nowadays might perhaps be larger than the comparable instamatic customer segment of the past, because of the following points:
The display devices and the internet. In the past, for high quality stuff, people would often use slides, to be projected and viewed, perhaps with friends.  This is now superseded by monitors and TVs, which presently deliver much less resolution than what cameras deliver. Further, images are quickly spread via internet. So, on the one hand you don't need supergreat resolution, because most display devices don't handle it. Second, you can look now at so many good pictures on the internet, we are virtually flooded by it.
So, a newcomer might think "Do I really need a dSLR" to take yet another picture of a duck or the New York skyline - I'll never compete with what's out there, so I shoot mostly for memories, and the phone will do. So, overall, the incentive to step from a "good enough" to dSLR might be less than in the past, because of all the new technologies.

Seriously, for all the ones clamoring for a D800. How many high-tech landscape images do we need? 99.9 % of people view on monitors or tv, so 36 MPs is mostly overkill. Large prints? How many are really printed big and hung on the limited wall space there is? So, the final market for the full capabilities of a D800 is actually rather limited.


Expanding world economy. 
Yes, this is a classic practice for hundreds of years, if your home market is saturated, expand. That's why there was this push for the global economy, to expand markets, to keep the growth model. Alas, who are you going to sell to next? The martians? So, an alternative (taken by e.g. Apple) is innovation - but there is only such much innovation until some technical limitation hits (e.g. how much can you still improve an iphone, it's a similar problem to dSLRs), which requires then a breakthrough again. For many portable devices a real bottleneck is the battery that is limiting, because that limits how much processing power you can stick into the device.  Even in a dSLR, if you had more processing power, you could probably jack up many things, providing more precessing power for various features, including imaging processing, i.e. frame rate, automatic lens correction, diffraction reduction, noise reduction, etc.

again, great points.  I don't think it's as bleak and growth starved as you though - for instance, following your model - boy meets girl, boy and girl go out, now during the day time that cell phone gets you great shots, but once the sun goes down, all those shots are blurry (one day that will even change as they push to make smaller sensors take in more light).  Girl gets frustrated.  Boy buys girl a nice camera (a dslr).

I know your not saying the dslr market is dead, but, yeah, it is narrowing down to mostly the upgrading crowd, but there are still going to be newcomers - just not as many as in the past decade.

I think cell phones also face the same issue as slr's - just like lots of websites, the drive to innovate a product that's already innovated leads to a lot of marginal upgrades, or upgrades that just don't make sense, or upgrades that do make sense but not with the general consumer client.  Take that d800, it's a monster on paper, but, unless you need that kind of power are you taking the leap?  Of course, some will buy it because it's a monster on paper, and rarely use it, kind of like the good old i need a nicer car than the neighbors idea, its a status symbol.  Either way, cell phones face the same issue, what else do you do that isn't a marginal upgrade?  Of course, it's harder to say no to cell upgrades because they aren't really designed to last for more than a year and a half - and thats one thing i am glad for --- even rebels have a decent shelf life.  It is one of the things that surprise me about the cell phone market actually, how easily we are all duped into buying these things that break so easily (it's cheap if you can make your phone last that 2 years...heehaw...cheap upgrade ---but if it dies in a year...your coughing up close to an slr's $$$ on a phone!!!)

Either way, there is still a market for slr's.  I said it before - we're between product cycles on upper end models.  And the entry level bodies, those are the ones people are stepping into less and less due to cell phone silliness.  It should be interesting to see what these #'s do in 2014 - with Canon putting the 7d2 on the market, and maybe the big mp beast, and whatever nikon has on the release table.  If these models do kick ass, then canon will have a turn around in 2014, then a slow 2015 as they ramp up for the 5d4 and the 1dx2

257
I just want to bang my head against the wall and scream when I read comments following stories like this. It's as if only Neuro, Chuck and a handful of others actually read the stories.

Photonius had a decent analysis but then pulled a conclusion out of thin air that I'm still scratching my head over.

So, the only way to get a lot of people to buy new cameras is with a substantial innovation in sensor technology.

Was that intended as sarcasm or a joke?



no, just some unfinished thought left standing. I meant if you want to get existing owners to upgrade (and thus create a  new purchase cycle, ( like in the past from 4 to 10 MPs or whatever), you really need some mouthwatering new features, e.g. a new sensor that is a serious jump over all current products, or some other neat feature that's not just a gimmick. Live view was a pretty neat feature when it came.
Of course sensors are very mature at this point, so it's difficult to see how that could improve a lot, but the dual pixels of the sensor in the 70D could be  a precursor to a whole bunch of things.

Ha! Now I understand.

I was confused because your post was so thoughtful and rational and then all of a sudden it seemed like you took a peculiar turn. I certainly agree with the basic premise. Just his week I succumbed to a 5DIII. I hesitate to say an "upgrade" from the 7D, because I still love the 7D and intend to keep using it.

I debated long and hard between a 6D, waiting for the 7DII and pulling out, what for me was, all the stops and going for a 5DIII. Part of my justification was that it is so good I think it will satisfy me for years to come. I think a challenge facing all camera makers, but especially Canon and Nikon, is that their products are now so good that there is little reason for buyers to jump to the next generation.

So, I guess I agree with the premise that it will take some "mouth watering" new features to get many current owners to upgrade. Personally, I'm not sure that for full frame sensors there is much that can be done to entice current owners. I'm amazed at how well the 5DIII sells (check out Amazon's best selling DSLRs). It's incredible to me that a $3,000 camera is selling as well as $500 cameras. I've got to think that many of those buyers are like me – rationalizing it as a camera that will satisfy them for the next 10 years or so.

With APS-C I think there is still sufficient room for improvement to entice current owners to upgrade. If the 7DII makes some significant improvements in the sensor, I'll have a hard time resisting. But, I'll also want 5D quality autofocus and a few other goodies.

Frankly, I think another challenge all manufacturers face is not only that the technology has matured, but the customer base is aging out.  I think it is going to be very hard for Canon and Nikon to attract younger buyers and I think some of the their recent models show they are pretty desperately trying anything they can think of, but don't seem to be having much success.

The best hope for Canon and Nikon (at least temporarily) may be an expanding world economy. If the economies in the currently underdeveloped world improve, they may get a temporary boost, as they have with China. Other than that, I'm guessing all manufacturers will have to learn to live with a market that is growing at a much slower pace than in the past several years.

Canon and Nikon may actually be the best positioned to adapt to the changing market, because until the explosion of digital technology, I'm pretty sure the growth in the film and SLR market was pretty modest.

Very good points -especially the bit about the economy in general shrinking. 

258
EOS Bodies / Re: Wait for the Canon 5D Mark IV or get the Mark III?
« on: October 25, 2013, 04:22:54 PM »
I'd say it's 1 to 1.5 years out.
We better start a new thread on the potential specs of 5D MK IV really soon ;D

i won't be satisfied unless it is over 80MP's with 1342 stops of DR, I also want it to make coffee, and have 2 million AF points....lol

259
People that are satisfied taking pictures with there phones most likely never where in the DSLR market to begin with.
Thats just the social pic snappers people that like good quality pics will always want a DSLR but hey its recession/crisis. My free spendable income keeps going down as insurancen, Food and everything keeps going up in price and my income isnt going up.
so i simply do not have money for thoustant dollar bodys and multi thousant dollar lenses.
The last generation canon lensen have had some seriously absurd price gains which most normal non professionals simply can no longer afford.



I agree here, it's not the smartphones eating into the dSLR market, the smartphones kill the P&S cameras.
I think several things come together for dSLRs:

1) the dSLR market is quite mature now. In a decade, a remarkable improvement happened in sensor technology, so there was incentive to switch from film to digital, there was incentive to upgrade to a new model dSLR. So, there was a big "bubble" so to speak of pent up demand that could be satisfied. Many people that would buy a dSLR have one by now probably. Now, I think the market will return more to a level situation where you go through normal replacement cycles. People will think twice before they buy a new body, "does it really give much more than what I already have?" That's why Canon and everybody is also pushing the video area, to keep adding new features and thereby a market sector not yet saturated. Even that is not enough anymore, as camera makers are looking into medium format, and security camera businesses.
Pushing more megapixels (D800) down the throat of people is probably not giving the huge sales increases hoped for - many people realize that files get huge and the improvement in quality is minimal if one doesn't invest time and effort to get the maximum out of the sensor. And most images are viewed on screens that don't have such a high resolution. Likewise, the dynamic range wars (whether 12 or 14 stops) are incremental gains that will not cause a huge boost to the market.
 Of course, there will always be pros, and tech users that go for the top - as with computers, where gamers build their own customized ultimate gaming machines, but this is a limited market.

2) As pointed out, weak economy, people need to save.

3) Maybe less newcomers to the market. There tend to be fads of what's a hot hobby, maybe the hype for pictures is somewhat dying down, people being oversaturated with images flooding the web.


So, the only way to get a lot of people to buy new cameras is with a substantial innovation in sensor technology.

Agreed!  Well, mostly agree - "it's not the smartphones eating into the dSLR market, the smartphones kill the P&S cameras."  A product gets replaced when either A something better comes around, or B, it gets broken, lost, stolen, you baby pukes on it, you brother drops it in the pool,  - or you use it all the time and it's just time to replace it, etc etc etc.    If when you leave the house you look at your little slr bag say 90% of the time, i don't want to lug that around then it's gonna be used less, less miles = less wear and tear, less chances for it to be broken and or stolen, or any of the other calamities mentioned above.  If you use it less, then the need to upgrade is less, and while yeah there are obvious benefits of going from like a rebel to a 70d, or a 6d, etc etc, is there a need when my cell phone seems to do just fine and hell, i can bring my cell phone anywhere ---

And this is a biggie here --- think of how many awesome events people would love to bring their cameras too but can't because the venue does not allow pro gear (which most venues describe as anything with an interchangeable lens).  Stuff like that leads to a lot of leaving the camera at home...

this i do think would lead to less people taking the leap into the slr market - which leads right to where I totally agree --- the slr market is a mature market, less people are jumping in.  Last year both canon and nikon released pro bodies and people bought them, that buying frenzy has slowed and we're now between product cycles.  Yeah, there's a new rebel and the new 70d, and nikon has their equivalent models --- and if you ask me, that's the market that will suffer from the growing use of cell phones.

Let's face it, the marketing side is based off of the upgrade path:

1 - wow, loving taking pics on my cell phone, but want more control
2 - nice, bought my first P&S
3 - lost it, just bought the next model up
4 - the limitations are frustrating me - time to upgrade - first slr
5 - now it's time to buy lenses

that was the basic path, you can add step 6 and 7 and 8 for those that want to take the next step --- but for the bulk of the consumer market.  But now we are in the social network age, and this is where cell phones jack everything up.  the average consumer cares more about instant access than quality.  Yeah, the slr shot can be printed huge, but does that get my picture to facebook any easier?  Adding wifi to slr's does help on this side, but, I think slr's at least in the consumer bracket need a more robust web interface if they are to compete with cell phones in that market.

Of course, then there's the pro market, which will care about quality, which will whine about DR, banding, all the stuff we hear all the time here.  But the pro market would be the mature part, the part that will only upgrade where it makes sense - and other than a few lenses, there's not much new and interesting going on - and - one should point out that there shouldn't be - pros don't want to be recycling camera bodies every year - for most pros the natural 3-4 year cycle is about how long we want to be using a body.  Other than that, it's lenses, and with L lenses we all know they hold their value and they don't degrade in quality as fast as a camera body - so new lens sales don't happen as often (unless they do kick ass rebate, just snagged me a 24mm 1.4 new because with the 4% back from B&H and the $200 rebate, that's close enough to used cost to make the leap).     

260
I would much rather have an extra battery in my pocket than a large hunk of magneseum hanging off the bottom of my camera just to double the battery capacity.

It's not so much about battery capacity as it is about ergonomics, and better balance with larger lenses.  After a day of shooting with a 70-200/2.8 or 100-400 on a non-gripped body, my hand hurts. With a gripped body, it does not - And the integrated grip of the 1-series bodies makes them more comfortable to hold than other bodies with an accessory grip.

Yeah,
i have been shaking my head at the posts regarding the grip...  LOL guess weather sealing ...whgo cares about that right, lets make the grip removable and expose some parts to moisture that wouldn't have been exposed with an integrated grip....ugggg

261
Not releasing anything interesting except the 70D could have something to do with it.
Yep. When your competitors are experimenting with new models and new lines, and all you're doing is giving minor updates to your existing stuff, you lose market share. Ask Apple.

Did you not read what neuroanatomist said above?  Canon's competitors, who supposedly have superiorproducts, are having a worse time of it!

Where does he say that?


food for thought --- http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/08/08/us-nikon-earnings-idUSBRE9770EH20130808

262
Not releasing anything interesting except the 70D could have something to do with it.
Yep. When your competitors are experimenting with new models and new lines, and all you're doing is giving minor updates to your existing stuff, you lose market share. Ask Apple.

Did you not read what neuroanatomist said above?  Canon's competitors, who supposedly have superiorproducts, are having a worse time of it!

love how people pretty much read the title here and filled in the blank with what seems obvious to THEM ---it must be the D800...  but both canon and nikon are getting their buts kicked by cell phones.

So if you want innovation, it's time for canon and nikon to cut their P&S offerings and start making at least parts for cell phone, if not their own cell phone.  Either of them could design and manufacture sensors and little lenses for cell phones, so that would probably be the smarter path rather than trying to pry peoples galaxies and iphones from their hands. 

263
Lagging behind the opposition in the mega pixel stakes can't help either

Last i checked, it's lesser quality, lesser mp's that are winning here - cell phones are the thing eating into sales, not nikons new bodies.  It's the convenience factor - convenience and accessibility.  No one that's thinking, should I get a powershot or just use my iphone is thinking, but there's that d800...lol

264
6D Sample Images / Re: Anything shot with a 6D
« on: October 22, 2013, 04:40:14 PM »
a few new ones for ya.


265
Software & Accessories / Re: software for designing wedding albums
« on: October 22, 2013, 01:56:55 PM »
Indesign is a big program to learn, especially like any adobe product like photoshop.  It is the industry standard, along side with Quark when it comes to creating catalogs, flyers, brochures, books, etc...  You will have create everything from scratch assuming you dont have a template to jump off of...  You can create some awesome albums with indesign, but learning how to do it isn't as intuitive. Good luck with your endeavors.

the other issue with indesign ---I am still on the fence with this whole Creative Cloud thing.  So if I were to take a few weeks to learn indesign - then comes the hard question...do i pay $29 a month to use it?  Or do i go wit the full suite (I don't need it, but it would get me the updated PS).  I really wish I could find more people who have tried both fotofusion and indesign - cause right now, other than lots of grey hair, not seeing what makes indesign so much better (unless overly complicated = better...lol)

I'm with you on the Adobe CC. I refuse to rent my software.

I purchased Adobe Production Premium Suite....CS6.

I got mine from amazon.com where you can still get CDs....but if you want CS6 and can't find it on amazon, you can still get it from Adobe for download purchase. CS6 is good for me and I'm not RENTING my software, I'll not succumb to that either for quite awhile if I can help it.

Link for buying CS6 from Adobe:

http://www.adobe.com/products/catalog/cs6._sl_id-contentfilter_sl_catalog_sl_software_sl_creativesuite6.html?promoid=KFPHN

I personally applied to a local community college...only had to do application fee of about $20, and send in some transcripts. I got an .edu email address and photo student ID, and never had to sign up for a class, but I could and did use this to qualify for the Adobe Educational discount.
And yes, according to Adobe FAQs...you can use the educational versions for commercial usage for profit.
:)

HTH,

cayenne



LOL..hey, go for what works for ya....

I looked at CS6 and previous versions...and what currently was in CC.

I don't see THAT many updates that they've doing between CS6 and CC so far that would be deal killers for me.
And frankly, I'm not that conviced that once Adobe gets everyone locked into the rental mode with CC, that they'll be terribly motivated to keep innovating and coming up with new things and upgrades.

It actually just doesn't make that much fiscal sense to put too much time and effort into R&A once they have everyone paying monthly fees.

But even if they do..the upgrades in the past usually didn't warrant most people upgrading on every new version put out by Adobe, so, I'm hesitant to thing they will need that now either.

If you go that route (inDesign and CC)...do make sure and update this thread to let us know your progress with the software and your business doing albums!!!

C

I hear ya man, it's not an easy call to make, especially because now that i am getting used to it, I rather like the indesign interface (while fotofusion is easy to use, it definitely feels like a downgrade now).

If the cost of indesign cs6 wasn't so high, i would for sure consider that as an option...but as of now - $600 - out of pocket vs $29 monthly, or going with the full suite for $50...or worse, spending $300 on fotofusion now then getting frustrated...LOL...  I think for sure fotofusion is off my radar now.b  It's really a matter of spend a big chunk now, or spend a big chunk, but over time...the over time idea sounds better...

As sucky as it is, I am thinking go ahead and go cloud.  I looked on ebay for the previous version, and it would run around $600!!!! (more if i wanted the fully updated version).  So to put that in rental terms --- I could spend $600 now on the older version which means I would never upgrade it - or - I could spend that same $600 over the course of 20 months (close to 2 years).  Eventually lightroom will be cloud only, and eventually I will want to upgrade my PS....so...dang it adobe...you got your claws in me!!!!!

266
Software & Accessories / Re: software for designing wedding albums
« on: October 21, 2013, 05:07:55 PM »
Indesign is a big program to learn, especially like any adobe product like photoshop.  It is the industry standard, along side with Quark when it comes to creating catalogs, flyers, brochures, books, etc...  You will have create everything from scratch assuming you dont have a template to jump off of...  You can create some awesome albums with indesign, but learning how to do it isn't as intuitive. Good luck with your endeavors.

the other issue with indesign ---I am still on the fence with this whole Creative Cloud thing.  So if I were to take a few weeks to learn indesign - then comes the hard question...do i pay $29 a month to use it?  Or do i go wit the full suite (I don't need it, but it would get me the updated PS).  I really wish I could find more people who have tried both fotofusion and indesign - cause right now, other than lots of grey hair, not seeing what makes indesign so much better (unless overly complicated = better...lol)

I'm with you on the Adobe CC. I refuse to rent my software.

I purchased Adobe Production Premium Suite....CS6.

I got mine from amazon.com where you can still get CDs....but if you want CS6 and can't find it on amazon, you can still get it from Adobe for download purchase. CS6 is good for me and I'm not RENTING my software, I'll not succumb to that either for quite awhile if I can help it.

Link for buying CS6 from Adobe:

http://www.adobe.com/products/catalog/cs6._sl_id-contentfilter_sl_catalog_sl_software_sl_creativesuite6.html?promoid=KFPHN

I personally applied to a local community college...only had to do application fee of about $20, and send in some transcripts. I got an .edu email address and photo student ID, and never had to sign up for a class, but I could and did use this to qualify for the Adobe Educational discount.
And yes, according to Adobe FAQs...you can use the educational versions for commercial usage for profit.
:)

HTH,

cayenne

As sucky as it is, I am thinking go ahead and go cloud.  I looked on ebay for the previous version, and it would run around $600!!!! (more if i wanted the fully updated version).  So to put that in rental terms --- I could spend $600 now on the older version which means I would never upgrade it - or - I could spend that same $600 over the course of 20 months (close to 2 years).  Eventually lightroom will be cloud only, and eventually I will want to upgrade my PS....so...dang it adobe...you got your claws in me!!!!!

267
Software & Accessories / Re: software for designing wedding albums
« on: October 20, 2013, 08:37:15 PM »
Do you *know* what your customers "need" or "want"? How much extra income rides on climbing this hill? How much will customers in your area pay for this form of output? Do you find that lack of a book option will lose the entire client $$? I can't answer the questions I pose but you may have figured this out already. InDesign will alow more flexibility so if your competitors are making simple books now then 1. some of them will graduate to InDesign, and 2. you have to have a better product to compete right out of the box.

When I made some books I found the easier tools had limitations but that they would accept big PDFs or JPEGs (depended on the software) created from Photoshop to incorporate, say, type on an image, a feature not in the service provider's interface (at that time). So there are "in-between" solutions that might avoid a full InDesign training regimen.

I have decided that I have to learn InDesign for  a few reasons. I admit I have not tried Blurb's interface inside LR. I am not shoooting weddings right now. There are other clients that will want books, though, including commercial (still photo) companies. I'd better carve out some time. I hate that feeling of helplessness at the beginning: like running in quicksand.

good q's!!!!

"Do you *know* what your customers "need" or "want"?" ----I am second year into the game here, so I am in that weird place of - there's what my current clients want...then there's what my future clients want.  My current ones would probably go with a $100-300 album.  But, next season I foresee that changing, (my guess is they'll be wanting something in the $400-800 range, year after that, the $600-1300 range.  As another wedding photographer in the area told me (he does sell $1300 albums) --- if you wantt o sell them in the future you have to have them now ---that means I kind of have to put the cart before the horse now because I don't want to be in a position where I'm in last minute mode learning software for a large album purchase ---I wanted the learning done now (and yes, sample albums too!!!).

"How much extra income rides on climbing this hill? How much will customers in your area pay for this form of output?"  ---I know there is a market for $1000+ albums here.  It may not be every client, most will opt for smaller - but - if 5 wedding clients per year go for a $1000 album and the cost to me is $300-400 to print ---that's a good $600 profit per album, x 5 - that's $3000...then there's the other side...most weddings come from referrals...what are those referrals gonna think?  Gee, I saw his work on your computer, or that one wall print...vs...wow, i just saw so and so's album...not only do i want that person, but I want an album like that!

As to indesign, I been playing with it and learning --I like it!  And, it does have more uses...just did these real quick for the website (a blog post).  I did this type of thing in PS before, and PS while it's an amazing tool is really too much for this kind of thing.  Kind of a pain, in indesign, making collages went so much smoother




So with all that in mind, thinking I should ride out this trial period, see if I can learn enough of it in the next 3 weeks or so to order a sample album, then, I get married have a honeymoon - then I jump into that freaking cloud.

268
Software & Accessories / Re: software for designing wedding albums
« on: October 19, 2013, 01:08:05 AM »
Indesign is a big program to learn, especially like any adobe product like photoshop.  It is the industry standard, along side with Quark when it comes to creating catalogs, flyers, brochures, books, etc...  You will have create everything from scratch assuming you dont have a template to jump off of...  You can create some awesome albums with indesign, but learning how to do it isn't as intuitive. Good luck with your endeavors.

the other issue with indesign ---I am still on the fence with this whole Creative Cloud thing.  So if I were to take a few weeks to learn indesign - then comes the hard question...do i pay $29 a month to use it?  Or do i go wit the full suite (I don't need it, but it would get me the updated PS).  I really wish I could find more people who have tried both fotofusion and indesign - cause right now, other than lots of grey hair, not seeing what makes indesign so much better (unless overly complicated = better...lol)

gotta love it...your words there, I went through that whole I don't get indesign rant and reading your words kind of made me say...i'm not letting that software get the better of me...so now I guess it's less of a is it worth and more of a do i want to go forward into the cloud...

269
Software & Accessories / Re: software for designing wedding albums
« on: October 18, 2013, 03:37:32 PM »
Indesign is a big program to learn, especially like any adobe product like photoshop.  It is the industry standard, along side with Quark when it comes to creating catalogs, flyers, brochures, books, etc...  You will have create everything from scratch assuming you dont have a template to jump off of...  You can create some awesome albums with indesign, but learning how to do it isn't as intuitive. Good luck with your endeavors.

the other issue with indesign ---I am still on the fence with this whole Creative Cloud thing.  So if I were to take a few weeks to learn indesign - then comes the hard question...do i pay $29 a month to use it?  Or do i go wit the full suite (I don't need it, but it would get me the updated PS).  I really wish I could find more people who have tried both fotofusion and indesign - cause right now, other than lots of grey hair, not seeing what makes indesign so much better (unless overly complicated = better...lol)

270
Software & Accessories / Re: software for designing wedding albums
« on: October 18, 2013, 03:33:20 PM »
i used lightroom 4 for a wedding album too. it is very neat from a workflow point of view. you can work directly with your raw files in an non-destructive workflow. book production at blurp allows for reasonable customization, is convenient and very good quality - no "fotopaper" though. lightroom 5 allows for improved control over the template.

I'm learning my way around LR5 myself right now.

I'd also throw in..if you're on the mac side of the computer house, you might also consider Apeture 3..it is a great little image tool from Apple, and it has some pretty flossy book making tools too!!

Lots of templates come with it, and of course, you can make your own stuff from scratch or just even start modifying their templates.

If you're gonna be selling something high dollar like wedding albums...don't skimp out on diving in and trying to thoroughly learning a tool to make something that is as important to a couple as this thing will be...for the lifetime of their marriage!!

It isn't rocket science, but takes some time and effort. YouTube is your friend...and if Adobe...hit AdobeTV on their website for tutorial videos.

And books...Lordy, I get books with tutorials to start out learning everything I'm trying to learn.
Right now on my stack:

Adobe Photoshop Pro
Adobe Premier Pro
Adobe After Effects
Davinci Resolve

Whew...always busy with learning something new on this hobby....but while your doing good on researching the tools you want....it almost sounds like taking time for tutorials, reading and really learning the tool sounds like a drudgery type after thought.  I hope I'm reading your wrong on this....easy to do on a text only forum, but you gotta learn your tools, especially if you're doing this for peoples' memories, and even MORE importantly if you're charging them money for the job.
:)

cayenne

not on a mac...so no aperture for me...looking at the lightroom book building...it's kind of limiting.

"it almost sounds like taking time for tutorials, reading and really learning the tool sounds like a drudgery type after thought.  I hope I'm reading your wrong on this."  Not the case...I am down to watch and learn, but, would like to make a final pick for software so i can direct my learning time appropriately.  Each of the 3 pieces of software had been recommended to me and each seem to be good (at least from comments from friends and reviews, LOL, I can't even get off the ground with Fundy or with Indesign). 

Plus, I am already looking at it fro mthe standpoint of 1.5 days wasted just trying to figure out how to install and start anything up in fundy, and indesign took a long time with the whole silly cloud thing just to install the trial.  Contrast that with ---fotofusion installed quick, loads quick...and boom...I can't even get a project started in the other 2, but with ff I have a 10 page test layout ready to roll.  mind you, i have clients waiting on images, clients who I know aren't buying albums!  I can't be wasting days doing tutorials learning software i may not buy or use. 

Indesign, while it's adobe and it's a industry standard, is there enough bang wow to it to justify putting the time into it?


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