September 16, 2014, 05:50:51 PM

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Messages - Sella174

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16
In other words, not      usefulness on APS-C formats      corner quality      color quality. Now we have a reasonable idea of what moving the goalposts is. And congrats on being preposterously arrogant!

Your question was: "What do you expect to get from an EF-S L prime that you can't get from an EF L prime?" Therefore I did not mention the current attributes of L-lenses, because you specifically asked for what it was that I couldn't already get from using EF L-lenses and thus, for instance, good colour rendition and excellent corner quality are implied by default. And, even though I most definitely am "preposterously arrogant", I still won't stoop so low as to slap derogatory labels on you.



17
Honestly Sella, are you trying to be the representative of the niche of the niche of the niche group? The group of Canon users who, just will not agree to anything or anyone and want the most bizarre products to be produced by Canon, and only make up 0.00............1% of Canon users?

Read what I wrote, not what others told you that I wrote. Then learn to think for yourself, instead of having others think for you.

Finished? Now go look up the profit Canon's photographic division made last year and calculate what is 1% (the figure you so randomly plucked from others' posts) of that amount. That is the amount of additional money Canon could have made on each and every product made specially for us "niche of a niche of a niche 1% group of Canon users". Instead, we're spending that amount as a baseline elsewhere.

Think for yourself. Am I right or am I wrong?

18
So total light doesn't matter for image noise, only pixel size?  You do, indeed, have a sense of humor…perhaps that is some compensation for your poor understanding of how sensors work.

You stated that "larger sensors collect more total light". By using the term "sensors", you imply the whole sensor, i.e. all the photosites together. Then you use the phrase "total light", which implies all the light illuminating the total area of the sensor.

Now, because a "full-frame" sensor is larger in area than a "crop-frame" sensor, by simple geometric calculation a "full-frame" sensor indeed does collect more "total" light than a "crop-frame" sensor. BUT, the amount of light collected by the "full-frame" sensor for the area in its centre equal in size to that of the "crop-frame" sensor, is the same amount of light that the "crop-frame" sensor collects in totality.

(For the sake of the following, assume both sensors have the same end-resolution of, say, 18MP.)

The rub comes with the size of the photosites. As we stand today, the size of the photosites of a "full-frame" sensor are larger than those of a "crop-frame" sensor. This means that one photosite of a "full-frame" sensor collects more light than a photosite of a "crop-frame" sensor simply because it has a larger area that is illuminated. On a "crop-frame" sensor, that same area equal to the size to one photosite of a "full-frame" sensor is shared by several photosite. Thus they also have to share the light falling on said area.

This means that a "full-frame" sensor with the same photosite density as a "crop-frame" sensor will perform equally to the "crop-frame" sensor in terms of image quality ... and, of course, vice versa.

19
You've moved them so much I've lost track -- where was that again?

Actually, I only moved them once: back to their original positions. It is you and your friends who keep moving them about due to assumptions based on hero-worship and indoctrination.

20
don't forget that these ef-s primes will be priced like ef primes if they did exist.  So a market of folks that won't spend more than $800 on a body will obviously be more than willing to spend $1500 on one lens.

Price check on the 70D is about $1000. The upcoming 7D2 will be, what, about $1500. Whatever, because the price of the camera is irrelevant to this "EF-S L-prime" discussion. The fact is that such lenses would be, as some have said, an "investment" that will last several cameras.

For example, given the sales volume difference, it's possible that EF-S L primes would be more expensive than comparable EF L primes.

I was not asking for Canon to make EF-S lenses for which there are already EF lenses available. I was asking for lenses for which there are no equivalent EF primes, like for example an EF-S 35mm f/1.8 L MACRO or an EF-S 10mm f/4 L or an EF-S 75mm f/1.2 L ... or an ...

21
He's going to tap-dance around this as well: he'll say sure, a bigger sensor captures more light, but if Canon put Sony-quality sensors in their APS-C cameras that would be almost as good as Canon's FF (other than 1DX).

I think he's moved the goal posts all the way to Antarctica already, let's see if how long it takes to hit the next continent.

What happened? You're suddenly back at stage one.

22
Um, okay, but that's not what I asked. At least, that's not what I intended to ask. Let me add the missing letter to my question:

What do you expect to get from an EF-S L prime that you can't get from an EF L prime?

You are moving the goalposts, but what the hey ... I'll walk right into it, so's you-know-who can have a giggle.

An EF-S L-prime would take advantage of the shorter "back-focus" distance. This could possibly eliminate the need for a retro-focal design in certain focal lengths, as an example. If you don't know why this is desirable, then you also wouldn't understand it if I explained it to you. And I suspects you don't, which why you also cannot fathom the point of EF-S primes (L or not).

23
Larger sensors collect more total light ...

True, because a "full-frame" sensor covers a larger area (864mm2) than a "crop-frame" sensor (337.5mm2). Basic geometry.

... meaning better IQ.

Wrong, because it is the size of the photosites (and cross-talk between them) that determines image quality, together with the lens.

Feel free to argue the point, but you'll only succeed in making yourself look more foolish.

You're still at stage one, neuroanatomist. Others are already at stage four. Come on, hup, hup, hup!

24
I'm sure he'll move the goalposts again, though.

Yes, back to their original positions!

25
You seem to be a niche within a niche within a niche, within a niche, and no canon isn't going to tailor make a custom rebel with 7d AF, AFMA, and EF-S primes just for you.   

I never said I wanted all that in a "Rebel" camera. If Canon had released the 60D with the same (general) specs as the 70D, then I would have bought one ... then. However, technology has moved on, hence I did not and will not buy the 70D.

26
(you're becoming predictable, you walked right into that one)

So I have ... and you made the archetypical stage four response.  ;)

27
Your just going in circles now.

No, it only looks like it because you are standing still.

Basically you want a crop 1dx in a rebel body with a rebel price and EF-S primes to go along with that????

No and I have never said this.

28
... but coincidentally a colleague who has a 20D told me yesterday that he looked at the 70D and 6D, and has decided to buy the 6D.  In his words, "The 6D's AF is basically the same as my 20D, but the full frame sensor is much better."

This is too good to pass up on ... Consumer opinion: the AF-system of the 6D is basically the same as ancient technology.  :D

29
Try putting decent lenses like a 24-70/2.8L II, a 135/2L, or a Sigma 35/1.4A on a 70D, then shooting moving subjects indoors in a gymnasium, theater, or even typical living room.  You'll likely be at ISO 3200 or higher...and the resulting image quality will be nowhere even close to 'on par' with the same lenses on a FF camera.

Wrong, because you are using the characteristics of the sensors in order to draw a conclusion about the size of the sensors. Question: would your comparison still hold true if Canon placed a cropped version of the 1DX sensor in the (eventually) upcoming 7DII camera; or the inverse, if Canon placed an upscaled version of the 70D sensor into a (hypothetical) 1DXs camera?

30
No, wow you need to take a moment and actually read.  What we're saying is the majority of crop users will buy the kit and no more.  Then there's few who like photography enough to take things to the next level, those are the people that buy L glass and aspire to FF - those are your hobbyists, enthusiasts and maybe future pros.

And I am also saying that you should take a moment and read (...). The "next level" and "buy L glass" does not per definition also include "aspire to FF". I know that that is how Canon has been marketing their DSLR system for years now, and that that is how nearly everyone on this forum understands it, but it is simply not written in stone.

Think about this: if all/most hobbyists, enthusiasts and maybe future pros are only shooting for "full-frame", then why are "crop-frame" systems like micro-4/3 and X even selling? Granted, sales are not anywhere near that of Canon's Rebel jobbies, but that is not their intended target market. Look at how good those systems sell and some of the lenses aren't exactly cheap, e.g. the D.ZUIKO 75mm and the FUJIFILM 56mm? It simply means that "full-frame" is not as important as Canon has led you to believe; but that quality is important, irrespective of the form-factor of the sensor/system.

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