October 22, 2014, 11:30:28 PM

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Messages - Sella174

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If everything revolves around everything else, the sun must also revolve around the earth unless the sun and/or the earth aren’t part of everything.

Basic physics. Perhaps read a book about it ... or go watch Takalani Sesame.

Chuck, you sound like you have an understanding of the viewpoint of the majority of dSLR buyers.  Fortunately for Sella174 (and unfortunately for the rest of us), I don't think comprehension is contagious…

But why, o great neuroanatomist, do you not then conform to the majority of DSLR owners and own only a "Rebel" with a single kit lens. Why, oh, why have you turned your back on the majority ... and joined the minority by purchasing a 1DX and heaps of L-glass?

Gotta say something about this ---Rebel owners aren't excluded from any of L lenses - in fact, it's FF owners who are excluded from using EF-S lenses.  Hell, some even LIKE using L glass on crop cameras because of the crop factor - one can make a very valid argument that things like soft corners aren't an issue as much using L glass (not just primes) on crop because your getting the sweet spot of the lens!  Either way, on any given day if you followed the path of 100  first time slr buyers, how many of them will actually pursue photography in more than a very casual manner?  My guess is not that many.  I am not saying that in spite, or to be insulting - whats wrong with just wanting a nice camera to take pics of the kids????

I completely agree with that in general.

However, why do the "higher-end" cameras have (or should that be, need) AFMA? Whatever the reason (manufacturing tolerances or deliberate), just because the "Rebel" jobbies lack said functionality, an L-prime in all probability will not work/focus 100% (or even 98%) on said "Rebel" camera(s). This effectively prevents "Rebel" owners from using L-primes on their cameras ... or the other way around, preventing people already owning L-primes from using "Rebel" cameras. (To prove last statement, the 700D is a better camera than my ancient 30D ... in most respects. It thus prevents upgrading through downgrading.)

Photography Technique / Re: Help, I've lost my mojo!
« on: June 09, 2014, 04:45:23 PM »
This happened to me some years back when I started using zoom lenses. Photography became boring ... and heavy. I switched back to primes ... and the magic returned.

EF-S primes ... so that the 100D makes sense.

In camera games, including ScummVM ... for those boring conferences.

A true B&W sensor (in the 70D) ... each photosite is an actual pixel.


OK, I get it. Canon is playing the numbers game: the once-off sale of a "Rebel" camera to a "soccer mom" is sustainable because there are 4 billion people on earth. No way that market is ever going to dry up.

In any case, any impression of personal attack was unintentional and I extend my apologies.

Accepted, and therefore a shall read the rest of your post.

1. You say you study people/societies/companies/governments: Do you mean professionally (...)? If not, what is the method of observation? What parameters or metrics do you use, for example, to say Canon is clueless about what the market wants. An experienced analyst will have access to the market demands as well as evidence of Canon's ignorance in this case. Do you?
It is okay if you do not know, but to not know and pretend to is not going to work in a forum filled with intelligent people.

I look at what others do, try to determine why they do it, then look whether it succeeds or not. Then, when I see somebody else doing the same that has already failed, I conclude that else isn't exactly thinking.

2. The fact that earth revolves around the sun does not depend on the point of reference. Even if sun and earth are revolving around something, still the statement is true. For example, even though the earth and the moon are both encircling the sun, it is correct to say the moon revolves around the earth.

I said, and I quote, "everything revolves around everything else". It was 100 who unfortunately misinterpreted that to mean that the sun revolves around the earth.

3. Profit margins and stocks aren't equal, but they are connected. In either case you aren't comparing any tangible parameters at all, just blowing hot air, so you should be one to talk!

Yes, they are connected ... only not in the way you connected them. You cannot directly compare the profit margin of Company A to the value of the stocks of Company B, and then draw conclusions based on it.

4. Crippling cameras: ... However, AFMA on Rebels: it is standard for entry level items not to come with luxury extras (yes, AFMA is a luxury that you only need with fast, accurate lenses- on a f/3.5-5.6 zoom it does not matter). When you want regular coffee, all you get with it is cream. You buy a latte for twice the price, you get steamed milk. That's how all companies serve- you pay a premium for premium services. Doesn't matter how much it costs to offer it.

That is a very condescending attitude towards owners of "Rebel" cameras. It is also, IMO, a shortsighted one if you are in the business of selling cameras AND LENSES. Basically, you are excluding an owner of a "Rebel" camera from purchasing an L-prime; from which this person will probably migrate to FF as and when the ol' wallet permits.

It is very interesting when we compare this attitude of removing "advanced" features by certain camera manufacturers with what other companies do. Take, for example, Microsoft and how they are packaging their Office program. Oh, yes, they have various different packages containing different combinations of the programs. But Word is Word, irrespective of whether it is the Student or the Full version. And how many features of Word or Excel does the average user use? I've read figures of 20% ... but it is not the same 20% for everyone. Thus Word is usable by a really wide audience, i.e. big market.

L EF-S prime: Who will an EF-S L prime serve? Every single person who wants to buy a crop camera is either someone who never plans to upgrade and will be happy with kit lenses OR has an eye on upgrading in the near future. The former do not care about primes, and the latter will benefit from buying FF-compatible lenses. And you must agree, Canon has brought out excellent non-L primes for very reasonable prices (ok, eventually reasonable). A friend of mine, quite well off, didn't buy the 35/1.8 because it wasn't part of a kit. Even though she specifically wanted to shoot low-light images of her toddler. She settled for the 50/1.8 just because it is cheaper. So, where is the market for an L EF-S prime?

Are you not now doing what you are accusing me of doing: basing a statement of fact on a single person? But that aside, yes, "eventually reasonable" because nobody bought them and Canon HAD TO LOWER the price to get units moving off shelves.

Also, really, not everyone aspires towards a FF camera ... well, at least not until Canon gets the pixel density up to the same as their current APS-C sensors.

5. You cite some random companies- does that imply trendsetter-based marketing is the usual strategy. Yes, it is occasionally applied (under the situations I mentioned), but generally marketing strategy is very conservative and incremental. Even then, your examples show nothing. How about one single proper illustration of the concept (there are many examples out there, I just want to see if you know what you are talking about).

One single example, huh? How about the fashion industry? Who sets the trends? Definitely those folks at Cannes, the Oscars and, in Europe, of the royal families. Who does not set the trend? Sods like me who wear functional clothes ... usually mud encrusted and grime smeared.

6. You use macros and telephotos and yet say the two f/2.8 zooms serve everyone. Good one, I think I shall stop wasting my time arguing with you at this point.

The point of debate was that Sony only has four lenses for the FE-mount, but Canon has a gazillion and one. My point was simply that of all the available Canon lenses, those two (the 24-70mm and the 70-200mm) are the lenses most recommended BY MEMBERS OF THIS FORUM to others seeking advice on purchasing a lens (of the L-zoom-type). So, the deduction is that if everyone recommends them, then, on the assumption that they also actually own them, those two lenses are the lenses that suffices in most consumers' needs.


Most of your points have been properly addressed by other forum members, so I shall just add a few points:

1. You say you study people/societies/companies/governments: Do you mean professionally (for your sake, I rather hope not)?

The bold part is as far as I read your post. If you cannot post without making personal remarks, then whatever you have to say is not worth it.

If you ask a typical 'entry level' user (those who buy the majority of cameras), may very well think "Kelvin" is a character on the TV show Lost, or an offensive guard for the Pittsburgh Steelers.  Of those who know that it's a unit of temperature (albeit one they've never seen on a thermometer), almost none of them will associate it with color temperature for white balance (assuming they even set WB to anything other than Auto, assuming they even get their cameras out of fully automatic mode).  Maybe you feel the need for Kelvin WB on an entry-level dSLR…but once again, you are in the minority (an even more miniscule minority than usual, in this case).

The Kelvin scale is part of the science curriculum taught in secondary schools over here in southern Africa.

But given what you've written, why does Canon then include that colour-shift graph thing in ALL THEIR CAMERAS?

As for the SD slot in the 5DIII, most likely the camera had simply entered the design-locked period of development when the Secure Digital UHS-I standard came out.  Perhaps it escaped your notice that the SD slots in the 1DsIII and 1D IV are similarly 'throttled'.  The 6D is compliant with UHS-I and supports faster SD card writes, as are all cameras of a more recent design age than the 5DIII (e.g. 70D, T5i/650D, EOS M).

I said I just wrote what I've read ... yet you pounce ... on nothing!

For the 'enthusiast with three or so lenses' there are EF-S lenses that deliver excellent IQ (10-22, 17-55/2.8, 15-85), and there are L-series lenses.  Canon has provided those folks with plenty of options. 

None of those three are primes. All L-primes are "full-frame" and a thus "wasted" on a "crop-frame" camera.

Canon is primarily interested making a profit.  A market segment is important to them only insofar as it has the potential to generate that profit.  Whether or not you, me, or anyone else is 'genuinely OK with' that is totally irrelevant to Canon.

In order to make a profit, COMPANY must sell stuff to consumers. If the consumers do not like what COMPANY offers, then COMPANY doesn't sell stuff and thus COMPANY doesn't make a profit. Irrelevant indeed.

Some advanced features are left out, in part, because they generate expensive support calls.  E.g.. AFMA is not useful to many Rebel Users, but would probably generate a lot of self-inflicted focus wounds.

Classifying a "feature" as "advanced" is irrelevant. What matters is whether it is purely firmware-based and excluded. If so, then the camera IS deliberately crippled ... and thus both neuroanatomist and unfocused are wrong. So what do YOU want to be: right or wrong?

He has a full-length couture mirror.

No, because it wouldn't work ... my kind doesn't reflect in mirrors.

In fact, (a) is merely your personal, biased viewpoint.  Canon produces cameras that meet the needs of the majority of dSLR buyers worldwide, and they've done so for well over 10 years.
(a) I love it when people talk about "crippling" a product. This is simply code for saying that you want to pay for a t3i and get a 1Dx. Every company with every product line differentiates their products and models.

Kelvin WB is not available on the "entry-level" cameras, yet it is simply a piece of coding that is deliberately disabled/not included. Or the (apparent - I don't own one, just read about it on the forums) throttling of the SD slot in the 5D3 camera. Why is this done, as neither of these examples will turn said camera into a cheap-o 1DX equivalent camera?

Regarding (b), obviously Canon has determined that a line of L-series lenses which work only on APS-C cameras would not add to overall profits.  Most dSLR buyers have only the kit lens (sometimes two) that came with the camera.  Many (most?) of those who buy multiple lenses aspire to a FF body, meaning less motivation to buy expensive lenses that would be incompatible (and from Canon's point of view, the converse is good – having EF lenses makes it easier for crop users to buy a more expensive, higher profit margin FF camera).

So what you are saying is that (a) Canon is primarily interested in the lucrative "entry-level", one kit lens-only market, thus per implication that the enthusiast with three or so lenses is unimportant; and that (b) the objective is to get everyone to eventually "upgrade" to FF gear, where the profit margin for Canon is ludicrously high. Are you serious? And are you genuinely OK with this?

(b) Prime lenses are a niche market. ...

Here we run again around the niche marketplace ... no thanks.

Do you also ask for proof that the earth revolves around the sun?

Depends on the point of reference: since the centre of the universe is unknown, everything revolves around everything else.

Unless your opinion is the center of the universe the sun doesn’t revolve around the earth.

It is always nice when people react in a predictable manner. (Did you even remotely understand what I wrote ... about relativity?)

Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Any old K-mount lenses worth getting?
« on: June 09, 2014, 02:53:36 AM »
The PENTAX-M versions are the best. And really don't throw away that 50mm f/1.7 lens ... cheap and brilliant.

If I have to prove to you multi-million dollar firms conduct (effective) market research, then I give up.

I study what people/societies/companies/governments do, instead of what they say they do. My observations clearly show that Canon is marking time, because they have either absolutely no idea what the market wants, or they are incapable of providing it. Either way, a failure of effective market research.

Do you also ask for proof that the earth revolves around the sun?

Depends on the point of reference: since the centre of the universe is unknown, everything revolves around everything else.

How about a circumstantial evidence? Sony is down in the stocks and Canon turned a profit. Proof enough for you?

Those two "facts" are not equal: either directly compare stocks to stocks, or profit margins to profit margins.

Marketing (sic= should be market research) dept doesn't count as the few people. They record what people want, they don't impose their own wants.

Then (a) why does Canon cripple their cameras, and (b) doesn't bring out EF-S L-primes?

Trendsetter based marketing is not a basic marketing theory. Is it what they taught you at school? You should ask for your money back.

The fashion industry, Apple, Microsoft, BMW ... you listening, 'cause you're wrong ... not.

This is a very risky technique that will work only under certain conditions: Is the number of trendsetter significantly large? How likely are they to influence the rest of the market? Can the company sustain the slow growth in the beginning until the trend catches? What is the likelihood of competition waiting the initial lag phase and then ramping up just as the log phase is reached.

Is that not why marketing dept. receive the big bucks, to negate the risks?

Yes, that is one possibility. That is why I generalized it to an economically valid reason. However, unlike you I don't have access to Canon's business secrets to state it as a fact.

See above.

Don't make such comments that make you look silly just for the sake of arguments. So this is why Sony isn't bringing out FF E-mount lenses? Because very few people need them?


I am guessing you have never used a macro lens, or shoot small birds with a 70-200 f/2.8?

Macro lens: almost every week. 70-200mm f/2.8: I preferred my 400mm for LBJ's, and now use a Minolta RF 500mm with 2X converter.

You are stating the obvious, and acting smug for doing so  ::). Of course the different A7 cameras cater to different markets; my point was, bringing out the A7s while the A7/r setup is still lacking the lenses might imply that the stills market isn't as profitable as they hoped, so they are trying to boost the entire line by bringing out the video-centric model.

And you're stating your same argument ...

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