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Messages - Aglet

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EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: September 01, 2013, 02:21:10 PM »
What ISO were these outdoor crowd shots taken at?
ISO 100.


Photographically (is there such a word!) no matter what camera I was using I wouldn’t have used 100 for that type of picture, what’s the advantage?

In the case of Canon's stripey noise, when practical, one of the work-arounds to reducing the pattern noise is to use higher ISO.  Then the greater incidence of random noise can be used to obscure FPN to some extent and NR software can actually do a decent job of recovery.
No, not what you want to hear but that's a method I used sometimes while I had my PoS 5d2.
But,if you look at the DR curves for Canon's sensors, you'll see that total DR is pretty flat from 100 to 800+ on most models and only the SNR drops.
The real solution, other than waiting for Canon to improve their sensor tech, is to change or add other gear to your kit.
I've spent a pile on Nikon and Pentax and have nuthin to gripe about now unless I go back and look at the lousy raw files from my 5d2, 7d or occasionally my 60d.
You're also wasting your efforts trying to convince any of the fanboys here that they should expect more from their Canon gear; they're content to learn to live with the limitations.
Some of us expect better and hope Canon will deliver, they still do make enjoyable gear to use and great lenses..(for the most part)
6D and now the 70D are on track for improving IQ in these areas.  The future may be better.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: September 01, 2013, 01:03:54 AM »
Another one of those images "underexposed by 4 stops and pushed back". The highlights are already blown and the shadows are noisy as hell. Click on the image below.

I know, I know, I can hide the evidence. 75% luminance NR, and the noise is gone, well, most of it.

That IS a bit noisy.
I haven't paid attention to this place for a while, what are you shooting with?
What ISO were these outdoor crowd shots taken at?

And, if you think THIS is bad..
I loathed my early model 5d2 at times for how noisy it was - so I sold it.
The day I sold it, I quickly shot some 1 EV steps of smooth gray background at 100 ISO in studio.
Pushing up shades lower than metered 0 EV is an easy way to show noise.
BUT - I took a +3 EV shot, lowered it 2 EV and, if you enhance the contrast, can STILL see FPN!
I can see FPN at 0 EV, I can see FPN at EVERY EV if I move the region back to near 0 EV (even using DPP)

If there were smooth tones anywhere near midtone in an image it was possible to find V & H patterns unless using a lot of NR which then smeared luminance details and made it pointless.  At least the heaps of chroma noise could be dealt with.

FWIW, IMO, my 5d2 was a PoS! most disappointing camera I've ever owned, still managed some great shots with it, nonetheless.  Can mask some of the noise when printing large by using rough or textured papers or canvas.
I could likely tolerate a 6D or 70D, they've improved enough.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D black-cap tests
« on: August 31, 2013, 05:07:43 PM »
So beside the sensor and all the discussions about it, you've got it in your hand, is it a good body, better than the 7D ? can you post some photos there please :

Sorry, I don't have the 70D.  Nor am I likely to any time soon as I have no immediate need for it.
I'm waiting to see how the 7D2 and the D400 shake out in the next year. (Kind of hoping the 7d2 will do what I want, fewer lenses to convert saves me money)

I think it's a "good enough" body, similar to the 60D.
I found most aspects of it agreeable, I would buy it if I were in the market for such a camera.  Lots of great features and now, finally, pretty much free of the worst kinds of pattern noise problems. (YMMV)

I'd say 70D's IQ will be better than the 7D's in those circumstances where higher DR scenes may prompt the user to lift dark areas. 7D is certainly a more solid and rugged feeling body.
At price points not too different right now, I'd chose the 70D for better IQ, the 7D for slightly more speed and a more robust body.

This is good. Thank you for doing this.

You're welcome. :)
I know there are some of us who get something useful from this kind of information.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D black-cap tests
« on: August 31, 2013, 04:20:38 PM »
These are full size crops from the +4EV push of the 70D raw files (via Adobe DNG converter and ACR as per my standard test method)

There are 6 samples here and I've organized them as follows:


100 ISO - Main LCD was ON
100 ISO
200 ISO
400 ISO (bottom left corner)
800 ISO
1600 ISO (bottom right corner)

edit:  Happily (?) we see none of the vertical banding that's plagued many of Canon's recent sensors!

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: August 31, 2013, 04:16:10 PM »
I've finally posted a screenshot of the pushed ISO levels from 100 to 12,800.

70D's looking better than previous generations.

Will add full-size crops later.
what is looking better? visual results? noise reduction, less banding  etc etc

less banding.  Overall average noise levels are not much improved but there's now more randomness and less structure to the noise so it should be less objectionable than previous recent generations of Canon's crop sensors. This kind of noise is more readily handled by NR software and anyone having to lift dark areas should not be bothered by banding as badly as before.

100% crops are going up in a minute.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: August 31, 2013, 03:52:41 PM »
I've finally posted a screenshot of the pushed ISO levels from 100 to 12,800.

70D's looking better than previous generations.

Will add full-size crops later.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D black-cap tests - now with visuals
« on: August 31, 2013, 03:49:58 PM »
OK, finally took the time to put together the full stop ISO shots and bash them into a presentable form adequate for this purpose.
Shots are raw files taken at 1/200s, f/16, DLWB, all in-camera NR, ALO, and other features turned OFF.
Main LCD display is also set to OFF, except see difference it made when I forgot it ON in the first image.

Processing is done with my ACR standard of +4EV to bring the noise patterns up where you can really see them.

This camera's output at low ISO levels is a good bit cleaner with less banding than previous crop sensors like the 18MP one that debuted in the 7D and 60D.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D vs D7100 ISO Comparison at 100%
« on: August 31, 2013, 01:45:35 AM »
Quick and dirty test with description of what I did here

It's great you're doing reviews on your blog and are the first one to occupy the search engines by carpet-bombing forums, but "quick and dirty" won't do here, and you most likely know it - esp. in this case you gotta be joking :-\ ... "I shot a color chart, hand held, in fluorescent light, with AWB on both cameras, standard ISO noise reduction turned on."

One thing it might show is that Canon has some stronger edge contrast enhancement in place which might also explain the magical sharpness increase some people noticed in res charts.

You think this might turn into another long bumpy ride?  ;D

EOS Bodies / Re: Black-Cap event
« on: August 31, 2013, 01:37:59 AM »
Only 4 stops? Are you sure that's enough?  Or is that just the limit of the exposure slider?
yup, it's enough, and it's the limit of my slider.  So it's pretty consistent.

..maybe shooting in bizarre, oligochromatic light would be a good way to test auto WB?

Maybe.  If you'd like to develop a technique, fill yer boots.
Don't forget to be mindful of the filters peak admittance and asymmetrical shoulder responses and the effects that has on QE & debayering algorithms and how they differ from mfr to mfr and model to model .. and temperature.

Well, the PhD in neuroscience certainly suggests I'm a 'real' scientist.  So do the publications listed on my CV.  As for time, science often isn't a 9-5 job, which is great for me because I'd really dislike something so mundane.  But thanks for the snide remark.  Looking forward to more lens cap shots....but be careful - if you take too many, you may find yourself forgetting to take the cap off for an actual picture, and that would be a great loss.

It wasn't intended as snide.
I don't pay too much attention to you so don't know if you're for real or just a wannabe neuroscientist with a nifty avatar.
Just seems kinda odd you spend probably as much time on this forum as you do being a scientist... None of the science PhDs I work with divert so much of their energy in alternative directions.  But they're not in neurology; is that where the money is?

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: August 30, 2013, 11:12:31 PM »
New thread with 70D lens cap tests and text interpretation.  sorry no time for visuals tonite.

Happy long weekend everybody.
Go shoot something!   w i t h   a   C A M E R A.

EOS Bodies / Re: Black-Cap event
« on: August 30, 2013, 11:09:23 PM »
70D in stock at my local store.
Goin' in for some lens cap shots.

Case in point - this is how Aglet evaluates a new camera: 'pictures' with the lens cap on.  He'll then boost the black images 4-5 stops, and tell us all how crappy the 'pictures' are, and how Canon still hasn't made their sensors cameras any better.


raw files are pushed 4 stops

Do you look for bio-luminescent markers with the room lights on?

(BTW, are you a real scientist?...  cuz you sure spend a LOT more time on this forum during the work day than I'd like to see any employee of mine doing)

EOS Bodies / 70D black-cap tests - Now with samples
« on: August 30, 2013, 11:02:53 PM »
Lens cap shots.  You bet! :)

Well, I had to process them using DNG-converter 8.2rc but that's likely adequate for now.

What I can see is that the noise structure of the 70D's sensor is still typical Canon; lots of noise in the red and blue channels and still a fair bit in green but the noise structures at base ISO are mostly fine-grained and should respond well to NR software.

There is still some larger structured noise banding tho it's mostly broad horizontal banding and unlikely to severely impact most images.  Dark-sky photographers pushing to look for dim details my be about the only ones who would run into problems.

edit:  BUT - I accidentally took the first 100 ISO dark shot with the info display activated, so rear LCD was ON. The resulting noise levels were much higher (~ between 400 & 800 iso dark shots) than the next 100 iso shot when I turned the display OFF.  The 100 iso dark shot with LCD display ON had much more red channel noise than any of the other shots.

200 and 400 ISO are similar but the noise structures are (more balanced) with both H & V elements.  Again, these are quite fine and will probably respond very well to typical NR software.

Noise starts to pick up at 800 ISO, noise structure similar to iso 400

1600 and 3200 iso show increasing overall noise levels as expected.  Noise structures become a little more obvious but, again, would respond well to NR software and only pushed large areas of continuous shades or tones may bely some of this non-uniformity.

6400 and 12800 are pretty noisy and continue to show some banding structures in both H & V axis but


FPN exists but is at a workably low level and may even be comparable to Toshiba's new sensor as far as noise structures.  However, overall TOTAL NOISE is still much higher than the Sony or Toshiba sensors and this will reduce effective maximum DR somewhat but that can be partly negated with NR software.

I would not steer anyone away from using this camera, it's comparable to the 6D for noise quality and certainly bests my 60D and blows away the 7D I used to have.

If you need the ultimate in clean black levels in your raw files then this is still not the camera for you.

BUT, using some decent noise-reduction software you can comfortably use the 70D in ways that the 7D and 60D before it would disappoint.  The 70D is "good enough" for most uses unless you're as picky as I am.  I know I could still find some situations where this camera might not perform as well as I'd like.

I could also not find any significant variation in noise structure I could attribute to the areas that were normal pixels VS. the AF pixels so they've done a really good job on that.

Polite applause for Canon.  They've certainly made some progress in this model.

EOS Bodies / Black-Cap event
« on: August 30, 2013, 06:24:17 PM »
70D in stock at my local store.
Goin' in for some lens cap shots.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: August 30, 2013, 05:44:45 PM »
I've done well to stick to the topic of 70D and DxOmark, I think.
I've merely presented DxO's data in a way which tellingly demonstrates just what they measured on the 70D's sensor in comparison to what they measured to a 10 year old model. 
A per-pixel level comparison is important because this is what defines the quality of the electronics in the system.

Can we imagine how fabulous the 70D would be if it also had 2 full stops better SNR or DR?..  I'd be drooling!  The capabilities of such a CAMERA would be truly class-leading.
As it is, there's just a lot of compromising.

@Neuro; sorry, your big corp style capitalist justifications are not relevant when talking about sensor tech unless they're invested more of those profits into R&D or patent licensing to improve the foundation of the actual product, it's sensor technology.  And coming up with RESULTS.  It seems dividends were more important than technology investment in the last 10 years.
Can't argue with success tho, Canon's doing very well in that regard.

I will repeat, what they've done in the 70D with the AF ability is very impressive.  I just wish they'd also bring more than minuscule improvements to the base stills performance of ALL their sensors.

FWIW, 2012-2013 saw me liquidate a lot of newer Canon gear and give that money to Ricoh-Pentax.
I'm now only looking for a high performance crop body for long glass, dim light and high fps rates.
Will it be a 7d MkII, a D400, a K-3(?), or possibly even a new mirrorless system?
If the old 7D had less FPN, it'd have stayed in my inventory.  If the 7d2 has a vastly improved sensor, it'll top my list.

EOS Bodies / Re: 70D and Dxomark....
« on: August 30, 2013, 03:27:36 PM »
The 70D...has not improved and is slightly worse than the 9 year old 20D. 

Oh, I think it's a little better.  I hope your analysis really was quick, because I'd hate to think you wasted even more time.  Per-pixel SNR?  Funny, I haven't seen that phrase on the display placards at Best Buy or my local camera shop.  I wonder why?  I know...because notwithstanding a minuscule number of DR-obsessed Canon-bashing forum jockeys, no one who buys cameras cares.  The 70D is a massive improvement over the 20D in 99.9999% of ways that matter to people. Canon will sell loads of 70D bodies, quite likely more than the D7100 by a wide margin.

DxOMark measures sensors, but people buy cameras, not bare silicon sensors.  You can rehash DxOMark data until hell freezes over, it doesn't change the fact that Canon has been outselling Nikon for years, nor the fact that the 5DIII outsells the D800.  The obvious conclusion is that 'better' sensors (where 'better' is defined as low ISO DR) have not helped Nikon or Sony sell more cameras.

So. . you're waving a flag and cheering because the sales/SNR charts for the last 10 years look good?..  ;D

perhaps if Canon's sensors improved as much as their oft' touted sales figures these recurring discussions wouldn't exist.


I think the time I spent putting together the animated graphs and essay demonstrates that perfectly. ;)
Don't forget, I didn't just compare the 70D in a previous graph with the d7100, I deliberately chose the sub-$600 consumer-class D5200. ;)

But yes, I'd prefer a 70D to a 20D for the wealth of other improvements and the fact that, at least at base ISO, the performance is comparable with higher resolution and the few higher ISO levels I use are also still adequate.

but that doesn't change the facts about the sensor system tech |  NO SIGNIFICANT IMPROVEMENT IN 10 YEARS FOR STILL IMAGES

But maybe Canon is finally approaching a corner of sorts and, when they finally change their course, they'll be able to provide customers with actual sensor performance improvements along with all the other bells, whistles and flashing lights they're so good at adding to the mix.

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