Messages

481

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: D800 v. 5D3 threads: What should Canon's takeaway be?

« on: May 01, 2012, 01:37:27 PM »

This Canon complacency argument reminds me of Microsoft vs. Apple.
The former has huge marketshare and does enough to keep their customers coming back.  The latter actually innovates. (within relevant time spans of course)

I see different philosophies between these 2 big camera companies.  One is market share and profit driven and doles out technology in measured doses to accompish that.  The other expends more effort to engineer better photographic tools; even to the detriment of their own sales volume it seems.

Unless you're a one-camera-body shop, what's the big deal in ADDING a competitive mfr's camera system to your inventory?  You likely have a backup camera body and some glass you usually use with it.  Can you sell it and fund a D800 and use it with a lens or 2 for the applications where it would excel over your Canon gear?  Canon pro gear holds its value very well so not a big loss.

That's what I'm doing and I don't even make my living from photography at this time. 
I can sell my 5D2 and the 70-200 I recently bought and that covers a new D800 and then some.  I can sell my 7D and the 100-400 and that would cover a nice new 70-200 Nikkor.  I'll have fewer pieces of gear but the D800 will kill the 5D2 in IQ for landscape and in crop mode will perform adequately compared to the 7D for the occasional birding I used it for.

If Canon ever brings out a hi-DR and hi MP body in the future then I'll have a good excuse to pair it with one of their tilt-shift lenses if it'll outperform the D800 in landscapes.


You have a 5D3 and 5D2 as backup?.. sell the latter and the lens(es) you use with it and buy a D800 and some glass and learn how to use it.

Pros really ought to be using the best tools for the job, brand loyalty be damned.  If your work doesn't required the few benefits the D800 can provide then no worry.  If you can use it, GET it.  This is the kind of voting with your wallet that may spur Canon to provide us with a little more tech than they're otherwise planning to sell us for the next iteration.
As much as I prefer USING Canon gear, I'm also tired of being frustrated by a few serious shortcomings with it at times.  That's enough to spur me to learn some of Nikon's user interface ideosyncracies to get better results when I need them.  I think I'd rather complain about their quirky firmware and get some great shots with their gear than have a slick, easy-to-use system that can't provide the shot I want.

Having both to choose from gives me more creative options.

482

Lenses / Re: Canon 70-200 2.8 MkI vs MkII

« on: May 01, 2012, 12:08:27 PM »

I've used the original non-IS, the IS v1 and now have the IS v 2 of this lens.
they're all decent but the latest IS II is wicked sharp with much better IS and contrast.  AF is also pretty snappy but I don't do action work so can't comment on the improvement there.

Overall tho, I still prefer the older non-IS version for a nicer feel to my images, despite somewhat lower contrast and more flare prone.  The IS II seems to have a little harsher bokeh than the other two (in transition areas) but I no longer have them all side by side to compare directly.

You'll likely be quite satisfied with the performance of the /2.8 IS II

483

EOS Bodies / Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]

« on: April 27, 2012, 03:14:26 PM »

I'm starting to think the future of APS-C will be in mirrorless cameras and they're going to get phased out in the "prosumer" market.

I take this one step further and suspect once mirrorless cameras loose their 'toy' stigma, they will probably eat the full frame market too.  Once they get the electronic viewfinders up to similar quality to the optical ones, the advantages to being able to see exactly what the sensor is seeing will outweigh the 'it has a mirror!' thing.
-clip/crop-

PENTAX has that funky brick-like but surprisingly ergonomic K-01 mirrorless that uses their standard lens mount.  Great concept, I really like it, would buy one if I had Pentax glass.
http://pentax.ca/en/digital_slr/K-01/

Canon needs to consider doing the same thing with an EOS mount, crop and FF.  But dammit, use better sensors than their current offerings.

No mirror = much higher fps possible, and much less mirror-slap/bounce to blur hi-rez sensors.  Also cheaper lighter package to produce.  But make sure we have some smart AF options, not just slow contrast detection.  There are some patents that allow more predictive AF using a live-view function to speed things up.  This could be a very useful product system for the future.

And if there are some new entry level FF cameras coming, they'd REALLY better improve that low ISO performance and DR cuz I'd rather boost my Canon lineup with some TSE lenses and more FF bodies than figure out how to make the same shots on a D800 or rumored D400/D600.

Canon, make use a REAL landscape camera that can compete with the D800!  You already have some of the required glass that they don't.

484

EOS Bodies / Re: nikon d600 fullframe afordable camera!! will canon reply?

« on: April 26, 2012, 08:15:31 PM »

I just bought it! im not planning to sell it or return it yet. it is going to arrive on monday. im just considering the 30 day period trial! i love photography but it would really sucks for canon to launch a better camera than the 5dmk2 for the same price. im just saying! not personal. just wondering. thanks for the reply

There's not even a rumor of a cheaper Canon FF right now - but they sure did make a big gap in their product lineup which is still being filled by the 5D2.

We'd all like to know if something new will come along to take the 5D2's lower spot on the ladder or if it'll just disappear and leave the 5D3 as Canon's cheapest FF.

If Nikon does produce a D600 close to the rumored specs then Canon may continue to produce the 5D2 or replace it with a more competitive model (price and or features/performance) to more directly compete with it.  It's really tough to say, I'm not a marketing guru to figure out how they might respond.

I'd LOVE to see some low cost FF options from either Co. at a lower price point than present by keeping the cameras simple and minimally featured but capable of great IQ.  Problem is, that darn video feature keeps creeping into peoples' mindsets and that can handicap both price, IQ and overall stills performance.

Either way I think we'll see some very interesting products over the next 12 months from Canon, Nikon and possibly even Pentax.  Pentax' strange little K-01 hybrid is something the other guys should be considering - a mirrorless camera with a crop sensor that uses existing DSLR lenses for a good price and has a decent feature set.

Canon is rumored to be working on a mirrorless system, no word if it'll utilize or be compatible with the EOS mount tho.

Meanwhile, go enjoy your 5D2, it's one of the best things out there in that price range and the cheapest FF you can get. (Unless you want a D700?..)

485

EOS Bodies / Re: Let's see some great shots taken with old, cheap gear!

« on: April 26, 2012, 12:15:08 AM »

"Old, cheap gear" doesn't mean SLR to me. 

Before I went into DSLR I used a variety of compact PnS cameras for everyday shooting. I enjoyed the immediacy of the results and often like to explore their limitations.  Especially handy when shooting night scenes.


Hang glider launching was shot with a 2MP Canon PowerShot A20 - and it made the cover of a magazine in 2002.

Colorful little flowers were shot with a Panasonic DMC-LZ1 - I bought it new in a box for $100 at a clearance sale at my local camera shop, a very fun little camera with the stabilized 6x zoom but it didn't run for long on 2 AA batteries.

aurora was shot from my backyard with a 2MP Canon PowerShot A40 - YAY!  It had a manual mode!  which is why I upgraded to it from the A20

Lightning strikes were shot with a 5MP Canon PowerShot A610 using a cheap tripod I had with me while travelling.  I made a lot of use of this little camera, it was very capable and I still pull it out on occasion.

Hmmm... I still have ALL these oldies, not really worth the effort to sell them.

486

Software & Accessories / Latest Digital Photo Pro v3.11.26 - How's DLO working for you?

« on: April 23, 2012, 02:30:16 AM »

I just tried it on a couple landscape shots tonite.
shots i tested were made with 5D2 & 17-40mm
( I know, not a great lens for that job but TSE 24mm and 17mm are  along way off on my wish list yet )

After downloading the lens module..
The DLO function seems to work quite well on increasing apparent sharpness on low contrast textures, like stone, but when it comes to high contrast fine details like spruce needles or branches against a blue sky it shows a lot of halo and edge artifacts like unsharp mask function would produce.  It also did OK on sharpening up dry grass against sand but the higher contrast areas seem to pick up more sharpening artifacts than I like, even when dialing down the strength of it to 20 from 50.

And yes, saving the file with the DLO changes ~ doubles the size of the .cr2 (choke)

Anyone notice any other pros and cons with DLO?

487

EOS Bodies / Re: If the 1Dx shows a substantial improvment in sensor technology....

« on: April 23, 2012, 01:58:50 AM »

.. what if the 1Dx can match the D4 in DR?

I'll be pleasantly surprised. (caveat, 1Dx must have no visible banding in low ISO shadows even after a 4EV push  )

488

EOS Bodies / Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors

« on: April 22, 2012, 02:12:16 AM »

I'll grant you that I haven't shot storms. I am, however, having a hard time imagining even a fast-moving storm that would have sufficient DR that you could use a shutter speed that won't move / blur in a single D800 exposure but that would be a problem with a single pair of 6FPS 5DIII exposures (with nearly twice the resultant DR of the single D800 exposure).

have a closer look at the example from a2bart from the other link.
1/1000s, f/5, ISO100.
that held the cloud hilites and motion in check. A push in post brought up the rest of the landscape and then other localized contrast and toning was used to embellish it.
That is a real-world example of a wide DR scene nicely squeezed into the DR of a print or display. An even wider DR could be accommodated using the same methods but only if the shadow noise level of the camera was low enough to not make a mess of it - as in the Fred Miranda example.  You don't have to bring shadows up to midtones to see the noise from a camera like the 7D, you can leave them 3 stops below mid and there's still obvious banding.

When lively storms have clouds moving 100+ mph, trees thrashing around and all the foliage on the move, no camera's fast enough to capture 2 or more frames without serious movement artifacts to deal with in conventional multi-shot HDR.  I've wasted plenty of time trying to bracket such scenes and put them together in post; results were not acceptable even in slower moving weather conditions.  Not to mention re-curving a multishot HDR to try and get a natural feeling image is a hassle.  IMO, you can get a much nicer result with a simple fill-light or shadows adjustment using Adobe's products.  LR4 does this with minimal artifacting or halos and it takes about 15 seconds to do it.  More complex toning control is available if needed.

No more multi-shot HDR silliness for me unless I need to capture more than 9 or 10 stops of DR and present them all.  Even then, I'll likely get a better result from just one ETTR raw file from one of the quieter new Nikons (or older Canons) where the hilites aren't clipped.

Um...no. Not even close. The attached HDR I did with three 5D (classic) RAW exposures manually composited. And not even the D800, I'm sure, would have had a hope of a chance at doing this with a single exposure. Notice the shadows under the fern in the lower left? That's at the bottom of Muir Woods. And notice the blue sky peeking through the top center? It's still blue.

Yes, not bad if you like that sort of look but again, multishot HDR has a hard time maintaining natural looking color and contrast. The shadow levels of that one could have been left a little lower too.
And I'd love to see what I can do with 1 shot from the D800 against a 3-shot HDR on the same scene.  A nicer job in much less time, I'm thinking.   Multishot HDR has its uses, but it's not needed if the camera can handle the scene without it.  And that would be any scene where the camera's noise-free DR is at least one or 2 stops greater than the scene being shot. That means the D800 and D5100 are gonna give me 2 more stops to work with, in ONE shot, than anything from Canon at this time.

You'll also notice that dynamic range was the only advantage Fred found that the Nikon had, and it had some other very crippling focus-related problems (and, frankly, laughably inferior glass) that kept him from using it for anything real.

yes, the nikon was hindered on Fred's shoot by inferior glass and a less then adequate live view mode, pity that latter especially as it's super useful on the Canons.
But to say the the better DR was the ONLY advantage the D800 had is like saying the only advantage one of these 2 motorized vehicles has is wings.  Wings are pretty damn important if you intend to fly.

Glass is one thing causing me some consternation because Canon's latest TSE 17 and 24mm are on my wish list.  Really wish there was something comparable for the D800 so I hope Samyang pulls a supermodel out of a cake with the 24mm F-mount version they're working on.  Or maybe (chuckle) the 1DX will have a much lower noise pattern than the 5Ds...

In other words, it's the Canon, inferior DR and all, that's putting bread on his table and the Nikon that's good only for those JPEG snapshots you're referring to. And, as I've been pointing out everywhere, there's no visible resolution differences at 24" x 36".

I'd be plenty happy with the rez from my 5D2 if I could push it more. The difference in rez is secondary for this purpose. I've printed 24x36" from my 40D that looks just fine with appropriate sharpening in post, and that's at nose-to-paper distances and ~100ppi.  Getting 180+ppi at the same size would only look better at much closer to normal viewing distance. I'll take it if if I got it. No complaints about file size either. (NEF compressed raw isn't all that bad for size)

489

EOS Bodies / Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance

« on: April 21, 2012, 07:53:21 PM »

On the other hand I feel Canon is getting distracted by their desire to bridge the DSLR into the video market.  This is all noble, but could be dangerous in the long run if they continue to cripple their model because they need to keep certain feature for other model in the line up...just a thought...

+1
This is a road they've chosen to increase sales, of course.  and why not?
But, they do seem to have languished behind other Mfr's who have kept still image quality as their top priority. That and the technical requirements for doing video seem to be compromizing still IQ at a hardware level.

490

EOS Bodies / Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors

« on: April 21, 2012, 07:49:19 PM »

In what real-world situation does the 5DIII have insufficient DR but the D800 does where you wouldn't be doing multiple exposures for HDR in the first place? And let's not forget that the 5DIII can do 6 FPS fire-and-forget several-shot brackets with a just couple button presses.

You sound like you never shoot storms or other action where HDR bracketing is impractical.
HDR bracketing is great for limited DR jpegs, they should not be necessary with a properly exposed raw file.

Real world example is right here.

www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html

Just imagine it as a landscape.

here's another, less extreme:

www.a2bart.com/tech/darknoise.htm

Then again, if you and your customers are happy with snaps out of the camera that you don't care to process to look better that's fine.  Why disparage those whose artistic work is benefited by a camera that can provide a better base file?

491

EOS Bodies / Re: 5D3 and Canon's Comeuppance

« on: April 21, 2012, 07:36:20 PM »

I'm gonna reiterate some of what I just posted in a different thread.

Canon is likely quite happy with the performance of the 5D3; it's selling like crack, it actually does do a lot of things considerably better than the 5D2, at least for most of the crowd who asked for those improvements.

I sure hope they are listening to all the forum griping tho, as well as those of us who've also bothered to let them know directly, that we expected better overall sensor performance from them, especially at the low ISO end.

I really think Canon needs to look at what the competition has brought to the market and pay attention to its loyal customers who'd like some of the same without having to buy it from the competition.

There's one way to help them do that.... TELL THEM.

Because right now, the following competition products have an edge in low ISO IQ.

Nikon D800, D4, D7000, D5100 and Pentax K5.
The freshly announced Nikon D3200 is also gonna make some waves with its 24MP crop-sensor.  If it can retain the clean shadows the other bodies listed can provide, plus the simple market appeal of all those pixels at a very competitive price, it's going to steer some attention away from Canon.

Ricoh-Pentax is also about to start a renewed marketing campaign as well.  They have some great products that are a bit different in some ways, very creative.  I've been thinking of playing with some of them myself.  (That little Q is just so cute.. and capable.)

This has been a one-horse race for a while but Canon's jockey is about to start feeling some hot breathe from the competition closing in on his backside.

Even Harley Davidson eventually had to start building better bikes in the face of the competition.

492

EOS Bodies / Re: Next Canon step in the matter of their sensors

« on: April 21, 2012, 07:24:14 PM »

Canon is likely quite happy with the performance of the 5D3; it's selling like crack, it actually does do a lot of things considerably better than the 5D2, at least for most of the crowd who asked for those improvements.

I sure hope they are listening to all the forum griping tho, as well as those of us who've also bothered to let them know directly, that we expected better overall sensor performance from them, especially at the low ISO end.

I'm very curious to see how the 1DX performs, at BOTH ends of the ISO range.  There'd better be some seriously clean low ISO performance with sensor read noise as low as what the competitors are achieving.
If they can't pull it off, it will hurt their marketing in the longer term, especially if they can't compete with the likes of the D800/D4/D7000/D5100/D3200/K5.
After decades of being an all-Canon gig I've started to explore what the competition has to offer, and some of it's mighty tantalizing. So much so I've started to collect some Nikon gear and even the Pentax K5 is of some interest for a few of its unique features.

I really think Canon needs to look at what the competition has brought to the market and pay attention to its loyal customers who'd like some of the same without having to buy it from the competition.

There's one way to help them do that.... TELL THEM.

493

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: DxO results out for 5D3

« on: April 21, 2012, 02:28:38 AM »

I'm glad Fred got the stuff posted, saves me some time. 

NOW will some of you have a little more confidence in some of the numbers published and those silly-looking tests shots with the lens caps on and pushed in post or other methods we may use?.. 

These simple tests can demonstrate a lot of what goes on at the dark end of the DR range so very easily.

It's been interested to watch the progression of this thread.

Congrats to LTRLI for hitting the DR nail on the head so early and not losing patience in defending his position.

Congrats to those of you who now see and understand what some of us have been going on about for so long.  Canon's engineering is not keeping up with its marketing when a $600 consumer grade Nikon can even kick the low ISO pants off a midrange Canon costing nearly 6x as much.

5D3's a much improved, low-light kind of machine.
But it don't do stink for what I need.

The next scrap's gonna be that 24MP, 12-bit little nugget they just announced yesterday. D3200.
I'm REALLY looking forward to how it will perform as it's likely foreshadowing (ooh, good pun) the abilities of a D7100 or D400.

BTW; I now have about 10 Nikon/Nikkor lenses. 

494

EOS Bodies / Re: What will be the response to the D3200?

« on: April 20, 2012, 10:55:33 PM »

And copiers and printers..... can't forget the copiers and printers..

Nikon has their branded eyeglass lenses.

495

EOS Bodies / Re: What will be the response to the D3200?

« on: April 20, 2012, 10:54:06 PM »

I've bought several from people who did this.  They tried their new camera a couple of times and noted the out of focus results (due to depth of field), and put their new DSLR back in the closet and kept on with the point and shoot that gave then sharp images.  Then after a year or two they sell it for a big loss.

Gad! I LOVE those people!
Best way to buy semi-pro gear is 2nd-hand from frustrated wannabes.