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Messages - dilbert

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1441
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 02:15:16 PM »
Consider this - brand loyalty combined with lenses/accessories already owned play a major role in future body purchase decisions for most consumers.  Canon has a much larger market share than Nikon, therefore a much larger pool of potential upgraders. As long as Canon continues to dominate in the true entry level segment (APS-C sensor xxxD models), they'll continue to outcompete Nikon across the board.

Even at the xxxD level Nikon is delivering a more attractive option.

Is a newbie going to go for the camera with the 24MP sensor or the 18MP sensor?

The other way to interpret your comments is that because Canon already has a large installed user base, they are delivering that user base lesser camera because people will keep buying Canon because of old gear.

1442
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:26:15 AM »
...
I love this camera and the specs. It is one more choice that I, as a consumer have. Canon's decision to offer this camera doesn't take away anything from me.  It adds to my choices. And, because it adds to Canon's bottom line, that means even more choices for me in the future.
...

It's not always a question of "affordability". For me at least it is "value for money."

And what Canon has delivered in the 5D3 does not offer me greater value for money that I would expect from the increase in price over the 5D2. If it offers value for money well good for them.

The equation is even worse when I consider what Nikon can deliver in the guise of the D800. If the 6D rumored specs are true then in comparison, you would also have a hard time justifying a 6D at $1999 being good value for your money when the 600D is $2099.

1443
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:12:33 AM »
Why is the number of AF points a better measuring stick than megapixels?
I typically only use 1 AF point, so if the camera has 65, 64 of them are useless to me.
And when one isn't good enough, I use live view.

Whereas I can use every megapixel with every photograph.

As it is with AF points, it is the quality of them that matters more than the number of them. If the 6D had 39 AF points that worked about as well as the 5D2's 11 then it wouldn't matter if it had 39 or 390 - only one of them would actually be of use. So it all depends on if the 6D will have 11 AF points then is the AF module simply a 5D2 "spare part" or a completely new module.

Oh, as for SD vs CF. It's a pointless comparison. It's a place to put digital photographs, nothing more. If the camera didn't have such a thing then that would be a problem.

It's called being functional --- Canon body experience --- XSI, 7d, 5d2, 5d3.  The difference in AF on the 7d and 5d2 is miles wideand the 5d3 AF is miles ahead of the 7d.  So yeah, MY expectation from a $2000 camera is that the AF would at least be on par with the 7d. 

SD vs CF.  It's interesting because the 5d has both for convenient comparison ---where I can shoot as much as I damn want writing to CF, when it switches to SD, 3-4 shots and you get the red writing data light.  I have found that the SD write speed is sooo slow that I don't even bother with putting an SD in there.  CF cards of any speed though are lightening fast.  Again, functionality ---this spec sheet has little to none of it.

That sounds like a firmware bug to me because the difference between the two formats should not be that large.

Quote
MP's, so i guess the 1dx is worthless to you at 18 MP, and the nikon d4 must be an utter piece of garbage at 16.2 MP?  Need I say more?

Yes, both are useless to me. Now a Phase One IQ180 back with 80MP.... mmmm

1444
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:05:24 AM »
Nikon and Sony have completely out foxed Canon.

Totally irrelevant. What matters is if they out sell Canon.  For the past several years, they have demonstrated a complete lack of ability to do so.  Keep in mind, superior technical specs aren't the whole story - if they were, Betamax would have beaten VHS.

Oh I think that the D800/D600 will quite easily outsell the 5D3/6D.

There are hoards of 5D2 users that won't go near either the 5D3 or the 6D not to forget that the D800 is being well reviewed everywhere (plus there is the "D800e".) The superior technical specs are backed by lower price at the top end and equivalent price at the bottom end.

For any given pile of money, Nikon has a more compelling story than Canon when it comes to DSLRs.

1445
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Specs Leaked?
« on: September 15, 2012, 10:41:27 AM »
While I'm not in the market for this camera after buying the 5d3, I think you guys are missing the point... everyone griped they wanted an entry level full frame, they got it...  To me, I think this is squarely put right there for those advanced rebel shooters and xxd users who have the option... Do you want to go full frame and get better IQ but NOT want to take out a second mortgage to get the 5d3 or 1dx, OR do you want a 7d (or 7d m2 whenever that comes to fruition).  It's for that person that wants better images without all the fancy bells in whistles... That guy who may want GPS so they can utilize it for social media and the like...  It's no 5d3 but it isn't trying to be either...  While it doesn't get me excited per se, perhaps it would have many moons ago when I was a xxd shooter...  It is what it is, an entry level full frame.  Nothing less, nothing more.

If this was to be an entry level full frame camera 3 or so years ago, it might go down well.

Today it looks like "too little, too late."

Nikon have beaten Canon to market with such a camera.

The combination of the D800/D600 will easily trounce the 5D3/6D combo in every way.

Canon's problem is that when they set out to design these cameras "n" years ago, they designed them for what the market was doing then, not what the market would expect, demand and require now.

1446
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 10:37:28 AM »
Nikon and Sony have completely out foxed Canon.

Canon's first big mistake was putting only 22MP in the 5D3 with a sensor that performs about the same as the 5D2.

Having learnt from the lesson of the 1Ds3/5D2, Canon did not want to introduce a "lesser camera" (6D) than the 5D3 with the same sensor because lots of would-be purchasers of the 5D3 would simply buy the 6D instead. So the 6D will have 20MP to stop it stealing sales from those who want more MP (22) from the 5D3.

Where Nikon has outfoxed Canon is that their camera at about the same price ($2099 is close enough to $1999) but with 20% more pixels. Nikon were able to deliver a 24MP FF camera at $2099 because their next model up camera has substantially more megapixels - 36.

Canon's product lineup below the 1DX is screwed. They really need to throw it out and start over.

And why does Canon need to do that?

Because the number of megapixels in their sensors is now too low. And if megapixels didn't matter then why wouldn't the 6D have the same, if not more, than the 5D3?

You must have gotten the MP kool-aid.  MP's aren't everything!  If the rumored specs said 24 MP, would that and that alone make this on par?  No.  Where the d800 differentiates itself from the mk3 isn't in mp's, but in IQ and DR at ISO 100-800, and above ISO 800 Canon takes the lead in both IQ and DR.

Back to why these specs suck.  It isn't MP's --- if it said 40 MP's it would still suck due to only having 11 AF points with 1 cross type at the center, and sd card only memory (unless this new sensor fixed the DR issues - but if it did, then the 6d would be closer to $2800).  Those are really the biggest issues. It's 2012, we shouldn't have to center point recompose on a brand new $2000 camera.  I could even deal with SD only if the AF was actually modern - it doesn't need to be the 61 point of the mk3, but dang it use the 21 point from 7d or the 45 point from the 1d4.  If it had at least that then it would be a worthy purchase and sit on my left side as backup to my mk3 (if the ISO performance is close to that of the mk3).  As it stands, the throwback to 2008 AF is useless, and SD only would prevent any kind of burst shooting due because SD wouldn't be able to handle writing at higher speeds.  So sorry, while I agree these specs are a big fail --- it isn't because of MP's...

Why is the number of AF points a better measuring stick than megapixels?
I typically only use 1 AF point, so if the camera has 65, 64 of them are useless to me.
And when one isn't good enough, I use live view.

Whereas I can use every megapixel with every photograph.

As it is with AF points, it is the quality of them that matters more than the number of them. If the 6D had 39 AF points that worked about as well as the 5D2's 11 then it wouldn't matter if it had 39 or 390 - only one of them would actually be of use. So it all depends on if the 6D will have 11 AF points then is the AF module simply a 5D2 "spare part" or a completely new module.

Oh, as for SD vs CF. It's a pointless comparison. It's a place to put digital photographs, nothing more. If the camera didn't have such a thing then that would be a problem.

1447
EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 6D should be $1500
« on: September 15, 2012, 09:55:14 AM »
Yup, at $1200-$1500, this camera would sell. And sell well.

But at the same price as the D600, who's going to buy it?

If you've got an APS-C Canon DSLR and "L" lenses then you're probably in a position to buy the 6D but would you?

When you look at it, $2000 for 24MP Nikon D600 or $2000 for 20MP Canon 6D.

Who's going to think that the Canon is a good purchase? Nobody... people will buy it because they feel like there is no other choice, not because they want to.
Furthermore, I don't understand who will buy this camera anyway.   Who is it really marketed at?   The consumer segment has no clue between APS-C and FF.  FF is not an upgrade over crop, they each have their purpose (you don't upgrade your car by buying a truck, cars haul people and trucks haul stuff).  Those that want to add a FF (like myself), will find the specs inadequate.  So who is this thing for?   All I see is Canon purely reacting to their competitor and not producing  a product for their customers.  Tell me where I'm wrong.

Where you're wrong is that the design and planning for this camera probably started 3 or 4 years ago.

Thus what you see in this design is Canon reacting to what Nkon/Sony were doing then, not now.

The features (including sensor) would have been locked down sometime last year.

1448
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Specs Leaked?
« on: September 15, 2012, 09:28:52 AM »
My question is:  if it is indeed 20MP, why the heck did they develop yet another FF sensor?

They're Canon. They did it because they can.

As long as they can increase the DR, 20MP is enough.

I agree with increasing the DR, but I'm skeptical as any other. Not saying it's impossible, because people did welcome the 5D series and knew what they were sacrificing performance wise, just so they could get the IQ. The 5D mark III is a beast with it's AF performance. A lower 5D with more DR is what we're all hoping for, judging from Canon's habits... Most likely not going to happen. As for the sensor, they do make their own sensor unlike Nikon who has to depend on Sony. Canon has repeatedly used the 7D sensor without releasing completely brand new sensors (aside from small tweaks) in the crop line, and perhaps in that time they developed a secret line of new sensors including what's rumored to be this 20mp one. Or... They just used that time to develop their new Cinema cameras, and we're still pretty much screwed for new bodies until they can recover. In the meantime while we all wait for that, I'm still enjoying shooting because of Canon's awesome lens lineup.

An increase in DR won't make any difference if it has fewer than 24MP.

It would need to have some kind of extraordinary DR, like 16 or 18 stops, maybe 20, for it to make up for the lack of megapixels in the eyes of the average DSLR shopper.

I thought with the 22MP 5D3 that Canon would do something special for video because of the 3:1 ratio for 1920x1080 but it has delivered nothing special, so we were all wrong about that.

All of this means that Canon's strategy for this evolution of sensors and cameras is wrong.

nothing stopped D700 to be a good seller compared to 5D2.  WTH I'm just looking for a DR of 15 for 20MP.  16 will be heaven.  If they can deliver it, for $1700, even with 9 AF points all cross-type, I'll buy it in an instant.

The sales of the D700 were nothing compared to the 5D2.
Yes, the D700 sold, but in nowhere near the numbers of the 5D2.
So as a matter of fact, the 5D2 did eat up a lot of potential D700 sales.

1449
I think we can see how Canon will respond - with a very forgetful camera.

1450
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Specs Leaked?
« on: September 15, 2012, 08:50:10 AM »
My question is:  if it is indeed 20MP, why the heck did they develop yet another FF sensor?

They're Canon. They did it because they can.

As long as they can increase the DR, 20MP is enough.

I agree with increasing the DR, but I'm skeptical as any other. Not saying it's impossible, because people did welcome the 5D series and knew what they were sacrificing performance wise, just so they could get the IQ. The 5D mark III is a beast with it's AF performance. A lower 5D with more DR is what we're all hoping for, judging from Canon's habits... Most likely not going to happen. As for the sensor, they do make their own sensor unlike Nikon who has to depend on Sony. Canon has repeatedly used the 7D sensor without releasing completely brand new sensors (aside from small tweaks) in the crop line, and perhaps in that time they developed a secret line of new sensors including what's rumored to be this 20mp one. Or... They just used that time to develop their new Cinema cameras, and we're still pretty much screwed for new bodies until they can recover. In the meantime while we all wait for that, I'm still enjoying shooting because of Canon's awesome lens lineup.

An increase in DR won't make any difference if it has fewer than 24MP.

It would need to have some kind of extraordinary DR, like 16 or 18 stops, maybe 20, for it to make up for the lack of megapixels in the eyes of the average DSLR shopper.

I thought with the 22MP 5D3 that Canon would do something special for video because of the 3:1 ratio for 1920x1080 but it has delivered nothing special, so we were all wrong about that.

All of this means that Canon's strategy for this evolution of sensors and cameras is wrong.

1451
EOS Bodies / Re: D600 vs. leaked 6D specs: a comparison
« on: September 15, 2012, 08:45:47 AM »
Thanks Dilbert.  That's a useful consolidation of the known specs.

Maybe you could add "shipping date" to it <grin>

I added "Availability"

1452
EOS Bodies / Re: D600 vs. leaked 6D specs: a comparison
« on: September 15, 2012, 08:12:16 AM »
FeatureNikon D600Canon 6D
Max ISO640025600
Megapixels2420
AF Points3911
Flashbuilt itnone
GPSadd onbuiltin
WiFiadd onbuiltin
FPS5.54.5
Price20991999
Availability5 days after announcementHopefully within 6 months of the announcement

1453
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Specs Leaked?
« on: September 15, 2012, 08:03:58 AM »
With the leaked specs, this is DOA at $1999.

1454
EOS Bodies / EOS 6D should be $1500
« on: September 15, 2012, 05:32:57 AM »
Yup, at $1200-$1500, this camera would sell. And sell well.

But at the same price as the D600, who's going to buy it?

If you've got an APS-C Canon DSLR and "L" lenses then you're probably in a position to buy the 6D but would you?

When you look at it, $2000 for 24MP Nikon D600 or $2000 for 20MP Canon 6D.

Who's going to think that the Canon is a good purchase? Nobody... people will buy it because they feel like there is no other choice, not because they want to.

1455
EOS Bodies / Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 05:19:52 AM »
Nikon and Sony have completely out foxed Canon.

Canon's first big mistake was putting only 22MP in the 5D3 with a sensor that performs about the same as the 5D2.

Having learnt from the lesson of the 1Ds3/5D2, Canon did not want to introduce a "lesser camera" (6D) than the 5D3 with the same sensor because lots of would-be purchasers of the 5D3 would simply buy the 6D instead. So the 6D will have 20MP to stop it stealing sales from those who want more MP (22) from the 5D3.

Where Nikon has outfoxed Canon is that their camera at about the same price ($2099 is close enough to $1999) but with 20% more pixels. Nikon were able to deliver a 24MP FF camera at $2099 because their next model up camera has substantially more megapixels - 36.

Canon's product lineup below the 1DX is screwed. They really need to throw it out and start over.

And why does Canon need to do that?

Because the number of megapixels in their sensors is now too low. And if megapixels didn't matter then why wouldn't the 6D have the same, if not more, than the 5D3?

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