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Messages - dilbert

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1501
EOS Bodies / Re: A New EOS M with EVF Second Half of 2014?
« on: December 09, 2013, 11:40:43 AM »
"Canon is considering a prosumer/professional mirrorless camera" = prototypes have been or are being developed for evaluation.

1502
EOS Bodies / Re: "Two New FF Bodies in 2014" - if 5DM4, would you jump in?
« on: December 08, 2013, 11:30:25 PM »
...
The argument Neuro is making is that sensor is not the sole, nor necessarily most important, thing that "counts" for photography. The argument Neuro (and myself) have often made is that other components matter more than the sensor for a majority of forms of photography. AF system, for example, often along with frame rate, are frequently the single most important things that count for IQ in a very broad range of types of photography...I mean, in anything that involves action, it doesn't matter if you have 12 stops or 14 stops of DR...if you can't nail focus, nail it perfectly, and nail it every time, then the most significant upgrade you could make would be to a camera with a better AF system.

That is most certainly NOT to say that more DR is meaningless. Of course not. DR is always useful in the circumstances where you can benefit from it. I personally can't wait for Canon to release a camera with improved low ISO read noise and more megapixels, because as far as I am concerned, when it comes to my landscape photography, sensor IS the single most important thing, and I always manually focus for it. But landscape photography accounts for a relatively small fraction of photography in general...sports and other forms of action photography, wedding photography, portrait/studio photography account for a much more significant portion of photography where nailing focus, as perfectly as possible as often as possible, is really the single most important thing. More DR is useful, more megapixels are useful, but focus...focus is truly essential.

IQ counts for a lot in wedding, portrait and studio work as well as landscape. It's only action where it is of secondary importance.

1503
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 08, 2013, 11:26:08 PM »
A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Sorry, dilbert not interesting nor even useful data.  As unfocused stated, it's meaningless.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

What continues to amaze me is that the 5DIII consistently holds a slot in the top 10 against cameras that cost a fraction of what it costs. In fact the body only comes in at #9 and the body with lens is at #18. (The 6D kit is at #10 and the 6D body #13) There are not any full-frame Nikon bodies in the top 20.

If you want another interesting 'top 100' list, look at what Amazon buyers think of the products they've purchased.  Check their Top 100 Rated dSLRs list.  The top 14 are all Canon, only 3 Nikon in the top 20 (and all three are D3100/kits).  Dilbert, care to count the number of coworkers and friends to whom you 'can't recommend Canon', and compare that to the number of positive recommendations that Canon buyers took the time to post, that result in Canon dominating that list?

The awesome low ISO IQ, high resolution, astounding DR, and higher-than-any-other-dSLR DxOMark Sensor Score of the Nikon D800E have earned it the impressive rank of #76 on that list (only 14 spots behind the poor DR, horrible banding in the shadows 5DII).  The D800 and D600/D610?  Nowhere to be found (although the D700 is on there...barely, at #98).

Ah, stupid me. You're confining the Amazon results to DSLRs whereas I'm referring to digital cameras.

It is not possible to compare the information available from Amazon with that from dpreview because Amazon does not offer a combined "digital camera top 10" - it separates out DSLRs vs everything else.

So the whole discussion about dpreview statistics vs Amazon is an apples and oranges problem.

"Digital cameras" is an extremely broad and diverse pool. Makes it difficult to determine what's occurring, and more specifically, WHY it is occurring. Global statistics have their use, but they don't make for good comparisons.

We don't have enough information to make anything more than informed guesses about what's occurring.

1504
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 09:19:40 PM »
A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Sorry, dilbert not interesting nor even useful data.  As unfocused stated, it's meaningless.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

What continues to amaze me is that the 5DIII consistently holds a slot in the top 10 against cameras that cost a fraction of what it costs. In fact the body only comes in at #9 and the body with lens is at #18. (The 6D kit is at #10 and the 6D body #13) There are not any full-frame Nikon bodies in the top 20.

If you want another interesting 'top 100' list, look at what Amazon buyers think of the products they've purchased.  Check their Top 100 Rated dSLRs list.  The top 14 are all Canon, only 3 Nikon in the top 20 (and all three are D3100/kits).  Dilbert, care to count the number of coworkers and friends to whom you 'can't recommend Canon', and compare that to the number of positive recommendations that Canon buyers took the time to post, that result in Canon dominating that list?

The awesome low ISO IQ, high resolution, astounding DR, and higher-than-any-other-dSLR DxOMark Sensor Score of the Nikon D800E have earned it the impressive rank of #76 on that list (only 14 spots behind the poor DR, horrible banding in the shadows 5DII).  The D800 and D600/D610?  Nowhere to be found (although the D700 is on there...barely, at #98).

Ah, stupid me. You're confining the Amazon results to DSLRs whereas I'm referring to digital cameras.

It is not possible to compare the information available from Amazon with that from dpreview because Amazon does not offer a combined "digital camera top 10" - it separates out DSLRs vs everything else.

So the whole discussion about dpreview statistics vs Amazon is an apples and oranges problem.

1505
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 06:45:51 PM »
I just checked a few minutes ago. Canon's 5DIII body and their 6D kit are in the top 10; the 6D body and the 5DIII kit are in the top 20. You have to drop down to #39 this morning to find a Nikon full frame on the list (the DF). It's absolutely front-page news that a camera body that lists for more than $3,000 can be outselling $500 cameras. And, it's equally newsworthy that they are significantly outselling a newly released, highly anticipated and much-hyped camera.

Not really. The Nikon Df is IMHO a mistake. A desperate mistake.

1506
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 06:43:28 PM »
Without wanting to be condescending, had you of been watching websites such as dpreview for longer then you'd know that Canon's "peak" was not short, rather it lasted some number of years, maybe even as many as 5 and that it spanned the entire gamut of Canon cameras.

So, dpreview suggests that more people are looking at other brands more often now, but the sales data show that more people are still buying Canon.   I guess that means they look at other brands, but don't like what they see…  Judging by the ratings on Amazon.com, it seems that people who choose Canon are much happier with their purchases, as well.

The sales figures on Amazon.com do not reflect what is said about markets such as Asia where MILC has eaten up 35% of DSLR sales but it does reinforce Canon USA's decision not to bring EOS-M2 to the USA because its DSLRs sell well enough.

1507
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 10:18:55 AM »
It was exactly a couple of years ago when Canon was paper releasing, or announcing the release of, the 5D III and 1D X. It is, therefor, not surprising that interest in Canon equipment began to peak around that time. Official releases came about a year later, which also coincides with peaking of interest in Canon equipment.

Canon seemed to peak sometime after the 5D Mark II's release and well before that of the 5D Mark III.

Maybe that camera has been such a hard act to follow up with or maybe trends are changing...

Quote
...
Brands of physical equipment exist in cyclical markets. They don't have the option of controversially eliminating discrete products and product releases in favor of perpetual improvement schemes for unreasonably priced, recurring, perpetual fees like Adobe and the rest of the software world. Every brand has it's ebb and flow, its peaks and luls, it's oscillations. Canon had their peak, and have entered a lul. They will have another peak in a year or two, and another, and another, ad inf.

Without wanting to be condescending, had you of been watching websites such as dpreview for longer then you'd know that Canon's "peak" was not short, rather it lasted some number of years, maybe even as many as 5 and that it spanned the entire gamut of Canon cameras.

1508
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 10:13:35 AM »
What you don't see on Amazon is the buying habits of people outside the USA.

As opposed to the dpreview 'data' you provided, which doesn't show anyone buying anything anywhere.

No, it shows what cameras people are interested in. People are no longer as interested in looking at or reading about Canon cameras as they used to be.

Interested in in a five day span of time. Canon hasn't released anything in the last five days...so why would they be in that DPR list? When Canon releases something, especially something big, people will show interest.

In the past, Canon was always well represented in the top 10 regardless of how recent the announcements were.

1509
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 12:59:29 AM »
No, it shows what cameras people are interested in. People are no longer as interested in looking at or reading about Canon cameras as they used to be.

At least for the past five days.   ::)

As I mentioned before, Canon used to dominate that top 10, usually 3 of the top 5 and 6 of the top 10.

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Based on data from Canon and Nikon themselves, people are buying more Canon dSLRs.  If 'interest' doesn't translate to sales, who cares (well, we all know you do, at least as long as Canon is ranked lower on some sort of list, somewhere on the Internet).

The thing is, we don't know what the sales data is for any website other than Amazon and not everyone buys from or through Amazon.

1510
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 12:35:12 AM »
What you don't see on Amazon is the buying habits of people outside the USA.

As opposed to the dpreview 'data' you provided, which doesn't show anyone buying anything anywhere.

No, it shows what cameras people are interested in. People are no longer as interested in looking at or reading about Canon cameras as they used to be.

1511
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 12:34:18 AM »
A couple of years ago, 8 out of 10 DSLRs sold in the USA carry the Canon logo... now, they are down to 6 out of 10.

Interesting.  Would you mind providing your source for those data?  Thanks!

A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Totally meaningless. Here is what "top camera" search results means according the dpreview: "Cameras receiving the most clicks in reviews and specs in the last five days."

Newly released cameras are always going to generate the most clicks on a review site. There is no relationship to the number of people reading a review to the sales of a camera.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

So doesn't that make you think, why are people using a digital camera review website (dpreview) to investigate cameras with a browsing pattern that doesn't match what people buy from Amazon?

The information available from dpreview is of use to people wherever they are in the world. Buying from Amazon is often only advantageous, if not available to those in the USA.

1512
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 06, 2013, 12:30:19 AM »
A couple of years ago, 8 out of 10 DSLRs sold in the USA carry the Canon logo... now, they are down to 6 out of 10.

Interesting.  Would you mind providing your source for those data?  Thanks!

A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

Totally meaningless. Here is what "top camera" search results means according the dpreview: "Cameras receiving the most clicks in reviews and specs in the last five days."

Newly released cameras are always going to generate the most clicks on a review site. There is no relationship to the number of people reading a review to the sales of a camera.

Use the Amazon best sellers list. As of tonight, Canon has 13 of the top 20 best sellers. Nikon has 7.

What continues to amaze me is that the 5DIII consistently holds a slot in the top 10 against cameras that cost a fraction of what it costs. In fact the body only comes in at #9 and the body with lens is at #18. (The 6D kit is at #10 and the 6D body #13) There are not any full-frame Nikon bodies in the top 20.

Amazon sells primarily to which country? The USA.

www.dpreview.com serves which audience? Global.

What's the difference?

Folks I know in the USA do buy online, from either B&H or Amazon.

Folks I know that don't live in the USA don't buy from Amazon, may buy from B&H but usually buy from a bricks and mortar store or a local e-tailer.

So, what you see on Amazon backs up why Canon aren't releasing the EOS M2 in the USA (DSLRs are still #1 in the USA.)

What you don't see on Amazon is the buying habits of people outside the USA.

1513
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 05, 2013, 09:59:18 PM »
A couple of years ago, 8 out of 10 DSLRs sold in the USA carry the Canon logo... now, they are down to 6 out of 10.

Interesting.  Would you mind providing your source for those data?  Thanks!

A different but similarly interesting data point is the "top camera" search results on www.dpreview.com on their front page.

It used to be that Canon cameras were 6 out of 10 for a long while. Now Canon is 3 out of 10 and none in the top 5.

1514
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 05, 2013, 09:55:04 PM »
... but I'd like to add that even if Canon would consider low iso important, they have no hope on reaching or overtaking Nikon/Sony in this area due to patents, so it's smart to stop trying and expand their own strengths - which unfortunately seems to be amateur video and high-end sports/tele.

... or very fortunately for people who happen to do amateur video and high-end sports/tele.  And very fortunately for people who photograph weddings.  I just read a comment on Facebook from a Nikon using pro asking whether the skin tones from the new Df were like those from the D4, because the skin tones from his D4 were giving him problems.  I've seen dozens of Canon DSLRs (and bags full of Canon lenses) used by wedding videographers in recent years, and never once a Nikon or Sony.

Some would argue that this is the JPEG conversion, others would argue that it is due to sensor differences.

For weddings that I've been to, it has been a 50-50 split of Nikon vs Canon.

However, I see more "amateur wedding photographers" with an APS-C Canon DSLR than I do with Nikon. If someone has Nikon kit, they've got proper pro equipment.

1515
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
« on: December 05, 2013, 07:34:22 PM »
But he, like myself, will no longer be recommending Canon cameras to "the masses" that ask us for advice on which digital camera to buy. Multiplier effect.

All two of you, huh?  I bet that has Canon executives quaking in there dress shoes.  I'm sure they're just terrified that the two of you, and however many people you talk to (and that actually believe you), are going to outweigh all of those Canon cameras "the masses" see being used every day by wedding photographers, sports photographers, their friends, etc.  Inflated sense of self importance, anyone?

I don't talk to the masses, rather I talk to co-workers or friends or family who know what sort of camera I've got and think "he's got a good camera, I'll ask him for a recommendation." It's a behavior that isn't specific to cameras. And I'm not speculating here, that conversation has happened.

I believe you.  But even if you're having that conversation with a few people or a few dozen, you're not conversing with hundreds or thousands of people, and it would take hundreds of thousands to make the sort of impact you're implying you are having. 

The point is, I bet for every person to whom you recommend against choosing Canon, there are several people recommending the opposite to their co-workers or friends or family.  For the most part, people tend to recommend what they use…and more people use Canon that the other brands.

Granted and if you're a manufacturer then you want to keep that going. That it is just myself or someone else here saying they no longer recommend what they have is what I'd liken more to a canary in the mine and that it is quite likely indicative of there being others as well.

Quote

Actually, I think you've missed the point that they are putting their latest sensor technology into cameras but that they've focused on R&D into sensors that have new features rather than new sensors with more megapixels or higher IQ.

No, I haven't missed the point.  But I think perhaps you've missed the point that Canon has focused their sensor R&D in areas that they think customers will impact customer buying decisions, and low ISO DR isn't one of those.

Lower noise and higher DR are what I look for in successive cameras and that improvements should be visible right through the range of ISO values, not just in one particular area. It just so happens that one of Canon's competitors has produced a camera that quite clearly trounces Canon at ISO below 800, giving us a better feel for what's possible with existing technology.

No, I haven't missed the point.  But I think perhaps you've missed the point that Canon has focused their sensor R&D in areas that they think customers will impact customer buying decisions, and low ISO DR isn't one of those.

I really don't want to intervene in the entertaining dilbert & neuro talk :-p, but I'd like to add that even if Canon would consider low iso important, they have no hope on reaching or overtaking Nikon/Sony in this area due to patents, so it's smart to stop trying and expand their own strengths - which unfortunately seems to be amateur video and high-end sports/tele.

"No hope?"  I wouldn't say that…  If nothing else, Sony has IP and runs in the red, Canon has deep pockets, and there's this thing called licensing…

Yes, if Canon would put the sensor from the Nikon D610 in a Canon body, now that would be nice!

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