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Messages - dilbert

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1561
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Official Specs
« on: September 16, 2012, 11:59:42 PM »
I think we should withhold judgement until we see IQ and noise control from this 20.2 megapixel sensor. Because in the end, isn't that what really matters?

yeah but it will be tough to beat the D600 if the D600 is exmor and if it does come close then what the heck were they thinking saving their best tech for the 6D and putting old tech in the king pin 5D3 and 1DX???

What if the 6D was always intended for Photokina (Sep 2012) and the 5D3 was intended for Sep 2011 but due to the earthquake last year, it was put back 6 months?

1562
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Official Specs
« on: September 16, 2012, 09:49:50 PM »
What is the point of this camera?

To show that Canon can deliver a cheap-n-nasty FF DSLR?

1563
EOS Bodies / Re: Adorama is selling 5d3 for $2745 on eBay now
« on: September 16, 2012, 05:26:37 AM »
I refuse to believe it. That camera is worth every penny of that $3499 price tag, and it must be flying off the shelves. No amount of evidence will convince me of the contrary.

Lol!

1564
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Specs Leaked?
« on: September 16, 2012, 05:24:46 AM »
I am not an American, but what does an American have to do with a camera with a damaged memory card?

Blaming the equipment and not the operator.

1565
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Specs Leaked?
« on: September 16, 2012, 04:55:35 AM »
Other than the 11 AF with 1 cross type I don't see anything that is a disappointment from a lower cost FF DSLR. What did you guys want. A MkIII at $1500?
All new FF DSLRs should have dual slots, preferably of the same type

That way you can save to 2 cards at the same time for added safety. The first wedding you shoot where the card gets damaged before dumping the shots - you'll agree with me.

Wouldn't having built-in wireless eliminate the need for a back-up card slot, though?

The problem isn't one of backups, the problem is that feature X is present on camera Y and thus user Z wants in on camera W too.

If your cards are getting damaged at a wedding shoot then surely you have to call into question the procedures being used before the equipment itself.

Oh wait, no, that would mean actually accepting responsibility for something bad happening and Americans seem allergic to anything where they need to take personal responsibility for their actions.

1566
EOS Bodies / Re: Adorama is selling 5d3 for $2745 on eBay now
« on: September 16, 2012, 02:20:10 AM »
Looks like Adorama is clearing warehouse space for incoming stock of newer equipment.

I think it is also fair to say that the 5D3 is selling A LOT SLOWER than Adorama predicted.

I suppose the only remaining question is if Adorama is making a profit on $2745 or not.

But even if they aren't, this deal will really put the brakes on further 5D3 sales because everyone else that doesn't need a 5D3 will simply wait for other stores to have a sale like this.

Clearing stock for new cameras?! So now a camera's life cycle is a few months?!
That's absurd. Canon kept the price "high" on purpose. Early adopters, to create a demand, to sell more 5D2's, the price of the Yen, the price of rice , because they can, whatever the reason.... It's marketing. I'm sure Adorama is still making money, Canon is making money, whatever.

Think of it like this...

Adorama bought 1000 5D Mark IIIs from Canon to sell.

Nearly all of that batch of 1000 are still in a warehouse not moving very fast.

The shipment of 5000 Nikon D600s has arrived and there is nowhere to put them.

Not an exact scenario but...

1567
EOS Bodies / Re: Adorama is selling 5d3 for $2745 on eBay now
« on: September 15, 2012, 09:06:05 PM »
Looks like Adorama is clearing warehouse space for incoming stock of newer equipment.

I think it is also fair to say that the 5D3 is selling A LOT SLOWER than Adorama predicted.

I suppose the only remaining question is if Adorama is making a profit on $2745 or not.

But even if they aren't, this deal will really put the brakes on further 5D3 sales because everyone else that doesn't need a 5D3 will simply wait for other stores to have a sale like this.

1568
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Specs Leaked?
« on: September 15, 2012, 04:04:57 PM »
Consider this - brand loyalty combined with lenses/accessories already owned play a major role in future body purchase decisions for most consumers.  Canon has a much larger market share than Nikon, therefore a much larger pool of potential upgraders. As long as Canon continues to dominate in the true entry level segment (APS-C sensor xxxD models), they'll continue to outcompete Nikon across the board.

Even at the xxxD level Nikon is delivering a more attractive option.

Is a newbie going to go for the camera with the 24MP sensor or the 18MP sensor?

The other way to interpret your comments is that because Canon already has a large installed user base, they are delivering that user base lesser camera because people will keep buying Canon because of old gear.

That's what happens when you achieve enough market penetration. Case in point: the iPhone 5. It delivers less from a technological standpoint than many of its competitors but will still sell loads more even if enthusiasts call it boring and uninspiring. The differentiation factor is the ecosystem.

If the iPhone 5 is just meant for upgraders then yes, you're right. otherwise, Apple is losing market share and they know it. Hence all the court cases.

1569
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 02:15:16 PM »
Consider this - brand loyalty combined with lenses/accessories already owned play a major role in future body purchase decisions for most consumers.  Canon has a much larger market share than Nikon, therefore a much larger pool of potential upgraders. As long as Canon continues to dominate in the true entry level segment (APS-C sensor xxxD models), they'll continue to outcompete Nikon across the board.

Even at the xxxD level Nikon is delivering a more attractive option.

Is a newbie going to go for the camera with the 24MP sensor or the 18MP sensor?

The other way to interpret your comments is that because Canon already has a large installed user base, they are delivering that user base lesser camera because people will keep buying Canon because of old gear.

1570
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:26:15 AM »
...
I love this camera and the specs. It is one more choice that I, as a consumer have. Canon's decision to offer this camera doesn't take away anything from me.  It adds to my choices. And, because it adds to Canon's bottom line, that means even more choices for me in the future.
...

It's not always a question of "affordability". For me at least it is "value for money."

And what Canon has delivered in the 5D3 does not offer me greater value for money that I would expect from the increase in price over the 5D2. If it offers value for money well good for them.

The equation is even worse when I consider what Nikon can deliver in the guise of the D800. If the 6D rumored specs are true then in comparison, you would also have a hard time justifying a 6D at $1999 being good value for your money when the 600D is $2099.

1571
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:12:33 AM »
Why is the number of AF points a better measuring stick than megapixels?
I typically only use 1 AF point, so if the camera has 65, 64 of them are useless to me.
And when one isn't good enough, I use live view.

Whereas I can use every megapixel with every photograph.

As it is with AF points, it is the quality of them that matters more than the number of them. If the 6D had 39 AF points that worked about as well as the 5D2's 11 then it wouldn't matter if it had 39 or 390 - only one of them would actually be of use. So it all depends on if the 6D will have 11 AF points then is the AF module simply a 5D2 "spare part" or a completely new module.

Oh, as for SD vs CF. It's a pointless comparison. It's a place to put digital photographs, nothing more. If the camera didn't have such a thing then that would be a problem.

It's called being functional --- Canon body experience --- XSI, 7d, 5d2, 5d3.  The difference in AF on the 7d and 5d2 is miles wideand the 5d3 AF is miles ahead of the 7d.  So yeah, MY expectation from a $2000 camera is that the AF would at least be on par with the 7d. 

SD vs CF.  It's interesting because the 5d has both for convenient comparison ---where I can shoot as much as I damn want writing to CF, when it switches to SD, 3-4 shots and you get the red writing data light.  I have found that the SD write speed is sooo slow that I don't even bother with putting an SD in there.  CF cards of any speed though are lightening fast.  Again, functionality ---this spec sheet has little to none of it.

That sounds like a firmware bug to me because the difference between the two formats should not be that large.

Quote
MP's, so i guess the 1dx is worthless to you at 18 MP, and the nikon d4 must be an utter piece of garbage at 16.2 MP?  Need I say more?

Yes, both are useless to me. Now a Phase One IQ180 back with 80MP.... mmmm

1572
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 11:05:24 AM »
Nikon and Sony have completely out foxed Canon.

Totally irrelevant. What matters is if they out sell Canon.  For the past several years, they have demonstrated a complete lack of ability to do so.  Keep in mind, superior technical specs aren't the whole story - if they were, Betamax would have beaten VHS.

Oh I think that the D800/D600 will quite easily outsell the 5D3/6D.

There are hoards of 5D2 users that won't go near either the 5D3 or the 6D not to forget that the D800 is being well reviewed everywhere (plus there is the "D800e".) The superior technical specs are backed by lower price at the top end and equivalent price at the bottom end.

For any given pile of money, Nikon has a more compelling story than Canon when it comes to DSLRs.

1573
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 6D Specs Leaked?
« on: September 15, 2012, 10:41:27 AM »
While I'm not in the market for this camera after buying the 5d3, I think you guys are missing the point... everyone griped they wanted an entry level full frame, they got it...  To me, I think this is squarely put right there for those advanced rebel shooters and xxd users who have the option... Do you want to go full frame and get better IQ but NOT want to take out a second mortgage to get the 5d3 or 1dx, OR do you want a 7d (or 7d m2 whenever that comes to fruition).  It's for that person that wants better images without all the fancy bells in whistles... That guy who may want GPS so they can utilize it for social media and the like...  It's no 5d3 but it isn't trying to be either...  While it doesn't get me excited per se, perhaps it would have many moons ago when I was a xxd shooter...  It is what it is, an entry level full frame.  Nothing less, nothing more.

If this was to be an entry level full frame camera 3 or so years ago, it might go down well.

Today it looks like "too little, too late."

Nikon have beaten Canon to market with such a camera.

The combination of the D800/D600 will easily trounce the 5D3/6D combo in every way.

Canon's problem is that when they set out to design these cameras "n" years ago, they designed them for what the market was doing then, not what the market would expect, demand and require now.

1574
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon is out foxed.
« on: September 15, 2012, 10:37:28 AM »
Nikon and Sony have completely out foxed Canon.

Canon's first big mistake was putting only 22MP in the 5D3 with a sensor that performs about the same as the 5D2.

Having learnt from the lesson of the 1Ds3/5D2, Canon did not want to introduce a "lesser camera" (6D) than the 5D3 with the same sensor because lots of would-be purchasers of the 5D3 would simply buy the 6D instead. So the 6D will have 20MP to stop it stealing sales from those who want more MP (22) from the 5D3.

Where Nikon has outfoxed Canon is that their camera at about the same price ($2099 is close enough to $1999) but with 20% more pixels. Nikon were able to deliver a 24MP FF camera at $2099 because their next model up camera has substantially more megapixels - 36.

Canon's product lineup below the 1DX is screwed. They really need to throw it out and start over.

And why does Canon need to do that?

Because the number of megapixels in their sensors is now too low. And if megapixels didn't matter then why wouldn't the 6D have the same, if not more, than the 5D3?

You must have gotten the MP kool-aid.  MP's aren't everything!  If the rumored specs said 24 MP, would that and that alone make this on par?  No.  Where the d800 differentiates itself from the mk3 isn't in mp's, but in IQ and DR at ISO 100-800, and above ISO 800 Canon takes the lead in both IQ and DR.

Back to why these specs suck.  It isn't MP's --- if it said 40 MP's it would still suck due to only having 11 AF points with 1 cross type at the center, and sd card only memory (unless this new sensor fixed the DR issues - but if it did, then the 6d would be closer to $2800).  Those are really the biggest issues. It's 2012, we shouldn't have to center point recompose on a brand new $2000 camera.  I could even deal with SD only if the AF was actually modern - it doesn't need to be the 61 point of the mk3, but dang it use the 21 point from 7d or the 45 point from the 1d4.  If it had at least that then it would be a worthy purchase and sit on my left side as backup to my mk3 (if the ISO performance is close to that of the mk3).  As it stands, the throwback to 2008 AF is useless, and SD only would prevent any kind of burst shooting due because SD wouldn't be able to handle writing at higher speeds.  So sorry, while I agree these specs are a big fail --- it isn't because of MP's...

Why is the number of AF points a better measuring stick than megapixels?
I typically only use 1 AF point, so if the camera has 65, 64 of them are useless to me.
And when one isn't good enough, I use live view.

Whereas I can use every megapixel with every photograph.

As it is with AF points, it is the quality of them that matters more than the number of them. If the 6D had 39 AF points that worked about as well as the 5D2's 11 then it wouldn't matter if it had 39 or 390 - only one of them would actually be of use. So it all depends on if the 6D will have 11 AF points then is the AF module simply a 5D2 "spare part" or a completely new module.

Oh, as for SD vs CF. It's a pointless comparison. It's a place to put digital photographs, nothing more. If the camera didn't have such a thing then that would be a problem.

1575
EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 6D should be $1500
« on: September 15, 2012, 09:55:14 AM »
Yup, at $1200-$1500, this camera would sell. And sell well.

But at the same price as the D600, who's going to buy it?

If you've got an APS-C Canon DSLR and "L" lenses then you're probably in a position to buy the 6D but would you?

When you look at it, $2000 for 24MP Nikon D600 or $2000 for 20MP Canon 6D.

Who's going to think that the Canon is a good purchase? Nobody... people will buy it because they feel like there is no other choice, not because they want to.
Furthermore, I don't understand who will buy this camera anyway.   Who is it really marketed at?   The consumer segment has no clue between APS-C and FF.  FF is not an upgrade over crop, they each have their purpose (you don't upgrade your car by buying a truck, cars haul people and trucks haul stuff).  Those that want to add a FF (like myself), will find the specs inadequate.  So who is this thing for?   All I see is Canon purely reacting to their competitor and not producing  a product for their customers.  Tell me where I'm wrong.

Where you're wrong is that the design and planning for this camera probably started 3 or 4 years ago.

Thus what you see in this design is Canon reacting to what Nkon/Sony were doing then, not now.

The features (including sensor) would have been locked down sometime last year.

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