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Messages - dilbert

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1741
EOS Bodies - For Video / C300 in professional use...
« on: April 14, 2012, 03:45:06 AM »
A couple of URLs with stories from pros...

http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2012/04/dueling-canon-c300-and-arri-alexa/

... this one is interesting because there are quite a few comments and discussion about how to dial down the detail of the C300 with how it renders skin. They don't want to capture and broadcast all of those pimples, etc.

http://www.hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/2012/03/the-canon-c300-on-an-el-pollo-loco-spot/

In this case, it is a story of the C300 being used to shoot a promo. In case you were thinking that the C300 was expensive, do an inventory of all of their other expenses - especially post. The C300 cost will be a once off that will be amortized over many different shoots whilst other costs (gennie rental, gas, post, etc) will be re-occurring.

1742
EOS Bodies / How to distinguish the Cinema 1D?
« on: April 13, 2012, 04:33:55 PM »
I like C1D because it matches up with the C300 and C500. 1DC makes it feel too like a variation of the 1D series cameras, although that it is. Tough call!

1743
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 5D Mark III Product Advisory
« on: April 13, 2012, 04:28:28 PM »
My 5DIII does this, too, but I can't see when I'd be in shooting situation where it would be an issue. Perhaps there are situations where it would matter, but if Canon offers some kind of fix, I'm not going to bother sending the camera in.

Where does it matter?

Say I've composed a shot in a dark setting by looking through the eye finder, with the camera tripod mounted.

I don't want to stay looking through the eye finger because it is an uncomfortable position to be in.

I've set the camera to Manual exposure mode.

So I stand up and to see what the exposure settings are, I light up the panel using the button and then adjust the aperture/shutter speed according to what the lit panel says it should be.

A few seconds later, I use the remote to release the shutter and take the picture.

Now when I review it, it is under exposed. What went wrong?

Alternatively, I might be shooting using P/A/V modes using the LCD panel light to let me know when I've dialed +2/3, then with the 10 second timer, wait for the shutter to release. The exposure is taken from the time that I locked it in with the panel lit up and is thus wrong.

1745
EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 1D C suggested price!!!
« on: April 13, 2012, 09:12:05 AM »
I'm pretty surprised by how many people want RAW 4k video on a shoestring budget.  Canon may be correct in pricing some people out of the market... I imagine a lot of cameras being returned once individuals realize that they can't possibly keep up with all that data.

I'd gladly sell my 5d3 and pay $8,000 for a 5d3 sized DSLR with true 1080p video detail similar to the C300.  I'm not ready to turn my house into a data center to shoot the micro-budget movies I can shoot.  I'm hoping Canon has something like this in line... you know, behind the other dozen cameras clogging the pipeline.

What I think is interesting is that the first camera was called the C300, not the C100 and that the second is being called the C500. Clearly there's space in the product labeling for a lesser camera that is a C100. Question is, when or if we will see it.

Quote
At least we know why the 1D X was delayed... they had to patch all the holes in the firmware that would allow Magic Lantern to hack it into becoming a half-price 1D C.   ;D

Heh, that assumes that the 1DX and 1DC have the same internal hardware for processing video data. I suppose we don't yet know if that's true but this quote on dpreview gives us a hint that maybe it isn't:

"Canon won't be pinned down on the precise details of hardware differences but also says the 1D X might be subject to greater import duty into North America and the EU if an aftermarket firmware change would allow the recording of more than 29 minutes, 59 seconds of video, so this isn't a 1D X with extended video and 4K enabled in firmware."

... so what that tells me is that if you manufactured two cameras that cost the same to build but one could capture video for 45 minutes and the other 20 minutes, then the shelf price you would see as a consumer would be different due to the import duties.

And although your comment about the 1DX vs 1DC was meant as a joke, maybe there's an ounce of reality there?

Another perspective on this may be that Canon are keeping the video in DSLRs crippled so that they don't end up being categorised differently and thus attracting higher government duties and thus costing more.

1746
EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 1D C suggested price!!!
« on: April 13, 2012, 08:55:36 AM »
I think Canon missed the point on this one. The DSLR video popularity was not because we all really wanted DSLRs as video cameras. They SUCK for video. No ND filters, no xlr inputs, line skipping because of 18MP sensors, awkward body styles, manual zooms, horrible focusing options, no peaking, no articulating screens, bad audio control and preamps, crappy recording formats for editing and grading, and all kinds of other stuff. The reason we all got excited is we were able to get impressive video quality from a $500 t2i and even better quality from a $2500 5D mark II with only a $400 prime lens. No one wants a pro video DSLR for $15,000 with all of the same issues like lack of ND filters, high res sensors, no xlr inputs and horrible focusing options. I'll deal with those shortcomings in a cheap camera but for Gods sake, if you are going to make a pro video camera, make a freaking pro video camera with pro video camera features. I can't believe Canon would do this as a company who makes great video cameras. 8 years ago I had both their XL1 and GL1 video cameras and they rocked for less than $3000. If you can't improve video in your current DSLR cameras without vastly increasing the price, then do what Sony, RED, and Panasonic are doing and put that awesome full frame sensor into a real video camera. I guess that is what they were attempting to do with the C300 but that camera is way over priced as well.

I think you mistake these new cinema EOS cameras as being for people that think $15,000 for a professional video camera is too much.

Since you've mentioned RED, why don't you do some research and find out how much it costs to build a RED camera that is "ready" to shoot 4K video in the same way that the 1DC is? Or Sony? For example, even though Sony's camera costs less than $10,000, you need a special Sony storage device for 4K video. Think that they'll throw that in for nothing? No, I don't think so...

1747


I still think that if it had of been announced at $8k, people would have been saying "Why isn't it $4k?".

If you're a professional and this is what you need then you work on your budget and find a way to make it fit and bring it into your tool set, not complain that it is a few $ more than you've saved.

It's not about how much money you have saved, it's about which other companies offer a better product for less.

I have an affair with Canon, but their pricing on some of their newer items are just too high.
When others are doing it equally as good, if not better, FOR LESS, then why do I want to stick around.


Obviously, there are TONS of people out there who feel the same way.

If you received a 20% pay raise tomorrow, would you still feel aggrieved about the prices?

1748
The back of the camera looks (I can only see the small pictures on the CR front page at the moment) like it's suited for video production.  So no, Neuro, it's not just the red "C" badge on front..

Indeed...as David stated, there are two different cameras in that image - front view of 1D C and back view of C500.  The back of the 1D C is just like the back of the 1D X.

Yes, the arrangement of the pictures is very misleading.

1749
I guarantee the 1D-C will be a flop. I work in video and TV, and people are pretty bummed about it, especially since it's $15K.

Canon video is going to lose their shirts, and Sony is going to capitalize big time.

Gene_has_been_singing_this_tune_for_months. 

I used to work in academic science. My lab mates and I would go to a scientific meeting, see the latest golliwog instrument, and say wow that's great, but no one will ever buy that, it costs way too much.  Now I work in pharma, and I have a multimillion dollar annual capital budget - what was insanely overpriced before is now quite affordable.  Point is, Canon seems to be targeting big-budget studios and filmmakers with their recent cinema releases (note: they call it the Cinema EOS line, not the 'video' line), and not indie filmmakers.  Canon's goal isn't to please everyone, it's to turn a profit.  If the quality is high, just as I have no problem spending $1MM on a piece of scientific instrumentation, major studios will have no problem spending $15K on a camera.  Heck, buy ten, they're cheap.  Probably not a flop, again, provided it delivers on quality.

I still think that if it had of been announced at $8k, people would have been saying "Why isn't it $4k?".

If you're a professional and this is what you need then you work on your budget and find a way to make it fit and bring it into your tool set, not complain that it is a few $ more than you've saved.

1750
EOS Bodies - For Video / Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« on: April 12, 2012, 12:51:47 PM »
In the case of the 1D C vs. the 1D X, it's evident that Canon expects to sell far fewer of the 1D C than the 1D X, and priced it accordingly.  Best recent example - the Nikon D800 vs. D800E, essentially the same camera (in fact, the D800E is missing something the D800 has!), so why is the -E variant $300 more?  Nikon expects to sell fewer of them...

For the D800/E, there's obviously two different manufacturing paths and/or sources of the sensors, thus, yes, you're right, the $300 difference is a reflection of fewer people wanting "no" anti-aliasing and thus economy of scale means that the one that sells less costs more.

1751
Quote
4K video is captured by an approximately APS-H-sized portion of the full image sensor, while Full HD video can be captured in the user’s choice of two different imaging formats:

15 thousand and it can't even record full frame? Duh!!

EOSHD is slamming it.

Read the press release carefully. For normal video (1080p), it appears to be full frame but not for 4K.

Lets explore that.

The story says that the camera uses a roughly APS-H sized area for 4K shooting. This means that the 4K capture is most likely using the central 4096 x 2160 grid of pixels on the sensor - in effect, it shoots in crop mode. My guess is that the output from doing this will be better (and less intensive on the camera's cpu) than trying to downscale the sensor's native resolution of 5184 x 3456.

4096x2160 is somewhere around a crop factor of 1.4, so I can see why they called it "close to APS-H".

Quote
Quote
The price too is going to be very upsetting to indie filmmakers used to the DSLR revolution, without any alternative DSLR from Canon that even does decent 1080p. I personally feel very bitter that a fledgling 5D Mark II DSLR video revolution was snuffed out with a sub-par video mode on the 5D Mark III in order to make way for a camera I can’t even afford to buy. We don’t want a 4K Hollywood camera we just want decent 1080p at a reasonable price on a full frame stills camera! Or even a C100 to compete with the Sony FS100 sub $6000.
 
There’s a very select niche who will be able to afford to buy and use this 4K beast of a DSLR.
 
For the rest of us there’s the Sony FS100, Nikon D800 and Panasonic GH2 but not really a compelling option from Canon any more.

I have to agree. The 5D3 is clearly crippled to help sel this thing. The video is so smudged...

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the 5D3 simply has the same hardware for video as the 5D2 and thus is similarly limited as to what it can output. Thus the 5D3 wasn't crippled, rather it just wasn't enhanced.

1752
EOS Bodies - For Video / Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« on: April 12, 2012, 12:10:04 PM »
“The Canon EOS-1D C digital SLR camera was designed in response to the needs of filmmakers, television producers, and other high-level motion-imaging professionals,” stated Yuichi Ishizuka, executive vice president and general manager, Imaging Technologies & Communications Group, Canon U.S.A. “Not only does it combine 4K and Full HD video capture with a convenient design, its use of dual CF cards also offers an efficient workflow compatible with today’s post-production requirements.”

If you're not in that group of people above then why are you complaining about the price?

Clearly Canon understands who its target audience is and clearly some people would like to think they're part of a group that quite clearly they're not.

I understand your logic, but in this case why a DSLR? This isn't what "high-level motion-imaging professionals" need.
Thisisnot a specialized video camera, super basic features like SDI or XLR are missing, i mean even the display is 3:2, not even 16:9 !!
This is just an unlocked 1DX

I'm willing to bet that you could take any two 1D_C cameras and swap cinema lenses around with much greater confidence of everything still being in focus than you could with a 1DX and L lenses.

Given that the cameras (1DC and 1DX) are so similar, you've got to ask "where does the price difference come from?" Is it just different firmware? Or is there also different hardware? What if the difference comes from much more stringent QA that means it requires more human involvement in the process, thus increasing manufacturing cost?

It is the same with lenses - look at the price of lenses from companies such as Zeis that do work by hand with those form Tamron/Sigma.

1753
EOS Bodies - For Video / Re: READ THE PRESS RELEASE...
« on: April 12, 2012, 12:01:49 PM »
“The Canon EOS-1D C digital SLR camera was designed in response to the needs of filmmakers, television producers, and other high-level motion-imaging professionals,” stated Yuichi Ishizuka, executive vice president and general manager, Imaging Technologies & Communications Group, Canon U.S.A. “Not only does it combine 4K and Full HD video capture with a convenient design, its use of dual CF cards also offers an efficient workflow compatible with today’s post-production requirements.”

If you're not in that group of people above then why are you complaining about the price?

Clearly Canon understands who its target audience is and clearly some people would like to think they're part of a group that quite clearly they're not.

I understand your logic, but in this case why a DSLR? This isn't what "high-level motion-imaging professionals" need.

Given that the brief for this camera states that Canon have been consulting with the industry, I'm inclined to believe that they've delivered what the industry accepts/needs/wants over speculation from others...

1754
I hope THE cinema EOS team is working on...
1.  Canon 10 or 12 bit raw video format.
2.  Perhaps a more affordable version of the C300 <---(Which I love)
3.  and maybe 60p at 1080p with a workable video format that isn't h.264

I think the c300 is awesome I got to use it this week for the first time.  I can't wait to see what they come
out with next.

What is any non professional going to do with 4k?

Read the brief on the C500 - 10bit (4:2:2) 4K or 12bit (4:4:4) 2K - both at 60fps etc.

1755
EOS Bodies - For Video / Re: Professional video products
« on: April 12, 2012, 11:50:54 AM »
If you go to Canon's USA website, you will not find the 1D_C, C300 or C500 in the consumer digital camera products where the 1DX. 5D3, etc are all found.

You will find the 1D_C, C300 and C500 under the professional video products part of their website.

It would seem that if you can only afford $8k for a video camera and anything more than that would break your budget/bank then you are not part of Canon's target market for these cameras. If I was a professional videographer, and the 1D_C was perfect for me then I'd be working out the numbers to make it work - I wouldn't be bitching about not having enough cash.

Will Canon bring out a professional product under $10k? Maybe a C100? Who knows and only time will tell.

Actually the 1DX, 5D3, all the way down to the 60D and powershots are all under "professional imaging products" as well, so that doesn't really matter.

Except that the 1D_C, C300 and C500 are not listed as consumer products.

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