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Messages - privatebydesign

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376
EOS Bodies / Re: Just for Jrista: 2014 Market Data
« on: September 25, 2014, 10:52:25 AM »
Er, I'm going to have to beg to differ. Here's the D810 at ISO 6400 and at ISO 100 pushed 6 EV:


Can you tell which is which?

Well other than them both being unusably bad, I'd say the 100 iso plus lift was the left, because it is noticeably badder than the one on the right.

So it seems we are really talking about the differences between realistic 3 stop lifts and unusable 6 stop lifts from any sensor.

377
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Posting about sensors and DR!
« on: September 25, 2014, 10:50:01 AM »
Lack of irony seems often to be accompanied by a lack of humor.

Seeing the pictures of the museum made me laugh out loud. When being asked for the reason of my laughing by somebody not familiar with photography, I didn't even know how to start to explain this whole story and why this was a hilarious post. "Well it's about ...em... so when you photograph, you ...em... so some people think that ... uuuuh..... I saw a cat falling down a table."

I think that one of the things we should do when posting is to put a "WARNING! Sarcasm" or a "Warning! Humour" tag on some of our posts. While it is obvious to the poster, many of the readers will not get it.
I'd even add a "message icon" indicating a "fun" or "sarcasm" thread. It happened to me I intended to start a fun thread a while ago and I did, but I put a question mark icon on it. I assumed it was clear enough by the content, but it wasn't. Well, maybe I should have posted this under "Site information" as a suggestion instead of here...

p.s. Surapon's back!!! :)


Woohoo, that is the best comment ever in a DR thread, sorry I know it is not a DR thread it is a thread about DR threads, who cares? Surapon is back :-)

378
Photography Technique / Re: Postprocessing brush instead of cto/ctb gel?
« on: September 25, 2014, 10:47:37 AM »
Bottom line:  Does your process give you the images you like?  If so, stick with it.  If not, change it.

Really only you can decide whether the final image is to your liking.

Unless it is commercial work and then the only opinion worth anything is the clients. When time/money become a factor then "the best" or most correct way of doing something doesn't necessarily make the most financial sense.

379
Photography Technique / Re: Postprocessing brush instead of cto/ctb gel?
« on: September 25, 2014, 10:32:04 AM »
Perfect photographer would tell you that you should have everything right in camera.
I am not a big believer of that theory. Any photo I intend to keep must go through post processing, even just for the sake of sharpening.
And yet, I gel. I find it easier to fix gelled strobe.
I don't use lightroom, I use ACR and the new filter in PS CC makes it even easier but I still gel. Can't explain the theory behind it, just take my answer as a statistic in nature.

What new filter in PS CC?

380
EOS Bodies / Re: Just for Jrista: 2014 Market Data
« on: September 24, 2014, 06:29:46 PM »
"I'm sorry; not seeing any color noise, posterization, and banding. Not really seeing much of a noise cost at all to shooting ISO 100."

I think we should all be able to agree that there is also no color noise, posterization, or banding in my "real world" 100% crop as well, though that does only have an approximately three+ stop lift.

381
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Posting about sensors and DR!
« on: September 24, 2014, 10:53:49 AM »
Neuro would you please care and lift some of the shadows in that picture of yours?
Not possible. It's no Exmor. Just Canon.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=22883.msg444292#msg444292

382
Lenses / Re: DXOMark Reviews Zeiss Otus 85mm f/1.4
« on: September 24, 2014, 09:41:57 AM »
I was trying to manually focus with my 85L mkii the other day... it did not go well.  Sure it was f1.2 and I was shooting at a backlit object with heavy contrast... but no... not even freaking close. 

This was through the viewfinder and not live view... but it was a mess.  So much so that the camera adjusted the exposure. Time by three fold.

And I while I was doing it I was thinking.. this is a lot of twisting for a little bit of movement... so I'm not sure how it would compare to the Otis... but my confidence is shaken that I could use a full manual focus lens.

AF lenses are simply not designed to MF, trying to do it with a fast prime and standard focusing screen is an exercise in futility. But the 85 f1.2 predates AF, try the focus throw on an FD version and you will see how we managed it back in the day.

383
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Posting about sensors and DR!
« on: September 24, 2014, 08:53:16 AM »
I did a little comparison set over here: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=22883.msg444292#msg444292

Probably not the best thread to put it in but I didn't want to start yet another one.........

384
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Posting about sensors and DR!
« on: September 24, 2014, 08:51:22 AM »
DR is overrated.

Until you need it. Then it tends to be the only thing that matters. :P

+1000

And when, pray tell, would it matter more than focus?

What camera CAN'T focus these days? I mean, EVERY camera has autofocus, and the vast majority of them do autofocus more than adequately. If you need high performance AF, then there are more than plenty of options for that as well, from multiple brands.

When it comes to the things I personally need DR for? Well, I'll be manually focusing. Every lens that I know of, or would ever care to use for landscapes or anything else where I find more DR useful, has the ability to be manually focused. Again, that's true across many brands.

So...yeah, OF COURSE focus is important.  ::) But, why does that matter? Focus is a core fundamental, it's been around since the dawn of photography. We don't lack for it, were not wanting for ultra high performance AF, Canon's AF kicks ass. Why is it that we need more and better focus when we can already track with near-pinpoint accuracy the eyeball of an erratically flying bird?

Why? When the one thing Canon cameras DON'T have...is more DR (more than they have had for five, six years, longer?)

So yes. When you really need DR, it is the single most important thing. Even when you don't think you need it, it can still be useful, it still means better quality images, and often less work involved in making quality images. Because we already have everything else.

ou've now seen the power that lower read noise offers with the examples you yourself created. Real-world photos you created by optimally using both cameras, and processing each file the same. You yourself realized that there wouldn't be any significant gains in shadow detail if you had reduced the noise of the Canon image...not enough, anyway, to match the Exmor image. The shadow data wasn't just useless low-color noise that mimics detail...it was real detail, with good color, clean & smooth light falloff.

That was a simple real-world example, something rather average, where to get a realistic result, you needed some shadow pushing. Not a lot, some. More DR can always be used, even when you might not think it can. I am not going to say everyone must have it or must need it because I do...but it's the only thing Canon cameras don't have, which can often leave you in a bind (or even an average situation) when it comes to recovering shadows. If you didn't think to bracket, your sometimes just SOL. Even when you do bracket, HDR has it's limitations. When you have GNDs, those only go so far, or have their own issues.

Anyway...I don't know how long the photos you took will matter as far as DR discussions go...I guess probably not long, and it will be right back to beating up the "DRones".  But, I'm glad you got the chance to see the benefit of more DR for yourself with your own images.  ;) Your example wasn't extreme, and you still benefited from more DR. You may have used an older Canon DSLR...but things, at least in the shadows, haven't changed much since that camera was released. There are marginal improvements to things like noise characteristic and level and hue of color noise, but overall, not much has changed.

My point wasn't that most cameras don't have good AF, although many of the best lenses don't, it was that I can't imagine an image where DR could ever be "the only thing that matters", little things like the subject tend to be more important, always, every single time. It is easy to get wrapped up in a train of thought and let it take you to illogical conclusions, DR being the only thing that matters is a perfect example, as a thought it is not valid, as an idea it is not valid, even as a glib throwaway line it is not valid.


385
Lighting / Re: Mitros+ Owners: are you satisfied?
« on: September 24, 2014, 03:38:11 AM »
That is insanity, your Choice 1 costs $920 plus the three flashes you have valued at $750 for a total of $1670. Four 600EX RT cost $1600 refurb, or $1800 new, throw in a YN E3 RT for $100 or save a little and get a ST E3 RT for $200 and you have 100% reliability, you are future proofed and your depreciation is practically zero.

I am all for cheap when it is cheap, and you cant beat the Chinese dumb radio triggers and manual flashes for cheap, but a couple of hundred dollars difference at these prices makes no sense to me.

386
EOS Bodies / Re: Just for Jrista: 2014 Market Data
« on: September 24, 2014, 03:17:08 AM »
As I've always said, if you want to lift data by this amount the Exmor is substantially better. ( Though if you were comparing your 1DsIII the latest Canons are better).

However I never do so for myself it's not an issue.

Exactly.  It's not as if all photographers need to do this data lifting thing.

But this was a commercial job from which the images have already been sold and used. I did need to lift like that because that is the look the client wants, I couldn't do it at a different time of day because I needed no people, I could have blended but that is time and money. There is always a counterpoint, but there is no denying there is a big difference in the files.

387
EOS Bodies / Re: Just for Jrista: 2014 Market Data
« on: September 24, 2014, 03:07:26 AM »

That's not an entirely fair comparison.  The entire Canon shot starts out darker before processing, and ends up brighter after processing.  So you're obviously giving the Canon shot more of an exposure boost in processing. 

With such a heavy shadow boost, I seems you are trying to create an "HDR look" without actually using HDR (combining different exposures).  That's valuable if you really want or need to substitute one technique for another, i.e. boosting shadows instead of combining exposures.

The Nikon/Sony sensor certainly has an advantage if you really need to do this:  shoot a high contrast static scene with maximum shadow detail but without using any of the techniques that photographers have used for such scenes in the past, such as blending bracketed exposures, adding light, choosing a time of day with less contrast, etc.  That sensor advantage matters to some photographers, but not to others.  I understand it's important enough to some to make a switch.  At the same time, it's not evidence of a flaw in Canon's sensors, which perform quite well for photographers who don't need to do what you've shown.

There is around 1/3 stop difference in exposure, this was from a series of bracketed shots and is the longest exposure that didn't blow the highlights. Yes I might have got a fractionally different result with a different image, but in fairness there is considerably more than 1/3 stop difference in the processed crop!

388
EOS Bodies / Re: Just for Jrista: 2014 Market Data
« on: September 24, 2014, 02:12:41 AM »
EDIT: I "mislabeled" the "Nikon" file, it is a single shot from a 2007 1Ds MkIII processed very simply in LR.

To reiterate, both images are from a single Canon file, the "good" one used a basic ETTR technique and very simple LR processing, the "bad" file was slightly underexposed and done as part of a bracketing sequence and also had simple LR processing.


Ok, interesting situation here. I recently had a friend stay and he had a D800 and 24-70, he tagged along on a commercial shoot of mine and I had a chance to shoot comparative images, I'll post the RAW files in a few days when I get back to internet that runs more than a few kb!

Anyway, as some of you know I have been a fairly strong advocate of the "well more DR would be nice but I really can get along fine with what I have at the moment" school of thought. I have never denied the Exmor advantage, I just felt it was portrayed as way more important than I felt it was, I also pointed out that I, personally, shoot very high DR scenes regularly and even the mighty Exmor wouldn't help in those situations.

So, time to eat crow. Here are two images (that unfortunately bare a strikingly similar scenario to long departed dear Mikael's comparison images) that I ETTR'd to get optimal exposure, that is I didn't blow the highlights completely on either image:
First two are unprocessed full image.
Second two processed full image.
Third two 100% crop of unprocessed image.
Fourth two 100% crop of processed full image (with no NR applied).

Now we can argue the rights and wrongs of exposure, the amount of light (or lift) I want under the shades, that I could have bracketed, that "they don't look properly exposed to me" (I heavily bracketed and chose the best exposure for highlights) etc etc, but there can be no denying there is a stunning amount of detail under the shade, and that is real detail in the stucco, not some made up noise giving the impression of detail. Now of course I could apply a big gob of NR, but there isn't going to be any detail there however powerful the program.

What can I say...........

389
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Posting about sensors and DR!
« on: September 24, 2014, 01:41:23 AM »
DR is overrated.

Until you need it. Then it tends to be the only thing that matters. :P

+1000

And when, pray tell, would it matter more than focus?

390
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Posting about sensors and DR!
« on: September 24, 2014, 01:13:17 AM »
DR is overrated.

Until you need it. Then it tends to be the only thing that matters. :P

And when, pray tell, would it matter more than focus?

Oh good GOD. Seriously? Are you guys going to hound me over everything I say now, with bullshit comments like THAT?  :o ::) What a joke...

Oh I'm sorry, I thought it was comfortably above the trolling level of "Until you need it. Then it tends to be the only thing that matters." My mistake...........

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