Messages

331

EOS Bodies / Re: 4 More DSLRs Coming in 2012? [CR2]

« on: June 12, 2012, 11:46:48 PM »

This points even more to the 7DII being APS-H.

stop teasing me!

no kidding.  On the topic of a sports/wildlife body, the silence of this "four cameras in 2012" CR2 rumor is defening.  It could mean one of two things:

1.  7D2 is coming in 1.6x form, but not until 2013
2.  7D exits stage left, and a  1.3x sports body 1D4 successor  enters, with some other single digit name on the front.   

332

EOS Bodies / Re: 4 More DSLRs Coming in 2012? [CR2]

« on: June 12, 2012, 09:50:11 PM »

There will be no point having an entry level FF unless Nikon comes out with one, otherwise they'll cannibalise 5D3 sales.

1100D
70D
3D - high MP FF

Sorry 7D users - your time is up.

and Canon walks away from the 1D4 market?

333

EOS Bodies / Re: 4 More DSLRs Coming in 2012? [CR2]

« on: June 12, 2012, 06:44:51 PM »

noteably absent from the CR2 speculation in the OP was any meaningful stab at how Canon will rationalize the 7D and 1D successors.  If the prosumer APS-C body is the 70D, and there is no direct replacement for the 7D, this implies hope for an APS-H body

334

EOS Bodies / Re: Will there be a 7d2 at all?

« on: June 12, 2012, 06:36:57 PM »

Anyway, back on topic, I see a 7dII coming out next spring, and the sensor will reflect whatever the 70D gets (18mp, 22mp, etc). The AF will be an APS-C version of the 61pt AF (so probably 40ish), and the FPS will reflect what Dual Digic V can do (8-10fps). So, its a mix of incremental changes (passing down elements Canon already has), but I think many 7D users would be happy with the upgrades as a whole. Probably priced a little higher than the 7D is now, but still <$2k.

I think Canon remembers that their enthusiast market isn't as deep-pocketed as their pro's. And they also have less investment in their system, so making them mad loses them a customer base

certainly plausable.  also consider that Canon might pull the same thing for 7D2 as they did for 7D1 -- a brand new sensor at the technology frontier for APS-C.   

The thing about the enthusiast's pockets is how will Canon address the wildlifers and BIFers out there, i.e. 1D4 market.  If there is no APS-H body, then these folks will be forced into the 1DX (a stated strategy) but those who like the reach will also turn to the premium APS-C body, in which case 7D2 might get pushed into being a little more "1D" like, spreading the distance even furher between the three 1.6x bodies. 

335

EOS Bodies / Re: APS-C Roadmap for 2012: A Prediction

« on: June 12, 2012, 11:07:19 AM »

well, I would not find it extraordinary either,  if Canon accomplished the hybrid AF with the addition of masks and filters on top of the existing sensor.  That is plausable, as long as it explains the different MP count between the two sensors (the "new" one is a couple hundred thousand pixels fewer)

 What would  be extraordinary is to find that the new sensor  is actually a new sensor without IQ/ISO improvements. 

336

EOS Bodies / Re: APS-C Roadmap for 2012: A Prediction

« on: June 11, 2012, 02:38:55 PM »

you're so right I should have studied that more carefully.  Even in the case of the 15MP sensor, one could argue a virtual "tie" (the 50D/500D intros were very very close), but still the history just doesn't show Rebels leading the way.  So the present intro is without historical precident!

Well, here's the thing.  Technically, the T4i/650D sensor is "new" in the sense that it has on-sensor phase-detect AF pixels.  Fine.  But it's still an 18 MP sensor.  While gear-heads and technophiles abound here on CR, the general public will see a Rebel/xxxD with an 18 MP sensor just as the past two generations have had 18 MP sensors, and conclude it's the same sensor (which, from an image capture standpoint it may very well actually be).  So calling it a debut is practically incorrect - from a consumer perspective, it's the same sensor.  The question then becomes, will Canon debut what is popularly perceived as a 'new' sensor (i.e., more MP than the current one, or some other major and tangible improvement) in the 70D, or the 7DII?  Since the 7DII will sit above the 70D in the lineup, it probably makes the most sense to debut the new sensor in the 7DII...the 70D gets the same sensor as the T4i/650D (i.e. AF during video is touted) and the 7D's AF system and various other small improvements.  Maybe.

I too find it extraordinary that this new sensor apparently makes no contribution to image capture IQ -- it appears to be more about hybrid AF. We have postulated all along that in order for it to appear "new" Canon would need to either bump the MP count or engage in a marketing thrust to re-educate the public as to why the new one is better.  So far, the low noise marketing is aimed Digic 5 in-camera jpg processing which may very well be the (stills) target audience for this camera.  So they are touting low noise in ways that most entry level photographers wont really know how to take advantage of, but will be thrilled to know it is there. 

I suspect and hope that the 7D2 public is diffrerent, and that Canon realizes this 18MP sensor in a 7D2 would be boring.  x-vision has rightly pointed out that the highest performing 1.6x sensors tend propogate out to the rest of the 1.6x line, unless of course a lower-entry level body lags behind.  But here is where the historical precident fails us:   xxxD's rarely "lead" but 7D "always" leads!  at least we know that Canons sensor fab shop is not closed...

337

EOS Bodies / Re: APS-C Roadmap for 2012: A Prediction

« on: June 11, 2012, 01:54:20 PM »

true, but Canon didn't lead off with that sensor in the 1100D -- the 12MP sensor first appeared in the 450 and then migrated it to the 1100D as the lowest entry point, as the 15 and 18MP sensors emerged.   7D excepted, Canon historically has historically "led" with sensors in the xxxD rebel and propgated them to the xxD and xxxxD later.  But that was before 7D...

<puts on historian hat>

The 1100D sensor has a greater number of total pixels, although the number of effective pixels is the same as the 450D.  That suggests a new sensor, although it's not certain.

• The penultimate 18 MP sensor (before the T4i/650D) debuted in the 7D, then was re-used in the T2i/550D, then the 60D, then the T3i/600D.
• The previous 15 MP APS-C sensor debuted in the 50D, then was re-used in the T1i/500D. 
  
• The previous 12 MP APS-C sensor did debut in the XSi/450D, but wasn't re-used anywhere (except, possibly in the T3/1100D).
  
• The previous 10 MP APS-C sensor debuted in the XTi/400D, and was re-used in the 40D then the XS/1000D
• The previous 8 MP APS-C sensor debuted in the 20D, then was re-used in the XT/350D and 30D
• The previous 6 MP APS-C sensor debuted in the 10D, then was re-used in the Digital Rebel/300D.

So...there's only one example of Canon having "led" with sensors in the xxxD rebel and propgating them to the xxD - the 10 MP sensor, but three examples of a sensor debut in the xxD line (prior to the 7D release).

<removes historian hat>

you're so right I should have studied that more carefully.  Even in the case of the 15MP sensor, one could argue a virtual "tie" (the 50D/500D intros were very very close), but still the history just doesn't show Rebels leading the way.  So the present intro is without historical precident! 

338

EOS Bodies / Re: APS-C Roadmap for 2012: A Prediction

« on: June 11, 2012, 12:13:15 PM »

y'all are seeing a new APS-C sensor, in the next 12 months, coming on the heals of the newly introduced 18MP hybrid AF sensor?  historical precident suggests that the present t4i sensor will make its way through the rest of the 1.6x ranks.

I expect a higher MP sensor for the 7DII, incorporating the hybrid PDAF functionality.  Note there is a different sensor in the T3/1100D, so Canon is perfectly willing to have multiple APS-C sensors across the lines.

true, but Canon didn't lead off with that sensor in the 1100D -- the 12MP sensor first appeared in the 450 and then migrated it to the 1100D as the lowest entry point, as the 15 and 18MP sensors emerged.   7D excepted, Canon historically has historically "led" with sensors in the xxxD rebel and propgated them to the xxD and xxxxD later.  But that was before 7D...

There is no historical precident for the 7D, unless one considers that it receives the latest and best APS-C sensor,  so you may be right and I hope you are in which case 70D would receive the 18MP first, then 7D would follow at 22.   I do hope 7D2 sensor is something special.   I only worry that if all they do is a MP bump from hybrid AF 18  to hybrid AF 22 (like they did from 15 to 18) then we will really have no ISO improvement at all. 

maybe there is still hope for an APS-H body, with some new positive integer on the front,  at 22MP...

339

EOS Bodies / Re: APS-C Roadmap for 2012: A Prediction

« on: June 11, 2012, 10:28:06 AM »

y'all are seeing a new APS-C sensor, in the next 12 months, coming on the heals of the newly introduced 18MP hybrid AF sensor?  historical precident suggests that the present t4i sensor will make its way through the rest of the 1.6x ranks.

340

EOS Bodies / Re: Will there be a 7d2 at all?

« on: June 11, 2012, 10:25:26 AM »

I don't see 22MP APS-C -- we already have this cycle's APS-C sensor and it is 18MP.  If we accept that sensor development life cycles are longer now then they were a few years back, don't you all think it would be unusual for Canon NOT to use the same 18MP sensor on the xxD and 7D2 as they just introduced in the Rebel?    That would at least be historically consistant with the way sensors are introduced and propogate through the APS-C bodies, assuming Canon still sees three  segments of the APS-C market.   

Clearly, at least from a  marketing perspective, Canon doesn't see the T4i sensor itself making any headlines in the ISO department -- all they are talking about is in-camera JPG processing, which tells me they are not attempting to compete head on in the sensor noise department.  interesting to note that this time around they did NOT increment the MP count -- suggesting that this technology cycle isnt' about noise at all it is about hybrid AF and video features. 

So, while hope I'm wrong, the 7D2 is looking kinda boring right now in the IQ/ISO department.  To combine a perfected hybrid AF with ISO improvements would require yet another sensor, which to me would be unlilely in a APS-C form factor anytime soon  -- but maybe we see this in an APS-H sensor and some new single digit body.

341

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Full Specifications

« on: June 10, 2012, 04:54:51 PM »

Back to the camera...  its looking to me like the new 18MP sensor itself is not making any real contributions to IQ/DR/ISO.  the marketing thrust of this camera is about the AF and in-camera jpg processing, such as the four-image noise reduction capability.  I'm just not seeing anyone suggest that ISO and noise were addressed in this sensor technology cycle.

342

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]

« on: June 08, 2012, 12:50:18 PM »

But -- I'm just not  yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new.  Absent are statements such as "new,  low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped  Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor.  To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance.  I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance.  I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.   

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?

I sincerely hope you're wrong
As far as I've read, yes, sensors are different. The old one counts 18.7 total MP, while the new one 18.5. I take it for a hint that they're produced differently, although I cannot tell if differently means better too. Maybe Canon is reserving the flashiest marketing strikes for higher-end cameras.
But we're going to discover it quite soon anyway.

ok this is good -- the first real evidence that the sensor itself is a different animal, i.e. that we have an 18.5MP beast instead of 18.7.  I sincerely hope I'm wrong too -- this would be very good if the 18.5MP sensor actually represented the next generation in ISO/IQ from the sensor itself.  I would even  do the hokey pokey;  just not here

I get a little bit frustrated, I see some people say they shoot 1600 on a 7D all day long, and others complain... same with just about every other camera I see... I've been considereing 5D2, 7D and 70D for a while and I see all sorts of different things.

I see a picture from a 7D at ISO 1000 or so and say to myself that looks nice, and then see 5D2 owners saying how horrible the 7D was at anything above 200.    I myself have a 450D so I have no clue what to think at times.

People who say that the 7D has a bad IQ and can't produce sharp pictures should seriously consider another hobby. Probably photography is not their thing.

That said, it depends a lot on what you do in post-processing. If you start pulling out details from the shadows, sharpening, tweaking things around... then yes, the old generation of crop sensors shows its limits. I never get fully tweakable images above ISO 400. After that it's all a matter of compromise. Images @ISO 800 are ok if they're good to begin with, otherwise not so cool. They can still look fine, even @ ISO 1600 and 3200, but only if you down-size them a lot. If you want to get sharp large prints at such ISO settings you need a FF. Or a better crop sensor. Now, raise that limit from ISO 400 to 1600 and I don't know what to do with a FF
[/quote]

yea thats not a lot different from my 40D, although there is still a clear advantage to the 7D.  also -- 7D has monstor pixel density and very find pixel pitch, which means support and vibration control are all the more important. I'm really hoping this new 18.5MP sensor can, along with digic 5, deliver reliable/usable 1600 a cut above today's 7D. 

343

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Full Specifications

« on: June 08, 2012, 12:06:30 PM »

It IS a NEW sensor.  Canon reports it consumes less power than the old 18MP sensor (not to mention the hybrid AF).  It is NEW.

"The same number of pixels in the EOS Kiss X5, has developed a new image quality and also to enhance performance. Support high-speed readout of 5 fps / up to about, and has realized the imaging plane phase difference AF (hybrid CMOS AF), and further power saving."

Well, the above could be describing the camera itself as having new image quality and further power saving, both of which can be acheived with Digic 5.  imho, without a pre-concieved conclusion here,  the  English gramatical structure produced by google translate cannot be trusted to provide direct evidence  that we have a new technology cycle of the sensor itself, bringing new levels of ISO performance.  Lets hope for the best, but lets not start doing the  hokey pokey until we have real performance data

By NEW do you all mistakenly mean DIFFERENT?

Besides, Digic 5 is VASTLY more important than pixel count, vastly.

no one will argue that.  Digic 5 on top of the old, tired 18mp sensor currently used in the 7D will provide better IQ.  Again, what is conspicuously missing from these  communications is a direct statement indicating a new technology life cycle with regards to the ISO performance of the sensor itself.   Most of us want what you have concluded has already happened -- no increase in MP with a improvment in ISO and IQ of the sensor itself.  I'm just withholding judgement until I see better evidence.

344

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Full Specifications

« on: June 08, 2012, 11:37:49 AM »

as far as "newly developed" that is certainly true from the standpoint of phase detection AF.  what is astonishingly missing from these communication is any notion of a new technology cycle bringing new advances in ISO performance.

this "new" sensor to me sounds like the same, tired old 18MP sensor re-fabbed to accomodate the new AF capabilities without any real new technology cycle in terms of ISO performance. 

345

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]

« on: June 08, 2012, 10:59:51 AM »

I find unlikely that the new crops will have a different sensor since in the past 550D, 600D, 60D and 7D all shared the same sensor. We should wait for a review to see how this new sensor performs.

thats true, and new sensors first appear in xxxD frequently, sometimes in xxD, and of course the 18MP sensor appeared in the 7D first before propgating out to the other crops.  But in all cases the "new" sensor propogated out to the other crops.   So in that sense I agree with you here, that if this truly is a new technology cycle, and higher ISO performing sensor, it will certainly appear in the 70D and even the 7D2 if it stays a 1.6. 

But -- I'm just not  yet convinced that this 18MP "new" sensor is actually new.  Absent are statements such as "new,  low-noise", or other magical terms, which I would have expected -- not just a spec list of ISO ranges, which to me sounds more like they slapped  Digic 5 on top of the 7D sensor.  To be sure, we'll have to wait a few days for the field testers to really discover its ISO performance.  I worry that Canon took the same, tired old 18MP Sensor, re-fabbed it for phase detection AF, but made no real step forward in the technology cycle, i.e. ISO performance.  I certainly hope I'm wrong; just being pessimistic.   

what am I missing here (besides DxO telling us it sucks)?

BTW, ISO 3200 on a crop is way too much for the actual technology. Give me a fully usable ISO 1600 and I'm happy.

+1 on fully usable 1600.  From what I've seen, 7D is a measureable improvement over the 40D, for example, but it doesn't make you do the hokey pokey , imho:-D.  Digic 5 may make additional incremental (if marginal) improvments -- but what we really  need is a game changer at 1600 and for that I think we will need a new sensor technology cycle or APS-H, not a re-worked version of the old 18.