Messages

361

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 22, 2012, 02:06:34 PM »

In my opinion, it would be unusual  to introduce a third Rebel update with the same sensor and it is unusual for a 1.6x sensor to last that long in the first place.

... or, as I'm not growing tired of speculating: Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment at the moment.

lol well, what a fun show to watch...  if Canon simply cannot do any better in the aps-c segment, then you could be right they are just squeezing the last bit of blood out of that turnip by introducing a single Digic-5 Rebel with measureably better IQ than Digic 4. 

But if this were the case, time is running out for Canon to either produce or buy a better sensor!

362

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 70D & EOS 7D Mark II Speculation [CR1]

« on: May 22, 2012, 02:02:16 PM »

On another note, regarding the dual Digic 5 processors... I don't see it happening, I betting on a single Digic 5+. No need for the expense of dual processors when one will do the job just fine.

Cheers,
Wrathwilde

it will be interesting to see ---  the 7D architecture itsef is already dual Digic 4, so maybe dual digic 5 is not that far "out there" in terms of feasibility (i.e. depending on Digic 5 architecture, it may drop in nicely to the 7D bus..). 

additional ramblings:

I wonder if single Digic 5+ would differentiate the 7D2 very well from the others, esp since it is dual digic 4 today.  Note that it takes 2 Digic 5+s and a Digic 4 in the 1DX to produce 12fps with an 18mp sensor, although I'm seeing reports of acheiving 14 fps ...  I just wonder if 7D2 might need more than a single Digic 5+  to get above the current 8 fps (A single Digic 5 can produce 10fps in the powershot, but this is only a 12MP sensor).  Dual Digic 5 in the 7D2, with appropriate firmware and throttling of the I/O bus, could easily acheive 10fps,  leaving room for the superior 1DX performance. 

... but I don't know that much about Digic processors, or if a single Digic 5+ could produce 10fps with 18MP, given the right I/O subsystem.  And I'm also assuming that 7D2 will bump up the fps, and that hasn't been verified either. 

363

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 22, 2012, 01:10:49 PM »

On the other hand, maybe they figure that for "external" competition with 24mp Nikon, since they cannot win they'd better not enter the race at all. And market it as their own "18mp is enough" decision because of noise and dr levels...

could be;  that will be interesting to watch, to be sure.  the other vector here is that Rebels represent the customer segment least likely to have a heavy investment in Canon glass, and probably the least loyal.  it is where new or replacement camera buyers go looking for a consumer DSLR and those with a lick of sense will compare the competition, including the labels on the box, signs at Costco, etc,  and the majority of THOSE comparative shoppers are the least likely to understand the trade-offs between pixel density, DR, and noise.  Canon may see it differently of course, but generally speaking, the consumer masses are a fickle bunch, and the spec wars are waged in the arena of public acceptance, not necessarily technical superiority:  Witness the VHS versis Beta market, for those old enough to remember it. 

Maybe that will be an asset to Canon -- If Canon can convince the MP war consumers of some of the downsides to higher pixel density,  then I can see your point .  It will not be an easy road, when Sony is producing sensors that don't have those same tradeoffs :-)  That said I'm hoping Canon has a trump card up its sleeve and can stay competitive, which of course will benefit the Nikon buyers as well. 

364

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 22, 2012, 09:56:47 AM »

I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

Not unprecedented.  The T3i/600D and T2i/550D have the same MP count, as do the 30D and 20D.

right.  Moreover, the above example also have the same production sensor.   As for historical precident, the Rebels tyically "lead" the XXD in the introduction of new sensors.  For example, while the 30D was resting on its 8MP laurals, Canon introduced the 10MP Sensor to the Rebel, and this "lead" remained for about a year before the 40 got it -- but then Canon introduced the 12MP sensor to the Rebel to "regain the lead".  The notable excption to this "Rebel leads" practice is that for about 6 months, the 50D did "lead" with 15MP but then the 7D intro'd with the 18MP sensor and this trickeled down to, you guessed it, the Rebel -- before the 60D got it.

my conclusion is that Canon uses the Rebels as proving ground for new sensors and turns over this product line more rapidly, due to market pressure and the entry level customer requiring rapid refresh cycles. 

What is unusual this time is that we have already 2 Rebel generations with the same sensor which itself is 3 years old (because 7D got it first).   In my opinion, it would be unusual  to introduce a third Rebel update with the same sensor and it is unusual for a 1.6x sensor to last that long in the first place.  Yes, the rapid,  MP-war driven  pace at which sensors were introduced has calmed down, but my observation is that the Rebel life cycle is still designed to be short, compared to other bodies.

so - just from historical extrapolation the weight of evidence suggests a new sensor in the Rebel.  the CR sources are likely more reliable than my opinion, so I remain confused as to why Canon would intro this one without being able to market some progress re:  the sensor. 

365

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 21, 2012, 08:03:54 PM »

Its just that if we believe the CR2.5 we have to agree that 18MP is it

I'm reading this site for 1.5 years now, I can say that even a [CR3] isn't really trustworthy and just a rumor, let alone anything else [CRx]. And in this case the site owner even wrote he's not sure about the sensor - so atm, imho your guess is as good as mine or cr's.

Canon is very secretive about their releases and follow in Apple's footsteps but without giving some gimmick information to friendly sites once in a while - so this site is the dark, too.

well he wrote that he's not sure if the 18MP sensor is a new one or not.  But yea that aside you make a good point, and I'm surprised the owner didn't editorialize and comment on the what it might mean to make no advance in the MP wars, keeping 18MP.  Accordingly, I suggest (1)  it would be courageous of Canon to update the Rebel and NOT update the 3 year old sensor.  That would be rather boring, as others have pointed out.  (2) if the sensor is new, it would be courageous of Canon to keep the MP at 18MP, in a camera on the front lines of the MP wars.  THAT would be boring too, but very intriguing to be sure!

this Rebel intro should give us a whole new set of clues into the rest of the 1.6x bodies! 

366

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 21, 2012, 07:22:00 PM »

maybe it will be 18.4 or something "ish"  that can still be called "18MP" but still signal a new sensor

I'd be fairly surprised if they stick with exactly 18mp and don't call 18.5 "19mp" for marketing reasons, because the mp count is one of the main specs that will appear in every comparison list - or else they wouldn't have put a minor mp upgrade in the 5d3.

I hear you.  this is one of the most confusing aspects of this discussion.  the site owner here calls it a CR2.5 level rumor, which says information suspected with some credibiltiy at this point is that the sensor is stil 18MP.  ok I get that this information is more trustworthy than my opinion.   but still it would be courageous for Canon to update a MP-war camera with no incremental salvo.  If it truly does come in at 18-ish MP, yes I agree with your assessment that they will call it something attractive.  Its just that if we believe the CR2.5 we have to agree that 18MP is it, no matter how much it would surprise me to see it. 

maybe the MP wars are over and entry level DSLR buyers are suddenly more educated and will see value in a new 18MP sensor that will take better pictures!   

367

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 21, 2012, 06:15:34 PM »

I'm looking forwards to an updated sensor too, but since t2i, t3i, 60D, 7D all have the same sensor, it would be really awkward to have a better sensor in t4i before they update 60D and 7D....like someone said before, they want the customers to move to higher end...

Canon has shown us in the past that they are willing to use the Rebels to showcase a new sensor, I presume to prove it in the field first, and fine tune the mfg process perhaps.  REcent history of the XXD versus the Rebels, in fact, shows that it is more comon for the Rebels to "lead".  Examples;  While the 30D body was resting on its 8MP laurals, the 400D Rebel appeared with its 10MP sensor, and it wasnt for another year that this 10MP sensor  appeared in the 40D.  But soon after 40D appeared with 10MP, Canon promptly introduced the 450D Rebel with a 12MP sensor 6 months later, and this "lead" remaind for another nine months,  until the 50 was introduced with 15MP. 

The 50D briefly lead the 15MP sensor wars for about 3 months before the Rebel 500D followed suit, but then Canon Releaed the 7D shortly thereafter with the 18MP sensor which trickled down, you guessed it, to the Rebel 550D first, and this "lead" (over the XXD)  continued for 6 months before 18MP appeared in the 60D.

so it would not surprise me at all to see a new sensor appear in the T4i.  maybe it will be 18.4 or something "ish"  that can still be called "18MP" but still signal a new sensor

368

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 18, 2012, 08:01:49 PM »

... you're saying his in spite of the different [cr2.5] rumor - courageous :-p

bzzzt!  total brain fart thank-you for bringing reality back.  I still hope its a new sensor ... and do suggest it would be courageous for Canon to introduce a third generation Rebel with the same sensor, and at some level still interest me how an 18 mp sensor (new or not) says about the MP wars

Again, this was a different time when there was more potential left in Canon's aps-c tech for frequent sensor updates and they had less aps-c bodies that could cannibalize each other...

yea I mentioned that.. pre-tsunami days saw a lot of activity and lots of leap frogging.  the point is that there is no historical basis for predicting what Canon will do here in terms of how/when Rebel sensors are introduced relative to xxd. 

369

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 18, 2012, 05:08:38 PM »

Indeed, and Canon just wouldn't put a sensor into the 650d that can outgun the more expensive aps-c bodies. That's why they called it "650d", there will be a 70d with a sensor upgrade and *then* they'll put into a "700d".

Why not... think of the 450D (12 MP), which outgunned the 40D (12 MP). After the 450D, the 50D got a new 15 MP sensor. There is no reason why the 650D shouldn't get a new sensor, which will be later outperformed by the sensor of the 7D2.

I'm sure you meant 40D=10, and I like you're reasoning -- whether or not Canon does is another matter, to be sure   Surely,  the 650D sensor will give us the first clue as to what is actually going on in 1.6x land.  If there is no new sensor, then its clear that they are sqeezing out whatever additional blood is left in that turnip, and 7D2/XXD should get new ones.  7D was, after all, the first to get the18mp sensor, which subsequently appeared in the 550D and then the 60D.  If you review the history, you find there is no rhyme nor reason to which sensors appear in which product lines first. Well -- except that Canon wants to get a lot of life out of the 18MP

I note that the Rebel has already been through two cycles with the same sensor (both 550 and 600), so to me it would be unusual to see a third Rebel refresh with the same sensor -- especially since the Rebels were the last to get this one anyway, and since it is already 3 years old. I get that the Tsunami set things back a ways, but 3 years is a long time especially in Rebel land. 

Moreover, it would not be unusual for a new sensor to appear in the Rebel first without first seeing XXD time:  the 10.1MP sensor of the 40D first appeared in the 400D.   So in that sense, the Rebels can be seen seen as a proving ground for new sensors. 

Conversely, it would not be unusual for a new sensor to appear only in the Rebels --  Witness the  450D, at 12MP which was never seen in the xxD line  -- XXD went from 8 (30D) to 10 (40D) to 15 (50D).   This was a period of time when the MP wars were very hot:  The 12MP sensor didn't last very long even in the Rebels, as the the 450D was replaced with the 15MP sensor of the 500D and subequently the 18MP appeared in the 550D

So to me the rapid pace of the MP wars explains a lot that was happening prior to the Tsunami. Post-Tsunami, we ma have some technology maturity and we have recovery from the Tsunami, which is only 14 months old.  Sony has certainly signaled their intentions, and Canon will have to follow suit with somethign that grabs attention -- I'd venture to suggest a new APS-C sensor in the Rebel 650D, and because Rebel land is a MP war zone, I think they will bump things up, if only slightly, and even with little or no improvement in ISO/DR  beyond software. 

of course, this opinion is worth what you paid to read it, and we'll have to wait and see

370

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 18, 2012, 01:11:47 PM »

and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

Are you suggesting there's a guaranteed deterioration in performance just because 36 is bigger than 12?

And no, I won't quote numbers. I'll just quote the text. 

"For equal, normalized SNR, a high-resolution camera is still better than a low-resolution camera. While it is always possible to simulate a low-resolution camera using a higher resolution camera (since downsampling is easy), it is not possible to simulate a high-resolution camera using a lower-resolution camera other than by interpolating or inventing data."
- http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Insights/More-pixels-offset-noise!/Conclusion

and the D800 and D700 are equal in  normalized SNR?   

371

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 18, 2012, 10:53:34 AM »

Compare 36 MP D800 to 12 MP D700. There was a massive 2 stop increase in dynamic range and a massive improvement in high ISO performance as well.

and you are suggesting that these improvements are substantially due simply to the fact that 36 is a bigger number then 12?

372

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon to Announce 2 Cameras in June [CR2]

« on: May 18, 2012, 09:53:16 AM »

hopefully the emerging Rebel will give us some clues re:  Canon strategy for Crop.  Whether or not the new Rebel contains a new sensor is probably the biggest point of interest

373

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 18, 2012, 09:50:13 AM »

18MP again?. Boring.

I think this summarizes the reason why the MP wars are waged in the consumer crop body space.  Generally, people perceive it is not a better camera unless this number goes up.  for that reason yes it would be boring to enter an updated 18mp camera into a MP war.  My hope is that they introduce a  new sensor and bump up the MPs by some small amount, for example, 21MP (15%) just to maintain excitment, and keep the MP wars where they belong -- in the Rebels.  Higher MPs in such a Rebel, along with a small (or even zero) improvement in ISO/DR, will leave room for further improvments in the same technology life cycle for the 7D2 -- for example, game changing ISO/DR, and 10 fps with Dual Digic 5 and a larger frame buffer.   

374

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 17, 2012, 05:05:18 PM »

from Sony I'm sure you mean

375

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i/650D Specs [CR2.5]

« on: May 17, 2012, 05:01:50 PM »

just itching to know what 18mp sensor the Rebel will see.  I suspect, as disapointing as it would be, that it wil be the same 3 yr old sensor with Digic 5 -- which would be an improvement to be sure, but not a game changer.  it would be a quick turnaround for Canon it would seem to me.  but I hope Canon Delights us with a new 18mp sensor that also finds its way to the 7D - -and that ISO/DR improvements come from more than just software