May 18, 2013, 06:03:29 PM

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Messages - TrumpetPower!

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31
same exposure time and f-stop

...neither of which were appropriate for the scene, resulting once again in the by-now all-too-predictable and all-too-familiar really bad, out-of-focus, badly exposed, poorly developed flat and uninteresting snapshots taken with two of the greatest cameras ever made in what should be a prime location for photography.

Such a waste, really. Such a shame.

Cheers,

b&

32
As a whole: we get it.  Nikon DR > Canon DR.  If the only reason I was buying a camera was for DR, then I'd have a D800.  Thankfully, I realize there's far more to photography than DR... which is why I own Canon gear.

It's even beyond that.

If the dynamic range of the Canon cameras was inadequate or bad, the Nikon trolls would have a valid point. But instead it's a case of Canon cameras having amazingly great dynamic range and the Nikon cameras having even better than that dynamic range. Almost nobody is actually limited by the dynamic range of Canon cameras -- and, indeed, few even push the limits and those few generally don't even push the limits very often.

So why all this fuss over a marginal improvement to something that's not a problem in the first place?

Unless, of course, it's not at all about actual photography and instead just about bragging rights for meaningless numbers on a spec sheet out of some misplaced sense of brand loyalty tied up with personal identity....

Cheers,

b&

33
Does it really matter if you take three shots and throw away two or if you take three shots and use two of them?

It may when you're on travel (or assignment) writing out 74 MB files :P

If you're on vacation and not shooting seriously, you should already expect to be making compromises left and right. Hell, you might not even have time to set up a tripod, let alone square and level the camera. "Only" being able to push your images a half dozen stops before the first hints of noise rather than eight stops before the first hint of noise is the least of your compromises.

If you're on assignment, either you've got the time to do the job right no matter how long it takes, or you've got the money to spend to do the job right in the bare minimum amount of time. If neither, either your pricing and / or booking is off or you're simply out of your league.

And if you're writing out 74 MB files, you sure as hell ain't using a DSLR. If you're shooting with a camera that creates files that size and you don't have the skill and equipment and time to properly expose it in a timely manner, I ain't got no sympathy. My heart, it bleeds; my violin, it plays and plays and plays.

Cheers,

b&

34
Would you care to try again ?

You've obviously failed to capture a good image of the interior of Selby Abbey.  If only you understood the motive of large DR.  Just look at the vertical and horizontal banding and the checkerboard noise patterns in your shot, both typical of Canon's badly underperforming sensors.

Not only, that but he's lost all the detail in the highlights, such as in the attached crop. Just imagine how much more detailed these highlights would have been had he used a D800!

b&

35
It can be concealed in my hand (barely) when I'm in a shot.
Isn't that what the 3-second delay is for? Press button, slip remote into pocket / turn palm / whatever....

If it was just me, sure. But in a family portrait with multiple young kids, shooting several shots in relatively quick succession can help capture the kids' expressions, hopefully without those darn silly faces they think are funny...

Well, in that case, I'd suggest a prescription for some drugs. Lots of happy drugs, for the kids and you both.

But, in seriousness, I'm reminded of the promo video Canon recently put out about extracting stills from 4K video shot with the 1DC. Set up the scene as usual but with the modeling lamps on your lights turned up enough so that they're providing enough light for the video. Don't hide the camera remote in your hand; hide the flash remote. And be recording video the whole time, without telling them that that's what you're doing. Then do the whole "Say 'Cheese!'" bit, pop the flash...and, in post, ignore the flash pops and instead extract the video frames where the kids were sufficiently non-silly and everybody was actually looking at the camera.

Cheers,

b&

36
Technical Support / Re: Grey card and spot metering
« on: April 23, 2013, 10:00:27 AM »
We appear to be addressing two different issues.
 
The OP is trying to get a correct exposure, while others are talking color correction in post.
 
I think we might be confusing the OP's question of how to get a correct exposure so that extreme measures are not required in a attempt to save a image.

I believe I addressed all that in my first post, the first response on the thread: the histogram shows the whole image, not just the metered part; using a gray card can be tricky due to gloss but works with practice and experience; and a hand-held meter is much superior to a gray card.

But in the ensuing discussion, I've also made note that I use my ICC-based workflow first to determine the proper exposure and then to correct color. Make no mistrake: the first (and, I'd suggest, by far the most important) part of my ICC-based workflow is determining proper exposure settings on the camera and then the proper exposure adjustment settings in development -- and that's precisely the topic under discussion (even if what I do is a bit overboard for what Simon is trying to accomplish).

Cheers,

b&

37
so  Mr Trumpet Power and others, tell me how to expose inside a church with criteria as following
no clipped high lights, show information from the lower levels

I doubt you're sincere in asking your question, but I'll be sincere in answering it.

First, you desperately need to learn the basics of photography before you start worrying about the advanced stuff. Walk before you run and all that. And, yes, I know -- you've got 30 years of experience. But in those 30 years you still haven't learned even the first things about photography, as evidenced by your inability to set a proper exposure (f/1.4 for architecture and it's not a bad joke)? or achieve focus. You're so obsessed about "information" in highlights and shadows, but you're completely oblivious to the fact that you don't have any information in the midtones either, so of course you don't have any information in shadows or highlights.

And while you're learning that you also need to learn about the light. Even if you have the greatest camera imaginable, it's not going to do you a damned bit of good if you're shooting in bad light. Shoot in great light and even your iPhone is going to make good, if not great, photos. My first, most sincere response to how to shoot inside that church, and the exact same response you'd get from any successful professional photographer, especially one who specializes in architecture like this, is to fix the light. That at least in part is going to mean waiting for the right time of day and / or year and / or weather conditions for your vision -- and, of course, that also means having such a vision and knowing what the right conditions are to achieve it. It's also very likely to include directly manipulating the light, including turning on and off selected lights in the facility as well as supplementing with your own strobes or hot lights. (And candles! Candles are great for church interiors, especially ones that already have setups for them. But you might have to wait for the right ecclesiastical season for them....)

After you've learned the basics of light as well as exposure, composition, focus, and the like such that you're able to take a decent and detailed picture just using the normal part of the camera's dynamic range, then it's time to start expanding upon it. And I think the first thing you in particular need to learn about that is that you need to let highlights be highlights and shadows be shadows. Your repeated failing, with all cameras you've demonstrated with including your oh-so-beloved D800, is that you keep trying to turn deep shadows into highlights and very bright highlights into shadows. That's never going to look anything other than really hideous, even if you have idealized perfect equipment that could do the job without any noise or clipping or other faults. Instead, what you do is take those pure-black ultra-deep shadows and place them in Zone II, where they're still pretty dark but show a bit of texture. The shadows that already fall in Zone II you can push a stop to Zone III or maybe Zone IV, but you want to stay away from Zone V because that's where they stop being shadows and start looking really weird, unnatural, and ugly. Same thing at the other end; your goal isn't to turn that blown-out sky into midnight blue, but to turn it into a faint powder blue so that it still looks very bright but it's got enough color to it so that you can tell it was a clear day and not a cloudy one.

When you do that, you maximize the contrast in your scene; it'll have amazing amounts of "pop." And it also looks very realistic; it'll be hard to see into the extreme shadows and highlights but you'll still be able to make things out. You also leave the bulk of the useful dynamic range to your midtones, which is where the detail that people are actually interested in lives.

How you actually technically achieve that is an almost-irrelevant distraction. As should be obvious by now, pressing the shutter is the absolute most meaningless part of the whole process, so what's the problem with pressing it a few times?

But if you've fixed the light, the image is going to need minimal post-processing, and the preview on the back of the camera is going to be a very good rough draft of your final image. Maybe some shadows will be a little bit darker than in the final version, but not much. And maybe you'll need a second exposure for the view through the window, but so what?

If you haven't fixed the light, then, again, the time you'll need to spend in the darkroom no matter what to fix it is meaningless compared to taking a second exposure. Indeed, one of the best ways of dealing with a single capture with lots of dynamic range is to develop the raw file multiple times with different exposure settings and then composite them all together as if you had taken multiple exposures in the field...so what's the problem with actually taking those multiple exposures?

And besides. Everybody with a clue always brackets shots like these, especially in the digital world. It's so cheap and it provides so much insurance. Does it really matter if you take three shots and throw away two or if you take three shots and use two of them?

So, there you have it. My advice to you on interior architecture photography and photography in general. I very much doubt you'll do anything with it but whine about how much better your D800 is than anything Canon ever made, but maybe somebody in the peanut gallery new to photography will take something away with it.

Cheers,

b&

38
Technical Support / Re: Grey card and spot metering
« on: April 22, 2013, 10:08:33 PM »
I use the X-Rite Colour Checker Passport, you can find info/videos here.

The Passport is a very good portable target and what I use out in the field. The software that ships with it leaves a great deal to be desired, even if it's significantly better than using a gray card or any of the other popular tools.

A big part of the problem is DNG profiles, which really leave a lot to be desired, on so many levels. But it's what you're stuck with if you're processing with Adobe products...and it, in turn, is so much superior to Canon's Picture Styles that it's not even funny....

In the studio, I use my own target that includes a replica of a ColorChecker and a couple dozen other paints and a dozen wood chips and a few hundred patches printed on an iPF8100 and a light trap and some Teflon and probably some other bits and pieces I'm forgetting at the moment....

Cheers,

b&

39
It can be concealed in my hand (barely) when I'm in a shot.

Isn't that what the 3-second delay is for? Press button, slip remote into pocket / turn palm / whatever....

b&

40
If everybody arguing past each other on this thread had started by reading that link, one might imagine a lot less sound and fury....

A vain hope, I'm afraid...   ::)

That, and think of what it would do to the popcorn sales....

b&

41
Lenses / Re: TS-E 17mm or 24mm
« on: April 22, 2013, 08:51:52 PM »
By tilting, you can achieve a deep DOF from front to back and by shifting, you can overcome the keystone effect/converging verticals.

It's not just squared-off manmade structures that benefit from movements, of course, though that's where it's the most instantly obvious.

This attached shot was also made with both tilt and shift on the TS-E 24. The flowers were just a foot or two away from the camera. The Superstition Mountains in the background are a mile or so away...and yet the flowers, the cliffs from base to peak, and the meadow between are all in sharp focus.

This is very close to straight out of the camera, too. No cropping. It's a colorimetric rendition, or very close; I had to dial back the sky by about a stop to bring back some of the color, but that's it.

I haven't made a print of this yet, but I've got plans for at least a 24" x 36" print, or I might even go all the way to 36" x 54.

Cheers,

b&

42
I'm not into the intervalometer thing. When I'm in the field, I'll use the generic Canon wired remote, whatever model number it is. When I'm in the studio, I'll shoot tethered and the spacebar or mouse becomes the shutter release. If I was going to do the intervalometer thing, I'd probably either shoot tethered and let the laptop handle the triggering, or I'd finally spend the time to figure out one of those apps that lets you control your DSLR with your iPhone.

Cheers,

b&

43
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/


If everybody arguing past each other on this thread had started by reading that link, one might imagine a lot less sound and fury....

b&

44
Lenses / Re: TS-E 17mm or 24mm
« on: April 22, 2013, 06:32:44 PM »
For somebody who uses 16mm as often as you do get the 17TS-E. If you want a bit more flexibility with minimal loss in IQ then get a 1.4TC MkIII.

+1

You've done a superlative job working around the limitations of the 16-35, but there isn't a shot amongst those you posted that I personally wouldn't have gone with the TS-E 17 if I had a choice between the two. Now that I've seen what you're drawn to, it seems pretty clear that the 17 is for you, in spades.

Cheers,

b&

45
Inside the church in Lund there is down in the vault a work of art hanging on the wall
Both cameras exposed exactly alike, highlight consists of a barred window.

Once again Mikael demonstrates that his idea of how to expose an image is to do everything any quasi-competent photographer instinctively knows is insanely stupid to do and simply will not produce anything even remotely worth looking at, and then he does even more of it.

We get it, Mikael. You really, truly, honestly, passionately can't take a photograph to save your life and you're proud of that fact. We really get it.

What we don't get is why you're so proud of flaunting your incompetence. Most people with skills as bad as yours don't go out of their way to grab everybody's attention for the sole purpose of rubbing everybody's noses in your problems.

Cheers,

b&

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