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Messages - Stone

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121
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV Saga
« on: September 16, 2010, 01:27:14 PM »
everyone's going to have a different take on it.

stone, I can see where you're coming from and I agree that there's no reason not to look at the Nikon system once you upgrade to FF.

it isn't reasonable to assume everyone will make that decision, as different people have different priorities.  for someone shooting architecture and landscapes, Nikon's AF system means little to me as I only actually ever use the one center AF point.  the FPS also doesn't matter, since I've long outgrown trying to shoot HDR brackets handheld (and for that matter, autobracketing isn't important either).  however, the 140g difference in weight and 9 MP difference in image size do matter to me.

I'm not sure where the $4000 price tag came from; you can wildly speculate about price all you want but until it comes from Canon it's quite meaningless.  I can't imagine a 5D Mark III would suddenly veer upwards with a 30% or 50% increase in MSRP over the 5D Mark II.  it could certainly be in the $3000-3500 range, which I think would be acceptable if they shoved the 7D's AF system into it and made some other updates

I agree kubelik,
 
The more I think about it, turning the 5DIII into a "do it all" camera doesn't make sense to me anymore.  Many looking to buy that camera will either buy it for the HD Video or the high MP for landscapes & studio work.  People looking at upgrading from other 5D bodies would want more of the same with a few upgrades to bring the camera current.  Canon would be foolish to change a successful formula for the 5DIII or price it dramatically higher than the current $2500 price tag.

A new high performance body is what's needed to sit above the 5DIII, and I contend that it doesn't need to cost $4K, not when the competition is doing it for much less....

122
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV Saga
« on: September 16, 2010, 10:57:53 AM »
If they produce such a camera and try to charge $4K for it, people will just buy the D700 replacement.  I know I will.......

I'd pay the extra $1K for the Canon body.  I'd lose far more than $1K to convert thousands of $ worth of Canon lenses to the appropriate Nikon versions.

Then it would make perfect sense for you to pay the extra $1K.  Since I currently shoot a crop body with all EF-S lenses, I'll be upgrading all of my glass either way when I move to FF.  This is why I'm being overly critical of Canon,  I'll keep my next body for several years so I won't be skimping on the specs.

123
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV Saga
« on: September 16, 2010, 09:54:35 AM »
I want Canon to release 3D body (fullframe 7D body).

There is no affordable FF body for sports and action photography! That's shame!

Would you consider a 3D like body at around $4000 affordable?

IS D700, $4000?
Such camera must be below $3000.

The doesn't matter, just fast FF camera with at least 6-7fps and good working AF!

+1

A 3D MUST come in at the $3K price point because Nikon has already established the market, Canon does not get to redefine it.  If they produce such a camera and try to charge $4K for it, people will just buy the D700 replacement.  I know I will.......

124
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon 60D v. Nikon D7000
« on: September 15, 2010, 11:06:25 AM »
I'm a canon guy and hate whiners as much as the next guy.  I do want to observe that nikon has thrown a huge curveball at canon with the d7000 and is just daring canon to try to take a swing at it.

if the d7000 is going to retail for $1100 (that $700 figure someone threw out there is totally bogus and erroneous), I simply don't see how canon can retail the 60D at the same price.  for the time being, if someone is looking to buy into an mid-range consumer cam without preexisting glass ... how can you seriously recommend the 60D?

that being said, canon and nikon have almost always done off-step major updates; I have no doubt that 2011 or 2012 is going to be wild for people interested in the bigger bodies, and I'm happy for that.  my only worry is not having enough dough on hand to take advantage of the goodies canon will be dropping next year or the year after

I'll admit that I've been whining a lot more than normal, I'm even starting to annoy myself  ;D

But I'm starting to see a pattern with Canon, they seem uninterested in beating the competition, just evolving their bodies in their own little world which I think is a huge mistake.  They released the 7D which I still consider the king of crop bodies and I thought was a sign of the new Canon, but then they release the 1DIV which while a great body didn't break any new ground, it was more of a 1DIIIn IMO.  Now they release the 60D which most ppl i've talked to give a great big yawn and it gets smacked down within a few days by the D7000.  I've always looked to Canon to advance the DSLR market and I just don't see them doing it right now.

125
EOS Bodies / Re: split the 5d series like the 1D series please!
« on: September 15, 2010, 10:45:13 AM »
i can't see why this camera doesnt make sense:
16-18mp
6.5 fps
full frame
body like 5D II
quality iso, comparable to what the nikon d700 offers, (hopefully better, that camera is aging)
the af system of the 1d, scaled down to 19 points
$2700-2800 body only

this makes all the sense in the world, and the d700 has proven such a camera can be successfull
(if anything, make these numbers better or the price lower)

people know how to pp out a lot of noise, but taking a picture you know is going to require a lot of work is never fun (or, not as fun as knowing it will be perfect SOOC)

Other than MP and video capabilities Canon is playing catch up to the D700.  Those aren't bad specs, but they will almost certainly be beaten by the D700 replacement which will up the MP and add video.   FPS & AF seem to be the things Canon is trying to keep exclusive to their 1 series cameras and this simply won't fly anymore.  I'm noticing that the Nikon bodies also seem to have better weather sealing across their advanced amateur/professional product line as well.  I hate to keep beating up Canon, as I love their bodies and would prefer not to learn a new system, but this is getting ridiculous, the 60D just got pimp slapped by the D7000.  Come on Canon!!!

126
EOS Bodies / Re: split the 5d series like the 1D series please!
« on: September 14, 2010, 11:59:43 AM »
No needs to split anything. Many people wants more pixels, let them have it in 5D III.
It`s obvious, Canon line is missing camera like Nikon D700. Canon just need to fill this hole and make it little bit better, not to be always behind Nikon.

Let`s call it 3D:

Small body (like 5D)
FF
12-16mp
5-6 fps
Good AF
Clean ISO 6400 or even 12800 (not just acceptable, but CLEAN!)
Could be without video if it helps to make it cheaper
Could be plastic body (like 60D) if it helps to make it cheaper
Price $2000

This camera will not compete with 1D or 1Ds or 5D, because it`s different.

1D - for sport;
1Ds - in studio; large prints;
3D - weddings, events;
5D - landscapes

Why do people always want a fast full frame camera?
That's what the 1D or 7D are for - one a 1,3 crop the other a 1,6 crop.

I cannot see the point of having a lower resolution FF camera in Canon's lineup.

And before someone says noise - the current 7D does quite well with noise, the 1D MK IV is even better, noise is not a significant problem.

Adding another camera would be a problem  - simply because producing another sensor would be expensive.

The 7D does well at high ISO with it's cropped sensor but that comes at the expense of noise in the lower ISO ranges.  There are many examples out there of noise showing up in 7D shots at ISO 800 and below where virtually no noise has become the norm and is expected.  The 1DIV has excellent noise handling but it's a $5K body and a larger sensor so noise handling SHOULD be better, it's still noisier than the best FF sensors.

Honestly, I don't care if producing another sensor is expensive.  Last I checked Canon is a multi-billion dollar company so I don't feel sorry for them if they have to come out of pocket to produce something that their customers want.  Canon has no love for you or for me, ultimately we are just entries on a balance sheet so make them earn your business.  To believe Canon is doing the absolute best that they can for their customers is laughable.  They could have made a fast, FF camera several years ago but were quite happy letting their customers buy 2 bodies instead and if the D700 hadn't crashed the party, they would be just as happy to continue the status quo.

I want

-- 8+ fps for my kids sports and any other fast moving action I might want to shoot
-- FF for wide-angles, better DOF at smaller apertures and IQ that still can't be matched by a cropper
-- Cleaner high ISO because I shoot often in low light and spraying speedlites all over the place is getting LESS acceptable

My current company of choice is Canon as I have been using their products for years.  I'm giving them time to give me what I want as a consumer even though they could have done it long ago.  If they don't, I'll support the company that tries to do so.  When it comes to my wallet, loyalty to any manufacturer is a losing proposition........

127
EOS Bodies / Re: The Radical 1Ds Mark IV [CR1]
« on: September 13, 2010, 12:14:22 PM »
I wouldn't be surprised if this pans out.  As I said in the other 1Ds thread, there's a lot more money to be made by moving the 1Ds upscale into the medium format space where $20K+ price tags are the norm.  Buyers in this market are looking to spend that kind of coin and a killer Medium Format HDDSLR could shake things up in that market quite nicely.  Quad Digic V's pushing 50MP files anyone?  Canon could also offer a new line of lenses that are not EF mount made specifically for this new system.  These customers have the money and Canon believes it has the tech, I have no reason to doubt them.

When it comes to the 1Ds, a lot of people are still thinking about beating Nikon/Sony/Panasonic, I'm willing to bet Canon is thinking about stealing some market share from Leica/Mamiya/Red, I'm definitely cheering for them.

This rumor has me even more excited about the possibilities for the 5DIII, Canon won't need to hold anything back, Go Canon!!!!!!

128
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV in 2011 or 2012 [CR2]
« on: September 12, 2010, 01:21:48 PM »
this is the key a lot of people are missing.  I know i started my system with canon because i saw that they led the professional market with their flagship cameras.  I wanted to a) join a company that would allow me to (in my dreams) give me a camera to work up to and b) know im using the same brand as the pros.

if they lose the flagship market, selling their cheaper models wont be as easy.

This doesn't surprise me at all, as the world economy continues to turn around and disposable income goes up Canon needs sales to fund R&D for the next generation.  The 1Ds has never sold in great numbers and releasing a new $6 - $8K body that will NOT sell in great numbers probably doesn't make financial sense right now.

Yet there are a group of elite users that demand such a camera. These users also tend to have the coin to drop on 10K+ of lenses, multiple bodies, and CPS memberships. Also, people that use such a camera are influencers, a good word from them or some excellent work made by can build sales for Canon on the low end.

No one said Canon should abandon their flagships, what I think they're doing is looking at the high-end market and seeing that they don't NEED to upgrade their flagship at this time since the 1DsIII is still very competitive with the competition.  Also it makes more sense to wait until we're closer to a D4x release so Nikon doesn't have a year to study Canon's new flagship which is what happened with the D3x.

129
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV in 2011 or 2012 [CR2]
« on: September 11, 2010, 11:34:53 PM »
The whole post that this thread is based on is ridiculous. If Canon wasn't bringing out the 1Ds Mark IV this year, why would testers have had the cameras for several months now? How long do testers normally have cameras for?

A camera, especially one as complex as the 1Ds can easily be in testing for well over a year.  If significant bugs are found, parts of the system might need to be tweaked or even completely re-engineered and testing begins all over again for that system.  Working 1DsIV prototypes have probably been in existence since 2008.... 

130
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV in 2011 or 2012 [CR2]
« on: September 11, 2010, 04:20:29 PM »
This doesn't surprise me at all, as the world economy continues to turn around and disposable income goes up Canon needs sales to fund R&D for the next generation.  The 1Ds has never sold in great numbers and releasing a new $6 - $8K body that will NOT sell in great numbers probably doesn't make financial sense right now.

Yet there are a group of elite users that demand such a camera. These users also tend to have the coin to drop on 10K+ of lenses, multiple bodies, and CPS memberships. Also, people that use such a camera are influencers, a good word from them or some excellent work made by can build sales for Canon on the low end.

I agree with this although elite is a relative term, these professionals might be among the best at what they do and they have a certain amount of influence because of it.  It doesn't change the fact that the 1Ds is a low volume seller and has a significantly lower impact to Canon's bottom line.  The lowly Rebels, XXD and "lower end" XD cameras are what keep the doors open and the lights on.  So my original argument remains, the 1Ds has essentially 1 competitor and it won't be upgraded for probably another 2 years, Canon has time to release the 1Ds later as its specs are current with the competition.  I understand flagship cameras and why they exist but my point is, the impact to Canon will be minimal if they don't release a 1DsIV in the near term and they know it.  They can, however shake up the market by introducing a high performance FF camera that's within the reach of the non-elite professional and advanced hobbyist, a market with a greater potential for immediate profitability and growth.

Many of us can drop $15K on a pro body and L glass no credit cards necessary, and I'll probably never take a photo for money.  I've probably blown more on greens fees and alcohol over the past couple of years, but I simply don't spend enough time taking photos to justify that kind of investment.  Perhaps one day that will change and I might actually give a flip about the opinions of the "elite"...

131
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV in 2011 or 2012 [CR2]
« on: September 11, 2010, 10:47:19 AM »
To those that are wishing/wanting a 3D like camera, would they still  pony the extra dough for it?
With the 7D and 1D series the difference in price mainly to a superior AF system is quite dramatic.  I doubt Canon would release a FF superior AF digital camera for under $3grand starting.  I would assume a price of $3499 going up seems about right (though Canon would then seem to 1up me as usual and price it something like $3799/3999+), but then again that's like a 7D + 5D2 right there.

If this camera comes along I'm ready to buy.  Depending on specs, my price range is $2500-$3500 body-only.   It doesn't need to cost more than that as the competition has already proven.  I'm just a hobbyist with no desire to profit from photography so I'm not rushed, but I've been ready to upgrade to FF for quite a while now.

132
EOS Bodies / Re: don't think so
« on: September 11, 2010, 01:34:15 AM »
I'm not buying it.  5D3 ahead of 1Ds4?  1Ds is supposed to be the flagship.  Already folks are buying 5D2 over 1Ds3 to save coin, similar IQ for a lot less dough.  Why would Canon put their cutting-edge stuff in a $2.5 k box (5D3) when they can charge $8k for it by sticking it in a 1Ds body.

Would you rather sell 5,000 cameras at $8k a pop or 50,000 cameras at $2.5K?  Its all about total revenue.  Very, very few people amateur or professional can justify the pricetag of a 1Ds....

I'd rather sell 5,000 cameras at $8k, have it pay for R&D, then put the same technology in a lower-end cam and mass produce, sell 50,000 units at $2.5k.

Given your logic, why would canon have charged $8k for the previous 1Ds models when they could have sold more of 'em at a lower price.  But they did....

Given how long it would take you to sell those 5,000 $8K bodies to a much smaller market of potential buyers, you'd be lucky to be in business long enough to to develop your $2.5K value leader.  ;D
 
  I'd sell the $2.5K bodies at a much faster rate to a much, much larger audience and realize a far more rapid ROI allowing me the operating revenue I need to stay in business and expand my production capabilities.  A portion of that revenue could then go into R&D and be used to produce my "flagship".  Economies of scale FTW....

133
EOS Bodies / Re: don't think so
« on: September 10, 2010, 11:50:04 PM »
I'm not buying it.  5D3 ahead of 1Ds4?  1Ds is supposed to be the flagship.  Already folks are buying 5D2 over 1Ds3 to save coin, similar IQ for a lot less dough.  Why would Canon put their cutting-edge stuff in a $2.5 k box (5D3) when they can charge $8k for it by sticking it in a 1Ds body.

Would you rather sell 5,000 cameras at $8k a pop or 50,000 cameras at $2.5K?  Its all about total revenue.  Very, very few people amateur or professional can justify the pricetag of a 1Ds....

134
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV in 2011 or 2012 [CR2]
« on: September 10, 2010, 05:18:55 PM »
People are forggeting how old the 1Ds MkIII is, it's still the last in the Canon lineup to add video.

There are all the new features on the 1D MkIV to add to the 1Ds (bigger sensor, better dynamic range, more AF points, etc..) to make it "fresh", plus any new ones they didn't want to included in the slightly rushed-out 1D MkIV

On top of that, every single 1Ds has been released every 3 years every November, so it's at it's due date now.

Also, don't forget a CR2 is just someone who was right in the past. They could have been right in the past based on luck. Or even the source that the CR2 source is getting this info from got some bad info to pass on.

Bottom line: It's still a RUMOR, hence the site. It would suck if it were true, but i'm still holding my breath for a CR3 or Photokina.

I agree it's just a CR2 rumor right now, but TBH, other than a few high dollar studio photogs and spec whores like myself  ;D
there aren't many people who are checking for this camera.  $6-$8K is just too much scratch for most of us even those with disposable income.  However far more people, myself included have cash in hand and are looking to buy in the $2-$3.5K range right now or within the next few months.  Since the bodies in this range have all been out for a couple of   years, we're all on the edge of our seats waiting for the new models to drop.  There's a lot more anticipation and potential sales waiting for Canon & Nikon in this range and I think they both know it.  Again, this is pure speculation by me and not in any way based on fact, just my knowledge of marketing and supply/demand which I deal with daily.

I know Canon needs a flagship for bragging rights if nothing else, but the 1Ds really has only one competitor in the D3x and they are pretty much still equally matched in performance and price, it really boils down to which brand you prefer.  The 1Ds was released in 11/07 and the D3x about a year later, if Nikon sticks to their 4 year release cycle, the D4x won't be released for another 2 years, Canon probably feels like they have plenty of time to put out the 1Ds and are concentrating on more profitable SLRs.

135
EOS Bodies / Re: 1Ds Mark IV in 2011 or 2012 [CR2]
« on: September 10, 2010, 11:32:14 AM »
This doesn't surprise me at all, as the world economy continues to turn around and disposable income goes up Canon needs sales to fund R&D for the next generation.  The 1Ds has never sold in great numbers and releasing a new $6 - $8K body that will NOT sell in great numbers probably doesn't make financial sense right now.  Releasing a high performance, FF body would provide entry into a market where Canon isn't currently competing.  The 1DIV comes at too high of a price point and competes with more expensive Nikon bodies so there is room here for another body to gain some market share.

I think we just might see the mythical 3D finally released to fill this niche with the 5DIII taking on the high MP "studio" duties until the next 1Ds is ready.  I believe Canon wants the 1DsIV to crash the MF party where people are willing to pay a lot more for the ultimate in IQ.  The 3D has been talked about for years, but it makes sense to release it now as it would complete Canon's advanced amateur, semi-pro lineup very nicely.  7D high performance crop, 5D ultimate FF IQ for studio work, 3D fast & FF 16-18MP for the "all of the above" shooters like myself.  Canon would literally have something for everyone who wants to step up from the Rebels and upgrade their aging XXD cameras, many of these people myself included are considering the dark side because it seems that Canon wants us to buy 2 cameras to shoot everything we like.  I still don't know what purpose the 60D serves, it seems to exist only to fill the price gap between the T2i and 7D.

The 1 series remains the ultimate workhorse with the best weather sealing, fastest FPS, best AF and great IQ, but also a niche camera.

Of course this is all wild speculation on my part, but it would allow Canon to compete on every front.  People disagree with me but I'll bet Canon execs get a little heartburn every time they hear about the D700 and it's replacement, its a market they could have been dominating for years....

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