December 20, 2014, 06:35:49 AM

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Messages - David Hull

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16
Canon General / Re: Site trolling
« on: October 02, 2014, 11:12:36 AM »
I think there is a genuine concern that Canon sensors are no long competitive and are a generation or two behind Sony and Nikon (same sensor).  There is some minor gripping about this and that feature or mirroless offerings but the real complaint is the sensor.  When Canon had the best sensors (a long run) the Nikon fan sites were awash with similar complaints on their sites and the fanboys saying things like "12MP is all you ever need".  Same thing you are seeing now on this site.  The fanboys are saying things like "18MP is all you need". "I would never buy a camera with than many mega pixels", or "It's the glass, yeah, thats why I stay with Canon" ignoring the fact that Nikon has equally fine glass and Sony shooters have access to better stuff.  If Canon catches up the same old fanboys will be lining up to buy the best stuff and crowing about how important the big sensors are.
I think some of the Canon commenters should feel a bit vindicated by the fact that Nikon just dialed back the MP in their latest FF camera to 24.  They must have had some reason for doing that.  It wasn't to save money as the sensor will be the same parts cost.  I suspect that there were plenty of Nikon users that really had no use for 36 MP.  I think they wanted to put something closer to the 5DIII.

Nikon dialed back nothing.  Did they take their 36mp sensor off the market?????? They used a cheaper (but better than Canon) sensor so they would not compete against the 820D.  They built a camera at a price point (cheaper than Canon, more MP) so as not to cannibalize a market they already serve.  Nikon gives their customers a choice of FF sensors "36mm?  yeah, we have that..... will 24 do?  Sure, we have that too".  Canon (18, or 20 or 22....want more?  we don't have it and you don't need it....BTW we have better glass).  I will not stop saying it.  The most important component of a camera is the sensor.  Canon sensors are not as good as Nikon and Sony sensors.  CANON!! WE WANT BETTER SENSORS!!!! WE WANT WHAT NIKON AND SONY HAVE!!!!
That 24 MP sensor isn't any cheaper than the 36 MP one -- same technology, same wafer cost, same yield, same number of die per wafer -- that's how it works.  They put a 24 MP camera on the market because there was demand for better performance in terms of something other than the MP number.  I expect that a sufficient number of Nikon users wanted smaller file size and the 62% higher firing rate that comes with it.

As for your last comment, that about sums it up as far as I am concerned.  We want it because Nikon and Sony have it.  Nothing to do with better photography or any semblance of real practical need.  It is all about feature envy from what I can tell.  Here is a clue for you:  As long as all you do is bellyache on camera forums, Canon needs to take no action.  Nikon and Sony apparently make what you want so sell all your stuff and go buy what they make. If more of you mindless whiners did that (instead of all the mindless whining and forum trolling), you would [probably see more action from Canon -- money talks.

17
Canon General / Re: Site trolling
« on: October 02, 2014, 09:37:29 AM »
I think there is a genuine concern that Canon sensors are no long competitive and are a generation or two behind Sony and Nikon (same sensor).  There is some minor gripping about this and that feature or mirroless offerings but the real complaint is the sensor.  When Canon had the best sensors (a long run) the Nikon fan sites were awash with similar complaints on their sites and the fanboys saying things like "12MP is all you ever need".  Same thing you are seeing now on this site.  The fanboys are saying things like "18MP is all you need". "I would never buy a camera with than many mega pixels", or "It's the glass, yeah, thats why I stay with Canon" ignoring the fact that Nikon has equally fine glass and Sony shooters have access to better stuff.  If Canon catches up the same old fanboys will be lining up to buy the best stuff and crowing about how important the big sensors are.
I think some of the Canon commenters should feel a bit vindicated by the fact that Nikon just dialed back the MP in their latest FF camera to 24.  They must have had some reason for doing that.  It wasn't to save money as the sensor will be the same parts cost.  I suspect that there were plenty of Nikon users that really had no use for 36 MP.  I think they wanted to put something closer to the 5DIII.

18
EOS Bodies / Re: No EOS-1D X Replacement in 2014 [CR2]
« on: September 29, 2014, 10:22:26 AM »
But when?

I'm mostly curious about the 5D replacement.  Spring or not?
Didn't we just get one?

19
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon Says Higher Resolution Sensors Are Coming Soon
« on: September 25, 2014, 12:56:37 AM »
They also strongly implied that they don't care about low ISO DR and will wait until after sales tank, if ever, to bother. I think they just don't like the cost of a new fab and are doing everything to avoid it, not caring what anyone in forums says or how DxO scores look and gambling that only a few will leave and sales will keep going on as they have been for years to come even if they don't improve low ISO DR (and in other places, the word about 4k for 5D4 sounds pretty negatory as well) Oh well.

Guess it's time to look Sony/Nikon if you care about low ISO DR. It sounds like it might be a loooong time before Canon responds to Exmor. Quite a shame (again only if DR matters to you, for some it won't much)....

"One thing we know from our own testing is that Canon DSLR sensors can’t quite compete with some modern sensors from Sony in terms of dynamic range. How important to you is developing sensor technology?

We are very focused on getting the best image quality. I’m not sure what measurements you’re looking at but when it comes to dynamic range for example we consider image quality as a whole, from low to high ISO sensitivities and on balance we consider our sensors to be the best.

My ideal camera is one that can take a picture in any environment from complete darkness to the brightest sunshine.

So in your opinion your sensors are currently the best [DSLR sensors] on the market?

Yes. In the EOS 7D Mark II for example the sensor we’ve used is improved compared to the previous generation, especially at high ISO and in shadows. There’s less noise."

The fact that he has to pretend that he's never heard of DxO or any forum talk or that maybe he somehow actually hasn't heard anything in the forums or from any review sites, paints a kind of bleak picture for DR. If they had something remotely close to being ready, you'd surely think he would have responded in a much different fashion. (The only possible hopeful way to read it is that he was just saving face for the current stuff and valuing that more than being afraid of giving the impression that they were not about to move sensors forward soon.  ??? :))

 :'(

I think they may be surprised at 5D4 sales if they skip low ISO DR fixes and 4k and the only thing they give it over the 5D3 is more MP. And if they do that again for 5D5....

If you don't shoot much any low ISO high DR stuff and don't care about rescuing the odd bad shot, I'm sure the 5D4 will be great though for stills.

They also strongly implied that they don't care about low ISO DR and will wait until after sales tank, if ever, to bother. I think they just don't like the cost of a new fab and are doing everything to avoid it, not caring what anyone in forums says or how DxO scores look and gambling that only a few will leave and sales will keep going on as they have been for years to come even if they don't improve low ISO DR (and in other places, the word about 4k for 5D4 sounds pretty negatory as well) Oh well.


Could you post a link to the article you are referring to?  I read the one on DPR and it really didn't say anything like this at all.

20
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: POLL: What's more important, gps or wifi?
« on: September 23, 2014, 09:51:02 AM »
You missed another option:  Don't give a damn about either of them.

I have GPS in my Car and My phone why do I need another one in my camera.  What's next one in my shoes?

WiFi Not sure why I need that in a camera either.
Hi,
    Sometime, I also wonder this when I wear my watch... my phone got clock, my camera got clock, my GPS unit got clock and even my bluetooth earpiece also got clock, so why am I wearing the watch??? Ha ha ha ;D ;D ;D Hmm... May be the only reason I can think of why I wear my watch is that the battery life of my watch outlast all the above device as the watch had auto solar cell charging (basically will last as long as the watch is working), so if one day I forgot to charge all the above device, I still had my watch... ha ha ha

   Have a nice day.
Sometimes I have thought that same thing.  I think that the reason is that for some 50 years I have gotten used to looking at the device on my wrist for the time.  I suppose I could get used to looking at my phone for the time (I know that some people have) but I just haven't bothered.

21
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: POLL: What's more important, gps or wifi?
« on: September 23, 2014, 01:21:20 AM »
You missed another option:  Don't give a damn about either of them.

I have GPS in my Car and My phone why do I need another one in my camera.  What's next one in my shoes?

WiFi Not sure why I need that in a camera either.

22
Lenses / Re: Do you keep all your boxes?
« on: September 21, 2014, 02:13:00 PM »
I like to know if you keep all your lens boxes? I can imagine that it's useful to keep the camera box , but do you keep all the other boxes too?
Keep in mind that I am a minimalist ;)
It really depends on what you end up doing with the lenses in the long run. If you sell them eventually, it is nice to sell it with all the trimmings.  I also keep the receipt in the box in case I ever need it.

23
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specifications Confirmed
« on: September 11, 2014, 11:20:32 AM »
Is the 70D that much behind the competition in terms if image quality? Is it really hideous compared to say a D7100, K3, Nex A6000 with much lower dynamic range, ISO performance and resolution?

I don't think so. In all the reviews they seem pretty neck to neck, with canon taking a small lead in noise and the Nikon taking a small lead in resolution.

This gives comparable image quality to all the industry, in a 10fps, 65 AF points, and all metal body. For the first time, we have a 10fps professional sports body for 1800$! That's definitely something. Nikon users have been dreaming for this camera since they had the D300.
Go look on DPR or some of the other sites at the 70D, 5DIII etc. compared to some of it's competitors and see it you see any big difference in the images.

24
EOS Bodies / Re: Apple Watch....
« on: September 10, 2014, 11:35:41 AM »
Did you folks see the new Apple Watch? http://www.apple.com/watch/

So riddle me this....  How is it that Apple can fit WiFi AND Bluetooth 4.0 on a circuit the size of a postage stamp and we can't get this built into our newer DSLRs?   ;)
Qualcomm or Apple is not building the CPU's for the cameras.  Too bad, they would have much longer battery life.

25
I, for one at least, would love to see this endless stream of new models slow down.  I like what Canon is doing which is to pop out something new every three years or so (for the high end ones at least).  In the film days, we used a camera for 5 years or more w/o feeling the need to upgrade.  The feature set in most of these things is pretty comprehensive at this point, IMO.

my $.02 anyway.

26
EOS Bodies / Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« on: September 03, 2014, 01:00:29 AM »
29 pages now...

My hobby is speaker building and on some audio websites, it's not unusual for threads to be 1000+ pages long.  And there we're often debating sound quality characteristics differences that are highly subjective, can't be measured, and most people don't even believe exist.  At least sensor performance can be measured.
Yes but the measurements mean about the same as they do with speakers.  Most people don't measure them, they listen to them.

27
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Guessing Game- Canon or Nikon?
« on: September 02, 2014, 11:09:14 AM »
With all of this debate recently (always) about which camera sensor is better... canon or nikon (sony)... I thought it would be an interesting exercise to see if people can actually tell which camera brand produced the image.  I welcome you to post an image and see if others can tell whether it was canon or nikon.  Post some images for the DRones out there. 

Over the years I have shot with many cameras and currently use both Canon and Nikon... So, I'll start it off...
There is serious horizontal banding in the water area -- clearly it must be Canon.

Seriously, I have always wanted to see a test like this, it will be interesting to see if people can come up with a way to tell.

28
Any thoughts?

Before 2007, Nikon didn't have FF cameras.
Even their top of the line pro model, the D2X, had a DX format sensor (1.5x crop).

So, at that time, Nikon apologists were claiming that the DX format was in fact better than FF.
One of their arguments, for example, was that FF suffers from soft corners and vignetting - and hence DX was better.

But while the apologists were arguing, pros were switching en masse to Canon.
Nikon, of course, took notice and started offering FF cameras.

Today, we have Canon apologists arguing that you don't need more DR (and resolution) than what Canon is already offering.
The situation is definitely not as bad as the DX vs FF scenario of the past but bears many similarities.

And while the Canon apologists are arguing that you don't need more DR and resolution,
my bet is that Canon is hard at work addressing these - as it will cost them dearly if they are not.


Also bear in mind that the DR debate didn't actually start whith the D800.
When the 5DII was introduced, it was very well liked and received.
Very soon, however, users started complaining about shadow noise and banding.

Thus, the so called DR debate didn't have anything to do with Nikon initially.
Instead, it was about the shadow noise and banding of the 5DII.
The D800 only added insult to injury with its high-resolution/high-DR sensor - at a time when Canon decided to reuse the same sensor, basically, in the 5DIII.

So, go ahead and brush this off as a case of 'the grass is greener on the other side' - if that suits you better.
But it's a safe bet that DR/resolution will be addressed by Canon.

That is pretty much where I sit on the issue as well.  Canon has always been known as a camera and optics company (despite the fact that originally their optics were made for them by Nikon).  It is this brand recognition that sells their other products (copiers etc.).  If one believes that Canon remains serious about the camera end of the business then you almost have to believe that they won't want to be behind the "8 ball" on performance for too long.  They are selling 12 bit cameras against Sony's 14 bit cameras -- to steal the words from an old Procol Harum song, "the news is leaking out".  I can't say when (cause I don't know) but, as you say, they will address this, of that, I am quite sure.

29
As a Nikon shooter the main complaints I see are...

1.Lack of replacement for action bodies besides the D4(no D400 or D700 mk2).

2.Issues with camera quality control.

3.Lack of new ASPC lenses.
also Lack of an answer to the 600EX-RT flash system

30
EOS Bodies / Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« on: August 31, 2014, 12:15:43 PM »
jakey, we already know this. Canon people not only here know about worse shadow noise of their cams, but they are somehow locked to Canon systems, the same as I am. But you should realize that
1) It is not only shadow noise what should drive one to buy some cam
2) that not everybody can gain from this
3) there are other aspects, body ergonomics, but also things you cannot solve. Lets say I can borrow few L lenses for free. Do you believe some Sony sensor can overpower this advantage?
4) The rest of the system is usually more expensive outside Nikon and Canon
5) It might be some time, but wait for new Canon releases, as it really is about LAST company waiting for important releases. If it does well, there is not anything wrong, they do good, and you must realize there really isn´t any reason for 99% of population to jump on new sensor with higher DR every two or three years.

That way not only I would be very, VERY happy to have Canon sensors with APS-C 36Mpx and 15 stops of DR. Would jump on it immediately, but it doesn´t happen, and Sony sensors doesn´t save me from great pain with Sony cameras.

So what is it? What do you want to hear from us? I don´t understand....

I've acknowledged all of that.

What I've observed is people making claims that aren't true, most people not being fully aware of the facts, and thinking that Nikon can't do this, or can't do that.

Jon wanted examples and I posted some.

I don't want to hear anything from you. If it's useful information, use it, if it's not, ignore it.

The one thing that is frustrating is the talk of DR.

A clean sensor is far more than just DR. It's clean RGB channels from 0-100%, rather than 0-64% as I've shown on the Mk3.

I'll wager some didn't realise that read noise issue was so prevalent, so fast.

Take the info or leave it. Isn't it better 'out there' than not?

If not, and many think that way I'll happily leave for you.
This sort of hype holds court on both sides of the issue.  We have all seen the nonsense (as in the Northrup video) where the shot is zoomed in to 100% and pushed several stops "so we can see the problem better".  Yet the resulting image would be a total mess for both cameras (if they bothered to show it).  IMO, this fits quite nicely into a paraphrased version of your statement "What I've observed is people making claims that aren't true, most people not being fully aware of the facts.  being told that Canon can't do this, or can't do that, when it clearly can when used properly".

All equipment has limitations.  Some people have figured out how to work around them, for others these limitations are unimportant.  Canon seems to have a limitation in this area, Nikon has limitations in other areas.  This is mealy a feature of the Sony/Nikon architecture. If it is important to you, go buy the equipment.  However, for many it apparently does not bring enough value to justify the cost of switching, is is just not that germane to what they do.  So the problem is basically boils down to this: 

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png



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