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Messages - David Hull

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16
Most of this DR stuff (not all of it but a great deal of it) is nothing more than hype.

I'm curious to know how many people who say that DR is mostly just hype have actually played with enough Exmor-based RAW files to really understand the differences.

There is this notion that the only thing more dynamic range offers is additional shadow pushing. That's not the case. Shadow pushing is by far the most obvious benefit, but on a normalized basis, more dynamic range improves IQ across the board. I've provides some RAW files people can download...I really encourage them to. They aren't phenomenal works of art...but they do demonstrate the differences.

I also encourage anyone who downloads to not just compare the differences at 100%. Doing that doesn't reveal as much of a difference, and that is primarily because your comparing 36mp @ 100% to 22.3mp @ 100%. That means the frequency of the finest detail elements and the frequency of noise are different. The primary difference at 100% is the shadow pushing. Once you normalize, you start to see the full benefits of an Exmor sensor...which means lower noise across the board (not just in the shadows), sharper detail, better color fidelity, etc.
I have played quite a bit with images from Sony based cameras and I am not denying the advantages that are there for certain specific applications.  When I said hype, I am really referring to the way these demos are usually presented.  Take a look at the recent bologna from Tony Northrup for example.  This sort of thing can be quite misleading IMO. 

17
You don't see those who care about the issue running around trying to subtly or not so subtly hint that the pics of those who don't care all stink do you?

Of course you see that, constantly and in no way subtly.  Not in a personal way, as in 'your photos stink'.  But, if Canon sensors have "poor IQ", deliver "sub-par/unacceptable IQ", and/or just plain "suck" (all of which are quotes from 'those who care about the issue'), that's tantamount to saying pictures taken by those using Canon dSLRs are poor, sub-par, or just plain suck.  Has it really not occurred to you that statements like 'Canon sensors deliver poor IQ' are a slam on the images of anyone using them, and how some people might just find that a little wee bit offensive?
Yep... I think you hit it right on the head.  What generally fires me up on these things is some goofball making a statement like "Canon needs to improve their IQ" as if there were a problem with Canon IQ in some general sense.  If there were any truth in that statement at all it would be evident in every image out there, which it clearly is not.  I really doubt that any one could distinguish which images were shot by which system given that they were well produced and presented in a proper blind test.

Most of this DR stuff (not all of it but a great deal of it) is nothing more than hype.

18
why don't they establish a thread specifically for this topic and leave it there.

Because this currently is the most pressing issue for about 50% of the people here. People can cope with artificially dumbed down camera software - magiclantern alleviates some of that pain. People can deal with ergonomics. People can deal with lenses - most are fine and many 3rd party alternatives are available cross platform. But people cannot deal with an image which cannot be processed in the way they like because of high shadow noise. Then they look over to their neighbor and despite all the shortcomings of the other camera systems his image shows a higher resolution and less noise. Many of us often hit this barrier.

This is not the reason why there is complaining... that will never stop... but it is the reason why this one topic is so prevalent.
Then they should simply buy the product that they want and be done with it.  What these people are really saying is that DR and resolution aren't the most important things that they need (or just WANT) otherwise they would made a switch.

19
Canon General / Re: Site trolling
« on: October 02, 2014, 11:12:36 AM »
I think there is a genuine concern that Canon sensors are no long competitive and are a generation or two behind Sony and Nikon (same sensor).  There is some minor gripping about this and that feature or mirroless offerings but the real complaint is the sensor.  When Canon had the best sensors (a long run) the Nikon fan sites were awash with similar complaints on their sites and the fanboys saying things like "12MP is all you ever need".  Same thing you are seeing now on this site.  The fanboys are saying things like "18MP is all you need". "I would never buy a camera with than many mega pixels", or "It's the glass, yeah, thats why I stay with Canon" ignoring the fact that Nikon has equally fine glass and Sony shooters have access to better stuff.  If Canon catches up the same old fanboys will be lining up to buy the best stuff and crowing about how important the big sensors are.
I think some of the Canon commenters should feel a bit vindicated by the fact that Nikon just dialed back the MP in their latest FF camera to 24.  They must have had some reason for doing that.  It wasn't to save money as the sensor will be the same parts cost.  I suspect that there were plenty of Nikon users that really had no use for 36 MP.  I think they wanted to put something closer to the 5DIII.

Nikon dialed back nothing.  Did they take their 36mp sensor off the market?????? They used a cheaper (but better than Canon) sensor so they would not compete against the 820D.  They built a camera at a price point (cheaper than Canon, more MP) so as not to cannibalize a market they already serve.  Nikon gives their customers a choice of FF sensors "36mm?  yeah, we have that..... will 24 do?  Sure, we have that too".  Canon (18, or 20 or 22....want more?  we don't have it and you don't need it....BTW we have better glass).  I will not stop saying it.  The most important component of a camera is the sensor.  Canon sensors are not as good as Nikon and Sony sensors.  CANON!! WE WANT BETTER SENSORS!!!! WE WANT WHAT NIKON AND SONY HAVE!!!!
That 24 MP sensor isn't any cheaper than the 36 MP one -- same technology, same wafer cost, same yield, same number of die per wafer -- that's how it works.  They put a 24 MP camera on the market because there was demand for better performance in terms of something other than the MP number.  I expect that a sufficient number of Nikon users wanted smaller file size and the 62% higher firing rate that comes with it.

As for your last comment, that about sums it up as far as I am concerned.  We want it because Nikon and Sony have it.  Nothing to do with better photography or any semblance of real practical need.  It is all about feature envy from what I can tell.  Here is a clue for you:  As long as all you do is bellyache on camera forums, Canon needs to take no action.  Nikon and Sony apparently make what you want so sell all your stuff and go buy what they make. If more of you mindless whiners did that (instead of all the mindless whining and forum trolling), you would [probably see more action from Canon -- money talks.

20
Canon General / Re: Site trolling
« on: October 02, 2014, 09:37:29 AM »
I think there is a genuine concern that Canon sensors are no long competitive and are a generation or two behind Sony and Nikon (same sensor).  There is some minor gripping about this and that feature or mirroless offerings but the real complaint is the sensor.  When Canon had the best sensors (a long run) the Nikon fan sites were awash with similar complaints on their sites and the fanboys saying things like "12MP is all you ever need".  Same thing you are seeing now on this site.  The fanboys are saying things like "18MP is all you need". "I would never buy a camera with than many mega pixels", or "It's the glass, yeah, thats why I stay with Canon" ignoring the fact that Nikon has equally fine glass and Sony shooters have access to better stuff.  If Canon catches up the same old fanboys will be lining up to buy the best stuff and crowing about how important the big sensors are.
I think some of the Canon commenters should feel a bit vindicated by the fact that Nikon just dialed back the MP in their latest FF camera to 24.  They must have had some reason for doing that.  It wasn't to save money as the sensor will be the same parts cost.  I suspect that there were plenty of Nikon users that really had no use for 36 MP.  I think they wanted to put something closer to the 5DIII.

21
EOS Bodies / Re: No EOS-1D X Replacement in 2014 [CR2]
« on: September 29, 2014, 10:22:26 AM »
But when?

I'm mostly curious about the 5D replacement.  Spring or not?
Didn't we just get one?

22
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon Says Higher Resolution Sensors Are Coming Soon
« on: September 25, 2014, 12:56:37 AM »
They also strongly implied that they don't care about low ISO DR and will wait until after sales tank, if ever, to bother. I think they just don't like the cost of a new fab and are doing everything to avoid it, not caring what anyone in forums says or how DxO scores look and gambling that only a few will leave and sales will keep going on as they have been for years to come even if they don't improve low ISO DR (and in other places, the word about 4k for 5D4 sounds pretty negatory as well) Oh well.

Guess it's time to look Sony/Nikon if you care about low ISO DR. It sounds like it might be a loooong time before Canon responds to Exmor. Quite a shame (again only if DR matters to you, for some it won't much)....

"One thing we know from our own testing is that Canon DSLR sensors can’t quite compete with some modern sensors from Sony in terms of dynamic range. How important to you is developing sensor technology?

We are very focused on getting the best image quality. I’m not sure what measurements you’re looking at but when it comes to dynamic range for example we consider image quality as a whole, from low to high ISO sensitivities and on balance we consider our sensors to be the best.

My ideal camera is one that can take a picture in any environment from complete darkness to the brightest sunshine.

So in your opinion your sensors are currently the best [DSLR sensors] on the market?

Yes. In the EOS 7D Mark II for example the sensor we’ve used is improved compared to the previous generation, especially at high ISO and in shadows. There’s less noise."

The fact that he has to pretend that he's never heard of DxO or any forum talk or that maybe he somehow actually hasn't heard anything in the forums or from any review sites, paints a kind of bleak picture for DR. If they had something remotely close to being ready, you'd surely think he would have responded in a much different fashion. (The only possible hopeful way to read it is that he was just saving face for the current stuff and valuing that more than being afraid of giving the impression that they were not about to move sensors forward soon.  ??? :))

 :'(

I think they may be surprised at 5D4 sales if they skip low ISO DR fixes and 4k and the only thing they give it over the 5D3 is more MP. And if they do that again for 5D5....

If you don't shoot much any low ISO high DR stuff and don't care about rescuing the odd bad shot, I'm sure the 5D4 will be great though for stills.

They also strongly implied that they don't care about low ISO DR and will wait until after sales tank, if ever, to bother. I think they just don't like the cost of a new fab and are doing everything to avoid it, not caring what anyone in forums says or how DxO scores look and gambling that only a few will leave and sales will keep going on as they have been for years to come even if they don't improve low ISO DR (and in other places, the word about 4k for 5D4 sounds pretty negatory as well) Oh well.


Could you post a link to the article you are referring to?  I read the one on DPR and it really didn't say anything like this at all.

23
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: POLL: What's more important, gps or wifi?
« on: September 23, 2014, 09:51:02 AM »
You missed another option:  Don't give a damn about either of them.

I have GPS in my Car and My phone why do I need another one in my camera.  What's next one in my shoes?

WiFi Not sure why I need that in a camera either.
Hi,
    Sometime, I also wonder this when I wear my watch... my phone got clock, my camera got clock, my GPS unit got clock and even my bluetooth earpiece also got clock, so why am I wearing the watch??? Ha ha ha ;D ;D ;D Hmm... May be the only reason I can think of why I wear my watch is that the battery life of my watch outlast all the above device as the watch had auto solar cell charging (basically will last as long as the watch is working), so if one day I forgot to charge all the above device, I still had my watch... ha ha ha

   Have a nice day.
Sometimes I have thought that same thing.  I think that the reason is that for some 50 years I have gotten used to looking at the device on my wrist for the time.  I suppose I could get used to looking at my phone for the time (I know that some people have) but I just haven't bothered.

24
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: POLL: What's more important, gps or wifi?
« on: September 23, 2014, 01:21:20 AM »
You missed another option:  Don't give a damn about either of them.

I have GPS in my Car and My phone why do I need another one in my camera.  What's next one in my shoes?

WiFi Not sure why I need that in a camera either.

25
Lenses / Re: Do you keep all your boxes?
« on: September 21, 2014, 02:13:00 PM »
I like to know if you keep all your lens boxes? I can imagine that it's useful to keep the camera box , but do you keep all the other boxes too?
Keep in mind that I am a minimalist ;)
It really depends on what you end up doing with the lenses in the long run. If you sell them eventually, it is nice to sell it with all the trimmings.  I also keep the receipt in the box in case I ever need it.

26
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Specifications Confirmed
« on: September 11, 2014, 11:20:32 AM »
Is the 70D that much behind the competition in terms if image quality? Is it really hideous compared to say a D7100, K3, Nex A6000 with much lower dynamic range, ISO performance and resolution?

I don't think so. In all the reviews they seem pretty neck to neck, with canon taking a small lead in noise and the Nikon taking a small lead in resolution.

This gives comparable image quality to all the industry, in a 10fps, 65 AF points, and all metal body. For the first time, we have a 10fps professional sports body for 1800$! That's definitely something. Nikon users have been dreaming for this camera since they had the D300.
Go look on DPR or some of the other sites at the 70D, 5DIII etc. compared to some of it's competitors and see it you see any big difference in the images.

27
EOS Bodies / Re: Apple Watch....
« on: September 10, 2014, 11:35:41 AM »
Did you folks see the new Apple Watch? http://www.apple.com/watch/

So riddle me this....  How is it that Apple can fit WiFi AND Bluetooth 4.0 on a circuit the size of a postage stamp and we can't get this built into our newer DSLRs?   ;)
Qualcomm or Apple is not building the CPU's for the cameras.  Too bad, they would have much longer battery life.

28
I, for one at least, would love to see this endless stream of new models slow down.  I like what Canon is doing which is to pop out something new every three years or so (for the high end ones at least).  In the film days, we used a camera for 5 years or more w/o feeling the need to upgrade.  The feature set in most of these things is pretty comprehensive at this point, IMO.

my $.02 anyway.

29
EOS Bodies / Re: Is Canon now two generations behind Nikon?
« on: September 03, 2014, 01:00:29 AM »
29 pages now...

My hobby is speaker building and on some audio websites, it's not unusual for threads to be 1000+ pages long.  And there we're often debating sound quality characteristics differences that are highly subjective, can't be measured, and most people don't even believe exist.  At least sensor performance can be measured.
Yes but the measurements mean about the same as they do with speakers.  Most people don't measure them, they listen to them.

30
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Guessing Game- Canon or Nikon?
« on: September 02, 2014, 11:09:14 AM »
With all of this debate recently (always) about which camera sensor is better... canon or nikon (sony)... I thought it would be an interesting exercise to see if people can actually tell which camera brand produced the image.  I welcome you to post an image and see if others can tell whether it was canon or nikon.  Post some images for the DRones out there. 

Over the years I have shot with many cameras and currently use both Canon and Nikon... So, I'll start it off...
There is serious horizontal banding in the water area -- clearly it must be Canon.

Seriously, I have always wanted to see a test like this, it will be interesting to see if people can come up with a way to tell.

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