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EOS Bodies / Re: What is the Basis of your opinion of APS-H?
« on: June 30, 2012, 02:27:44 AM »
Beg pardon, but I can muster no level of emotion when it comes to inanimate objects. I don't like or love or hate or care in any way about an APS-H sensor. And I'll bet the people at Canon will say the same thing.

I've repeatedly said there will be no more Canon EOS DSLR cameras using the APS-H sensor. It appears to me all the discussion on this board suggesting it would be good for Canon to use that sensor again is based solely on the personal desires of users. The simple and blatantly plain reality is that Canon no longer has any need for the APS-H sensor. There was a time when their EOS DSLR line was in some development flux and the H provided something useful. That is no longer the case, and Canon is happy to unburden itself from all the costs and demands of an entire product line.

Canon is in the business of providing performance. The full-frame and APS-C sensors have now come to a place where they can provide all the performance Canon needs to offer the marketplace. The development of somewhat better sensor technology, better and faster computer control, AF, memory systems, etc. have all contributed to this -- and in so have obviated the need for another line of sensor. It's good business sense for Canon to abandon the H sensor, along with all its concomitant costs -- and those costs are many.

It's probably fun for a lot of folks to pretend to be Canon product management and to fantasize about what could be done with those resources. None of that, however, factors in the realities of running a large complex business in a viciously competitive marketplace chockablock with uncertainties and the vagaries of newly developing technologies.

Anyway, big bands are definitely NOT coming back!!

Couldn't have said it better myself.

The only opinion I have about the APS-H sensor is that it is dead. That opinion is based on the actions and statements of Canon coupled with the realities of the marketplace.

Indeed, APS-H may be "better" than either full frame or 1.6 crop sensors. But, it lost in the marketplace.

Did it lose because Canon never supported it with a single lens? Did it lose because Canon put it into only a single model and then populated the bulk of its product line with a different sensor? Did it lose because other manufacturers failed to adopt it as a standard? Did it lose because the inevitable advancement of technology left insufficient room between APS-C and Full Frame? Did it lose because the majority of consumers just aren't sufficiently discerning enough to grasp the advantages? 

In the end it doesn't matter.

Of course, it is within anyone's right to disagree with my viewpoint. But, I've yet to see anyone articulate a solid financial case for the magical revival of the format. I've shaken the Magic 8 Ball dozens of times and it keeps coming up with the same answer: All signs point to No.

EOS Bodies / Re: Is SLR dead?
« on: June 29, 2012, 06:14:23 PM »
Interesting article in to-days London Daily Telegraph. Sales of digital cameras have fallen by 30% ( value)  between 2006 and 2011 and are forecast to continue downwards ( mirrored by camcorder sales) All down to smartphones and helped by fact that 25% upload to web and 33% burn to disc rather than print. The message is optical quality is of less importance, megapixels and optical zoom are dead, web services or other new capabilities are key to attracting sales....The article I assume is geared at the P&S market but it must have something to say about how firms like Canon see the market.  IMV 10 years time  - no P&S. 10 years time 2 or 3 DSLRs,  Mirrorless to rule with no entry level SLR for keen photographers.  Did you see the post the other day comparing the Hasselblad and the G10?  I have a 7D, a 5D11 and a G1x - the difference is not sensor size, IQ or DR - it's size,  fps, dof  weather sealing etc etc and a great mirrorless could take them all out

Yes. Interesting.

That's one reason why I'm not so sure companies betting on mirrorless are making the right decision. People use their smartphones because they are small and they have them with them all the time. For uploading to the web (which is about as far as the majority of photos get today and many never even get off of people's phones or cameras) smartphones are adequate and getting better.

Why would the typical smartphone user want to carry about a camera and two or three lenses? Clearly they don't.

Someone tell me who the mirrorless interchangeable lens customer is, please. Early adopters who want the latest cool gadget? I suppose tourists not wanting to be loaded down with a big DSLR, but wanting nice pictures from their trip of a lifetime might be a good market. But is that a sustainable market? And, knowing how most consumers think, they might pay $6,000 for trip but aren't going to shell out $1,000 for a camera and lenses to remember the trip by. ("I thought about it and then realized I could just upgrade my iPhone for $200.")

It seems like many who are enthusiastic about mirrorless cameras are enthusiastic about a product that exists only in their minds. Big sensor, small lenses, lightweight, clear viewfinder, high ISO, quality images, low cost. But no one makes this dream mirrorless camera. Frankly, I suspect that the ideal mirrorless camera would need to be something like Dr. Who's TARDIS: bigger on the inside than on the outside. And outside of science fiction, that's a bit difficult to accomplish.

EOS Bodies / Re: Why so many different camera bodies?
« on: June 29, 2012, 04:38:51 PM »
You all have just answered why there will be no merging of the 70D and 7D lines.

Techies may not get it (they get caught up in debates over why some cameras "deserve" a single digit and others don't). But anyone with any experience in sales or marketing sees it. The product line has to be sufficiently diverse to attract a broad range of customers, but sufficiently targeted to appeal to the individual.

Lots of Rebels with just incremental price differences for exactly the reasons Hillsilly outlined. (Rebel? Really? Andre Agassi is past 40 and retired from tennis and Canon's still calling their camera's Rebels?...oops. Got distracted by a squirrel!)

60D/70D for those who want to step up. 7D for those who want the best possible in the small sensor format. Note that the biggest price difference is between the 60D and 7D. As you go up the line, the customers get less price sensitive, so you can have a larger gap.

If the rumors about a cheap full frame prove true, that will just add one more option to the lineup. You can get a basic model with a big sensor or a fully-tricked out version with a smaller sensor, both probably about the same price.

The deciding factor is manufacturing costs. How many bodies does Canon or Nikon need to sell of a certain variation to make it cost effective to have different models? I'm guessing that with modern manufacturing processes, it's a lot fewer than we imagine.

EOS Bodies / Re: 7D Firmware officially announced
« on: June 29, 2012, 10:55:44 AM »
Then I get this email from Canon.  I mean, I kow that exaggeration is Marketing's job...but...reallly?!?   :o

Omh, this is hilarious - if this wasn't you posting the picture, I'd say it's pure sarcasm from a Nikon troll :-> ...

It is amusing. But I keep asking myself, would Canon be offering this firmware and hyping it to this degree if they were about to kill off the 7D series? These are the actions of a company trying to buy some time between upgrades, not a company about to radically reposition or dump a model.

As Neuro knows, there is all kinds of crazy talk going on in other threads. Fantasies about a new APS-H body being delivered to the masses by bigfoot riding a unicorn notwithstanding, I see this firmware announcement as an affirmation of the 7D series.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« on: June 28, 2012, 11:06:22 PM »
The level of crazy here may be reaching an all-time high.

Let's take it a step further. Instead of a some stripped-down crappy full-frame "entry level" camera, why not an APS-H entry-level camera instead? Sensor would be cheaper than full frame so Canon could undercut Nikon. Could be about the size of the 60D with similar build quality. Less processing power needed than full frame. Better frame rate, etc.

And, since we're going crazy here: designed to use APS-C lenses. (Why should physics get in our way?)

Now, even I could be interested in a body that turns my 15-85 EFS lens into a 20-110mm equivalent.  Of course, I would still want a 7DII, but I'd consider something that makes my lenses wider at the short end worth considering. Since I've already got the Tokina 11-16, it would be sweet to use it as a 14 mm with no vignetting.

Maybe it's really full frame that needs to go the way of the dinosaurs.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« on: June 28, 2012, 09:33:08 PM »
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P

Careful. That kind of candor can get you deleted around here.

Entertaining, but not gonna happen. Congrats to CR guy though. Great way to boost readership and stir up interest during the summer, while we wait for the real announcements.

probably too early but ....

how do you like your egg? :P

Whites only, infused with silver halide crystals and dried onto a glass plate please. Hold the Vegemite.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon EOS 7D Successors [CR1]
« on: June 28, 2012, 07:07:33 PM »
APSH 7DII sounds good to me

Snowcones and popsicles in hell sound good, too, and just about as likely...  :P

Careful. That kind of candor can get you deleted around here.

Entertaining, but not gonna happen. Congrats to CR guy though. Great way to boost readership and stir up interest during the summer, while we wait for the real announcements.

EOS Bodies / Re: Is SLR dead?
« on: June 28, 2012, 11:49:58 AM »
in the long run… yes

In the long run, we are all dead.

Not until you can hold the camera up to your eye and actually see what you are shooting as clearly as you can with today's SLRs.

EOS Bodies / Re: 7D Firmware officially announced
« on: June 28, 2012, 11:41:14 AM »

Good news: A very nice firmware upgrade. This should put to rest the rumors that Canon will abandon the 7D or merge with a 70D. The language and tone of the announcement are clearly meant to communicate the message that the 7D remains their flagship APS-C model. As someone has already pointed out, this is in sharp contrast to the minor firmware upgrade of the 60D. ("no microfocus adjustment for you.")

Bad news: Probably no 7DII for Photokina.

Will we see a repeat of the pattern we saw last year with the 5D? Deep discounts before Christmas to boost sales, followed by an announcement of the 7DII in the first quarter 2013.

Pure speculation on my part: I wonder if after seeing the recent sensor performance from Nikon/Sony they were taken aback a bit and decided to delay a new APS-C sensor until they could make some added improvements. "Let's upgrade the firmware and cut prices to buy ourselves six months of added R&D."

Wondering now what they do with the 70D. Does it get a new sensor? Do they give it the 7D's features but use the T4i sensor? Do they hold off on it as well? Do they care if a 70D cuts into sales of the three-year-old 7D for a few months? Perhaps they figure that the build quality of the 7D alone will be sufficient differentiation for a few months, especially if they lower the 7D price.

While I'm a little disappointed that Canon won't be taking my money for awhile longer (at least not for a 7DII, but then there are always lenses), I'm pleased that they are giving me a 7D 2.0 for free. While I'd rather have a II instead of the 2.0, I'm not going to complain and it does give me time to brace for the inevitable price hike.

EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 7D Mark II
« on: June 27, 2012, 11:35:23 PM »
We are all fanboys or fangirls here (although I suspect there are far more boys than girls, unfortunately). Some are just honest about it.

Don't misunderstand. I think the 1D IV is a fantastic camera, if a bit out of my price range. But, acknowledging a camera to be great is different from misreading the many signals from the manufacturer about the future of the format.

I may be overly optimistic about the pricing and/or features of a 7DII. But, there is some logic behind my optimism. In a nutshell, it must appeal to a market that is much more price sensitive than the 5DIII. Because the market is mature now, it must also attract current 7D owners like myself if it is to succeed. I base much of my speculation on what I believe it would take to convince me and other current 7D users to upgrade.

I commend Canon for targeting the 5DIII to a specific professional market (wedding and event photographers) and for doing sufficient market research to know that the $500 premium would be worth it to these professionals for the superior ISO and noise performance. (As an aside, the D800 seems either not particularly well-targeted, or is targeted toward a much smaller universe)

Yes, I do expect to see some improvement with the next generation of APS-C sensor. The T4i is not a new generation, but appears to rather be the same generation as existing APS-C sensors with continuous autofocus laid on top. To me, the more interesting speculation is whether the 70D will receive the same sensor as the 7DII or if it will also receive the T4i sensor.

Perhaps I am just ignorant, but I do always wonder when people proclaim the virtues of larger sensors, just what they are seeing that I am missing. I have made prints up to 18 x 27 and even with my nose inches away from the print there is no visible grain or noise. People complain about issues that I have never had a problem with (banding for example). I've read numerous posts from successful photographers who readily acknowledge that neither they nor their colleagues can identify differences between sensors in a final print.

I understand and respect the opinions of those who prefer the bokeh of a larger sensor. But, that is a question of style, not of quality.

Just what is it that is so troublesome for some photographers that they feel they cannot get a good product out of an APS-C sensor?

EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 7D Mark II
« on: June 27, 2012, 07:49:21 PM »
We will see if my mostly innocuous comments get deleted again!

7DII will be essentially identical to the 5DIII in features and build, except it will have an APS-C sensor. Many will whine and declare that Canon is "ripping us off" because the 5DIII is almost twice as expensive and it's "not fair" that a full frame sensor should cost so much more. Canon will sell millions.

70D will inherit most of the features of the 7D, but retain the 60D build quality. Many will whine because they remain unable to let go of the 40D. Canon will sell millions.

If a full frame entry level camera materializes, it will share build quality with the 60D and have autofocus and other features similar to the 5DII. Many will whine because it's not a 5DIII for half the price. Canon will sell millions.

Although the new APS-C sensor will outperform the last APS-H sensor Canon ever built, THOSE WHO CANNOT BE NAMED will continue to write endless posts about how an APS-H sensor would be so much better and will continue to hold on to the fantasy that APS-H will be resurrected from the dead and walk the earth again. Canon will sell millions (just not APS-H).

EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 7D Mark II
« on: June 27, 2012, 01:31:51 PM »
On message boards it is so easy to do this Brian.  They cannot "see" you therefore they retort whatever insults they care to because there is no personal connection or consequence.

Actually, there are several moderators who try to monitor posts, and remove those which insult users.  Rather than reply and start a flame war, its better just to report a inappropriate post.  The forum is able to keep track of warnings and that can lead to a ban, but thats not a common situation.

We try to discourage flaming others, so posters should read their posts carefully before posting.  To make things even more complex, we have different cultures represented with different perceptions and some of them may think that posts that are allowed elsewhere are acceptable here. 

There are some general rules in the site information area that we try to enforce.

Thanks for being such a good group, and be civil :)

And my posts were deleted because????

I was civil, reasoned and polite. I said nothing unkind about anyone, but simply disagreed with an oft-repeated (ad nauseam) perspective. I did not even reference belief in UFOs.

Apparently I expressed an opinion that someone didn't like.  I mourn the loss of Karma and detest this mindless censorship. (Plus much of this thread no longer makes any sense!)

Lenses / Re: Canon EF 100-400 f/4-5.6L IS [CR2]
« on: June 25, 2012, 07:46:51 PM »
I don't get the hype about this lens.  There is already a 70-300L out, which does have 100mm less, but you can get that with a 1.4x TC for cheaper than this 100-400 is supposed to be.

The 70-300, while a great lens, does not take Canon teleconverters.

EOS Bodies / Re: Need education as to Image Quality
« on: June 25, 2012, 05:43:52 PM »
I will defer to the techies on this site, but a wild guess would be that the gapless microlenses used on the new sensor might have something to do with it.

Lenses / Re: Canon EF 100-400 f/4-5.6L IS [CR2]
« on: June 25, 2012, 02:13:47 PM »
Ne pas juger tout le monde à cause des paroles d'un troll.

Urteilen Sie nicht alle, weil der mit den Worten eines Troll.

Not all Americans think the world revolves around us.

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