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EOS Bodies / Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« on: January 29, 2013, 09:59:06 AM »
I know where you're getting at, but like I said the price section isn't what I was trying to get at.

You've actually put the cart before the horse. Apple has clearly shown that price strategy comes first when figuring out model differentiation.

Take a look at any of their product lines, and you'll see they almost always have four different models with fairly uniform spacing of the price between each. They then have a similar type of overlap between product lines -- MacBook Air => MacBook Pro => iMac => Mac Pro.

The net result is that it's easy for a customer to mentally slot into a broad category of desired product, easy to figure out which model fits the budget, and then -- and this is key -- the price points are closely spaced enough for the customer to reasonably imagine stretching a bit and buying the next model up.

That is, if you want to have a laptop and your budget is $1,000, the MacBook Air is right there for you. But just $100 more gets you twice the flash ("disk") storage, an easy upsell. Or $1,200 gets you the entry-level MacBook Pro, with much more impressive specs and not all that much more heft.

Viewed from that perspective, Canon's got it pretty close to right. The Rebel line needs some cleanup; they should ditch the T3 and drop the price of the T2i and do a bit of rounding; I'd put it at T2i @ $600 => T3i @ $700 => T4i @ $1000.  When the T5i comes out, price it at $1,100 and drop the prices of the others by $100, retire the T2i, and continue that pattern. I'd drop the 60D, call the rumored 70D an 8D instead and price it at $1200. The 7DII keeps the 7D price at $1600 (and the 7D goes away), then the 6D @ $2100, drop the 5DII when stock runs out, and the pro-level stuff they can price however they want. You're then left with three Rebels and three xD models for the masses, with gradual price jumps along the way. Funky branding and pricing is probably a bit of a plus for the top end, which is why the huge leaps and lack of naming consistency isn't a problem for the 5DIII and 1Dx and anything else (like the super megapickle studio camera) that might come along.

In tabular form:

T2i : $600
T3i : $700
T4i : $1000
8D : $1200
7D : $1600
6D : $2100
(pro stuff however it falls out)



I guess I see what you're saying, but still I'm not here for the pricing. If you feel like that's more important than ok...but what I'm trying to get at is the product line. And just because there's only 4 product lines doesn't mean they can't sell the last generations product line to fall in between the price gaps, but again pricing isn't my main subject.

You still need the "cart" even with a "horse"......

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« on: January 29, 2013, 09:06:25 AM »

Making full frame sensors is expensive, that's why they cost so much.

They can make over quadruple the number or APS-C sensors out of the same wafer size as full frame.  e.g.  60D APS-C = 14.9x22.3mm = 332.27sq mm.  5D III FF =  24.0x36.0mm = 864 sq mm.   A 300mm wafer has about 70,500 sq mm.

With the number of cameras they sell, I think it's very unlikely they would see any cost savings with a single sensor design.  More likely they would lose a lot of money.

Which makes it very unlikely they would ever drop their prices as low as you're suggesting.  Realistically they'll stay the same or see a slight bump.  They'll likely try to keep the Rebel & X0D series close to the D5X00 & D7X00 series (if not slightly lower, which they traditionally are by about $100).

If they eliminated the X0D model, they are also eliminating any (semi)affordable DSLR with a good grip.

A Rebel for $600-950 vs a 7D II for $1700-2200 is a huge price difference.  It leaves a big gap for Nikon to fill w/ a $1200-1500 D7000 successor (which has a good grip & feels more solid than a Rebel).

If they don't have a 70D they have no D7000 successor equivalent & they lose all customers who think the Rebel is too small but don't want to spend 140+% more $$$ (than a X0D or D7X00) to get in a 7D successor.

If they really wanted to stand out from the pack, what they could do is increase the size of their APS-C.  All APS-C sensor are not the same size despite sharing the same name.  Canon could make a APS-C sensor that, while still smaller than full frame, is larger than Nikons 1.52X Crop factor.  That's the only way I can see them drawing out 500nm sensors.   That would create a problem w/ the current crop sensor lenses causing vignetting however, so that's unlikely to ever happen.

Unless, they could just have the camera shoot a lower megapixel crop of the larger APS-C if it detects a older crop lens is attached, and if a full frame or newer crop lens is attached then it shoots the full sensor at a higher MegaPixel.   That would be interesting.   Dollars to donuts it won't happen though.

I know where you're getting at, but like I said the price section isn't what I was trying to get at. It's the way of thinking that I am trying to show you. Most of us are use to seeing a Rebel , then a X0D, then XD, all having incremental upgrades. But instead of that, why not have a Rebel line that isn't crippled. See you're scared that Nikon will have an advantage of that middle price ground with something "similar". But think about it, no one will have anything similar to this idea I'm trying to get. This is why it's bad for us consumers when we can't tell the difference between Nikon and Canon products, no one is revolutionizing the market.

The cost of FF is expensive, but that doesn't necessarily make a product expensive. The cost of R&D and these random sidetracked "improvements" to the cameras they're doing is what's really making a camera expensive. Instead of wasting time and money with "middle ground" products they will focus on just 4 line product, which in itself will lower costs. Also think about it, if Canon stopped crippling their lines, how would you think of Canon now? A lot more people would get Canon, which in turns means Canon makes more of the Rebels which will keep cost per item lower.

Rebel would be the best entry camera, not being crippled in sensor and AF designs, but being limited by the 3 main areas I suggested. All the way up 1D which would have the MP needed for product shooters but not sacrifice the speed and noise quality everyone else would need. Think about it, people shouldn't have to choose anymore, the only reason we do is because no one is bringing or creating anything new to the plate.

You get me?

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon's Roadmap for 2013 [CR2]
« on: January 29, 2013, 12:01:44 AM »
They need to consolidate 60d and 7d. 70d 20mp 10 fps dual digic dual sd or qd/sd. 38 focus pt 19 cross center dual cross 51k Iso. only 5.6 af to keep selling superteles to those big spenders. Then bring on the 7dii with apsh and near 1 series spec priced above 6d. Everyone happy!

I don't think that would be a good idea.  There's a big price gap between them.

Many people buy the X0D model because the grip on the Rebels are too small & don't want/care about long photo bursts or full weather sealing.

If Canon doesn't have the X0D, then people will migrate to the Nikon D7x00, because it will fulfill their needs for less $$$.

I think Canon might increase the 7D II's price (like they did the 5D Mark III) because It is a pro camera.

But I don't think their Rebel & X0D will change much in price, because they compete in a very price sensitive market against Nikon (who could be considered to have the better cameras in that segment currently, especially if the D7000 successor comes out soon).
    I think opposite. Think of it like this (there's also a recent thread with this view) - If Canon stopped milking, and started Under Promise - Over Deliver they would DOMINATE the market. It is NOT a good thing when people can't tell the difference between Nikon or Canon...It means no one is revolutionizing. No one is going out of there way to make and BREAK expectations.

   If they kept the Rebel line (which is always increasing in price for some reason....) took out the X0D line. That would be all they need to start taking over when it comes to first buyers.

   They also need to start standardizing their sensors, AF, etc. Start BRANDING the company's name. Stop making spin offs of "that" sensor/AF/etc. and start making it throughout the lineup. It wastes people's time, and R&D money when they come out with a different versions to sidetrack the product.

  Basically what I'm trying to get at is this.

  4 camera Line Up:
          5D/6D Equiv
          7D Equiv
          1D Equiv

That might be hard to grasp because then you get into pricing confusion. That mainly will come because of how APS-C and FF are at the moment. The rebel will have APS-C to keep price down for sure. Then Everything else should have FF, because by now they should already have been able to figure out how to only use the center to give the reach of crop by now (I mean seriously).

People are probably wondering than how will they be different if they all have the same sensor and AF.

 3 main areas:
   1 - CPU power & efficiency + buffer
   2 - Shutter Speed
   3 - MP

So as you go up the line Rebel - 7D equiv - 5/6D equiv - 1D equiv then all three areas will get better. At this point people will ask well I don't want 50000000000+ MP because noise will increase and buffer speed will decrease....well honestly this isn't how you should be looking at it. Instead ask why hasn't there been any push to technology so that as MP increases noise and buffer doesn't get worse. Seriously the price for these equipments as much and even MORE than the best computer you can build out there.

  Pricing - This is difficult, but if either Canon or Nikon started this revolutionary way of business than they can ultimately (well somewhat as consumers are the ones that determine the price) price it to whatever they want. But let's just give reasonable prices.

  The Rebel needs to be able to have an easy point of entrance. Right now the current T4i sells for about $800 (way overpriced for what you get, that's why people still buy the T3i over it) so I say for something that will actually be VERY good and revolutionary than at most $800 for it would be better for that camera.  7D equiv $1400; 5/6D equiv $2600; 1D equiv $6000

   The pricing section isn't what I'm trying to get at, just giving numbers because I know people will ask.

Now when it comes to system updates (ie Mark ii) then things will make A LOT more sense since most of the technology is shared in the lineup. So as they improve on sensors and AF (and not incremental, but actual improvements) then all they have to do is refresh the lineup.

This will make Canon the best ever, period. Customers will know that this company won't chimp off and let them down, Canon will stop wasting money of random incremental and sidetracked R&D and FOCUS on actual "Evolution & Revlotion" products. There will be a clear difference of what you would get with Canon vs another brand.

Jonathan Liz-Fonts

Software & Accessories / Re: Which iMac
« on: January 26, 2013, 09:30:28 PM »

Thanks.  So you feel the stock i5 on the 27" is good enough.  What is the advantages of i7 then?

This might be too little info too late, but the Core i7 can hyperthread while the core i5 can not. That means the Core i7 functions as an 8 core processor, while the Core i5 functions as a 4 core processor. I'd spend the extra couple of hundred bucks on the Core i7. The Core i5 is quite old at this point, and I'm surprised Apple offers it in a newly revamped machine like the iMac.

The i5 is a great inexpensive alternative. But honestly for photo and video, just like a previous poster said, you'll the good everything. GPU should def be atleast 1GB. You can definitely get by with the i5 if you don't have the money after getting the GPU, but if you can, get both.

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: EOS-1D X Firmware 1.2.1 in the Wild
« on: January 22, 2013, 08:50:16 AM »
EG-S support? :)

Why can't people use Live View? 1Dx has the best AF system in the game, do people really want to compromise that over not wanting to use LV?

If they lowered battery prices, that would make the counterfitting business unprofitable, and they might actually make a larger profit by selling a lot more batteries. 
Somewhere there is a price point that would achieve this, apparently, Canon thinks they have the price point now, but I see it as being more like overpriced music and videos, many more would purchase them rather than illegally copying them if the prices were reasonable.

OT: $12-14 for an album is way more than reasonable.

But yes, sometimes I feel like their batteries are overpriced, it's not like they're revolutionizing the battery world either.

Canon General / Re: refurbished Canon 5d mk iii
« on: January 13, 2013, 08:17:54 PM »
You bought a $3,500 camera for $2,200 and you're worried about the effect your $1,300 savings will have on the camera's resale value? Is that what you're saying?

Nope, I'm wondering if I will be able to sell it and how much I actually could get for it when I do. 

On the price side, the camera is occasionally on sale for less than $3500 and you can get it bundled with printers and lenses that you could sell and bring the cost way down (but that is a hassle).  So, I see the price of new as more like $2900.  The refurb is a good deal, but if it has no resale value or resale market does it matter?

No it doesn't matter. Not trying to be rude, but you saved a lot. It works and you will be able to do great things with it. To answer your question, yes there is a market for it. I would buy a used camera that was reburished. The difference from selling it would be less than buying a New and selling it. So you have a good deal, don't stres out too much, actually don't stress out at all.

Canon General / Re: refurbished Canon 5d mk iii
« on: January 13, 2013, 08:04:25 PM »
Would you buy a used-salvaged-car? Some people will have no problem buying it. And there are people(like me), would never buy a used-salvaged-item

For resale value, I doubt you will get same value as normal camera.

A refurb is not equal to a salvaged vehicle though. It's a certified used car, and in those terms than you wouldn't have any problem selling it, and it would be better in the long run cause you lose less difference from New to Used vs Used to Used...

Why doesn't my tractor taste like an apple when i bite it?

Why can't my leathrman include a two week holiday to spain?

Why can't a dslr behave like an action cam?

Somebody here is being very silly, and I'm sure it isn't me.

 ;D I knew stamping "4K" on the GoPro and the high framerates would spawn threads like this.  Someone was whining earlier that there is no excuse for all DSLR's to have 4K because the GoPro does, as if it were comparable to a RED or something.  I got my Hero 3 yesterday and believe me, the 4K looks like complete garbage and was obviously added to fluff the specs.  The IQ from a 7D is far superior, that being said it's not really a fair comparison, two totally different cameras.

It's still 4k nonetheless, you quote "stamping" like it's not technically. It's a great small camera, that is capable of 4k. The size difference in sensors makes a big factor, but what if you had a sensor 4times larger than RED, would you label RED as "stamping" 4K? Just saying.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
« on: December 21, 2012, 12:16:12 AM »
Doesn't it come down to the fact that Canon can't MAKE a company sell their product to a specific price..

Canon General / Re: Is it worth it...for me?
« on: December 06, 2012, 01:41:43 PM »
Thanks for all the replies!

  Just clearing some stuff up: I only use a Sigma 30mm F1.4....the 17-55 was rented for a week where I wanted to record my cousins wedding. Link to video  - it has spanish background music just to warn you.

  But yea, so in terms of lenses, the sigma is always on the camera, the only other lens I have is the kit 18-55 which has stayed in my bag for idk how long.

  I have researched hundreds of hours already online, and I think that's why I'm progressing as quickly as I am. I also am taking a basic digital photo class to make sure I have all of my basic foundation grounded. I will be taking another photo class next semester and even join the universities photo club as suggested.

Personally, I would rather the gear I'm using not get in the way of learning.  It's hard enough to control light, create good composition, pose the model, communicate to the model, make them comfortable.  If you have to add the complexity of trying to use a gear a certain way because of it's limitation, well, that's not fun anymore.  Here's an example of the gear getting in the way

   This is the whole reason why I am trying to invest in new gear. I know my limitations, and I'm to a point with my current body where I just "feel" like I need more coverage in what I want to do. I ALWAYS shoot in manual M mode. Like when I mean always, I mean it, cause there are times where once I switch to Av I get lost and have to reteach my self "ok, Ev Comp, change it with...this dial to get....this image". I installed ML to get me more stuff to mess around with in my menu, and I feel like that's not enough sometimes.

At minimum get a body that supports AFMA ...

Haha, yea trust me, I'm always second guessing myself if the lens needs it or not. Camera with AFMA would be nice.

I like your photographs especially your black and white work. I would seriously consider starting to work with off camera flash and spend your winter perfecting throwing light on to your subjects. I might even buy two flashes (since money is not holding you back) and get both off your camera. I bought a set of Cactus V5 triggers because the price was right and they seem to work ok for manual work. 

Thank you! and I am thinking of buy the 430 EX II. I did play around with the on-camera flash settings (thank ML too for given me more control of the flash) and for my last couple of photos have been using a white sheet of paper to give me SO MUCH better and softer light to the subject.  But yea, I think if anything an off-camera flash would be my next purchase.

 Oh and it's not that I love taking portraits, I just like the experience of it, and with my school and work hours, its hard to get a chance to walk around in the day to get some different pictures.

Canon General / Re: Is it worth it...for me?
« on: December 02, 2012, 03:12:05 AM »
Haha true about the family stuff! Now of course I'm assuming the way you should think I go is the lens first then body? I definitely will get a FF camera one day, I feel like I need the ISO capabilities cause I never even push past 800 on my t3i, I just don't feel comfortable.

I was thinking the 85 on the crop would be a nice reach for sports and then once I get a FF it'll be a nice portrait, but I definitely lean towards the 50mm being a nice portrait length on camera then a nice normal on FF. The thing that bugs me is the back focus issues? but I would be shooting wide open usually anyways which I hear isn't an issue than.

Could you also help me out with understanding why people choose only to AF with the center point only?
And leading into that, another reason why I would definitely like a new body is cause I hate how it feels like my t3i AF system isn't reliable at all, well not at all but not to my tastes, I sometimes just switch to live view, zoom and MF to my spot if I have the time.

Canon General / Canon - Quick Thoughts & Talks
« on: December 02, 2012, 02:08:12 AM »
Do you think Canon would be better off by stopping over saturating their product line, I get so turned off with all the choices. I really wish they would just have four DSLR, all with the same sensor IQ or close. Lower and Higher ends of Crop and FF, mainly low FPS vs high FPS and have standard specs. I don't want to theorycraft but just saying.

P.S. No trolling but that Sony RX1 really really interests me for some reason. Yes I like an optical viewfinder and Canon in general but I really don't mind a fixed lens with a camera like that which looks like it takes amazing IQ photos. Any thoughts? Please don't try to troll me, I am just honestly asking.

Canon General / Is it worth it...for me?
« on: December 02, 2012, 02:01:58 AM »
Quick Bullet Post:

Body: Canon T3i
Lens: Sigma 30mm F1.4
No Flash


I am not a professional at all. I only started in July and even though people around me are saying I'm progressing pretty quickly, I feel like I still can't really get photos that appeal me and match my vision. Also with my lack of experience I have trouble picturing the shot sometimes. My favorite photos are the one of my girlfriend in my Flickr page.

Now, when it comes to having money in my account, it means I will spend it tomorrow >.< I am trying to save for a new lens. The ones I'm currently looking at is the 50mm F1.2 vs 85mm F1.2. Currently leaning towards the 50mm, and I know the 1.4 is cheaper, but I like to shoot at those wide apertures and hear that the 1.4 isn't sharp open, but if you can really convince me to get it instead please do.

The thing is that I want to get a FF camera as well, probably 5D3 just cause I like the more AF points as I HATE focus + recompose and I can't understand how so many people ONLY use the center point, it really doesn't make sense to me. So in a sense within a year I'm already thinking about spending about $5000 in new gear.

With my photos do you feel like it's a logical decision? I mean I don't mind taking a chance and spending money but I also want to be mature into this decision and ask you guys who many of you might of gone through this or have expert opinions about this. I know I need more experience but it would be nice in a sense to have better gear to motivate me, which I might really need since Minnesota gets so dark so early now.

Sorry bout the long winded post but I put a lot of energy into this hoping I would get the same in return. Also if you do recommend another lens, I would honestly like a prime better than a zoom only for the reason that I don't have to worry about deciding what focal length I should be on, I just want to get the exposure and shoot.

Btw, just incase I might go to hockey games this winter just so I can get SOME sport shots, it's like the only thing I feel like I can capture in the winter with my school and work schedule. I do like portraits and night time or indoor low light photography. 

Thank you in advance!

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