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Messages - kyamon

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Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 09, 2013, 01:41:18 PM »
Interesting point - but I always assumed that cheap inks also have drawbacks with regards to longevity, resistance to sunlight etc.

Third-party inks, as a rule, are less expensive than manufacturer-branded inks...but they're not all cheap. Lyson, for example, makes some very, very good inks, including a number of printer-specific alternate inksets that are superior in every way to what the manufacturers offer for those particular printers.



Good to know, thanks.

Lenses / Re: Is there any chance this is legit?
« on: April 09, 2013, 01:19:45 PM »
There is nothing wrong with posting on multiple sites at the same time, right? And the different languages might explain the bad english on Craigs list... ;)
But the guy must have a huge back yard... If I had an 800 mm I would use it indoors only. It would help me see my children better - they always sit half-way down our dining table when we have dinner. And to see my wife I would get a 1200 with tc.


Quick image search shows these images being used on other auction sites.

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 09, 2013, 01:04:55 PM »
Just for the record - I had a look at the ICC profiles from Ilford.
GSPP12 and GSPP11 are identical (for all I can tell) - makes sense since the supposed difference is only the thickness of the paper, but the paper is otherwise the same. What surprises me more is that they date from 10/2009.
This gets me back to the question what these are good for if each software produces a different result in print, even though the same printer/paper profile has been used...

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 09, 2013, 12:58:33 PM »
I may have missed it in reading this thread, but do you have the "Soft Proofing" box checked in the LR4 Develop module with the correct paper profile selected under "Create Proof Copy" ?  It is pretty clearly noticeable on my NEC Multisync PA241W monitor that my monitor image turns darker when I activate the Soft Proofing box. 

I am having pretty good monitor to printed image matching up on my Epson Stylus R1900 - but I do have to adjust Brightness and Contrast in the Print module to get a close match -- and the level of Brightness/Contrast needed varies between paper profile selection.  LR4 remembers the last settings you printed with for each profile and comes up when you go into Print module for printing after you select the appropriate paper profile above.

Tony M

Thanks, Tony. I had not used the soft-proofing in LR, and you are right, the difference is considerable. What it does is that it seems to remove some of the color saturation when I check the soft proof box, but what remains is the excessive red in the prints.
I had played with the brightness/contrast settings in the print module, and I can get the print to look better in terms of colour. But I do get the feeling that the photo becomes softer in general.

Is it possible that my dark test-photo is just a particularly hard case? The Pixma Pro 9000 MII is known to not perform great with B/W, so could it be that it just isn't so great as soon as there is a lot of black (or dark) involved? How does the printer produce a black point? I noticed with these tests that even though an estimated 10-20% of the photo are "black", the black cartridge was only used by about 1/5 or less, while I went through almost an entire magenta (the M, not the PM). I presume it uses a lot of that for the brown hair and the skin tones, but that much?

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 09, 2013, 11:26:41 AM »

Another side benefit of buying your own spectro to create your own profiles is that you will be able to use 3rd party ink and paper (only the good quality ones of course). The money you'll save will more than make up the initial cost of the spectro, believe me.

Interesting point - but I always assumed that cheap inks also have drawbacks with regards to longevity, resistance to sunlight etc.

In any case, thank you all for the interesting answers and suggestions I sure have a lot to try and play with now!

I did manage to obtain the missing ink, so I continued a few tests. The comparison between prints from LR, PS, and EPP is really astonishing - after seeing this I really wonder what the point of an ICC profile for a specific paper/printer combo is if the software in the end does what it feels like anyway! (on a side note - for the Ilford 4x6 paper I am using, which is 310 micron, the ICC is GPSPP12, not 11.)
The picture I was using yesterday most of the time (dark portrait, brown hair and a moderately pale face) turned out too dark in all three programs. Differences are barely noticeable, details in the hair are lost because it gets too dark, and the face turns red. The print is basically useless.
I now tried a different pic, this time a bird sitting on a black PVC tube with a green/white bg (completely oof). Here, the difference between print and screen are considerably smaller, making it in the end really only an issue about adjusting the settings to match where the photo will ultimately hang. If I compare PS, EPP, and LR with this pic, I see interesting color tone differences, in particular on the PVC tube. Ideally this should be dark-grey'ish, and what PS gives me looks pretty close. In contrast, EPP produces something that is almost purple while LR is slightly on the greenish side. But the differences are so small that I would probably not see that unless I have the prints on top of each other. Someone with a better-trained eye might notice (and unfortunately I can not quantify any of what I just said). But it certainly is something I could live with.
The problem is, of course, that I also have the other type of photos, and that with the current settings I just know that some types of prints come out bad.

I guess what this comes down to is a confirmation of what some of you said - in order to get things right one has to do it manually, with or without the help of a spectrometer. Very disappointing.
Just for fun I tried something new - I printed something directly from my camera, using PictBridge. Much to my relief it did not appear to produce better results ;) (who uses that anyways?)

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 08, 2013, 06:17:06 PM »
My wife knows that any time I complain about some technical aspect of my photos I am going to spend money... But in this particular case even a $2k screen or a Pro-1 printer would not do the job, I guess. So I did like you did, and switched to indecent language. And asked for help... (which I got, and am very glad about)

i have also found that creating my own custom ICC profiles for the papers i use much more reliable than using each manufacturer's canned ICC profiles. the canned profiles will get you close, but if you have exacting expectations then you really need to create your own custom profiles.

i use the Color Monkey by X-rite to do both screen and print ICC profiles. it does a fairly decent job but i have never....NEVER....been fully satisfied with any print that has ever come out of an inkjet printer. there is always something that is just slightly off...but i end up just chalking it up to differences between the two different formats or the random and frequent printer errors that occur.

i absolutely loath desktop printing...its a horrendous task to undertake if you have the highest expectations. trouble is, making a print is ingrained upon my consciousness as "part" of the photographic process. my wife knows when i am doing prints by the stream of expletives coming from my office and she knows to steer clear of me for a few hours.

anyway....good luck. seriously.....

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 08, 2013, 06:02:54 PM »
Yep, I will do that and report back. I have no clue though, how long it will take me to get the missing cartridge - I am in Switzerland and the shops I went to today do not have particularly large selection of photo-specific ink :(

About the XPS - these are windows printer drivers, right? I am using a mac, and I believe that I do have the right driver installed. But I will double-check that as well.

Try the EPP Plug-ins when you can and follow the link I posted on how to select the appropriate ICC profile for your paper inside the utility. Make sure you install the XPS driver if you are wanting to print RAW files from LR or else you will have to convert to 8-Bit TIFF prior to print. The XPS Driver will print 16-bit color files, which the regular driver will not. Easy Print also works inside of Photoshop & would strongly recommend using it for all printing to the Pro 9000.
I was so upset when I first bought mine and colors came out all dark, oversaturated and blah. But Easy Print definitely shows what the printer is capable of producing. Just don't expect miracles with B&W prints as they are definitely the weak spot of this printer.
If you do a bit of research, people say you can get the same results out of Photoshop & LR without EasyPrint, but Color accuracy is a huge part of my job and even I couldn't make them come out quite the same straight from PS & LR.

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 08, 2013, 05:38:22 PM »
Sure, nothing is absolute. But it makes sense to have a setup where I know that I get a certain correspondence if I prepare a picture on my screen and look at the printed version at the same desk, with the same light. Any modification I can take from there. If I have to make my picture look wrong on my screen to look right on the print (looked at under the same conditions), then it gets too complicated for me.

So what I am looking for is pretty much what you are telling me to do. Except that I have set the screen brightness low (as it has been suggested here), the screen is properly calibrated, the ICC profile for printer/paper are correct, etc. I simply can not find the issue.

But I have not yet tried EPP. I have the plugin installed now, so I hope to be able to test it soon.

I would also like to add (the obvious?) that "dark", as I initially chose it, is not a particularly accurate characteristic. There is, of course, much more to it like saturation or contrast etc. If I put the print under a bright light it looks brighter, but it still does not look like the photo on the screen. Same if I turn the screen brightness down.

What do you want a reference point to?

There are no absolutes in colour management, you can set "your" reference point anywhere you want. If you want your current screen calibration and luminosity to be your reference point and your prints are dark you need to put more light on them. If the luminosity of your screen and a piece of paper next to it (preferably in a viewing booth) are not the same you need to adjust the brightness of one or the other. Once you have that dialed in, along with screen calibration, if your prints are not the same as your screen then you are looking at printer/paper profiles, assuming all your colour workflow settings make sense.

Start at the beginning, how bright do you want your screen, take everything else from there.

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 08, 2013, 05:01:53 PM »
Yes, this is set correctly. If the printer does the color management then the prints look way worse even!

I have a question about the comparison between Lightroom and Easy-Photoprint (which I have never used). In lightroom I can use the Ilford ICC profile that matches my paper. In Easy-Photoprint I don't seem to have this option, I can only tell it that I am using matte photopaper... Am I missing something? If this is correct, then the comparison with LR does not work since the issue could be with LR or with the ICC...

I haven't used my Canon printer (it was a pretty cheap one)for a while, so I can't speak directly to Canons, but I know with Epson, when you go to print there are options about color management.  You have to make sure the printer is set not to do any color management, so that LR can manage everything.  I always print with perceptual intent, an appropriate ICC profile loaded, and color management on the printer turned off.  If you don't turn the color management on the printer off, it doesn't come out right. You may already know that, so hopefully i'm not wasting your time.  I thought it might be a good thing to check, though,  if you hadn't thought to yet.

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 08, 2013, 04:50:14 PM »
hard copy to 4x6 works if it is the same paper. have tou tried easyprint pro plugin for L4. i may help.

Good idea. Will try that as soon as I can.
Does Adobe use the same print engine in all its software? If I print from Photoshop will I have the same issues as in Lightroom?

The print profile is from the Ilford website, for my paper/printer combination (and downloaded today...). The issues I have at the moment have been mainly on the small 4x6 prints, but also on the 5x7 version of this paper. THe 4x6 is a bit heavier, and Ilford provides a different profile for it, but I have always been comparing the same things.

Privatebydesign: Your point about the lighting is a good one. What I want, however, is a reference point. And I want that to be my screen and the photo that I take from the printer which is located next to the screen. From there I can then decide if I make a photo brighter or darker, depending on where it will hang. And at the moment the difference is simply too big. Granted, the photo that I have been using as a reference is a fairly dark portrait. It is dark on screen, and when printed it becomes completely useless.

Somehow I also have a weird feeling about ink usage - I had a warning that my PM ink cartridge was almost empty and that I should replace it. I had no replacement, and it was only _almost_ empty - could this lead to color distortions? I would find this quite bad, but is it possible at all? By now it is completely empty, and the printer refuses to print (which is what I would expect...)

Software & Accessories / Re: Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 08, 2013, 02:21:04 PM »
Thank you for the tip. I tried that just now, and with the screen set to 80 cd/m2 or less the darkness indeed looks better. However, the photo now again looks like it got a bit too much red. Is this a saturation issue or is it really red only that I get too much of?
I indeed made lots of test-prints today, using 4x6 paper. As a result, I ran out of one of the inks :( Will have to wait a couple of days now before I can make more tests, but I have a number of prints where I played with the settings in "print adjustments" (bottom options in the print section of LR4). But these do not really have the desired effect and seem to reduce the overall quality of the print.

Is the brightness why many pro's do not like apple monitors? Or is it because the calibration does not work properly?

Software & Accessories / Pixma Pro 9000 II prints are dark
« on: April 08, 2013, 12:50:04 PM »
I have a problem with calibration for print...
My prints always come out much darker than they appear on the screen. I realize that this is a general problem that is treated a gazillion times online, but to the best of my knowledge I do things right. Yet this is obviously not the case, and I am wondering where my problem might be - any help is greatly appreciated.

So, here is what I have and do:
1. Pixma Pro 9000 Mark II, using only original ink cartridges
2. Imac 24", running LR4
3. Mostly Ilford Galerie Prestige Smooth Pearl with the according ICC profile (re-downloaded today)
4. Screen calibrated using Spyder4Pro
5. I do not have an ideal workspace with some outside light hitting my screen directly (but turning it away changes nothing).
6. Don't know if that matters, but I shoot mostly with a 7D, now also with a 5Diii, 95% raw; raw conversion, PP, and printing all in/from LR.

I don't print regularly (ambitious amateur), but I was never happy with what I got back from commercial printing services, so I decided to get myself a good printer. At first this worked out nicely, and the prints matched the screen well. But since a few months ago this is not the case anymore. Right around the time when I purchased the first boxes of paper after Ilford had changed the packaging of the Smooth Pearl paper, my prints started showing too much red (could be a saturation issue, or something else?). This now magically solved itself, but instead they look a lot darker than on the screen. For all I know the paper itself did not change with the packaging, nevertheless the dates almost coincided... The SpyderPro was sort of my last hope before getting a new screen and office, so I purchased that today. Unfortunately It made not enough of a difference (it did make one, but not enough).

My prime suspicion is the imac screen (I found online that these screens are not ideal), or my workspace. Are there other, simpler things that I should first try?

Many thanks in advance

Canon General / Re: European travel?
« on: April 04, 2013, 02:57:30 AM »
Here is the link to the type of pass I meant:
But this is for all of Switzerland, so most likely you will not need that since you already have the city-city tickets. Since I live here I have never gotten this (it is only for non-residents). Within cities in Switzerland you should probably get day-passes as you need them. They often are valid for 24 h (as opposed to calendar days), so depending on your schedule you can use one for two days... And they normally cost around as much as two single fairs.
But I think you will find yourself to do a lot by walking, too. The cities you mention (except for Paris) are relatively small, and you can easily do most things by foot (unless, of course, you carry 20 kg in photo equipment... :) ).

If you have the time (and like mountain valleys and alpine landscapes) you should also consider going to the Engadin (where St. Moritz is, you might know that) in the south-east of Switzerland. This, and the valley connecting to it in the south (called Bergell) are most amazing places. It would take you around 3 hours to get there by train (or car - renting one might be good at least for this kind of trip, but then you would miss out on an amazing train ride) from Zurich, and in good weather it is absolutely worth it!

English will be fine. Maybe you should take your 70-200 after all, that way people recognise you as a tourist more easily :)

(and, btw, when you are in Munich you might want to consider going to Neuschwanstein, about 2 hours by car from Munich. This IS the disney-castle, so it might be nice...)

Canon General / Re: European travel?
« on: April 03, 2013, 03:17:51 PM »
Good plan! (I live in Switzerland...)
some of this has been said already, but maybe I can still add some infos... Depending on the duration of your trip you should do as much as possible by train. The system throughout Europe is great, and if you book in advance you can get good deals. Within Switzerland you can get a general ticket that is valid on all trains, as well as public transport in all cities. Most boats on the major lakes are also included or at least give you a discount if you have this ticket. As a tourist you can get it for a reasonable price (check, the site of the national railway company). Special trains like the one up to the Jungfrau Joch are not included but might give you a discount.
For general travel in Europe the train is also good, but is often more expensive than flying. But it is way more relaxing and lets you see the gradual changes of landscape and people as you travel from Geneva to Munich and Prague.
I recommend you also go to Berlin. This really is a phenomenal city with A LOT to offer, whatever you desire.

Aside from the mountains in Switzerland you will find quite pretty, old medieval town centers; Zurich, Bern (there are several more in Switzerland since it did not get bombed in WWII), Prague, and Paris - there in particular the Marais - are nice. Munich is missing that to a large extent (for obvious reasons), but still has some nice corners. The English Garden is very nice, and around the Odeon and Marienplatz you will find pretty spots.
The lakes in Switzerland also offer a lot for photography. Lake of Zurich, lake of Lucerne (and Lucerne itself), lake of Geneva in particular. If you are in Zurich you should go up to the √úetliberg from where you will have a great view over the town and lake of Zurich. There is a small train going up, otherwise it is a very short hike.
In Berne, if the weather is good, go to the University (which is very central, near the train station). It is slightly higher than most of the rest of the city and gives you a spectacular view of the alps.

As a last tip - if you take the train from Bern to Geneva make sure you sit on the left side (looking in the direction the train is moving) and have a window seat (top floor if it is a double decker train). If the weather is good you will have a breathtaking view when the train reaches the lake.

 I don't know how long you are planning on staying in Europe, but each of the places you mention deserve at least a couple of days, Paris probably a week (Berlin as well) at least...

And about the equipment - I tend to agree with what the others say... Even though I have, in fact, seen people with big white lenses (including myself :) ) I don't think there is a need for the 70-200 or any of the extenders. Wide is nice since there will be lots of opportunities for landscapes but you will not need much on the long end. And in the worst case there are rental places where you can just pick something up :)

Third Party Manufacturers / Re: Yeah, that is the future......
« on: April 01, 2013, 03:11:23 PM »
It's cold fusion, redux.  Speaking of redux, plug Baceolus into your favorite Latin translator...

Or try Dr. Parc with a mirror... Or dr. Lirpa...

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