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Messages - Neutral

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31
And here is an  example of RX1  DR range – shadows recovery at iso50

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Downloaded and checked RX1 raw files from DPReview  -  image IQ is so good  – nothing comparable I believe in such form factor and beating out  many FF DSLRs.
  Here are snapshots for iso50, iso1600 and iso3200 from Capture One screen using Win7 snippet tool (C1 7.01 already has preliminary support for RX1). No adjustements - C1 default setting.

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This is just awesome, I applaud you sony.

+1 Absolutely. SOny might have some odd "standards" but they showed a long time ago that they are SERIOUS about digital photography, and back in the day I had ALL the dsc-p# cameras from Sony, (P10 my absolute favorite) Sync flash at 1/1000s and of the very best looking cameras around. Plus they were about 50 million times faster than the Ixus's.

Sony, you might not be best at everything, but you have the biggest balls and push everyone  else and always go where no concervative Canon or Nikon man will go. Awesome!!! I've been waiting for FF (digital) compact since, hm, ever?

Glad  to see that there are number of people who understand what it is all about in general prospective.
  It was my dream as well to have compact high quality FF mirrorless camera with one of the best lenses so that I could always carry it with me.   And I am very glad to see that achievement from Sony.  It could be  very good complement to the 1Dx – I can use 1Dx for specialty shoots using different telephoto  lenses and RX1 as second camera with normal fixed lens – so I do not need to bother to change lenses on 1Dx when I need wider angle lens and  high quality image.
  To my view this is kind of conceptual camera to show what Sony is capable of now and I think their goal is to show their technologies in action thus putting milestone in digital cameras evolution. Sometimes this is more important than making profit at the very beginning.   Similar to what goldminers were doing in Alaska at earlier times   - putting marks that they reach this territory ahead of others and this is their territory.   Also to do all that in compact body is much bigger challenge and costs more than to do the same in the body which is twice or even more bigger .  Also big challenge is lens optic design for short distance between lens and FF sensor so that all light is fully captured by sensor pixels - to ensure  that light rays are fully orthogonal to the sensor surface at any pixel location on the sensor. And for faster lenses  this is much more difficult than for slow lens. Also this is lens with lens shutter - which is more  common for MF lenses  than for FF lenses (e.g. Schneider Kreuznach  leaf shutter lenses for Phase One 645dDF+ system http://www.phaseone.com/en/Camera-Systems/Leaf-Shutter-Lenses.aspx). Only this one is a big difference itself . Also low light performance should be at least 1/3 better than for new Sony A99 as there is no translucent mirror between lens and sensor.
 For me they just captured industry trend (pretty much that is something that you could “feel” in the air) at early stage  and embodied that in RX1.  And  long term evolution vector is towards mirrorless FF cameras with high quality phase detection AF directly on the sensor.   Technologies are already here.  It is now just matter of time and money to put all that in production.  I am sure that in some near  future we will see  number  FF mirrorless compact  cameras having phase detection AF  points all over the  frame  and not only in central area of the frame.
  I think that in some  time we will see pretty interesting review of this camera from Michael Reichmann on www.luminous-landscape.com. There is also already one availble on dpreview - http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-cybershot-dsc-rx1/

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EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: Too much dynamic range?
« on: November 25, 2012, 11:46:29 AM »
DR is like USD - the more you have - the more you want    :)
 More DR like more USD gives more freedom and reduces dependencies on different circumstances and this in turn allows to get desired more easily and much  quicker.

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EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 16, 2012, 10:12:21 AM »
Neutral have you tried mixing this with other HDR techniques? say -2EV and +2EV then using enfuse to blend
so a total of 27 shots? 3 combined super clean files blended together I think there is lots of potential with adapting this technique. Thanks for the find I cant wait to give it a go
I did not try that  but I think this could be very interesting.
Known issue for HDR is increasing image noise.
So having virtually noise free images from camera using ME could help get cleaner and better HDR images. When I look at some HDR images posted around I frequently want to take wet tissue and wipe that noise away as this is causing pain for my eyes)))
Lr enfuse doesn't make eye rending abominations like photomatix it takes the exposures and blends them so no noise gain anyway. I suspect in combination with your method it will enable some super clean files
I think this will definitely work as expected.
Will try that as well when have chance to do so.

36
HDR - High Dynamic Range / Re: Problems with Noise in Dark Areas
« on: November 16, 2012, 06:08:05 AM »
....
  HDR is as much an art as any other technique.  Use it, don't abuse it.
Exactly, frequently we see just opposite  :(

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EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 16, 2012, 03:35:59 AM »
Neutral - thanks for the in-depth explanation - I'm anxious to try out your ME method...
As a matter of fact this is not my method  :)

This technique  was being used around for decades in different areas.

  I just was not very happy with 1Dx low ISO SNR performance  (as I like night/evening shooting)  and when saw that ME function in 1Dx – my first thought was that this could be workaround until we get new rumored Hi-Res camera that should bring some new sensor technologies.  I was tempting to buy Nikon D800 but thought that I can wait and do something with 1Dx.   

 Actually Multi-Exposure term is coming from old film times when in order  to mix together several  images you had to do multiple exposure from different frames on the same piece of photo paper.
Same functionality was main goal of introducing ME in digital cameras – and one of the application of this to catch phases of object movement in one shot - but there are also many other interesting artistic applications for that

Noise averaging using ME for improving SNR is just very useful side effect of this functionality.

And the other side effect which is also very useful -  is to simulate ND filter for long exposure.
Using ME method one will be getting much cleaner images than using ND filter to reduce amount of light into camera sensor.
If both are combined together (ND filter and ME method) you can get very interesting artistic effects due to ability to have very long exposures at day time.  I did not tried that yet but going to do so at some time.

38
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 16, 2012, 02:39:39 AM »
Neutral have you tried mixing this with other HDR techniques? say -2EV and +2EV then using enfuse to blend
so a total of 27 shots? 3 combined super clean files blended together I think there is lots of potential with adapting this technique. Thanks for the find I cant wait to give it a go
I did not try that  but I think this could be very interesting.
Known issue for HDR is increasing image noise.
So having virtually noise free images from camera using ME could help get cleaner and better HDR images. When I look at some HDR images posted around I frequently want to take wet tissue and wipe that noise away as this is causing pain for my eyes)))

39
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 16, 2012, 02:32:56 AM »
So I activate mirror lock just  before ME shot sequence  (done automatically after camera focused on the subject)  and then deactivate it after ME shot sequence  (using SET button - selectable option in mirror lock function) or it is deactivated itself later by camera itself .
Unfortunately this is not supported by my 5DMkIII that's why I was wondering how you can do that. So it's only Live View for me  :(  (OK I know it is sufficient and actually a super set of Mirror Lock for this purpose but still ...)
  Actually mirror lock is not required – just an option to get better image sharpness – reducing camera vibrations and preventing refocusing for each ME shot in sequence.
If for first one nothing could be done with 5DM3 but for second one it is possible to focus automatically then switch lens to manual focus to keep focus unchanged during  ME sequence
Mirror lock is required for sharpness. There is no point in trying to lower the noise merely to induce camera shake. But is is achieved with LiveView. Anyway for shots on tripod - when it is getting dark - I use Mirror Lock and 2 second delay. Focusing is either AF and then turned to manual or Live View (with manual focus and 10x). So the only additional function is the Multiple Exposure (Mirror is Locked in LV).
I could not imagine that 5DM3 does not have similar as 1Dx option to keep mirror locked up for 30 seconds with early deactivation by SET button.
That’s good that you found a way for 5DM3 to keep mirror locked during ME sequence.
With that 5DM3 could have an edge over 1Dx for such kind of ME night/evening shots due to better sensor resolution.
   The only one thing I do not understand why Canon did not  do that as F/W feature with single button press as done in some other cameras (e.g. upcoming Sony DCS-RX1).  This is so simple to add that in F/W to give user easy way to cope with deep shadow noise issues at ISO100 for 1Dx and 5DM3.  They know the problem they know (I hope) how to deal with that so why not to make life easier to camera users who like night/evening shooting.
  It would be also interesting to see outcome of this noise averaging method on Nikon D800.
D800 could have up to 10 shots in ME sequence.  Combined with camera 36mpx sensor resolution and high DR outcome using this method could be really amazing (with good Hi-Res lens)

40
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 16, 2012, 02:30:00 AM »
Neutral - thanks for the in-depth explanation - I'm anxious to try out your ME method.

BTW - my 1DX is my first 1 series camera - I'm loving it but there is a learning - it's threads like yours that I find helpful - inspired me to register at canonrumors. Thanks again. :)
Thanks for good words :)
My pleasure ))
 This is just illustration to what I was telling several times in some other posts – instead of useless arguments over subject(s)  that some most involved have no ideas or knowledge – better do something useful for others if you can do that )))
  And this was the reason I join forum recently – I got very tired of reading all that heated disputes about DXO sensor measurements  between people who do not understand that at all and wanted to show how  simple MATH is applied to real life.

41
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 16, 2012, 02:19:55 AM »
Just tried another with iso 100. I am happy. No NR needed in LR :)
One more happy user  :)
 That's nice and gives some good feeling to me  :)

42
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 15, 2012, 10:48:29 AM »
So I activate mirror lock just  before ME shot sequence  (done automatically after camera focused on the subject)  and then deactivate it after ME shot sequence  (using SET button - selectable option in mirror lock function) or it is deactivated itself later by camera itself .
Unfortunately this is not supported by my 5DMkIII that's why I was wondering how you can do that. So it's only Live View for me  :(  (OK I know it is sufficient and actually a super set of Mirror Lock for this purpose but still ...)
  Actually mirror lock is not required – just an option to get better image sharpness – reducing camera vibrations and preventing refocusing for each ME shot in sequence.
If for first one nothing could be done with 5DM3 but for second one it is possible to focus automatically then switch lens to manual focus to keep focus unchanged during  ME sequence

43
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 15, 2012, 10:36:51 AM »
  As I understand it, the pixel data will be averaged and not summed as that is what is selected in step 1.3. So my understanding is that the exposure should be sufficient to capture all the light for the subject. It is only in the dark areas that the random noise will be evened out.

Neutral, do correct me if I did not get it right.
Averaging is summing up all the values and then dividing result by number of samples.
Mathematically averaging is (A1+A2+A3 +...+AN)/N where N is number of samples.
  By using ME method Image SNR will be increased for every pixel on the image - regardless if this shadows or highlights where SNR is already high and will be even better.
As result of cleaner image you can use more aggressive sharpening without any visible problems on the image

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EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 15, 2012, 10:33:41 AM »
Thank you!
Will single long exposure achieve the same effect keeping iso constant?
9 exposure with total integration of 2.5secs = smaller aperture and keeping shutter open for 2.5secs?
Unfortunately this will not help.
 Basically by doing so you will be just reducing amount of light per time unit to the sensor to keep exposure longer  to obtain the same amount of light. 
    Mutli-Exposure  method is different  - it allows to capture more light - up 9 times more for 1Dx (and 10 times more for  Nikon D800) than in single shot and then averaging that  (normalizing)  to one single shot image . But random noise is not increased by 9 times but only  by  Sqrt(9)=3
 So after averaging 9 shots in ME sequence  (normalizing it to one shot) we will have  10*log(9/sqrt(9))=10*log(3)= 4.7dB  image SNR improvements.

 On the link below you can find detailed explanations - I was referring this in one of my previous post .
Found it when was searching for something that could answer all the questions.
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-averaging-noise.htm
 " In general, magnitude of noise<http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/image-noise.htm> fluctuation drops by the square root of the number of images averaged, so you need to average 4 images in order to cut the magnitude in half."

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EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 15, 2012, 10:30:07 AM »
    This method is commonly use in Astrophotography to reduce noise (mainly to reduce random noise) and improve image quality...
This correct. And they could use thousands and thousands of images for averaging to extract details that far below noise level.   And have supercomputers to do this using sophisticated processing algorithms – not just simple averaging

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