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76
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 05, 2012, 10:16:10 AM »
Could you do one thing just to test another approach? Please export the RAW file to TIFF and push the shadows in the resulted file. I saw very good results someone shared here using this method.
Mathematically this should not give any difference as noise is already in the image.
You might see improvements in SNR  a little bit but only if during this conversion from RAW to TIFF some small per pixel details are lost e.g due to down sampling

77
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 05, 2012, 10:14:41 AM »
Hi Neutral, thanks for sharing the technique and outcomes.... interesting (& understandable).

The only thing is, that the final output file you show, has significantly more noise and vertical banding than the base file "1DX_ISO100_EV0-Crop200%.JPG".

The file 1DX_ISO100_EV0-Crop200%.JPG is the cleanest for me... in fact very good for a 200% crop.

At least, that is what displays on my PC & Monitor.  Anyone else?

Paul
As I mentioned above this method gives about 2 stops of visible SNR improvements, not full 3 stops and this above is "stress" test to see  camera limits and what could be dome with that.
  So definitely 0EV ISO100 image IQ will still be better than -3EV image pulled up 3 stops using this shooting method.
But even this is significant improvement.
 At 100% crop this difference is almost invisible and for normal shots with 0EV it gives enough room for shadows details recovery - almost full 2 stops
Just pull shadows up to the level where banding pattern is just below black point and get almost perfect image
Vertical banding:
 As I mentioned - you can filter down only random noise thus pulling fixed details up from the random noise. Low amplitude fixed image details becomes visible as they not any more masked out by random noise. Image banding are fixed sensor imperfections which also filtered out from random noise and become more visible as well.
I think but not 100% sure that banding is fixed specific pattern for each specific sensor .
If so it could be easily removed as well - just one calibration short with(-3EV) against dark gray surface using the same method. Save this calibration shot and then subtract this from the normal image in Photoshop  - add calibration shot as a second layer above the image, invert this layer and adjust intensity, transparency and contrast for maximum banding removal.
I think all this technique could be easily incorporated in camera firmware for night shot mode.

78
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 04, 2012, 02:42:59 PM »
OK, no magic - just "feeling" what is behind numbers )))

But seriously  this method used for decades for filtering noise out in different applications.
This is use of simple math in real life use.
Noise is random - image is fixed.
So what is required is just to integrate information element for a longer time and random noise would be filtered out.
  I believe that  this is something that  also was being used in astronomy to separate low level image details that could be even below random noise level.  Also used in communication systems.
=========
So how this is done with 1Dx ???
------
1Dx has one feature which is  intended for some artistic work but it could be used for something completely different.
This feature is multi-exposure – in one of the posts I mentioned about this for filtering out noise.
You can take up to 9 shots and 1Dx will average these shots into one.
 As each shot has it's own random noise distribution then averaging 9 shots into one would  essentially suppress noise - only fixed elements will  be kept - so random electronic noise is significantly reduced but fixed patterns - real image or sensor defects are kept and cleared out of noise. This is equivalent  to 9 times of longer integration time of the information element in the image detector.

How to  do this in 1Dx:
Enable  multi-exposure continuous shooting, number of exposures to 9, multi-exposure control to  Average (to integrate over 9 images) , put mirror lock up with the set button release  to reduce camera vibration (will be returned back by set button) , put camera in high speed continuous shooting mode, press shutter - mirror will be locked, press shutter again and keep it pressed - camera will take quickly 9 images in less than 1 sec , stops and then merge it ( integrate)  into one image.
And you are done.
Now press set button to return mirror back and then you could see the result.
So nothing special - just to see things a bit deeper)))
Method is suitable for only still images .
In normal conditions such kind of shot will take about 0.75 sec with FPS =12
And of course could be only shot using strong stable tripod for camera.

79
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 04, 2012, 02:34:07 PM »
Resizing down to 8Mpx file dimensions?  ;D

No, full sensor resolution )))

80
EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 04, 2012, 12:30:15 PM »
OK, now is 200% crop of the similar EV=(-3) shoot from 1Dx  using some  special shooting  method  with 1Dx . 
Shadows are recovered in LR with Exposure slider set to +3 to compensate for in camera EV =(-3) . No noise reduction in LR.
Note how SNR for random noise was improved.

 So we have almost two stops  improvement here  for random noise SNR.
This means that with normal exposure it is possible to successfully recover details in very deep shadows at ISO100.
We still  see some slight pattern noise on the image but I believe that there is some NR software that doing very well with reducing pattern  noise - might be Topaz  De-noise  but not very sure  as I do not have that.
  If all combined together with some special shooting method with 1Dx  it  is possible to get shadow SNR  on par with Nikon D800.
So now quiz - how this was done?

81
EOS Bodies - For Stills / 1Dx ISO100 high DR shadows SNR improvement
« on: November 04, 2012, 12:28:45 PM »
One of the weak sides of the 1Dx is noise   in deep shadows at base ISO.
It seems that nobody is arguing about that any more.
 DXO 1Dx measurement results also show that very clearly on their measurement curves.
And I believe that nobody would be arguing that performance in this area is very critical for not just few people but for many people  - for landscape photography, evening/night  city shots and other sort of photography.
Though it is easy to argue that that Nikon D800 would be the better choice BUT why not to see how we could get better deep shadow SNR from 1Dx.
In one of my posts I mentioned that 1Dx has a very nice feature that could be used for that.
I will not name it now (will do at SOME next post) but here is some magic - example how it works (snapshots from LR screen - noise reduction is totally disabled  )
1.  First image shows 1dX  shot at IS100  with EV=(-3)   the Data Color noise calibration chart  which was  used  for Noise Ninja NR S/W and PS plug-in. Shot  with  manual Out of Focus  to blur target texture so it would not interfere with noise
2. Second one is the same with Exposure slider in LR set to +3  - looks the same as normal shot with EV=0
3. Third  image is 200% crop  of shot with EV=0 showing normal 1Dx ISO shadow noise
4. Fourth one is 200% crop of the EV=-3 shot with LR exposure set to +3 to raise shadows to normal level.
     Level of 1Dx noise at ISO100 at  -3 EV shadows is very clearly seen
 
 And next post is  little bit of magic  - the similar EV=(-3) shoot from 1Dx  recovered in LR - 200% crop  to see the difference  in SNR for random nose with the previous shot.
 

82
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: November 02, 2012, 04:27:10 PM »
At that time we'll be doing eye transplants.
These are already available )))
Sensor with special adaptor to connect this sensor to nurve stem.
This allowed to restore vision to totaly blind people
Also brain microchips implants are already availabe - being used to restore some lost brain functionlity.
Problem before was connection of non-organic chip to the organic tissue and provide purmanent electical contact to nurves and it was successfully resolved few years back.

So how has this been working out for the patient?

Here is article regarding artificial eye implants.
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/410884/longer-lasting-artificial-eyes/
So far it is still limited - number of pixels and connectition to the nurves but gives ability to patients to recognize things around.

-----------
Here is another  article regarding neuroprocessor brain implants -  how it works but I think it is not the latest one.  One that I read some time ago and was referencing above - can not find now - the same but with special chip bottom layer which  allows  brain tissue (neurons) to grow into this chip special bottom layer forming electrical contact  between neurons and implant  instead of using titanium electrodes -this  was very interesting article- recent research results from one of the labs - not availabe commercially yet.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Ti8_AY4DykwC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=neuroprocessor+brain+implant&source=bl&ots=z-ZnRO_2D6&sig=uP0bxtM_rHkm-wkJbaO4dUF-kk8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=BSiUUK6gOIG3hQe99IGgBg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=neuroprocessor%20brain%20implant&f=false

83
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: November 02, 2012, 01:30:50 PM »
At that time we'll be doing eye transplants.
These are already available )))
Sensor with special adaptor to connect this sensor to nurve stem.
This allowed to restore vision to totaly blind people
Also brain microchips implants are already availabe - being used to restore some lost brain functionlity.
Problem before was connection of non-organic chip to the organic tissue and provide purmanent electical contact to nurves and it was successfully resolved few years back.


84
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: November 02, 2012, 06:48:08 AM »
  For those who are interested  some more details to my post above  regarding "IBM carbon nanotechnology  - nanotubes for future of microelectronics" which I mentioned there - latest publication (17hours ago) in "EE Times India" explains that in easy way and what it promise in some future not too far away from now.
Actually IBM is investing a lot  in R&D and that investments are very effective - making revolutionary breakthroughs in number of technologies. And this below is only small part of their R&D areas.

  "Carbon nanotubes represent a new class of semiconductor materials whose electrical properties are more attractive than silicon, particularly for building nanoscale transistor devices that are a few tens of atoms across. Electrons in carbon transistors can move easier than in silicon-based devices allowing for quicker transport of data. The nanotubes are also ideally shaped for transistors at the atomic scale, an advantage over silicon. These qualities are among the reasons to replace the traditional silicon transistor with carbon—and coupled with new chip design architectures—will allow computing innovation on a miniature scale for the future."

 Enjoy reading full article:
http://www.eetindia.co.in/ART_8800677471_1800007_NT_eb791c5c.HTM

Official IBM press release:
http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/39250.wss

An here is another small publication:
http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/2012/10/how-nanotechnology-could-speed-up-ibm.html




85
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: November 02, 2012, 04:09:13 AM »
Someday, far off in the future when we have the kind of bandwidth and picoscale sensor fabrication technology that would make a modern DSLR geek's eyeballs pop and brain boil, I foresee a camera sensor that operates more along the lines of human sight: Extremely high resolution, near-perfect quantum efficiency, extremely high sensitivity, excessively high "continuous frame rate" (tens of thousands of frames per second at least), ultra fast image processor that can do similar things to the brain...additively combine hundreds or thousands of individual "frames" from the sensor into a superresolution image that could potentially be larger in pixel dimensions than the sensor itself, and effectively have unlimited dynamic range (or say something around 25 stops...which might as well be unlimited...2048x more range than the D800 has (if that puts it in perspective. ;P). Of course, we would also need 10 stop inks and paper, 16 stop high density (300ppi) computer screens, etc. to actually make effective use of such an eye-wateringly good camera. Ah, the future is going to be so expensive...

It is pleasure to see that some people vision of the future is very close to mine)))
  In fact even now there is a lot of technology pieces around  which if combined together could result in a stunning sensor performance.  And just recently new publication from IBM about their research results in microchips technologies –something which is really amazing.   Also use of graphene nano-tubes in micro- circuitry design.   
    Imagine sensor using sub 10nm  3D technology process  with   graphene nano-tubes ,   per pixel ADC and per pixel small processor, per pixel adjustable dynamic sensitivity and dynamic  ISO, per pixel phase detection for on chip AF for all the pixels  across the frame (no more mirror/ prism , no more separate AF circuitry), per pixel uniformity calibration etc.  All that is  possible to do now.
  And you right about R&D target  in this area – to make imaging device (sensor(s)+ processors array) to reach capabilities of the human eye.  I would add more - not only to reach but far surpass those capabilities – e.g. for robotics vision.   People who are watching what is happening in different R&D areas around see how many things that were described in science fiction rapidly come into existence.
Some things could drastically change our world in next near 30-50 years.
  Unfortunately all that initially being done not for general public but in areas where primary goal is result and not a profit – just keep cost under some control.  Than 10-15 year later it becomes available for others.  Hopefully we will see some results of such developments in some near future.

86
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: November 01, 2012, 10:20:01 AM »
Ok, so here I am a physicist (no I am not a student anymore) and I don't "FEEL" anything regarding DXO.

Are you trying to kid us all here? Get a grip on reality.

Social scientists 'feel' things.  Real scientists quantify things.... 


  Do you really want to say that you do not "FEEL" what is behind the numbers in a real life or do not want to "FEEL" them?
  Simple example - you are leaving your apartment, checking the weather gadget and it tells that in one hour temperature will drop down from 70F to 41F and wind speed will rise from 1m/c to 30m/c.  And you will be telling that you do not "feel" what all that means and what you need to do regarding that and what to put on? I can't believe that  ))))))) And there thousands examples like this)))
I think this example above clearly clarifies what I meant in my posts using word “FEEL” the numbers.
  And I really appreciate your sense of humor but as usual to make a joke one need to turn things upside down to make things look funny.
And here order of things does matter and significant.
First of course are things quantified by numbers (nobody argues about that) and then how one  realize or understand  what is behind that numbers ("forest behind the trees")  - one  can name it "FEEL", "VISUALIZE", "IMAGINE" - call it whatever you want.
I have no doubts that you know this better than me ))))
  Regarding DXO SCORE discussion my point was that it is absolutely pointless to argue about SCORE results, one need to see at measurements curves and understand or "feel" how this correlates to real life.
 Arguing about one dimensional SCORE value is the same as to argue about mapping multi-dimensional space into one dimensional. No need to be a scientist to know that mapping multidimensional space into single dimensional space has infinite number of solutions and each one could be correct depending on initial mapping conditions.  In addition this mapping is not reversible - you cannot revert or map it back to the original space - here is again infinite number of solutions for that.

 Any discussion should be constructive and not destructive – so something useful could result as outcome of that and could be used for benefit of all involved.
  Again back to DXO  - and if they are listening – they could easily reconcile most (but not all of course) people on all the forums by introducing several different sensor scores based on the target usage and carefully defined  metrics to get right score for each of the usage domains e.g.:
1. Landscape/studio photography
2. General use photography (no extreme conditions)
3. Sport/events/shows photography for ISO above 1600 or may be even above ISO 3200
4. Best universal shooting – suitable to work in any extreme conditions
5. Keep their own DXO metrics.
   Then from drop down menu list anyone can select criteria which he want to use to and see what are sensors ranking and what is the best sensor for this specific domain.   
There is no big deal to do that.
This could be just better way to present measurements results to specific groups of photographers.

87
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: October 31, 2012, 02:31:41 PM »

Well that's exactly the problem my friend, their score system isn't about the whole picture of the sensor, but that's what gets  advertised. But hey, they say it themselves : "DxOMark is the trusted industry standard for camera and lens independent image quality measurements and ratings". So we should trust their ratings!

You call yourself a lab, then give me QE vs wavelength as standard, read noise and Full capacity well at different ISO, and SNR at different illumination and ISO and stop advertising camera's sensor with a meaningless score... Well maybe that's just me and my physics anyway...
Please no familiarities here – this is at least impolite not to say more)))
As for DXO – we are not discussing what they are claiming themselves – just results of their measurements.
And forget about SCORES  - when you see at measurement curves you need to “FEEL” sensor performance across different conditions the same way as you “feel” image histogram in the camera or image processing S/W.
Do you give this histogram any scores to better work with the image?
If you are telling that you studying physics – think of Fourier or Laplace transforms that give you information about physical process in other domains/dimensions   which helps better understand the properties of the process and work with it.
 And I do not see any point discussing this further

88
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: October 31, 2012, 01:35:18 PM »
But their score is about DR at ISO 100, and I'm sorry, but 99.99% of my images don't need to be pushed 3+ stops and my camera is not always stuck at ISO 100 so this is irrevelent to 99.99% of user.


This is a bit funny – you do very common mistake as many others   - you are extrapolating your own world dimensions to the other worlds which is totally wrong methodologically.
Basically what you are telling is - “ I do not need that so I assume that all other people do not need  that either”. Big DOT.
Here is the question – how do you know  in your confined world  what  I need or other people need  ???
In this respect your judgment is no better than DXO Scores that you are blaming )))

89
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: October 31, 2012, 01:17:56 PM »
  And again there is nothing wrong in DXO measurements.
For those who are blaming DXO for numbers which they do not like I would recommend to calm down, learn some math and physics, tests methodologies and procedures and many other related things.  Then digest all that , stop  and try to think and understand what it is all about (I mean DXO measurements).  And one more thing again - they do not measure overall cameras performance features wise,  they just measuring sensor in the camera , nothing more to that.

That's not true (and I study physics...), there is a huge problem with DXO measurements and it's there overall score and it's really easy to find out : Nikon D3200 is 13th and 5DIII is 14th (and there are a lot other exemple, this is just really obvious one). Now taking only sensor read noise this may be true, but taking the overall image quality this is certaintly false.

And again this it really easy to see if you dig deeper into their tests. 5DIII beats D3200 in every single tests they've made (screen or print) except DR below ISO400 (at which they are about egal and beyond that 5DIII is better by about a stop).

If they would based their scores on a average of SNR across a range of ISO, now that would be representative of a camera. But their score is about DR at ISO 100, and I'm sorry, but 99.99% of my images don't need to be pushed 3+ stops and my camera is not always stuck at ISO 100 so this is irrevelent to 99.99% of user.

So their system is a huge joke to me... At the very least if the want to gain credibility, they need to separate scores with different sensor size. But otherwise I like their specific tests!
We are talking about completely deferent things)))
You are talking about SCORES and I was talking about MEASUREMENTS  .
Measurements results you can see on the DXO measurements curves and they give you 100% about sensor performance.
The Scores are how they present overall measurement results - for this you need to do some summarization with different weight factors for each measurement result and for measurement curves you need to take integral with variable weight factor across the curve. And after that to sum all the integration results again with specific weight factor for each number.    This weight factors are beyond the scope of measurements   - they are just method of summarizing/presenting results and they are of course subjective depending of what is more important ( e.g. target of usage) . 

  And one more thing to add – to study physics and understand or even more- to feel it  is a VERY BIG difference. I know a lot of folks who studied a lot of disciplines , they  remember a lot of details, numbers but they do not “feel” them and do not see the “root” or “essence” of the things – as told in one very well known saying “Do not see the forest behind the trees”

90
EOS Bodies / Re: Official DXOMark Sensor Score for the EOS-1D X
« on: October 31, 2012, 12:47:19 PM »
But color rendering is noticeably better for saturated colors, interface is better organized.
Could you please clarify which application you are referring to in this statement?
Subject was related to DXO 8, so this  above relates to Dxo 8 improvements over Dxo 7.5.5.

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