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Messages - roguewave

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Pricewatch Deals / Re: Deal: Canon EF 24-105 f/4L IS $648
« on: December 22, 2013, 08:46:10 PM »
I always get really excited when I see good deals such as this. Then I remember I live in norway :(

Funny :-). Seriously though, aren't there deals in Norway? What's the price over there?

Here in Brazil the 6D can't even be found at stores (just searched -- not even online), but the 60D is worth around US$ 2,000 body-only and up to US$ 3,500 with the 18-200 kit lens. Pretty ridiculous.

Are you serious? That's crazy! For that amount, you could probably fly to the US to buy it, and still have money left after paying airfare and hotel :-).

Pricewatch Deals / Re: Deal: Canon EF 24-105 f/4L IS $648
« on: December 22, 2013, 07:33:41 PM »
I always get really excited when I see good deals such as this. Then I remember I live in norway :(

Funny :-). Seriously though, aren't there deals in Norway? What's the price over there?

Having seen this setup, now I understand how happy you must be getting the "tiny Canon M"  ;D.

Nice pictures!

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon Dual-Scale Column-Parallel ADC Patent
« on: December 20, 2013, 03:57:37 PM »
The patent looks like a ramp ADC - they don't take the electrons out to count them, but use a voltage comparison. The unknown pile of e- on the right, you measure how long you have to add charge on the left side until both are equal(or the known one grows larger then the unknown). In theory nothing stops you from using multiple heaps that grow at different rates. You just have to keep crosstalk, external influences and such under control.

Thank you, I think I got it!

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon Dual-Scale Column-Parallel ADC Patent
« on: December 20, 2013, 03:52:06 PM »
I wouldn't call it HDR. HDR is a very misused term as it is. In its proper form, a High Dynamic Range image is an image with an EXCESSIVBLY HIGH dynamic range, stored as 32-bit floating point numbers with extremely fine precision and a dynamic range that could potentially equal thousands of stops (i.e. it can represent numbers from a couple billion down to billionths.)

HDR as it is commonly (mis)used simply refers to the mapping of tones into a limited dynamic range from a source file that might have slightly higher dynamic range. What Canon is doing isn't exactly is a specialized read process that will allow them to better utilize the dynamic range they already have access to, but which is otherwise being diminished by read noise.

I didn't mean to call this process HDR in the strict sense - you're right, it is a misused term.

Regardless of the exact meaning, I was thinking of the common understanding of HDR along the lines of:
...HDR compensates for this loss of detail by capturing multiple photographs at different exposure levels and combining them to produce a photograph representative of a broader tonal range... (wikipedia)

I could be wrong, but isn't that the same idea? Creating the equivalent of two different exposures by applying two different gain levels and then combining them. The difference is pushing it onto the sensor rather than post-processing in software, so there is no need to take multiple shots at different exposure.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon Dual-Scale Column-Parallel ADC Patent
« on: December 20, 2013, 03:22:35 PM »
They aren't splitting it. I am not 100% exactly certain what they are doing, but from what I do understand, when a pixel is read, it is amplified twice, and the results of those different amplifications are transferred to the CP-ADC units simultaneously (on different channels). Same source pixel, two separate but full power signals, which are then blended together at conversion time. It is basically the same thing ML did, only with the appropriate dedicated hardware fabricated right into the sensor to do it right.

I assume there is something clever somewhere in the implementation. HDR has been around for a while, even before ML. It's hard to believe nobody thought earlier about pushing the process into the sensor instead of software.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon Dual-Scale Column-Parallel ADC Patent
« on: December 20, 2013, 02:27:08 PM »
I keep wondering what is going to happen in the future with dual-pixel technology. They have the ability to read both sides of the pixel seperately, I wonder how much work it would be to set the two sides to different ISO values, read them both, and combine the values for greatly expanded DR.

This would obviously require more computing power than just reading the sensor would, but comments out of Canon about the greater computational needs of future cameras ties in with this... I am really curious to see what happens with the 7D2..... It should be dual-pixel and dual processor (Digic6 or even 6+????) so it will be able to do a lot more computing than a 70D. The next year or so could be interesting.

They wouldn't need to bother with the dual-pixel approach with this patent. They simply read "the pixel" (regardless of whether it is a single photodiode, or two/four binned, whatever) with two different gain levels (different ISO settings, done simultaneously on different signals). This patent offers a much better way to solve the problem without resorting to "hackish" approaches like what ML did, or like what you suggest with reading one half the pixel at one ISO and the other half at another ISO (which wouldn't be nearly as good, since each half pixel is only getting half the light, so the half-reads would already be at a disadvantage large enough to completely eliminate any gains you might make with the dual-read process in the first place.)

Even better than simply reading half pixels at different ISO settings, this patent reads each pixel twice simultanesously at different gain levels, while also bringing the ADC on-die and column-parallelizing them, allowing them to run at a lower frequency, thus reducing their potential to add downstream noise. With column-parallel ADC, they could do what Sony Exmor does...per-column read tuning to eliminate vertical banding. It also brings in the benefit of shipping image data off the sensor in an error-correctable digital form, eliminating the chance that the data picks up even further noise as it travels along a high frequency bus and through a high frequency DIGIC chip. This patent would single-handedly solve a LOT of Canon's noise problems.

The only real difference between Canon's Dual-Scale CP-ADC patent and Exmor's is that Exmor uses digital CDS and digital amplification (basically, it is an entirely digital pipeline)...I see no mention of Canon's patent referring to digital data processing on-die. There are theoretically pros and cons to both digital and analog readout, so only time will tell (assuming Canon actually IMPLEMENTS this design sometime soon) whether Canon's approach produces results that are as good as Exmor or not. Sometimes it is easier, and more accurate/precise, to apply certain kinds of processing and filtering on an analog signal rather than digital bits.

Thank you for the explanation! I got the gist of it, but I still don't understand the basics: how is it possible to read the same pixel twice simultaneously? I thought you can't eat your cake and have it too :)? I mean, wouldn't the signal become weaker if you split it?

I had bad experience with Adorama's customer service both times I ordered from them. In contrast, I've purchased photo gear on multiple ocasions from B & H, Amazon, BuyDig, and even Abe's without any issues.

For example, some time after ordering Canon 70-200 f4 IS, since I didn't receive shipping confirmation, I found on their web site that the order status is "canceled". Without any explanation or even notification from Adorama. I tried again with the same result. When I called their customer service, I was told, literally: "your information doesn't match... please don't order from us any more". Five minutes later I used the same credit card to purchase the lens from B & H with no problems whatsoever - after wasting a few days with Adorama for nothing.

I get it that mistakes happen and I wouldn't be upset if they made even the slightest effort to fix things or just explain what happened. Instead, all the customer "service" I received was telling me that they don't want me as a customer? Needless to say, I was glad to oblige and I haven't ordered from Adorama ever since, even if I had to pay more at another seller.

Reviews / Re: Review: EOS M System
« on: December 07, 2013, 07:59:08 PM »
I always enjoy your PP skill TWI by Dustin Abbott :).

With 2 kids (2 &5yrs), I wish I can have some spare times and learn how PP digital images.

dustin... i'm still waiting for you to write a book on your post processing workflow so i can buy it :D

nice review BTW much better than my crap attempt when i first got it :P

Tell you what: in the meantime I will try to find a place to share links to the tutorials I write for various publications.  I've got a series of three articles that will go live shortly that I did for Alien Skin. 

The downside:  when I post those kinds of links I invariably get blasted by some posters here for blatant self promotion.  Guess you can't please everyone.

I also like the PP on these photos. If you could share these links, that would be much appreciated.

Thank you also for the review. It's nice to see what the M can do in good hands :-).

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« on: December 05, 2013, 05:37:46 PM »
Best thing is to find a shop where both cameras are on display side by side, I am lucky to have found such a shop and took a lot of test shots 6d vs 5d3 and played around with them for hours. Next to the iq, the overall "feel" of the camera is very important, at least to me.

Btw just today I looked at the 70d in the same shop :-p ... seems nice enough and funny thing the lv af suddenly works unlike on 60d, but they did cut back from the 7d in body build and features: af expansion (so the larger amount of points is really only for tracking) and spot af (the af points of the 70d seem to be *very* big).

That's an option, but then I'd end up buying the camera from the local shop and likely pay their much higher prices. I'd feel bad just "showrooming" for hours and then buying online :-).

I have to admit that the feel of the camera is important, but not critical - definitely lower on my priority list than IQ, AF, sensor noise, camera responsiveness, etc.

At least the 70D AF points are all cross-type. I am really suspicious of how 6D's non-center AF points would work with large aperture, when focusing precision is important.

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« on: December 05, 2013, 05:24:00 PM »
Crop sensor performance of Canon is a bit beyond Nikon and the 70d's 20mp has't advanced much vs. 18mp, I guess that makes many people bash it in *relative* terms - but in *absolute* terms it's really fine, I've been using the 60d for 2.5 years an 150k shots and the only real "no go" area is shooting motion indoors.

Last not least if people spend a hilarious amount of money on a gadget I'd wager to say it's tempting to rationalize a fun purchase (and the 6d has great iq) as essential even when in many situations crop would deliver the same result for standard print/view sizes.

Marsu42, that's exactly what I mean. Aside from some obvious specific situations, does FF has clear IQ advantage in most cases, or is it just a marginal improvement at pixel level, exaggerated in perception by people trying to justify their purchase :-). According to everybody so far, there is a significant real improvement, but I am yet to see sample shots.

I'm also not a big fan of the sell & buy game and rather stick to what I have and purchase other things that are also important (esp. lighting gear (flashes, diffusers), but also monitor, color calibration, tripod, filters, printer, software ... repairs!). For crop your 11-16, 17-55, 70-200 should indeed about cover it, the 17-40 & 24-105 are really ff lenses in sharpness & zoom range even if they add weather sealing.

The 17-40 has not seen much use after I got the 17-55, but I use the 24-105 on crop quite often, instead of swapping the 17-55 and 70-200 all the time.

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« on: December 05, 2013, 05:01:37 PM »
The only way you can justify for yourself if you like the improvement the 6D has over the 70D, is if you use both cameras for yourself, in the situations you shoot in, with the lenses you use.  You can't depend on just looking at the work or tests of other people to decide.   Plenty of people take great shots with iPhones and compact cameras, especially if it's just content that's displayed at websize.  Doesn't mean those are as good as a 6D, but it does mean it depends on WHAT YOU WANT to get out of it, and if you prefer the ergonomics and experience of using a full frame or any specific camera or system.

I used my 50D for 4 years and had over 25,000 shutter cycles.  I loved that camera to death, and planned to keep it a bit longer after buying the 6D.  After the first couple of days of using the 6D, I had decided to sell the 50D.  Eventually a kind gentleman from those internets saw my sale ad, and paid me handsomely for it!

Frankly, if you only shoot birds in very bright daylight with a very high quality telephoto lens (perhaps any of the "big whites"), a 70D very likely makes more sense.  The autofocus is no doubt as good or better than the 6D's in bright light, and you get a ton more reach.  In the dark, the 6D's center point works where all others in the world do not...and even seems to work better on an f/4 lens in these conditions than an f/2 lens, like my 135L.

For most other stills photography situations, the 6D will excel over the 70D.  Perhaps the 70D's image quality is better than the older 7D's, but keep in mind the 7D has generally better AF performance than both the 70D and the 6D...or at least that's what I gather.  But the 7D has luminance noise that looks like a gravel driveway overlaying the image starting at about ISO 400.  I'll grant you that it isn't as obvious until just above there, but that's not saying much.  At ISO 1000 the 7D basically equals the S/N ratio of a Powershot G15 at its own ISO of about half that.  That doesn't speak well for the 7D.

Also, one of the main advantages such a high quality image from the 6D is important, is the ability to crop into an image...even one that is shot at high ISO.  You can't do that with as much success with the 70D.  At the time of shooting, you don't always know or realize, exactly the framing you want...or that a slight or moderate crop winds up looking better when you look at it later on the computer.

For video, the 70D might be better, depending on the situation.

So, if your work is mostly going to be displayed at web sizes, AND YOU HAPPEN TO NEVER EVER CROP INTO AN IMAGE...then you have a lot of affordable choices at your disposal.  If you need the flexibility of a Ferrari at Hyundai prices where image quality is concerned, go for the 6D.

Thank you for your points!

Using the cameras myself would indeed be better than relying on shots from other people and I may end up doing so. However, renting both would set me back at least a couple of hundred bucks, which negates most of the savings I could realize by going with the 70D. If somebody could show a few shots where 6D blows crop out of the water (same conditions and not high ISO), that would make my choice much easier. Everybody claims that to be the case, but a picture is worth a thousand words :-).

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« on: December 05, 2013, 03:54:21 PM »
It's clear that 6D would produce better IQ than crop sensor if high ISO or shallow DOF is required. I'm curious how much difference there is in other situations. Do you really get significantly better detail, colour, etc at "normal" ISO? I'd appreciate if anybody could post a comparison shots taken with 6D and a crop.

The difference is enormous. I think the closest crop camera is the 40D, which seemed to have a very nice balance of pixels/DR. But as far as the 7D, 60D, 70D,  there's no comparison. No noise in the blue channel at ISO 100, no fear off using auto ISO, much sharper image, better color separation, more consistent exposure, etc.

The 40D was a great camera, although I'd ocasionally see blue channel noise even at ISO 400. I know 7D has the same problem, but other than that, you mean it's worse than the 40D in terms of IQ despite being a later and higher-end model?

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« on: December 05, 2013, 03:40:45 PM »
Imho the only correct answer won't make you happy: it depends on the scene.

Some crop shots are indistinguishable from ff or respond very well do noise reduction (not that there are great new algorithms like DxO's PRIME around), and for me some crop macro shots look even superior to ff because the crop "crisp" look goes along with the subject's texture.

Then again, if shooting gradients crop quickly falls apart after some postprocessing because downsizing cannot restore a smooth color transition, or with skin tones and skin texture every bit of nr smudging given an instant plastic look even at low magnification.

If you are not sure about 6d or 70d, my advise definitely would be 70d because it's the better all-around camera, the 6d specializes and excels in some areas but is crippled in others. Just be sure you know what "low light" means (try to meter the LV with your current gear) because even in cloudy daylight crop shooting can become a constant struggle to decide between lower iso or higher shutter speed, resulting in less keepers - the higher iso capability of ff relieves you of that tradeoff and you can concentrate more on the actual shot.

What's your current gear btw? If on a budget it might make sense to go with a 60d and get a better lens, or if you're looking for good iq Canon crop isn't a good choice at all and you should have a look at Nikon...

Your answer makes a lot of sense - in fact, those are my thoughts exactly. I agree that it depends on the scene, and that 70d is a better all around camera, whereas 6D is crippled in some ways. For me, its better low light and shallower DOF capabilities are not enough to offset the 70D's price, better AF, frame rate, cheaper lenses, etc. Now, if the IQ is substantially better as most posters claim, that would be an important factor. Else, if it's a slight difference that most people won't notice without pixel peeping, then I can live with that.

I can afford either of them, but since I don't make money out of my hobby, I don't want to spend more than I need to. I also want to make sure I am happy with my choice for a few years ahead, because I don't like to resell gear. Speaking of gear, I have too many lenses to make a switch to Nikon, both crop and FF: Tokina 11-16, Canon 17-55 f2.8, Canon 17-40, Canon 24-105, Sigma 30 f1.4, Canon 85 f1.4, Canon 70-200 f4 IS, and a few more :-). Depending on which camera I get, I may sell the crop lenses and get Sigma 35 f1.4, Tamron 24-70 f2.8, or both.

EOS Bodies - For Stills / Re: 6D- An amateur's review
« on: December 05, 2013, 02:15:30 PM »
but is it dramatically better for monitor viewing / moderate size prints, or only fine fur details noticeable at 100%?

Ah, now I though that would be a given - for downsizing to the usual sizes crop is really fine, otherwise they wouldn't sell tons of them, would they?

That's why I was so reluctant to make the ff jump as you can get a stellar lens for €1500, but the sensor iq is just one part, it's the combination with shallower dof and different lens performance that matters as all my lenses are ef and perform better on ff.

Well, there is a difference between being just "fine" and being "almost as great as FF" :-).

I assume most 6D buyers don't make large prints on a regular basis. If the difference with crop is only apparent under magnification, it might make more sense to go with the 70D, which is cheaper and better in almost every other way - unless you really need low light capabilities and / or shallow DOF.

If, on the other hand, a viewer could immediately tell a FF shot from a crop sensor shot of the same scene under normal viewing and shot using comparably good lenses, then yeah, the jump to 6D is totally worth it.

That's exactly what I am trying to find out :-).

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