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451
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon 60D vs T4i
« on: February 24, 2012, 11:11:39 AM »
It depends what you want I spose, the T4i will almost definately not offer the same build as the 60D nore the same viewfinder but it could potentially offer better JPG noise reduction/FPS from the new processor or a new sensor with higher resolution and/or ISO performance.

452
EOS Bodies / Re: The Next 5D on February 27/28, 2012 [CR3]
« on: February 24, 2012, 01:38:14 AM »
First off, I think JerryFish (Reply #91) did an excellent job studying the MSRP cost difference between the 1Ds/1DX and the 5D series, for the last 3 generations. That Table is very informative and telling. See below.

I would make the following points, regarding the rumored MSRP:

1.   Keep in mind that through the upgrades of each of its models (including FF series), Canon has done its best to improve various shortcomings of the previous generation. Even though upgrades do cost money and expense, note that such improvements (whether the Pixel Count, ISO, IQ, AF, Processor, FPS, etc.) did NOT result in overly noticeable MSRP increases. (by the way, that is almost true amongst other manufacturers as well, including Nikon). By improving the previous model’s features, and maintaining (or dropping) the MSRP for the newer model, Canon has done very well in holding or improving its position in the market share.

If were talking exclusively about the 5D line then Canon has not really delt with these "shortcomings" before, the 5D mk2 offered a superior sensor and video over the Mk1 but did not offer a significant improvement in FPS, AF or viewfinder coverage. This new 5D is offering specs that are far closer to the tradisional 1D/1DS market.

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3.   In its head-to-head competition with Nikon’s D800, Canon cannot reasonably ask for a higher MSRP than D800’s $3,000.  That is the not-to-exceed price ceiling. In fact, with D800’s long list of expanded features (36MP, Advanced AF, 16-bit Image Processing & Excellent IQ and Video, Built-In Pop-Up Flash, Automated HDR Mode, In-Camera Audio Monitoring & Headphone Jack, Active D-Lighting, USB 3.0 Connector, etc.), it would be wise for Canon to price its new 5D iii/X conservatively at a lower MSRP than D800’s $3,000. An MSRP of around $2,700, similar to 5D II (upon its introduction) would be reasonable.

Based on the above points, if Canon wishes to enjoy the same success and popularity that it had for its 5D line through the past generations, it should price its new 5D III/X at around $2,700.  Otherwise, D800 will win this battle. Simple as that!

In fact, the more I think about the [CR3] report for a MSRP of “Around” $3,500, the more it seems to me that perhaps that price is for a KIT Package, which includes the EF 24-105/f4 L IS II lens.  Now, That would make sense  ;)

It would definately be more sucessful at a lower price however it seems likey(although neither were mention on the CR3) that this new Canon will offer superior ISO, FPS and posisble AF performance compaired to the D800.

As has been mentioned MRSP isnt street price, tradisionally even brand new products are often avalable for significantly below that level. Nikon seem to have bucked that trend by enforcing the MRSP which has likely resulted in it being significantly lower than it otherwise would have been.

453
I'd guess that the "X brand" may well be a way of hyping ISO performance/image quality over pure resolution. Its not really anything new for the 1D series but but having it on the 5DX and G1X your dealing with cameras that look like there main selling point agenst rivals maybe superior performance in that area.

That the 5DX looks like its had its specs boosted so much with a price to match though seems to make a 7DX/2 more desireble aswell though.

454
EOS Bodies / Re: The Next 5D on February 27/28, 2012 [CR3]
« on: February 23, 2012, 02:48:28 PM »
I spose Canon will have the advanatge that they can include the 24-105 IS as a kit lens and still utilise alot of the new sensors resolution where as Nikon likely won't be able to with the 24-120 VR.

I doubt that.
And you forget that the 24-105 IS doesn't deliver sharp edge to edge performance on the 5D2, not even stopped down, at the wide end.

It doesnt deliver perfect performance I agree but it delivers what many users would consider acceptable performance where as the 24-120 seems likely to be very underwhelming on the D800 indeed.

Even on FF I'd guess theres a very significant number of users who never go beyond the kit lens.

455
EOS Bodies / Re: The Next 5D on February 27/28, 2012 [CR3]
« on: February 23, 2012, 05:41:07 AM »
It's all good.... my 7D is plenty enough for now and I must say 22mp can't be the real number given the D800 specs... Why would Canon develop a sensor of this size when the 18mp 1Dx sensor would suit just fine AND lower costs??? A 4mp difference is stupid, so I'm calling bull on these specs.

The sensor has to either be:

Crazy high mp equal or higher than the D800
1Sx sensor @ 18mp


This makes very good sense. I cant either understand why they would have a 18MP and a 22MP sensor.
Perhaps they have designed them completely different with lower read noise and DR for the 22MP and only focused at high ISO for the 18MP sacrifying over all image quality?
Or perhaps they just sacrified IQ at all ISO for the 18MP to be able to get higher FPS?

Why would an 18 Megapixel sensor "just sacrifiece IQ at all ISO"? surely it would make it easier to improve image quality at higher ISO's while also allowing for faster FPS.

Each sensor seems like its tailored to its purpose for me, the 1DX likely having better ISO/FPS and the 5D3 better Resolution/Video.

I'm sure marketing is a big issue aswell, even if the 1DX sensor offered superior actual resolution to the 5D mk2 it would be difficult to sell a reduction in megapixels.

456
EOS Bodies / Re: The Next 5D on February 27/28, 2012 [CR3]
« on: February 23, 2012, 02:29:40 AM »
I am SOOOO happy Canon did not go up to 30MP+. . . THIS is perfect, and they may get the edge over Nikon in all the tests on ISO now AND AF.

Nikon folks have also had to go on the defensive about actually using the D800. Apparently the technical manual warns against hand held photography as there's an increased risk of blurred images. I'm sure wedding photographers will love that. Or they'll be forced to shoot at ISO 6400 all the time so that they can shoot indoors at 1/320 in order to prevent the bride's dress becoming a blurry mess.

The tech manual doesn't warn against shooting handheld, but it does encourage shooting with a tripod to reduce motion blur due to the high mp, they are basically giving a no nonsense tip. They are actually saying that because they have such a high mp camera, you will now be able notice the imperfections in your photos even more than you used too, so the tripod encouragement should come as no surprise. I can't imagine any camera manufacturer promoting shooting handheld over tripod for any reason.

Here the tech manual for those interested

http://www.nikonusa.com/en_US/o/Y6wrkA9OU_z04IreazIXl_22UII/PDF/D800_TechnicalGuide_En.pdf

As problems such as this and diffraction become more of an issue though it does potentially have an impact on the market.

"Landscape" is a pretty broad market afterall, I'm sure it makes up a very sizeble part of 5D mk2 sales but is all of that market using TSE lenses and shooting from tripods most of the time? I'd guess no,  most of them are using a 24-105 IS, 70-200 f/4 or 17-40 hand held and are probabley not printing larger than A2 very often. For many of those people the 5D mk3 seems like it may actually a be a superior landscape camera(certainly a much cheaper one than buying  12-24, 24-70 and 70-200 2.8 lenses for the D800) if the ISO performance is better than the Nikon and the standard zoom lens in the normal range has IS.

As has been said the question to me seems to be how sucessful will Canon be at transmitting that message? doesnt seem like the kind of thing that can really be gotten across easily in adverts depending more of reviewers and shop reps to bring it up. I spose Canon will have the advanatge that they can include the 24-105 IS as a kit lens and still utilise alot of the new sensors resolution where as Nikon likely won't be able to with the 24-120 VR.

457
EOS Bodies / Re: The Next 5D on February 27/28, 2012 [CR3]
« on: February 23, 2012, 02:00:28 AM »
I don't see that as being the case, with the 5D mk2 vs the D700 Canon offered superior resolution and video while Nikon offered superior AF, build and FPS.

I respectfully disagree. It wasn't like canon wanted to offer superior resolution, they had no other choice as they will never offer pro AF in anything other than 1D series. So canon decided to sacrifice 1Ds sensor to protect their 1D sports market.  If they did it the other way and offered pro AF, pro built, weatherseals in $2500 body, how are they gonna justify their $4500 1D?

Video was added by their marketing as a gimmick and it worked.

It seems like there offering that or something close to it in the new 5D.

Really though I don't see how this arguement disprooves my own, yes Canon likely wanted to defend the market for the 1D with the 5D mk2 but you could argue Nikon wantd to defend the D3x market with the D700 plus of course Nikon was also offering a superior ISO/FPS performance to the D700 for alot of its run with the D3s. Whether you personally like it or not video was clearly a massive feature for large numbers of people on the 5D aswell.

How does that disproove my arguement that Canon were offering more in some areas and Nikon in others?

The difference to me seems to be that in the past Nikon were the more conservative company with many releases where as Canon pushed ahead with new tech first and could offer less performance in other areas as a result. Nikon linking up with Sony for sensors while Canon stay exclusively in house seems like its evened the odds to me though and I suspect we'll see more back and fourth from both companies.

458
EOS Bodies / Re: The Next 5D on February 27/28, 2012 [CR3]
« on: February 22, 2012, 08:49:51 PM »
I'm really quite bummed about the CF/SD bit...I'd much prefer two CF slots, or perhaps a CF slot and an XQD or something capable of SDXC speeds.

I'm guessing this is the price Canon have to pay for releasing a camera that competes more directly with its own flagship than Nikon's crop body.

459
Well FF for me would be more "wants" than "needs" but generally I'd favour more MP over ISO/FPS/AF however I'd wait to see how the new 5D and D800 actually perform before choosing between them if I did upgrade. If superior low ISO noise performance on the Canon(say 400 and below) and the limations of glass(a 14-24, 24-70 and 70-200 2.8's  setup is most definately out of my price range) ment the difference in resolution was less than the figures suggest I might go for it instead.

460
Lenses / Re: 5DIII/X Kit Lens? (please vote)
« on: February 22, 2012, 08:29:15 PM »
You forgot option 6  None body only

Given estimated prices in UK 5dIII/X without grip. + 24-70II would be dearer than 1DX.

Interesting to consider that the D800 seems to be body only, I'd guess because Nikon acknowledge that the 24-120 isnt good enough to make use of the sensor.

That to me seems to be a potential advanatge to Canon since the 24-105 not only outshines the Nikon lens but also seems better suited to a lower resolution/higher ISO body. Price wise a 5D mk3 + 24-105 kit will likely come in a good deal cheaper than a new D800 + 24-70 bought seperately.

461
EOS Bodies / Re: The Next 5D on February 27/28, 2012 [CR3]
« on: February 22, 2012, 08:13:37 PM »
D800 would make it look silly, especially costing $500 less, if they gave it a crippled 1DX AF and low fps.

But how many would switch camps for $500? 

Traditionally nikon offered maximum features within the given price point, whereas canon offered features to stay competitive within the price point. They even to went to the level of bringing down 60d to allow room for premium on 7d. Nothing wrong with that. It is just marketing and both companies have different ways to differentiate product lines.

I don't see that as being the case, with the 5D mk2 vs the D700 Canon offered superior resolution and video while Nikon offered superior AF, build and FPS. If this camera and the D800 end up as long term competitors in the same fashion Nikon are now offering superior resolution while Canon offer superior ISO and FPS.

462
Lenses / Re: New Lenses Coming [CR3]
« on: February 22, 2012, 07:32:57 PM »
why 40? that's 40 on FF and 65 on crop. huh?

and what are you going to use it on? consumer DSLRs have that ugly prism/flash thing protruding from the body and a pancake would look real ugly on them
a 5D or 1D is so large that a 50/1.8 already looks like a pancake (i.e. no advantage using an even smaller lens)

why 2.8? I understand the 24 and 28, they have IS, they are wide angle. but 40 is in the "normal" range, f/2 would help. even if not the best quality, who cares.
I hope that this is going to be cheap at least.

Unless they are actually planning a EOS-mount mirrorless camera like the new pentax thing. (uhhgly) so a pancake would make sense. still, 30/35 would have been better.

Seems very similar to the existing Pentax 40mm 2.8 limated pancake thats been sold for use on DSLR's not much smaller than a 5D.

The prism and the grip still don't add that much more lenght to a 5D beyond the mount so a slim 40mm 2.8 will potentially save space, the same with most Canon DSLR's.

463
EOS Bodies / Re: Canon 18-45 f/3.5-5.6 Kit Lens for APS-C Mirrorless Patent
« on: February 22, 2012, 12:14:19 PM »
... and here we go again :) . Don't you think that full frame mirrorless doesn't have to be a small camera? I mean, why should it be? "Compact large aperture AF zooms" ...

Size reduction has thus far been the key selling point of all mirrorless systems, it doesnt mean the camera needs to be tiny like the NEX but I'd guessing most potential users wouldnt want something much larger than an M9.

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why would you need such lens for a mirrorless camera?

For exactly the same reasons you'd want one on a DSLR.

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It makes no sense. Just buy a DSLR if you want it all balanced.

..and if the the vast majority of users do deside they want that balance and get a DSLR instead such a mirrorless system is not going to be very sucessful is it?

I'm just pointing out that a FF mirrorless is a much riskier move than an ASPC one because it would be unable to target an existing large market with a smaller system. The majority of ASPC users are happy with an already small kit zoom  lens and maybe a small fast prime and/or a slowish tele zoom. FF users on the other hand have gotten used to many larger lenses that are going to be more difficult to balance with a smaller mirrorless system.

464
EOS Bodies / Re: March 2, 2012 The Day for an Announcement?
« on: February 22, 2012, 11:58:33 AM »
For what it's worth, and based on no inside knowledge whatsover, just my experience in sales, my money is on two DSLRs being announced next week. First up, the 650D. The 25th anniversary of the EOS 650 launch is just too good a marketing opportunity to pass up. Then we get into more interesting territory. At a guess, I'd say the 5DX will be announced next week, probably at 22MP. And then in time for Photokina in the Autumn (or fall if you prefer) a 3DX at 45MP. Or just possibly vice versa.

My concern though is not much leakage yet, which seems odd.

The waiting is driving me nuts ... just like the rest of you.

If the 650D is a reheated 600D I'd say it would certainly make sense to launch it at the same time as the new 5D, get a bit of reflected glory and bypass any criticism.

My guess with the high megapixel body is that Canon has been working on something but hasnt desided whether to release it yet. If reaction to the D800 isnt favourable(E.G. if even Nikons best lenses don't live up to the sensor) and a 22MP all rounder 5D is selling better they may do without it.

I do have a sneaking feeling that Canon is going to look to have something a bit mroe eye catching to annouce beyond the specs we've seen which seems like more of a perfection of existing standards than anything radically new, 4K video? very low price point?

465
EOS Bodies / Re: From NL: NDAs expiring on the 2nd of March
« on: February 22, 2012, 05:56:33 AM »
I'm hoping for 20-somethinig MP ... the Nikon camp is currently in a dither because Nikon is saying that need to use it with a tripod nearly all the time! lolz

And what of the 7D? 60d? 50d? Nobody ever uses them hand-held? Hah, they all have higher photosite density than the D800!

Shutter speeds are going to be lower on a D800 at similar ISO's and similar DOF's to crop bodies though arent they?

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