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Messages - moreorless

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EOS Bodies / Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« on: October 28, 2011, 02:00:18 AM »
I think the biggest clue is the announcement is scheduled in Hollywood...  i.e. very video orientated...

I wouldnt say a 5D annouced in hollywood would necessarily be pushed towards video at the expense of other areas. Obviously the video aspect would be hyped up but really hollywood isnt any worse than anywhere else to hype a stills camera aswell.

One feature I'd hope moves down the line quickly is the 1DX's larger back screen.

EOS Bodies / Re: what the 1Dx may tell us about the 5Diii
« on: October 26, 2011, 04:07:44 PM »
or maybe perhaps Canon will repackage the 1Dx sensor in a body like the 60D, not have a frame rate more than 5 per second, and the 7D's AF system. A body like this for $2k would be great.

I could certainly see Canon doing that if they used the 1DX sensor in an entry level body, give it decent build but low enough that pro's won't trust it.

Theres been alot of talk that we could see both that kind of FF body and a higher end high megapixel one.

EOS Bodies / Re: No 5D Mark III on Novemeber 3 [CR2]
« on: October 26, 2011, 03:50:28 PM »
On another site, I read someone's hands on review of the 1DX and he said he overheard two Canon employees hinting at the November announcement. The writer said that it would make a lot of people happy.

It's a Hollywood announcement. Maybe it's an X Mark I Electronic Clapperboard that will make a lot of 2nd ACs happy...   :P

The 5D line does of course have some connection with hollywood though so both the high end videocam and it being annouced at the same time might not be impossible.

EOS Bodies / Re: No 5D Mark III on Novemeber 3 [CR2]
« on: October 26, 2011, 03:47:32 PM »
Totally different markets?  I doubt that.  They'd have to nerf the 5dmrkiii pretty bad for it not to cannibalize any 1DX sales.  I agree with neuroanatomist when he says that "time" is a good way to differentiate the two. Plus the mrkii is still selling well. So for all of the reasons mentioned, the probability of getting your hands on a 5Diii within a year is very low.

If Canon don't release any other FF camera in the near future the 1DX will obviously benefit as some may buy it even if its features don't totally suit them but I don't see that as "cannibalizing" 1DX sales if they release something more suitable for those users.

The markets just seem far more different than the 1Ds mk3/ and 5D mk2, there you had two bodies sold on MP first with the higher end one also giving some of the 1D functionality(decent FPS, high end AF, high end double grip build).  Not everyone may have been happy with the 5D's AF and build but equally the 1Ds mk3's AF and build/size plus the prenuim they came at was probabley overkill.

But for the sake of discussion, say they did want to differentiate it with fps. Would people be happy with 36MP at 2fps(slower than its predecessor)?

The 1DX processor seems to hint that 3 FPS for 36 megapixels which would I'd guess keep most users happy and make sure it stayed well away from the 1DX.

If your getting below 3 FPS then I'd say that would depend on the cameras market, if its the only FF body besides the 1DX  thats perhaps too low but if theres also a lower megapixel 5D sized body with higher FPS then the ultra high megapixel body would I'd guess be mainly selling to the landscape/studio market were FPS isnt that important.

EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 7D mrk. II
« on: October 25, 2011, 06:43:47 AM »
I know people are getting excited with all the upgrade they in the 7d mark ii, but if all this update come true, high mp, high fps, better af(which is already is), better build quality(which is already is), weather sealed(which is already is), amazing high iso performance, faster cpu speed, wifi or gps(why do we need this again?) and many other things that are common in the wish list. All of these thing will cost alot. Dont dreaming on to get all of this and just want to pay $1500 for it. You want better iso performance, higher mp this and that but are not willing to pay. That would be ridiculous. So please make some logical analysis before making your wishlist.

Unless 7d will beome the next 1d, i dont think there will be a lot of improvement. If 7d will become the next 7d ie a camera targeted to the professional wildlife and action photography who need extra reach than the ff then i believe a lot of improvement will be done to the 7d but it will cost a lot more than you pay now.

I wouldnt be that supprized if Canon did indeed shift the 7D up in the market a little to closer to $2000. There is as you say a gap created by the 1DX shifting up in price and losing the crop and also the xxD line has been in no mans land a little. If you shift the 70D up market slightly then perhaps it could get the build quality back that seemed to turn off many prospective users with the 60D.

EOS Bodies / Re: Does 1DX mean Canon is reshuffling their pro lineup?
« on: October 25, 2011, 06:32:37 AM »
Unfortunately, I think neuro is right... there is a very slim chance that Canon will improve the AF in the 7D after only one generation.

Were talking one pro generation though and the 7D by its very nature seems to me to be a line that is likely to need something new to sell it. Alot of the hype was afterall based on it bringing a host of new features to the crop market and if Canon is going to look to maintain that they I'd guess something more than a small MP/ISO boost maybe needed.

EOS Bodies / Re: Does 1DX mean Canon is reshuffling their pro lineup?
« on: October 24, 2011, 12:06:02 PM »
3D - 30-40 megapixels, 7D AF, 3-4 FPS, 100% viewfinder, pro build/sealing. - $3500-4000

5D mk3 - 18 megapixels, 7D AF, 5-6 FPS, less than 100% viewfinder, current build - $2000-2500

FPS and AF seem the most obvious ways to differentiate a high megapixel body from the 1DX to me.

You're right, the main differentiators will likely be fps and AF.  The thing is, the 7D AF is the best Canon AF outside of the 1-series.  So, for another FF camera to have the 7D AF would not be a real differentiator.  Now, maybe it would...if you really mean the actual 7D AF, i.e. an APS-C-sized AF sensor - that would have the same top/bottom spread as the AF in the 5DII, and a slightly reduced side-to-side spread.   

But, I'm pretty sure that you mean the 7D's AF system upscaled to match the FF sensor, meaning even though it only has 19 points, it would covers the same horizontal spread as the 1D X and would even have a slightly larger vertical spread, i.e. much better coverage than the 5DII.  The 7D's AF is good enough that Canon borrowed many of those features for the 1D X.  They're not going to put an AF that good in a FF body outside of the 1-series, because then they'd be differentiating primarily on fps, and that's not enough.

Consider where the 5D/5DII's AF is positioned in the lineup - it's based on the 20D's AF and thus most similar to the AF system currently in the Rebel/xxxD line (9 points, only one cross-type).  I'm ignoring the 6 invisible points on the 5D, since those are intended to help with AI Servo tracking, and while maybe they do help, tracking a moving subject is clearly not the 5DII's forte).  In overall performance, the 5DII's Af is a step below the xxD AF.  I think a sub-1-series FF will keep the same relative position.  It seems likely that the xxD AF will get a bump - it's been used in three bodies (40D through 60D).  So, Canon enhances the xxD AF slightly (say, 15 points and better tracking), gives 9 cross type points to the xxxD/Rebel line but none of the sophisticated tracking (and that addresses how they can release a new xxxD in early 2012 with the same 18 MP APS-C sensor), and the next FF gets the FF-sized version of that, with no broader spread of points than is currently in the 5DII.

I agree Canon are likely to keep the 7D line's AF above the 3D/5D/6D but they could equally deside to shift both lines AF upwards.

I wouldnt be supprized if the 7D line generally was pushed up market a little to pickup any 1D users who need the crop and persuade existing users to upgrade. Canon's crop lineup is afterall pretty crowded and a bit more space between each body might help.

EOS Bodies / Re: Does 1DX mean Canon is reshuffling their pro lineup?
« on: October 24, 2011, 07:39:39 AM »
@moreorless : now this is going to make choices really interesting. I can see current 5D2 users wanting to jump to "your" 3D and first-time-FF users taking your 5D3 prediction. I consider this very business oriented and logical

I think it makes sense for canon to build a high MP FF camera, decrease the frame rate and build quality, and decrease high ISO performance and DR.  But then throw a $4,500 price tag on it.

Then, an entry level FF that looks very much like the current 5DII except with perhaps a slightly larger sensor, slightly better AF, and improvements in high ISO and DR.....Perhaps with a decrease in build quality (if 6D).  This would likely fit the $2,500-$3,000 price range.

In terms of names, I can see a 3D/5DIII combo or a 5DIII/6D combo. 

As has been said above, the 7DII is easier as it is APS-C.  I hope that it has better ISO performance and better DR.  But I wouldn't be surprised if it is more MP/AF instead.

FPS and AF seem the most obvious ways to differentiate a high megapixel body from the 1DX to me. If the target market is landscape and studio users then are big upgrades to those areas compaired to the 5D mk2 really needed? AF perhaps a bit(more accuracey than speed) but 3 FPS seems like it would be enough for most people.

Personally as an amature landscape shooter who might be in the market for a FF body in the next year the things I'd be after are maximum megapixels that can still keep lower ISO(say 400-800) clean and a fully sealed body that doesnt weigh much more than 800-900g.

EOS Bodies / Re: Does 1DX mean Canon is reshuffling their pro lineup?
« on: October 24, 2011, 07:26:23 AM »
@moreorless : now this is going to make choices really interesting. I can see current 5D2 users wanting to jump to "your" 3D and first-time-FF users taking your 5D3 prediction. I consider this very business oriented and logical

My feeling is that an entry level FF body would really be the way to gain an advanatge, Canon, Nikon and Sony have all seen that high megapixels in a smaller body sells with the 5D mk2 and I'd be supprized if they didnt go after that market this time around. The smarter business move would I'd say be to realise that the strong sales of the 5D mk2 at a lower price point have hilighted theres a market for a $2000ish FF body. If big megapixel bodies are all we see with the lower end FF market this time round there launch prices are likely to be $3000+ which could price many potential buyers out.

That could actually be more important than who gets the very best spec high megapixel body, if say Canon only has 32 MP and lesser AF than Nikon are many current 5D mk2 users going to switch? probabley not with the investment in lenses. The more important battleground would be getting users locked into a system and if Canon are the only people with an entry level body thats a definate advanatge to them since crop upgrades cannot be depended on with many users having to sell EF-S/DX lenses anyway.

EOS Bodies / Re: Does 1DX mean Canon is reshuffling their pro lineup?
« on: October 24, 2011, 03:11:01 AM »
I did say 'effectively' medium format...I was thinking more about pixel count rather than full medium format. I know pixel count doesn't in any way define medium format...but if Canon are to produce a Camera that competes for the next three years in the studio...it would seem to me that it would have to be in the 40 to 50 MP range...similar pixel counts to some of the leaf backs and Pentax 645D. But I also realise that this asks the question - are the current optics capable of supporting that sort of resolution? I don't believe that they are.

Could Canon cope with producing a new lens mount alongside the EF? Probably not at the moment. But I cannot believe that Canon are going to give up the prestige of producing a large pixel count camera to their rivals. Both Nikon and Sony are ahead in the raw numbers game...I'm sure Canon will respond in kind.

It has often been rumoured that Canon believe there more recent lenses can handle 40-50 MP and there performance on crop bodies does seem to suggest they've got a good deal more to offer on FF beyond 21 MP.

The real unknown to me seems likely to be whether were talking about one new 5D sized FF body or two, Personally I think that with the 1DX specs/price two has become much more likely since a single body would have to cover alot of ground between amatures moving up to FF to 1Ds users moving down for more megapixels.

Something like...

3D - 30-40 megapixels, 7D AF, 3-4 FPS, 100% viewfinder, pro build/sealing. - $3500-4000

5D mk3 - 18 megapixels, 7D AF, 5-6 FPS, less than 100% viewfinder, current build - $2000-2500

EOS Bodies / Re: What's Next?
« on: October 24, 2011, 01:26:32 AM »
I don't think the 5D3 will be split into two different models.

Splitting it up increases the risk of both models where consumers may not be satisfied with both and even if they are satisfied with one of the models, there can be a big loss financially on the second if it doesn't satisfy the market. It also creates confusion in market, which model would be suitable. Eg. Someone who primarily wants photo use but also needs good video usage, which one would they buy if the 5D series is split up.

Canon make their money on a model that repeatedly gets purchased time and time again over its life span. Eg. 5D2 has been one of the best selling cameras of all time. Canon have had this camera on the production line time and time again.

I think Canon should make their necessary changes such as MP increase, ST-E2 transmitter, AF focus points, Digic 5+, 3.2" clear view II screen, increased weather sealing etc.

With these changes, the 5D3 will sell itself.

The problem is though your potentially looking at a much more expensive camera with those changes, ok for the higher end of the market such as former 1Ds users but it wouldnt cater to the market the 5D mk2 selling at around $2000 has tapped into.

Spilting lines based on features might not be ideal but if Canon have say a high MP 3D with those specs in the $3500 range and a lower end 5D mk3 with say the 18 MP sensor and maybe improved AF for around $2000 then they potentially tap into both those markets. They could also open up a market for users upgrading though the lines which I'd guess at the moment is largely confined to people buying used 5D mk1's first.

I agree...  with all the cropped bodies having the same sensor, it seems crazy to me for them to announce a xxxD (as seems to be the annual trend, although that might change), before a 70D or 7Dmkii. I would guess a lot of new bodies to stabalise the whole lineup in the next 12-18 months!

One possible direction they could take is introducing the new processor into the D650 next spring while keeping everything else the same then market it on high FPS.

EOS Bodies / Re: Canon 5D X
« on: October 23, 2011, 04:29:05 PM »
why would they change the name at this stage?

The 5D range has become synonymous with ground breaking camera specs, a marketing person would tell you it would be madness to change the naming policy of a brand. The X for the 1 series solved loads of issues, it's not an "s" variant and it's not a plain mk"*" variant.

I believe the 5D series will become Canon's new megapixel beast instead of the 1Ds range. Why not? It not only killed the 1Ds3, but brought Canon bucket loads of dosh and reputation that money really couldn't buy.

One arguement for a change could be if Canon produce two 5D sized FF bodies, one high megapixel and one entry level. In that situation I'd say it might make more sense to call the high megapixel body the 3D and the entry level the 5D mk3 rather than introducing the 6D, its what happened in the crop makret with the 60D and 7D afterall.

That way the entry level body gains from the 5D's good rep and the 3D looks more attractive to former 1Ds users rather than having them feel they've been forced into a dowgrade.

EOS Bodies / Re: Does 1DX mean Canon is reshuffling their pro lineup?
« on: October 23, 2011, 04:13:25 PM »
While I can see Canon not wanting to compete against themselves, they still have to compete against Nikon, and increasingly Sony...

I don't agree, in terms of this discussion.  The competition between Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. really takes place in the entry-level dSLR space (and of course, the P&S space).  The number of people who's first dSLR is a FF body is an insignificant fraction of the market. So, by the time someone buys a FF body, they have brand familiarity and likely a set of lenses - Canon will have the data to support that (that's why the online product registration collects info on other products already owned).  The reality is that very, very few people switch brands (despite the frequent threats to do so, which are mostly empty).  Sure, there are high profile 'defections' where Canon or Nikon provides incentives, but for the majority, if you have a lens or two there's too much inertia to change brands.

Regarding updating the AF, history has shown there's no need. First off, Nikon's AF isn't necessarily 'kick-ass'.  Just like more MP doesn't automatically make a sensor better, more AF points don't automatically make for better AF. Nikon's systems have never had the high-precision points that Canon offers, for example. More importantly, Canon can look back at sales records. The 40D, 50D, and 60D use the same AF.  The 5DII was a huge success, using the same AF as the 5D but with more MP. So who's to say a 5DIII with even more MP and still the same AF won't sell, especially stacked up against a 1D X with less MP? 

I know it's not a popular opinion, but don't be surprised to see the 5D's AF reused on the 5DIII, or if not that, a token improvement.  If they give it a high MP sensor, compared to the 1D X, they've got to not give it something else.  Weak AF, only one Digic5+ so the frame rate drops lower that the Rebel line, some kind of handicap will be there. Pick your poison...

You also have to consider price as a factor aswell i'd say, the 5D mk2's sucess was partly based on the relatively low cost while the Nikon D800 is rumoured to ge in the $4000 range. If the old AF system or a marginal improvement helps keep the 5d mk3 lower than that it could well increase the market signifcantly..

I'd say that if the 1Ds line is over the most pressing upgrades would be a 100% OVF and higher quality build. Both studio and landscape 1Ds users would I'd guess want the former with landscape users likely wanting the latter aswell.

To me the 1DX becoming the flagship seems like it might be more an acknowledgement of the strenghts and weaknesses of the EF/FF format. As a sports/jurno camera the 1DX can claim to be the very best tool for the job with its FPS/ISO/AF where as a 1Ds Mk4's sensor would be unlikely to beat medium format offerings. Its alot easier to sell something at a prenium when your at the top of the market afterall, espeically with the 645D pushing below £9K.

EOS Bodies / Re: Feedback on 1D X from 1-series users?
« on: October 23, 2011, 03:49:22 PM »
As a 1DSIII owner and landscape photographer I am still looking for Canon to give us at least the equivelent of the Lieca S2 as the replacement for the 1DSIII! The 1D X will be a great camera for the PJs and probably the wedding photographers also. If i was starting from scratch, with no cameras at all I would probably buy the 1D X although it is not really the camera I would prefer. (Hassys cost too much) Canon has the technology to give us 50/60 MP at 16 bit @ 1 FPS which is what the landscape shooter wants and needs, and I beleive that the EOS mount will at least support the S2 format and still allow us the use of existing lenses. Canon knows about the PJ market but I don't think they realize how many landscapers would jump on a 10K MF camera. Pentax is an Iffy company, and Minolta has disappeared from the MF scene.

EOS/EF lenses would work on a sensor the size of the S2?

My guess would be the part of the reason for the 1Ds being phased out would be that with the 645D around they want to maxmise the size/cost advanatges of a FF high megapixel camera.

EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 7D mrk. II
« on: October 23, 2011, 01:13:41 PM »
I don't think Mark II will have 45AF from (or improved) the previous 1D. More like a highly improved 19AF system, they still need to milk as much money as possible like all other companies.

18MP sounds reasonable, perhaps 21, definitely APS-C. I mean why would they switch the sensor already in the second version.

8 - 10fps is just amazing, I couldn't ask for more in this price range. Its ISO performance is fine at 3200, especially at concerts and sports, though sometimes it's a bit too noisy. One stop improvement would be really nice!

I don't think Canon will announce any speed monster before Olympics, 1DX should have its glory for a long time.

Photokina would be the best place to announce it, along with a 650D and 5D Mark II some time before that.

I wouldnt be that supprized to see the 7D inherit the 1D mk4's AF system and generally shift up in the market a bit, seems like it could solve a few problems.

Offer an alternative to the 1DX for 1D users who can't afford it and/or want a crop factor.

Keep it above the 5D mk3/3D/6D in terms fo AF if any of them inherits its old AF system.

Open up more of a market for the 70D which could get its old  xxD build quality back if AF became a larger differentiator between it and the 7D.

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