September 30, 2016, 11:17:29 AM

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EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist
« Last post by unfocused on Today at 11:12:59 AM »
...Where people sometimes seem to struggle is when they compare what they consider (correctly or incorrectly) as direct competitors between Canon and other brands, and they believe that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence...

...I share the feeling that Canon at the moment is giving rather conservative specs to their products vs. competition and that they might be a little bit in complacency mode. Future sales numbers will be able to tell if the feeling was right or wrong.

Canon and Nikon are both conservative companies. That's just the nature of market leaders. The consequences to Canon or Nikon for implementing half-baked technological improvements are much greater than for a company like Sony, which does not have a large installed user base or the century-long reputation to maintain.

What is consistent about Canon (and what keeps so many of their customers loyal) is that the company consistently underpromises and overdelivers. Invariably, when a new major release is announced, you will see complaints about how Canon did not include this or that feature that competitors include in their comparable models. That is also, invariably, followed by users who, once they actually get the camera in their hands and start using it, raving about how great the camera is and how much better it performs than the spec sheet might indicate.

That usually leads to the camera dominating its market segment. The best case in point is the 6D, which was widely panned as being significantly under-spec'd in comparison to the competing Nikon model. Yet, people who bought the 6D consistently rave about how well the camera performs and what sales figure are available seem to indicate that it may be the best selling full frame camera ever.

That's why so many of us have concluded that those who insist Canon is somehow "behind" in the market don't really understand what is going on in the market. Canon is conservative, but certainly not complacent. If you want the longest spec sheet of features, Canon and Nikon are not the cameras for you. If you want a tool that you can depend on day in and day out for years, there are really only two choices.
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this lens was announced at 1399$ but amazon germany have a preorder price of 1999€  >:(
WTH?

Everything from everyone seems really inflated outside of the United States market - but that is really, really bad.  I doubt that will be the street price.  What does the Sigma Sport go for there?  You can guarantee the Tamron will undercut it.

You are very close with your estimate ;)
The Sigma Sport goes for around 1500€, while the new Tamron seems to start at around 1600€
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this lens was announced at 1399$ but amazon germany have a preorder price of 1999€  >:(
WTH?

I think that's just because the lens is not yet available. Another retailer @amazon.de is offering it for  roughly 1700€. And the Nikon version is offered by Amazon for 1599€. Incidentally, that's the same prize AC-Foto wants for the Canon version ;)

https://www.ac-foto.com/onlineshop/v3/?s=detail&main=9237

Off all my camera stuff, I only bought one lens at amazon, and that was during the cyber week, so it was really cheap. But usually the prize difference is so little, if not totally non-existent, between amazon and other shops that I prefer to buy either locally or at dedicated camera online stores (AC-foto, Calumet, Foto-Koch, etc.). IMHO, they offer better service for camera gear than amazon, and if I buy a 2000€ lens that's worth more for me than a little prize difference.

BUT, you are right, considering the prizes in general we pay in Germany/Europe, for the camera gear. It's usually several hundreds € more than the prize is in US$!! Even if you take the tax of 19% into account, it's still a lot more.
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there any updates on this one yet?
I think they started shipping already, so just wondering when we'll see any reviews!!

Not sure if this has been posted -- digitalrev has done a hands-on review:
http://www.digitalrev.com/article/tamron-sp-150-600mm-f-5-6-3-di-vc-usd-g2-review
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I can confirm that it does NOT overwrite individual AFMA settings on the 6D.  I did the firmware update and checked lenses afterward.
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EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist
« Last post by romanr74 on Today at 10:51:46 AM »
I think when people complain about 'not being allowed to express', what they really mean is they don't want their statements of opinion refuted by facts and data.

If it is relevant/meaningful facts there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever...

Oh, really?

Suppose someone stated that a particular entry-level camera model was a failure, and that a competitor's roughly similar model was a much more compelling offering for dSLR buyers.  Then, suppose there were data showing the relative sales of the two models, indicating that the model which was supposedly a 'failure' was, in fact, much more popular with camera buyers – and thus refuting the statement that it was less compelling for buyers. 

Do you believe those data would be relevant or meaningful? 

I'll start with the very low end failure:

-Canon's cheapest DSLR is very poorly featured compared to Nikon's and Sony's and practically everything else.

It's the 1300D. Nikon makes a MUCH more compelling camera to draw the first SLR buyer. Their Nikon D3400 has:

What do you have to add?

I'll add that Nikon's 'MUCH more compelling camera' costs $150 more right now on Amazon (body + 18-55), that's 30% more expensive.  That is probably one of the reasons the D3400 which you call 'MUCH more compelling' is #81 in Amazon's DSLR sales ranking, while the T6 [aka 1300D] which you call a 'poorly featured failure' is #20 on that list.  So it would seem that from the perspective of both buyers and Canon, the T6 is rather successful.

the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___...

If you think sales figures are relevant to a discussion of which camera model is more compelling to buyers, then why would you respond as you did?  Your response, "...the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___..." is clearly not aligned with your statement that, "If it is relevant/meaningful facts there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever..."  So perhaps the problem is exactly what I've previously suggested – you have a serious defecit in metacognition.

If you don't think sales figures are relevant to a discussion of which camera model is more compelling to buyers...well, metacognition deficits are among the least of worries for a low grade moron.

Neuro, I was admittedly an asshole with you on this one because to my mind you too often and too fast refer to sales numbers, and I believe that overall business decisions are more relevant to sales numbers than pure product decisions/specs. So in my opinion this is partly meaningfull/relevant but cleary not sufficient. And you're clearly not a saint neither when it comes to communication stile...

At some point in time I hope you will find back to a somewhat cultivated discussion pattern (as I believe I did quite a few posts ago).
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B&H Photo now has limited stock of the brand new Tamron 150-600mm f/5-6.3 VC G2 lens.

PRODUCT HIGHLIGHTS

  • Canon EF-Mount Lens/Full-Frame Format
  • Aperture Range: f/5 to f/40
  • Three Low Dispersion Glass Elements
  • eBAND, BBAR, and Fluorine Coatings
  • Ultrasonic Silent Drive Autofocus Motor
  • VC Image Stabilization
  • FLEX ZOOM LOCK, Zoom Lock Switch
  • Moisture-Resistant Construction
  • Removable Arca-Type Tripod Mount
  • Compatible with TAP-in Console

Tamron SP 150-600mm f/5-6.3 Di VC USD G2 $1399 at B&H Photo

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EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist
« Last post by romanr74 on Today at 10:43:05 AM »


I only challenge if market share (or other sales numbers) are the perfect indicator for the validity of current product decisions (which will reflect in future sales numbers). They are obviously a very strong indicator that business decisions (product being one component of them) were right in the past.

I totally agree with that and your previous post that relying on past success can lead to complacency and it is a trap that a lot of big corporations fall into time and again. But I don't think anyone has quoted sales figures to justify the current design but in response (as I said) to claims Canon do not know what they are doing.

I will adapt a discussion I have had with colleagues in the past to make it relevant to photography: They could pack the 5DIV with all the technology and the best sensor, all the best video and all the best AF systems, touch swivelly screen - they could make it so that the only between 5D4 and 1DX is the more durable build. At $3,500  it would probably slay the market and although unit profit wold be reduced the high volume would overcome it.
They could also make a lower end (a 7D variant if you will) with all that stuff but APS-C instead of full frame.
Then make a plastic-bodied version at $300 as a loss leader.

All makes sense, right?
Odd that no company on earth does that with their product lines. I wonder why. If I want to buy a photocopier that simply does 20 pages per minute instead of 8 I can't - the faster one comes with all sorts of add-ons that they could also add into their lower end models. Ditto for washing machines, cars and anything else.

Canon concentrates on AF performance and less on other things. Sony concentrate more on video and cross-platform compatability and their AF is not as good. Buy whichever suits best.

We agree that the 5dmkiv secenario you describe doesn't make sense. Product differentiation is a relevant factor in the approach to market to maximize sales and earnings. Market segmentation is a relevant factor to achieve the same target. You have different customers out there with different budgets and you want to address as many of these as possible. You have customers out there you're able to sell more than one product at the time if they are reasonably differentiated. All good, all economically useful...

Where people sometimes seem to struggle is when they compare what they consider (correctly or incorrectly) as direct competitors between Canon and other brands, and they believe that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. I chose that formulation on purpose to accomodate for the fact that the subjective impression might be wrong. Yet I share the feeling that Canon at the moment is giving rather conservative specs to their products vs. competition and that they might be a little bit in complacency mode. Future sales numbers will be able to tell if the feeling was right or wrong.
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EOS Bodies / Re: EOS 5D Mark IV - the crippled generalist
« Last post by neuroanatomist on Today at 10:35:25 AM »
I think when people complain about 'not being allowed to express', what they really mean is they don't want their statements of opinion refuted by facts and data.

If it is relevant/meaningful facts there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever...

Oh, really?

Suppose someone stated that a particular entry-level camera model was a failure, and that a competitor's roughly similar model was a much more compelling offering for dSLR buyers.  Then, suppose there were data showing the relative sales of the two models, indicating that the model which was supposedly a 'failure' was, in fact, much more popular with camera buyers – and thus refuting the statement that it was less compelling for buyers. 

Do you believe those data would be relevant or meaningful? 

I'll start with the very low end failure:

-Canon's cheapest DSLR is very poorly featured compared to Nikon's and Sony's and practically everything else.

It's the 1300D. Nikon makes a MUCH more compelling camera to draw the first SLR buyer. Their Nikon D3400 has:

What do you have to add?

I'll add that Nikon's 'MUCH more compelling camera' costs $150 more right now on Amazon (body + 18-55), that's 30% more expensive.  That is probably one of the reasons the D3400 which you call 'MUCH more compelling' is #81 in Amazon's DSLR sales ranking, while the T6 [aka 1300D] which you call a 'poorly featured failure' is #20 on that list.  So it would seem that from the perspective of both buyers and Canon, the T6 is rather successful.

the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___...

If you think sales figures are relevant to a discussion of which camera model is more compelling to buyers, then why would you respond as you did?  Your response, "...the usual fanboy sales numbers bullS___..." is clearly not aligned with your statement that, "If it is relevant/meaningful facts there is nothing wrong with that whatsoever..."  So perhaps the problem is exactly what I've previously suggested – you have a serious defecit in metacognition.

If you don't think sales figures are relevant to a discussion of which camera model is more compelling to buyers...well, metacognition deficits are among the least of worries for a low grade moron. 
10
this lens was announced at 1399$ but amazon germany have a preorder price of 1999€  >:(
WTH?

Everything from everyone seems really inflated outside of the United States market - but that is really, really bad.  I doubt that will be the street price.  What does the Sigma Sport go for there?  You can guarantee the Tamron will undercut it.
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